Heather Clark of Christian News Network carefully lays out the details of a recent uproar among evangelicals over a dialog between Christian apologist James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and Yasir Qadhi, Dean of Academic Affairs at the Al-Maghrib Institute. The event, called “Christians and Muslims: Agreements and Differences,” was held at Grace Bible Church on Jan. 24. On his Facebook page Dr. White stated that he is thankful that Heather Clark “actually quoted from the dialogues, fairly, evenly, and then gave extensive quotes from what I’ve written since then.” See his entire statement below under “Related.”
A well-known Reformed apologist, elder and professional debater is drawing concerns after presenting, and continuing to defend, an interfaith dialogue event at a Mississippi church with a Muslim imam, which he says was meant to help Christians and Muslims engage in conversation and to “get along without compromise.”
Some objectors, while noting that they support dialoguing with and evangelizing Muslims, do not believe that it was proper to give an unconverted Muslim any type of platform during a special event hosted at a church, and feel that many of the imam’s statements should not have gone unchallenged.
“I’m totally in favor of having an accurate view of what they believe,” Andy Woods, the senior pastor of Sugar Land Bible Church in Texas and president of Chafer Theological Seminary in New Mexico, told Christian News Network. “Working out our differences and sitting down and making sure we understand each other is one thing, but giving someone a platform at a church is a different matter.”
THE EVENT
James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, and Dr. Yasir Qadhi, the Dean of Academic Affairs at the Al-Maghrib Institute, appeared at Grace Bible Church in Olive Branch, Mississippi on Jan. 24 for an unmoderated interfaith discussion called “Christians and Muslims: Agreements and Differences.”
The ticketed Tuesday night event was recorded and posted to YouTube.
“I think the greatest barrier for Christians in reaching out to the Muslim people is fear,” White explained during the discussion. “We have fear in our hearts. It’s based upon ignorance. It’s based upon other things. That’s one of the reasons I wanted to do this.”
“What would it mean if the Muslim people in your neighborhood knew that you loved them, cared about them and prayed for them, and were willing to do anything for them?” he asked. “It would change everything. But unfortunately, that’s not generally how they view us.”
Qadhi said that he believes some Christians view Muslims with mistrust and hatred, and he doesn’t think that it should be that way. He stated that he desires for Christians and Muslims to treat each other with mutual compassion while acknowledging their disagreements.
At the beginning of the event, White said that Qadhi has been a “primary influence” in his studies on the Islamic religion and shared that he “sense[d] in him such a kindred spirit on the other side of the chasm that divides us in regard to our theology and our beliefs.”
He disclosed that he has listened to Qadhi’s material in seeking to understand Islamic beliefs, and at one point, invited Qadhi to critique his presentation on Islam to ensure it accurately represents the Muslim religion.
While also noting that the two disagree on matters of faith, White stressed that the event was not a debate, but rather a dialogue. Therefore, the two-hour discussion was spent mostly discussing and gaining an understanding of Muslim practices and beliefs, at times being contrasted with the Christian perspective.
Topics included explaining the two sects of Islam, the belief that the Koran is the word of God, and the Muslim view that Jesus was a prophet and not divine, nor was He ever crucified.
“Muslims are looking forward to Jesus’ return because when Jesus comes back, we believe His soldiers and His army will be Muslims,” Qadhi also explained to those gathered. “We also believe—and this is in the Hadith or the Sunna of the prophet—that every true Christian will then recognize that they were incorrect [about] the Trinity and then follow Jesus as well.”
During the second hour of the event, Qadhi outlined that Muslims never judge whether or not someone is bound for Heaven or Hell and that they don’t even speak with certainty about themselves. White noted how Christian belief differs from this point of view.
“From the Christian perspective, the only reason that I can have peace with God or confidence of entering into His presence is because I’m in possession of the righteousness of Jesus Christ given to me,” he explained.
“We don’t view ourselves as a group that is somehow better than anybody else. We believe that a Christian is a person who has fled to God for His mercy and recognize that He (Jesus) is the only one that God has given to where His righteousness is perfect in God’s sight … and that’s why I can have peace with Him,” White said.
“This is one of the fundamental differences. We’ll have to agree to disagree from our perspective,” Qadhi replied. “It’s an element of arrogance to say ‘I am going to Heaven and I’m certain about it.’ Rather [we say], ‘I am very hopeful. I am very optimistic.’”
White also explained during the event that he believes it is permissible to have relationships with Muslims as long as they understand his beliefs and his desire for them to be saved. He said that he prays for Qadhi and that he wants him to bow the knee to Christ, and Qadhi acknowledged that he, conversely, desires for White to embrace Islam.
Qadhi said that even if both sides believe the other is on the path to Hell, Christians and Muslims should still come together despite their differences to fight society’s ills.
“Do we have to make this world a living Hell because of that? That’s the question. Let God judge on Judgment Day,” Qadhi said. “… Can’t we be good neighbors together? Can’t we work together for better schools, to minimize crime, to fight against pornography and drugs, to affirm family values?”
“Why must we hate one another in a civil society where coming together will bring about so much potential good?” he asked. “Why can’t we look at what we have in common even as we understand and appreciate and are honest about our differences?”
The following day, White spoke at the Memphis Islamic Center, where similar dialogue about the Muslim and Christian faiths took place, with White—while complimenting Qadhi’s expertise and influence on his studies—explaining concepts such as the Trinity, original sin and the imputation of righteousness through Christ. Continue reading
Related:
1. James White’s statement on the Christian News Network piece from July 15th on his Facebook timeline (below)
2. Grace Community Church’s response to Brannon Howse on James White’s interfaith dialogue. We’ve included the response for those who’ve been following the story and are aware that when Brannon Howse came out against James White’s interfaith dialogue with Yasir Qadhi, Executive Director of GTY, Phil Johnson, came out in defense of James White, which created a riff between Howse and Johnson that became very public (see Phil Johnson’s response here; Brannon Howse tells his side of the story on Worldview Weekend). So – Brannon wrote a letter to John MacArthur which elicited a response from an elder of the church. (below)
James White’s statement on the Christian News Network piece from July 15th on his timeline:
“This is a pretty good and balanced review. My only question is, why not contact me? It seems others were contacted for comments, but not me. Maybe because the writer already had my responses to almost all of these allegations in various forms? Possible. Anyway, the only things I would have added would have been the ferocity of the denunciations found in Howse and his guests, turning me over to Satan, saying I’m a heretic, etc., and Steve Camp’s accusations of my being a coward, etc. I think the politico-religious nature of much of this criticism (as seen in Howse and Camp) needs to be looked at very, very closely, lest we ignore the fact that some people are trying to make the gospel ‘Merican again.
Oh, one other note: I am soooo thankful that the writer actually quoted from the dialogues, fairly, evenly, and then gave extensive quotes from what I’ve written since then. Also, the article finishes with not only a link to the YouTube video of the first night, but astonishingly, with a time index to the very portion where we speak of what we most want for the other! That was very classy, and very important, for it is the very issue that the non-gospel centered criticisms will continue to miss, and must, by definition.
More from James White on July 15:
“Please let me ask that in the midst of my being “turned over to Satan,” proclaimed a “heretic” and a person who “clearly does not believe in the Word of God,” etc., that in light of what this issue is really all about (adorning the gospel of Jesus Christ and loving those to whom we are called to proclaim the message of salvation) that we respond as best we can, even to outrageous and absurd accusations, with self-control. I would especially like to ask that there be no attacks upon people like Janet Mefferd. I was truly disappointed yesterday, for I felt JM and I had a relationship that lured me into doing a phone interview (those are always dangerous—the person in the studio controls the horizontal and the vertical, which is why I always chuckle when folks say I should call into various programs to take on various people who otherwise would never go one-on-one with me—I know how the media works, and I’ve done radio since I was 16 years of age). I am truly disappointed JM did not ask James Simpson serious, meaningful questions, and I’m even more disappointed that she had an agenda to push with me and she was going to get to it even in the guise of “questions” which were not questions at all. All of that is true. But I ask that we simply pray that instead of more warfare we invest our time in looking for more opportunities to show our love for Christ, for those who need the Good News, and that Christians who have become unduly enamored with political movements and perspectives, at the cost of a radical, life-giving gospel, should come to realize this and change their ways. It is easy to say “Let’s take the high road” but really hard when the accusations are raining down like a monsoon thunderstorm. But we can become distracted in a way that is costly in the long run.
Grace Community Church’s response to Brannon Howse on James White’s interfaith dialogue:
Mr. Howse:
I wanted to send you this email in response to your phone call to Grace Community Church this morning. You should know that Phil Johnson’s public comments on this matter represent the position of the elders of Grace Church. To be clear, that position is most succinctly stated in the following quote:
“We would not sanction a public dialogue with a Muslim Imam, or any other person with an agenda to teach false religion, at Grace Community Church. But neither are we sympathetic to the lynch-mob mentality that seems determined to use a disagreement such as this to discredit years of faithful ministry by Dr. White.”
We would appreciate you not attempting to contact us or involve us further on this matter.
Sincerely,
Chris Hamilton, Elder
Grace Community Church Source
Added 7/18
3. Phil Johnson’s statement regarding those who have called him to repent. 7/16/17
4. Brannon Howse responds to Grace To You 7/18/17
(Editor’s note: The inclusion of this story on our site is one we have hesitated to post on Berean Research, for several reasons. This debate has been raging for over a month now, and it’s ugly. It grieves us greatly to see the division and the outright name-calling and manipulation tactics by some Christians over this issue. The last thing we wanted to do was to be a part of the finger-pointing. We post this story and the related links so that readers can get a grasp of what has happened, but in no way does this mean that we are here to “weigh in,” as several people have demanded we do.
Yes, we have our opinions, and we understand you do as well. Please be respectful in our comments section, and reflect on 2 Timothy 2:22-26 as you post:
So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
(A.S.)
Headline could have been – “James White Wrong Again: But Gets Support Because Of His Past Defence Of Reformed Theology.”
wow, this site is a shart shot mess of puke whizz and vomit spew. know that shat shite poo pee is made up of barf excrement! bye bye
Spam……………..
This could’ve been done purely as a civil excercise, as Jesus and Paul told us to get along with the world, we are in it, but not of it, we must be civil and curteous to all outside. It doesn’t mean we engage in any “cross-religious” activities. And definitely we must evangelise the lost, which includes Muslims.
Q – you could not have possibly said it any better. Anyone who doesn’t see that he is a wolf needs to dig deeper.
Very true Q. White has deflected all criticism back at anyone daring to question his methods. If you do question his method you will be accused by his back slappers of not wanting to reach out to Muslims with the gospel and putting country before Christ or thinking that the Church is a church building along with other ad hominems and straw man. It is “touch not God’s anointed” without putting it that way.
White said in the dialogue that he has a “kindred spirit” with Qadhi and that Qadhi honored the guest with his presence. This is the same Qadhi that called Christians and Jews filthy, the same Qadhi that has ties to the Muslim Brotherhood and who has the same mentor as Osama bin Laden— Shaykh al-Oudah. Qadhi has been praised by Linda Sarsour and appeared in a conference with her earlier this month.
I count no less than 10 ministries (most are Reformed) that have called out White for how he handled this dialogue. White’s biggest cheerleader has Dr. Michael Brown (search his name on this site—he has been pronounced to have discredited himself). White need only admit the possibility of poor judgment and choice of words but he has attacked all critics and dug his heels in promising to do more of the same.
The dialogue was in January but the controversy began a month ago. I have followed it since on twitter, Youtube and radio. If B. Howse turns you off, you can Google or Youtube search the subject if you want other opinions. Try Triablogue blog, Reformed Ministries (Youtube), Megiddo Radio, Janet Mefferd Radio. The debate with Robert Spencer concerning “true Islam” on M. Browns show was particularly interesting.
Thanks for the info rascott247,
He dug his heels in on the doctorate thing and got spanked… I saw what you said about pride, I think you nailed it.
Hey RS, thanks for the post. What if instead of a muslim, it would’ve been a satanist? Would he still have “a kindred spirit?” I don’t know anything about James White so I reserved judgement on his teachings, but it seems to me as you and Q pointed out he’s defensive and tinged with a “I know more than you, do as I say” attitude.
There is NO reason, none, for a Muslim (insert another religion here) and a true follower of Christ to have dialogue regarding religion. Christianity is hated because it’s exclusive and because it judges.
Manny
If you are interested in what this is all about I would direct you to search —A Definitive Look at the James White Yasir Qadhi Controversy by Keith Thompson. I saw the magnitude of what was going to happen as soon as I was made aware of the situation. I refuse to interact with the typical White apologist; they are vicious and will not stay on point. I am happy to discuss the situation with rational people. Again the Robert Spenser James White debate on the nature of true Islam is well worth a listen. You can find it on You tube. Spoiler alert: The real Islamic expert won.
Thank you my friend! I’ll research this.
http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com/2017/06/a-definitive-look-at-james-white-and.html
“A Definitive Look at the James White and Yasir Qadhi Controversy
By Keith Thompson
In January, 2017 Christian apologist James White invited Muslim leader Yasir Qadhi to have an inter-faith dialogue meeting at Grace Church in Memphis, TN. White has come under attack for this event for many reasons including: (1) Allowing Qadhi to justify Islam by lying and misleading Christians with demonstrably incorrect claims all unchallenged; (2) Endorsing Qadhi’s dishonest portrait and promotion of “true” Islam as being peaceful even though it is not, and even though Qadhi has recently endorsed, buddied up with and defended terrorists, and even though Qadhi is a member of numerous terrorist and Muslim Brotherhood front groups (as the Holy Land Foundation Trial proves); (3) Having an inter-faith meeting in a church in front of Christians which is unbiblical; (4) Allying with a wicked leader of a false religion like Qadhi which is unbiblical (e.g. calling Qadhi his “mentor,” saying he has a “kindred spirit” with Qadhi, wanting to unite with Qadhi and Muslims against secularism, saying he is honored by Qadhi’s presence, and “fellowshiping” with Qadhi and Muslims as the event banner advertised, etc). In this article I will explain the reasons why these criticisms of White are valid.
White’s critics include the following Christians and experts in Islam: Keith Thompson of http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com, Sam Shamoun of http://www.Answering-Islam.org, Anthony Rogers of http://www.Answering-Islam.org, Robert Spencer of http://www.JihadWatch.org, David Wood (on White’s denial Islam is inherently violent) of http://www.AnsweringMuslims.com, Paul Flynn of http://www.megiddoradio.com, Pastor Andy Woods of http://www.andywoodsministries.org, Janet Mefferd of http://www.janetmefferd.com Brannon Howse of http://www.worldviewweekend.com, and Usama Dakdok of http://www.thestraightway.com. Even James Simpson of http://www.theamericanthinker.com has critiqued White on this, as has former FBI counter-terrorism expert John Guandolo of http://www.understandingthethreat.com. Other writers and videographers have chimed in as well. At the end of this article some of the relevant critiques of White from these people will be provided. Thousands of Christians viewing the controversy on the side lines have likewise taken a stand against White for his compromising actions.”
I suggest all interested in this controversy visit the page.
Unfortunately Muslims are under the control of Satan also 🙁
Amen, Jim. Unfortunately many “Christian leaders” claim Muslims worship our God, they don’t, Allah, according to Islam has no Son. It denies Christ as the only begotten Son of The Father. That in itself is demonic.
People are being put to sleep! They forget Islam hates true Christianity, at worst we are infidels to be slaughtered where we stand, at best we are to be perpetual slaves. Don’t forget how many Christian brothers and sisters are being slaughtered in the Middle East today! When was the last time real Christians went on a rampage to kill “infidels?” Never. No, on the contrary, our Lord was killed so many can be saved. I hope Mr.White has the decency to remember and acknowledge those being beheaded for standing up for Jesus Christ today. Maybe he should invite Arab Christian survivors to say their testimony in front of Mr.Qadhi.
One more thing, ironically, were are to “save” unbelievers not “slaughter” them! What a contrast! White should be ashamed. Islam denies Christ, he wants to hold hands with them!
Is there any examples in the bible of Christ embracing false religions and their leaders and saying nothing? Of course not. James White obviously either doesn’t have a real good grasp on what Islam teaches, or he is part of the move of ecumenism to tie all religions together. I suspect it may be the latter.
Lyn, I so agree with you. The bible says many will turn away from the faith in these last days, people are having a hard time with this. They’re shocked that so called apologists and stalwarts of the faith can fall so hard and fast! Thanks to Rascot I’ve been doing some hard research.
If the esteemed Dr. Michael Brown is the lone wolf defending White, that indicates for a certainty what he did was improper. I’m astounded even at the title – I mean, how can one even suggest there are any “agreements” between Christians and Muslims…or any other false religion?! Its not as if they can be reconciled. They’re completely different. Christianity is exclusive. Period. You either accept its full and complete truth or you don’t. And your rejection of it only proves you’re a goat. And the church is for the assembly of believers to learn the doctrines of Christ, not to be profaned by an anti-christ, as if there’s any common ground. If God chooses to save the imam, He will bring him into the church Himself. Shame on James White!
Brown is not alone but was early and prominent in White’s defense. I agree shame on White for the dialogue but his defense is even more shameful—full of pride.
Very well said. The Muslims have Mr. white EXACTLY where they want him. I think the phrase “useful idiot” applies to anyone who cozies up to false religions. I thought mr. White had more brains then this; obviously his intellect is getting the better of him.
“I mean, how can one even suggest there are any “agreements” between Christians and Muslims”
Uhm, because there are?
You need to find James White’s own words on this matter. It is disingenuous and hypocritical of us to level accusations at muslims when we ourselves teach the same things in some cases. It’s called “intellectual dishonesty” and it is a form of LYING.
It’s quick and easy to say “that muslim called us filthy” and get enraged. Yet, that is exactly what we ourselves say not just of muslims, but of EVERY man that has not bowed the knee to the lordship of Jesus Christ.
Meanwhile, muslims – at least the one’s who aren’t stupid – are quick to point out the hypocrisy of Christianity based on those very misguided statements.
We are hurting our own witness before the nations by refusing to treat people fairly, and justly. And condemning the man for his islam while promoting our Christianity, when we both agree that idolatry is evil before God is a topic addressed by Jesus Christ himself: “First remove the log from your own eye, then you will be able to help remove the splinter from another man’s eye”.
Kirby, please be specific as to what agreements there are between muslims and Christians. If you say that we ‘worship the same god’ then it is you that is the liar for that is impossible. They hate the Lord Jesus Christ, do not recognize Him as the Son of God, they discount His crucifixion and especially His resurrection. 1 John 4:15; 5:12.
Actually, it is quite easy and justified to call a muslim filthy, the same holds true for all who refuse to bow their knees to the Lord Jesus Christ, that’s what God calls them—look it up for yourself.
If idolatry is ‘evil’ to a muslim then why do they worship their own idol? By saying their god is not an idol is the same as saying that muslims and Christians worship the same “god”.
Rather than point to the hypocrisy of idol worshipping muslims, you turn on the ones you call “Christian” and want people to believe you are their brother. Yet you are more interested in defending White, an antichrist sympathizer, and the hotbed of antichrists the world over, islam. You do not exalt Christ nor defend the faith. Why? You accuse Christians of being hypocrites when they do defend the faith in an effort to silence them. Why? Next, you try to lay a guilt trip on believers by quoting the Lord Jesus, but that won’t work either. Why?
Shortly after 9/11 the ‘affirmative action program’ for muslims kicked in and they are now the most protected and revered terrorist group in the world—and you have come to their aid. Why? Do you know the definition of the word traitor?
Having been in this battle on another blog for over two weeks, there is a lot more info to be had. It’s good to see such a huge controversy over the unbiblical activities of James White, the “debates” are not an evangelistic tool as espoused by JW but a forum for the lies of the wicked one and his response to his critics is purely ego driven with zero Scriptural support. “For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized [made manifest] among you.” The Dividing Line is being drawn afresh and James White is on the wrong side—again! White continually brushes off any and all Scripture that comes his way from those who would try to help him, cementing his rebellious attitude towards God’s people and the Lord Himself. It’s time for White to choose: James White or Jesus Christ. If White refuses to repent, then may his mouth be shut until he does—Titus 1:10 & 11.
Darrel
You must have read White’s unusual take on 2 John 7-11 where he said it did not apply to Islam since they don’t claim to be Christians. The scripture always backs White because most of us are too stupid to understand what it means. That’s the impression I get.
I think your impression is quit correct. JW has put himself above Scripture on every level. His credibility is down the drain.
Darrel, I agree that Scripture backs Dr. White as he’s the one telling us what it means. Sadly, we can see from the rest of Scripture that God intends for His people to not have close personal relationships with unbelievers. God told Moses not to let their sons take wives from the pagan nations around them and vice versa as they would learn the way of the pagans and stop worshiping God.
But he (White) is right. The “deceivers” gone out into the world, are people CLAIMING TO BE MINSISTERS OF THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST!
That’s why they are ***DECEIVERS***.
Muslims are not “deceivers”. They are straight up godless enemies of Christ, soon to be burned in the fires of hell. They are not deceivers because they are not trying to convince you that they are Christians.
But we DO still have a mandate from the Lord to save as many as we can. And we won’t help that by lying, deception, and misrepresentation of our own.
So, Kirby, “muslims are not deceivers” yet their own (un)holy book not only sanctions lying, but demands it. “They are not deceivers because they are not trying to convince you that they are Christians.” Yet they are deceivers because they claim to be a non-violent, loving religion whereas the facts of their entire history scream the exact opposite. Where ever they are ‘in charge’ heads begin to roll—literally. Surely you know this so why do seek to protect them like James White?
“But we do have a mandate from the Lord to save as many as we can.” How many have you “saved” Kirby? There is no such “mandate” as you have declared. We do have a command to “preach the Gospel to every creature” Mark 16:15. Preaching the Gospel is the believer’s responsibility, the actual saving of a soul rests completely and only in the hands of the Lord. White claims to be a “minister of the Gospel” but has done more advance islam than the Lord Jesus whom he claims to love and serve. Your defense of a man (White) that is in league with the antichrist is rancid fruit, not birthed of the Spirit of God. “We shall know them by their fruits” So one simple question: Did Jesus Christ come in the flesh? Yes, or no. Silence =No.
My issue is how smitten with Islam Dr. White appears to be both in this dialogue and his podcast over the past 2 years. While I expect Dr. White to be courteous and polite, I was shocked at how fawning he was towards Dr. Qadhi to the point of asking him to critique a video he did on Islam and asking him to make a video for Christians about Islam. When Dr. White said he and Dr. Qadhi had a kindred spirit and later called him his mentor in the hadith, it stuck me that Dr. White is going to convert to Islam. I can’t get anyone to explain to me why a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ need to take a false teacher as his mentor in pagan writings. Nor has anyone provided me with Scriptures showing where God or Jesus told the prophets or apostles to go learn as much about the pagan religion they’re dealing with in order to be more effective in their ministry. What I see in the Old Testament is God telling Moses that the children of Israel aren’t to take pagan wives for their sons nor give their daughter to pagan men lest their children learn the way of the pagan, and turn away from serving God. I also see in the New Testament where we aren’t to be unequally yoked together with unbelievers which is why Dr. White having Dr. Qadhi as his mentor strikes me as troubling as it’s very difficult to have a close relationship [such as your mentor] when your worldviews are so radically different. Something is very wrong with Dr. White, and I think he’s being sucked into the whirlpool called Islam…
Dr. White isn’t now and has never been a Christian or a bible believer. He is a pretender and Bible destroyer. I have never heard him preaching the gospel. We are now seeing what he has been hiding. Satan plants his people all over Christendom in order to gain the trust of the masses with lofty “scholarship” and pleasant manners. We love sharp, articulate Bible scholars don’t we? Especially those who trash orthodoxy with science falsely so called as Paul said.
The initial “tell” with White was the teeny tiny triquetra hidden on an otherwise blank page in his first book. Now why would he slip a small pagan witchcraft symbol into one of his books? That is how these people communicate with each other in case there is any doubt about who he serves.
Sola
I can’t say that I know whether White has ever believed the gospel but what is clear to me is that he is above reproach and thinks he holds the key to not only interpreting scripture but deciding what parts belong and what parts are forgeries. And his Muslim friends use his words to attack the Bible.
Agreed, Amy. Further, I’d say that if you’ve never heard Dr. White preach the gospel, then you haven’t listened to much of his preaching.
I disagree with several of his doctrinal stands, and I’ve taken issue with his behavior on several occasions, but what’s being said in this section is ridiculous and only demonstrates how this whole thing has ceased to be about what actually happened; that’s not reflecting well on anyone.
I’m basing it on the triquetra and the fact that all he does is argue over the Bible vs. sharing about how the blood of Christ washes away our sins. His embrace of a false religion – Islam, with no concern for the fact that they are unsaved and will burn in hell for eternity, tells me a great deal about what he thinks about the cross. It’s funny – people always claim that Bethel preaches the gospel but without any evidence. Well of course they do! But neither they nor White care about such things.
Many people far smarter than I who have raised issues with White in the past, point to the fact that he never, ever shares the actual gospel (the life, death and resurrection for our sin) and instead spends his time attacking the KJV with silly, false “scholarly” arguments such as his tortured destruction of Titus 2:13.
The Bible says we will know a tree by its fruits. I see the fruits so I can know the tree.
The fruits point to the type of tree and I am glad to point it out publicly. As Romans 16:17-18 says, only in the KJV I will note, we are to MARK false teachers publicly in order to protect the flock.
Amy, Is it your opinion that it’s ok to observe one’s “fruit” but not ok to draw the proper conclusion associated with such observations?
Thank you for speaking up Jean. For years White has attacked former Muslims who have become Christians (and other Christians as well) in defense of Islamists. He is smitten. It’s as if he is asking us to evangelize Muslims while at the same time telling us it’s his turf because we mere Christians don’t know how to talk to Muslims. It’s his way or please don’t try! This is pride!
James White doesn’t have a legit doctorate… Shouldn’t call him Dr.
Several years back I listened to JW on a somewhat regular basis. [You are right, Sola, I’ve never heard him preach the Gospel either.] The last ‘debate’ I heard was where JW either refused or did not have the ability to refute the imam de jour who said that Jesus Christ never claimed to be the Son of God. He stumbled all over himself to find a logical response, but NEVER referred to Scripture. Chalk up another one in the ‘deceit column’ for White. Yet JW wants everyone to think that he is a man of God, lead by the Spirit of God. Would the Holy Spirit leave any believer speechless in the face of such a question that strikes to the heart of the Character and veracity of the Lord Jesus? 1 John 4:1-6 tells us. “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of Antichrist…” The confession must be a positive one—“Yes, Jesus Christ did indeed come in the flesh.” Although not specifically stated in this passage, the implication is that every aspect of Christ, every Character trait (most especially that He is the Son of God) must be part of the ‘confession’ or else it is invalid. Obviously, a “No” answer automatically casts the responder as an antichrist, but so does ambivalence, so does silence, so does skirting the question, because these answers are not the only valid and acceptable response; they are not 100% positive. A real Christian would leap at the opportunity to exalt His Lord by affirming Christ as the Son of God. The fakers would look for any ‘out’ they could find so as not to expose themselves as the frauds that they are. And, yes, this means that James White is a fraud.
Sola, your boldness is rare and much appreciated. May it please the Lord to embolden others to speak the truth and stand against wicked men who do not love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity—1 Cor.16:22—who are accursed.
Thanks Darrel. I greatly appreciate it. As we saw in Galatians 2, when Paul took on Peter publicly, neither I nor JW matters. What matters is the truth of Jesus Christ and the gospel that cost him and the Father so much. I am glad to be hated, rejected or whatever if perhaps even one person wakes up to the fact that they aren’t saved or are heading towards apostasy. As Paul said so eloquently, may God be true…and every man a liar. Peace and truth.
But in Galatians , Peter explained to Paul that he had been in over 160 debates world wide and that nobody was capable of reaching out to the Jews as he and…wait that didn’t happen in Galatians 2… what I am thinking of.. .something current…it will come to me.
Fair enough Amy. I ask two questions (and you don’t have to answer). Are the concerns over White valid or made of whole cloth? Did the finger need to be pointed and has the reaction to the finger pointing been balanced or hysterical?
Dr. Whites view that we shouldn’t fear Muslims baffled me. As a Christian, go and try to live in any Muslim country. In many countries, Christians are being horrifically tortured, raped and slaughtered daily, and at best being treated as sub-humans. In America – Muslims are attempting to give Sharia Law an ever-increasing presence. In many European countries – Sharia Law has a strong foothold. Ever heard of sleeper cells or no go zones where is it dangerous to non-Muslims to enter. Possibly in the near future, that nice neighbor may turn on you in a nanosecond. Maybe we should also dialog with Wiccans, and Satanists, and secular humanists and a host of other religions at our churches. At least many of these are not actively trying to kill us (at least not yet). The American spineless feminists cower to Muslims even though their treatment of women is evil on steroids. Islam has created a deep fear in non-Muslims.
On the other hand, I don’t see Christians killing Muslims except in self-defense or war situations (with very rare exceptions). Ask the Muslims you dialog with what they think of Israel and the Jewish people. Ask, them if America is the great Satan. Dr. White, get your head out of the sand. Where does this propensity in recent years by many, to make nicey with evil come from. While we should love and pray for Muslims as well as all people, and try to reach them with the true Gospel, don’t check your brains at the door. You may be just a pawn being used to spread anti-Christian evil. Hold fast to the Gospel and not compromise your faith just to get along.
I am afraid that, just like the progressive gay acceptance in the church, that these platforms for anti-Christian entities only strengthens, promotes and endorses that which grieves God even if the intentions are good. While this naivety may give the appearance of being appealing, caring, and politically correct; it is the perfect Trojan horse weapon for Anti-Christian warfare.
Joel
The subject of Muslims in America fearing Christians (which White feels is valid) was asked of White in his interview with Janet Mefferd. Look it up…well worth the listen.
PS In White’s theology the Church is Israel, and the kingdom is present. No room for Israel as a nation.
RS, White believes in replacement theology???!! Wow!!!!! My friend that’s NAR territory! Kingdom Now!
White will not discuss eschatology often. He has very little interest. However he has pointed to the writings of a theologian who he says he lines up well with. He is amillennial meaning there really is no literal kingdom but a spiritual one; no need for the nation of Israel it is a fluke of history.. They allegorize prophecy and the Covenants. Most Kingdom Now are Post-Mil which is an optimistic amillennial and believe things will get better and better through the gospel then Christ will return. A-Mils believe things will get bad but when Christ returns eternity begins—no kingdom.
Manny as Pre-Mils you and I are in the minority of Christendom!
Well my friend, given how things are shaping and coalescing, we will find out soon enough! I believe pre-mil will be the way. Nonetheless, God is in control not man! Thank God for that! God bless you and yours RS, and may He bless you for your tireless defence of His word! Maranatha!
Wow! Another heresy to JW’s credit! Since he constantly ignores Scripture, upon what does he base his “ministry” and “credibility”? Himself?
“… so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him, He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.” Heb. 9:28 I guess that means JW will miss out on this part of the Gospel also.
I am thrilled to be in the minority, by the grace of God…one of Jesus’ “few.” As the saying goes, “A lie is still a lie even if everyone believes it and the truth is still the truth even if no one believes it.”
The “few” will instantly disappear from this wicked planet before God pours out His wrath. And that’s the truth!
It seems a fair assessment to say that James White is above rebuke, that he seems pride-filled. Now, isn’t that a sin we all wrestle against? It is alarming to see him get too close to such an evil religion, and not speak out against the errors he witnessed.
I did listen to the Janet Mefferd show featuring Mr. White and I think it was a testimony to what I stated above.
In this age of glaring apostasy, we all must be careful what/who we embrace. If it doesn’t line up with God’s word, it must be rejected, as well as the one who speaks falsely.
Time will tell if Mr. White will go headlong into apostasy, it certainly should not be the desire of any that he do so, and I am certain it isn’t.
I will say this…..he is one of many on my ‘do not listen to’ list.
Janet is getting ripped up one side and down the other on twitter (by guess who) for that interview. I pray for her strength. She doesn’t deserve the abuse.
I agree Rascott. I thought she was fair in her dealings with White. It’s a shame that so many idolize others like White, who is a fallible sinner like the rest of us.
I too pray for Janet. She made some very valid points and White seemed very rude often times in his replies, he also seemed to tap dance around a bit.
Thanks Amy, I will investigate it further.
Whie’s followers often rip on those who disagree with him, that seems to be glaring fruit of his ministry also.
The ‘debate’ that has been ‘raging’ for over a month is because the root and fruit of the originator of it strikes at the very heart of the Gospel, the Word of God, and the Character of the Lord Jesus. If White’s “holding hands with the devil in order to do the Lord’s work” is a valid pursuit for JW then the same holds true for all Christians. In which case dozens, maybe hundreds of verses in the Bible are thus rendered mute, void, and useless as the benchmark for our thoughts, actions, and words.
It has become the new mantra of those who claim to be “Christian” that it is unbiblical to offend anyone for any reason. This can be found in the Scriptures WHERE? If it is more important to refrain from offending a person because they teach lies (islam) or it is more important to refrain from calling out those who promote said liars (islam) than it is to stand for the truth and veracity of the Lord Jesus and His Word, judge for yourselves. This “can’t we just all get along” gospel of James White has negated the offense of the cross. So has this notion that it is a sin to offend someone else, no matter how they show hatred for the Lord Jesus Christ. If Stephen had that mindset he would have lived to a ripe old age. All the verses that tell us not to offend others speak specifically of brothers, never unbelievers. Is James White a believer? Check the fruit and decide for yourself. [I haven’t found any.] Just because a person says “I’m a Christian” does not make it so—many examples to this are in the NT, start with Judas. When a man habitually excludes the necessity of the new birth, repentance, forgiveness of sins, the bodily resurrection of the Lord Jesus and His immanent return, what “gospel” is he preaching? Is it not the one Paul spoke of in Gal. 1:6-9? JW may be fluent in “Christianese” and that is his hook and draw: “Why, a man this knowledgeable about the Bible MUST be a Christian, right?” Not necessarily, and in this case not at all. When confronted with any Scripture (specifically 2 Cor. 6:11-18) that reveals his duplicity JW immediately brushes off all who try to help him see the errors of his ways. Is this the reaction of a humble servant of God (Phil. 2:5-8), one who denies himself and takes up his cross daily (without doing so one CANNOT be a disciple of Christ—Luke 14:27)? Or is it the reaction of a self-centered man, whose allegiance is first and foremost to himself? You decide. Is JW ignorant of the real Gospel? I seriously doubt it. But the real question is this: is JW ashamed of the Son of God, His Word and Gospel? The answer is found in JW’s own words and the lack of them. He is more interested in not offending his new muslim friend than he is in not offending the One he claims to love and serve. Further, how many believers has JW lead down this heretical path, telling them they should go our of their way to befriend a muslim for the sake of evangelism? If JW’s method is so great why haven’t we been treated to the statistics of how many muslims have “accepted Christ as their Savior” under his ministry? Has JW not chided muslims who have left islam after being genuinely born again? Does such a thing not cause genuine offense to a believer, no matter his pre-salvation background? Indeed it does. Maybe a millstone would be in order (Matt. 18:6).
If JW and all his supporters were one/one hundredth as interested in not offending the Lord Jesus as they are in defending JW and his “ministry” we would not even be having this conversation.
Very well said Darrel….I agree with every word. When being offensive and standing your ground concerning Christ and His truth goes ‘out of style’, then it’s time to stop calling oneself a Christian and embrace the flavor of the month religion that fills this earth.
As I stated, White is pride-filled. We all wrestle with sin, BUT, we should be open to loving rebukes by the brethren and that should lead to repentance. I see none of that with White; what I do see is a braggart, boaster, arrogant man who exalts himself and his wisdom far above others.
Many who claim to be ‘reformed’ are very haughty, they have ‘head knowledge’ but the heart doesn’t seem to be connected with that.
It seems that White has embraced the concept of “the end justifies the means” – a secular slogan practiced much by the pagan world, but is devoid of biblical wisdom.
Remember, who will turn on you first? Not the unbelievers, but those that call themselves Christians………….
People love their rock-star pastors, touch not God’s anointed! I will pray for everyone here, all of you that are fighting for God’s honor and truth.
Amen Manny, how true. If you read through Janet Mefferd’s twitter, you will see a glaring example of this.
May we be able to say as the Apostle did, “I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith”
Sister, I see less and less faith being shown by those that name Christ. Much less, reverence for His Name.
Sad but true…..truly a sign of the times.
I have listened to Brannon Howse for many years as well as James White. What Brannon has done is horrifying. I went to both to see the truth. Brannan and his show have lied about ministries before. I had thought it was a one off and stayed listing. See Brannon slanders ‘Alan Kurschner’. I read such cruel comments about White that have no substance. We need to reach the Muslim’s even if we are uncomfortable about it. The name calling that the shows has done bears bad fruit. If Branno’s ex-muslim men teach the truth about taqiyya, are they lieing about being Christians? They are causing division within the body to keep the Muslims away from us so they can’t be saved? The attackers never looked at all the information they just wanted ratings like the fake news.
The situation is pretty far from fake news. That B. Howse brought the situation to the fore front is irrelevant. The facts are in the dialogue videos and JW’s responses themselves. The pointing at Howse is meant to distract from White’s errors. Reaching Muslims with the gospel is not in question. JW’s method of doing so and twisting of scripture to fit his method is. There are many evangelists reaching out to Muslims (many ex-Muslims themselves) and JW has a problem with many of them. He is critical of many Christians and protective of Islamist like Qadhi. This is the issue! Not B. Howse!
Brannon’s ex-Muslim man (for there is only 1) preaches Christ crucified. Y. Qadhi sat in a church with JW and preached Judas crucified (as fitting a traitor) and Christ as a teacher of Islam and JW said nothing to correct him in the dialogue.
“Y. Qadhi sat in a church with JW and preached Judas crucified (as fitting a traitor) and Christ as a teacher of Islam and JW said nothing to correct him in the dialogue.” – THAT is the core issue, yet, White’s ‘fan club’ defend him and divert away from the heart of the matter. How anyone can defend White and attack those who expose him is beyond comprehension. We are never to make an idol out of man, nor are we to follow another man. Christ is our Lord and Savior, He is who we are to follow. God forbid any of us ever think man, any man, is infallible. Yet, White is above rebuke, rather than repent of his atrocities and compromising ways, he just puffs up more and points his finger away from ‘self’ and towards any who dare expose him. Pride truly is an ugly sin and, if left unchecked, will drag the sinner away.
Good article from Culture Watch web…https://billmuehlenberg.com/2017/07/18/islam-sharia-creep-spinning-control/
I will say that any ministry that does not call out JW for what he has done (and he promises to do more) has lost all credibility to call out M. Brown R. Warren, etc. JW’s explanation of 2 John is almost laughable.
Thanks for the heads up, Amy.
A final call to repentance to James White and all those who think he has done no wrong. JW has not only promoted islam in a deceitful manner, but has, more importantly, blaspheme the Lord whom he claims to love and serve in the process. Does anyone seriously believe that they can hold hands with the antichrist in order to do the “Lord’s work?” Yes, it is that serious. And yes, a real Christian will repent of such evil.
One more thing: I completely understand the difficult situation White has put many people in. He has a lot of friends. He is still wrong about this on many different levels.
Probably too late to get responses but….If we were to give the benefit of the doubt to James White on this matter, does the following from the Apostle Paul apply?
1 Corinthians 9:19-23
19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.
It was a mixed audience. So how does JW become like a Muslim and a Christian at the same time? Paul gave detailed instruction of how a local church was to conduct their gathering together in 1 Cor. Part of the defense has been it was not Sunday nor a worship service. That does not pass the smell test to me.
Is Paul implying that we embrace dangerous, dead religions and say NOTHING? Absolutely not. The Apostle went to great lengths to proclaim Christ, something we did not hear from James White concerning his muslim friend.
May God receive all glory due Him, may His elect stand firm til the end by His power and might. The road ahead is filled with compromise and deceit, only those God has re-birthed and saved will stand til the end.
No! Paul is saying that when among the Jews he observed the law and among the gentiles he would eat a ham sandwich and such. Nothing about a kindred spirit with anti-Christ.
I think Brannon Howse and all that have jumped on the band wagon of attack should repent. James White did give the Gospel. What I have found looking at both sides is that Brannon has twisted the truth. I honestly feel that WVW is no longer a safe place to hear the truth. Having Jimmy DeYoung say James is a heretic and turn him over to satan is just wrong. Is it Biblical that talk radio should have this kinda of authority? Is it ever right that Christians should try and destroy other Christians? We need to be honest and not twist the truth. This is crazy and wrong.
Islam is much more dangerous than many people including Christians realize. It’s not a religion but a political and legal ideology that is not and never will be compatible with western democracy. In fact the entire goal is destroy our society and take away our freedom. When in the minority Islam is all about freedom of speech and rights when in the majority they don’t allow it under penalty of torture, rape and murder all condoned by their God Allah. Where Islam is in majority look at what happens to Christians and the ability to preach or teach the gospel. You are forced into this “religion” by the threat of death and threatened with death if you leave making it a death cult. Jesus said to be wise as serpents and allowing the freedom God has given us to be undermined is not fear of preaching the gospel, as has been suggested, but wisdom. James White is being used in this and not by the God of the bible.
Amy,
I do not understand why you want to close comments on this thread when there are others that are years old on this site and still active. Please help me understand.
Yasir Qadhi is an antichrist who preaches another Jesus and is a supporter of Jihadists. In James White sharing a stage with and him has this promoted Yasir Qadhi, has he become more famous and has this notoriety helped him preach his antichrist message to more people, has he been able to monetize this notoriety in anyway?
If the answer to any of these question is yes then you have aided an antichrist!
How can any Christian not see this and know for certain this is sin?
There’s several programs about this at megiddoradio DOT com, namely this one – http://megiddoradio.com/2017/06/26/264-yasir-qadhis-blasphemy-and-james-whites-silence/
I think the quote from Calvin is very relevant, “A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God’s truth is attacked and yet would remain silent.”
Indeed, Lyn. “Christian” silence has always baffled me. The question MUST be asked is the silent one really saved?
There comes a time in dealing with any heretic that you come to your “the straw that broke the camel’s back” moment. Now I see where JW has said that Mark 16:9-20; John 7:53-8:11 and 1John 5:7 & 8 are ‘not included’ in the ‘original manuscripts’ and are therefore not to be considered part of the Word of God and therefore not inspired. I’m so glad to see that he thinks he can set the Holy Spirit straight on this matter and educate the masses that have been “duped” into believing that God actually does preserve His Word. Pardon the off-the-wall humor, but enough of the clown/heretic James White. There are two you-tube links, but I’ve only the one below so far. Still searching for the one where you can hear JW’s mouth in all its ‘glory’.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YYD_UZXVFg&t=239s
hope the link works
I told myself to at least try to watch the event that took place . I stopped after five seconds in which I listened to Mr. white say his guest would “tell us what it is like to live as a Muslim here in the USA”. Oooookay. That is where I stopped. He is asking his audience to put on their sympathy glasses and listen to this representative of the spirit of the antichrist . How can anyone say this is good? I would not sit under Mr. Whites teachings for other reasons. This solidifies my view of him. I assume there were no shouts of mockery from the non-believers (as Paul experienced on Mars Hill), since we can not know of the audiences reactions. does anyone know how the audiences of both sessions reacted?
Very well said.
Ah, yes, let’s have a dialogue in which we would have guests “tell us what it is like to live as a
Hindu here in the USA.
Buddhist here in the USA.
atheist here in the USA.
Satanist here in the USA.
adulterer here in the USA.
homosexual here in the USA.
transgender here in the USA.
extortionist here in the USA.
thief here in the USA.
Folks, we have the truth and we love people. Therefore, we don’t dialogue with unbelievers; instead, WE share with THEM the Gospel of Christ. We know that all men are lost; it really matters not in which sin they are mired. There is only one sin that matters and that is the sin of unbelief.
James White should be unashamedly preaching the Gospel, which is a manifestation of our love for God for people.
Amen B! Amen brother, let’s not be “ashamed” of the Gospels! Time is so short!
The two sides of this situation.
1. Political
2. Great Commision.
One side (2) has preached the gospel to Muslims all around the world. The other side (1) has warned America of the dangers of Islam (although, the other side warns of this. Just doesn’t allow this to get in the way of the great commission). One side proclaims that only the gospel can fix the politics of Islam. The other side proclaims the defense of America, even if it may be war, can fix the politics of Islam. One side starts misrepresentional division while the other theoriughly responds to the misrepresentations. It’s not a matter of “whites followers” defending white. One side is being honest and staying true to the great Commision while the other side is lying and staying true to our American rights. If you’re being consistent and looking at both sides, there has been lies on lies against white. That alone makes me very cautious and skeptical to anything this side accuses James of. And I will stand with anyone who will go against the politics and continue to consistently preach the gospel to every tribe, tongue and nation. No matter how dangerous that nation may be.
And what planet does this “James White” reside on? Surely you do not speak of the one here on earth for that one is an entirely different creature. He does not ‘preach the Gospel’ of Jesus Christ, but the gospel according to James White which is no Gospel at all, but is the “another gospel” of Gal. 1:6-9. Has he ever told a muslim to repent of his sins and believe on the Lord Jesus? Find the link, if you can, because I must hear it in his own voice. Has he ever told a muslim that he “must be born again?” Provide the link.
The premise for your statement is flawed because you have not allowed for the proven errors, the capitulation to evil, the blatant denial of the Lord Jesus on multiple occasions, and the manipulation of Scripture to accommodate the antichrist seated next to him that is his “mentor”. Instead, you produce a “defense” that compliments and upholds the pure breed wickedness of James White; your idol, James White, has been “attacked” and you rush to your idol’s defense not knowing that in doing so your have proven yourself to be twofold more a child of hell than is your idol, James White Matt. 23:15. James White does not abide in the doctrine of Christ due to well practiced denial of Christ as he sits silent to the blasphemes of his mentor. He is ashamed of Christ and more interested in praising his new mentor and his religion than he is in keeping the record straight concerning Christ and His Word. 2 John 7-11 tells the believer not to have anything to do with a person (muslim or professed “Christian”) that does not “abide in the doctrine of Christ.” James White has abandoned the doctrine of Christ in favor of the doctrine of the antichrist and if you, JP, agree with his actions then you are just as guilty as White and his antichrist mentor. Instead of defending White, you should be asking yourself the question “how can James White be saved and constantly be ashamed of and deny the Lord he claims to love and serve?”
Hopefully, you will repent of this evil in which you now reside. Most refuse the call to repent because they are more interested in maintaining their ego trip than they are in denying themselves, and seeking the necessary forgiveness from the Lord Jesus. Remember, if you refuse to deny yourself then you CANNOT be a disciple of Jesus Christ—Luke 14:26,27 & 33.
Time to choose: yourself and James White or the Lord Jesus Christ.
Trying to play evangelism against politics has been a main plank in James White’s defense and his groupies have been beating that drum at his direction since day one: As if no Christians were evangelizing Muslims before White came along with his method. The gospel will not “fix” the politics of Islam it will destroy the politics Islam because Islam’s eschatology like that of Communism is about man’s kingdom not God’s Kingdom. So if “Dr.” White’s motives are purely gospel fueled why did he say that Christians need to join hands with Muslims to fight secularism? Sounds political to me!
There is no justification for the things he said and allowed Qahdi to say unchallenged in the dialogue. This strategy of saying that White’s critics are purely politically motivated is employed to shame them and deflect from White’s adoration of a Jihadist like Qadhi as well as take the focus off of White’s peculiar interpretations of passages that instruct believers (particularly elders in 2 John) not to partake in these kind of events. White has written two articles twisting 2 Corinthians 6 (which apparently has nothing to do with IFD) and 2 John (which apparently has nothing to do with Islam) to excuse his actions. He is the professional Christian after all and his critics are just political novices. Scripture will always say what White wants it to say because his theology is the context, not the authorial intent.
Good morning Darrel and RS,
One thing I’ve noticed not just with the capitulation of JW, but with the capitulation of leaders that are popular and perceived to be stalwarts of the faith………when they fall, their followers are slack-jawed, defensive and alarmed. To them it’s “impossible” for a stalwart to err so badly! It unfortunately shakes their faith, because instead of focusing on Christ they’re focusing on their “rock,” instead of focusing on the words of God, they’re focusing on what a “preacher” is spouting. After all they’ve been preaching the gospels “correctly,” right? Sure there’s been minor disagreements before but nothing so glaringly wrong. This is the failure point, any “stalwart” is subject to error at ANY time. That’s why behaving as a Berean is a must! All those that handle the word are subject to scrutiny and judgement by the congregation. What we have today is ignorance (of the word) coupled with laziness (too busy to read scripture.)
That’s why I always say, “follow no man.” There’s a reason why God gave us scripture, to keep everyone honest, His followers have no excuse, we have His written manual. When situations like JW’s arise, I automatically remember 2 Timothy 3:15-17
…15From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.
As stated before, a believer cannot be yoked with an unbeliever:
2 Corinthians 6:13-6:15
13As a fair exchange, I ask you as my children: Open wide your hearts also. 14Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership can righteousness have with wickedness? Or what fellowship does light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?…
What does Christ have to do with Allah? What does a Christian have to do Islam? Not hold hands, BUT EVANGELIZE! Not sit on the same table, BUT EVANGELIZE! Not bring in front of a congregation, BUT EVANGELIZE!
The theory of holding hands with false religions to convert them is ridiculous, I’m sorry to say this, stupid……….. and against everything that is written in scripture.
Well said Manny.
If you point out the political ideology and agenda that Islam has been trying to impose on the West and how Western values are superior you are accused of putting America above Christ and his word…It’s simply not true. It’s to shame us from speaking the truth. James White has chosen this tactic and ironically it’s the same one the Progressives ‘Christians’ have been using.
It is my opinion, Christianity should not be linked to politics in anyway. Politics is a man made system void of anything redeeming qualities. Who is in control of the world system? Who is the prince of the power of the air? Again, what does Christ have to do with Belial?
Samuel 8:10-8:20
“10 So Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who asked him for a king. 11 And he said, “This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them for his own chariots and to be his horsemen, and some will run before his chariots. 12 He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, will set some to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and some to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers. 14 And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give them to his servants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants. 16 And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men,[a] and your donkeys, and put them to his work. 17 He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants. 18 And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the Lord will not hear you in that day.”
19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, “No, but we will have a king over us, 20 that we also may be like all the nations, and that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles.”
Israel learned a hard lesson.
This whole issue is just like speaking with KJV Onlyists. There’s no room to reason. If you already know every thought and intention of my heart before meeting me, then I have no chance of reasoning. It doesn’t matter what I say or the facts behind the claims I might provide. And I’m under no obligation to provide them. I’ve watched debates where JW presents the gospel, to repent and believe, to Muslims. You haven’t. And that’s between you and the Lord. You are the one making the accusations that he hasn’t when you obviously have not looked at much of his material at all. In your mind, I’m worshipping and idolizing James White. Even though that’s an issue of the heart which you know nothing of my heart. I can tell you my heart is not pretty, it is deceitfully wicked. But I praise my Lord Jesus Christ every day for giving me a new heart. Making me a new creature in Hin and redeeming me. My Lord Jesus is the apple of my eye and only by clinging to Him and His gospel do I have hope in this world. I pray and hope that Muslims can bow their knee to Jesus Christ making Him Lord of their life. I pray for more oppertuniues for us Christians to present the Gospel to these Muslims and to live the gospel with our lives and our love for one another. John 13:35
Here is the bottom line, JP, there is no need to look inside your “deceitfully wicked” heart (your words) when you type so well. Worse yet, you are currently complicit with a man, JW, that has repeatedly denied the Lord Jesus and by doing so is ashamed of Him. Typing semi-fluent “Christianese” will get you no where, especially not with the Spirit of God. You have sided with an antichrist and want people to believe otherwise, just like the antichrist whose ’cause’ you have taken upon yourself. You read with little to no understanding, continue to defend the indefensible, and think you do God service. Good luck with that. I hope it’s not too late for you to repent; don’t drag it out too long or it may become too late. The last time I heard White was a few years ago when he refused or was unable to refute the claims of his antichrist (muslim) opponent who stated that Jesus never said He was the Son of God. Does that sound like “preaching the Gospel” to you? Is that the action of a born again child of God or a coward? Time for you to choose, JP, James White or Jesus Christ.
Don’t be a wingnut, Darrel. You don’t know JP. Whatever he thinks of James White is based on his knowledge of White. And if White and JP are wrong on how to approach Muslims (and I think they are), it doesn’t mean they aren’t saved. You’re not the Lord of JP’s faith.
By all means, help JP to see how White is wrong on this, but questioning JP’s salvation is out of bounds. The Apostle Paul knew the Corinthians intimately and knew their many sins, but he still had confidence that they were saved. You, on the other hand, see what you perceive to be an issue for JP, someone you’ve never met, and quickly pronounce him anathema. Not good, Darrel. May God have more grace for you than you have for JP.
No where in my comment to JP did I raise the question as to whether he was saved or not, as you very well know that I did not. So why the kind critique, berlorac? By the way, Paul did indeed question the salvation of the Corinthians in 2Cor. 13:5. Try and get your ducks in a row next time.
Darrel
I would challenge you to look more closely at what Paul is saying in 2 Corinthians 13:5. In 1 Cor 1:2, 3:1, 3:5; 6:11, 6:19-20; 2 Cor 1:1, 1:21-22, 24; 3:2-3; 6:14-16; 8:9; 10:15 Paul affirms that he is writing to believers so all of a sudden in 2 Cor 13:5 he questions whether he is actually writing to believers?
The Corinthians had challenged Paul for proof or dokimē (2 Cor 13:3) that Christ was “in” him (2 Cor 13:3) and that he had not been disqualified or adokimos (2 Cor 13:6-7). In 2 Cor 13:5, Paul challenged them on these very same issues. Paraphrased: “You are demanding proof that Christ is speaking through me? You, yourselves, should test yourselves to see if He is speaking in you.” This has nothing to do with justification (position) but with sanctification (condition).
The word proof (dokime) applies to believers in fact Paul applied this very word to Timothy in 2 Tim 2:15 and Timothy was obviously a believer. Paul would not have installed him as the pastor at Ephesus if the apostle had any lingering doubts about Timothy’s salvation. Paul even applies dokimos to himself in 2 Cor 13:7 and Paul did not doubt his justification one bit.
The word disqualified (adokimos) applies to believers. Paul uses it of himself in 1 Corinthians 9:27. Is Paul doing this to be justified? No, Paul was concerned about being disqualified from the prize not the gift. We believe and receive the gift we earn rewards through faithfulness. And through faithfulness, being in the faith, walking by the Spirit (1 Cor 16:13, Col 2:7, Titus 1:13, Acts 14:22; 16:5; 1 Pet 5:9) Christ is formed in us (Gal 4:19) and He abides with us (John 15, 1 John 2:28; 4:13).
Paul is not asking the Corinthians to examine themselves to see if they have believed but to see if they are being renewed (2Cor 4:16, Eph 4:23, Col 3:10). He is exhorting his readers (believers) to test themselves to see if Christ is in them, that is, whether they are making progress in the second tense of their salvation.
Darrel, when you denigrate JP’s confession of faith as mere “Christianese,” it sure sounds like you are questioning his salvation. If this is not your intent, then maybe you need to back off the harsh tone and teach, instead, with all patience and love.
Please examine 1 Corinthians 1:1-9, 1:30, 3:23, 4:14, 6:11, 6:19-20, 8:6, 10:13-17, 12:2-3, 12:27, 15:51-52. 2 Corinthians 1:1-2, 1:24, 3:2-4, 7:1-4. In these verses, Paul declares that he is writing to those who are saved. Paul leaves the door open (1 Corinthians 15:2, 2 Corinthians 13:5), of course, because it would be impossible to know whether EVERYONE assembled in any of the local churches was of the faith. Yet, Paul speaks to them as a confident father, confident of their standing in Christ.
Let us begin with such confidence toward all who profess faith until someone truly does prove to be otherwise.
In a nutshell, man made governments will use you, abuse you and disregard you. How we as true Christians act toward government is clearly defined in scripture. We pay our taxes, we follow the laws, we act peacefully, but we don’t hold hands with it, it was instituted for civil peace keeping, and under no circumstance can it infringe on your standing with God, you must resist if it makes you violate any of God’s commands. We are in the world not of it. We are sojourners who are to spread the gospels, that’s it.
Manny
I don’t believe government is man-made it is a divine institution just like marriage and family. The thing is that fallen man is temporarily the leaders of governments and they have their own plans. There are many Christians who have been called to the vocation of public affairs.
Isaiah 9:6-7 6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
This is something to look forward to. But right now.
Daniel 4:17 17 ‘This decision is by the decree of the watchers,
And the sentence by the word of the holy ones,
In order that the living may know
That the Most High rules in the kingdom of men,
Gives it to whomever He will,
And sets over it the lowest of men.’
Romans 13:1 1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
Well said, Manny. Paul’s conception of the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Satan is such that Satan is the god of this world only with God’s permission. (God could have ended the whole thing back in Eden when Adam lost dominion and not allowed Satan to rule.) Will God use government to His ends? Of course. But the Body of Christ is firmly within the Kingdom of God. We have been translated out of the Kingdom of Darkness into the Kingdom of Light.
I think the Lutheran Two Kingdom doctrine helps in many areas. God rules over the secular kingdoms of man which has been established to enforce laws and such by the sword and the spiritual kingdom is in Christ and is voluntary and carries no sword. Some of us live in both. It seems your only other option would be Transformationalism aka Cultural Mandate.
We live in a country where we are free to voice our opinions and vote in our secular leaders and if you think of it as a two kingdoms you can vote for the one that would be most in-line with upholding our freedoms so we can continue to preach the gospel… If you see it as Transformationalism you would always be looking for the “godly” candidate and be very disappointed every time you had a chance to vote. Augustine’s “City of God” changed christian thinking on the role of the church and the church has been attempting to rule the world ever since in many forms including Catholicism, Kuyperism, Kingdom Now, Dominionism…
Good evening gentlemen,
I do believe government is mandated by God to keep civility and justice. I do not believe politics as we know it ever appears in scripture, please correct me if I’m wrong. What Christians are commanded to do in regards to government is very clear in scripture. It’s actually quite simple, pay your taxes, live a quiet life and follow the law until such law clashes with God’s law. Which today’s government does, laws such as abortion, homosexual marriage and a plethora of laws that go against what God commands are the details facto law of the land. We are citizens of above our rights granted to us are for use above, we have no rights on Earth, God makes circumstances favorable for the spreading of the gospels in certain places, in other places the cost of evangelizing is death (Middle East) so asking Christians in the Middle East if government is always God ordained, will yield a different response than asking an American from Virginia. Democracy was not in the Bible. My point being as long as I do as required by scripture, I don’t need to partake. As we all know some of the most ardent and humble Christians live under the yoke of repressive governments, having a testimony that humbles those that come from comfort and ease, well brethren, you all that are awake can see that is changing, the window of opportunity to spread the gospel unhindered is closing in America too. And if anyone thinks politicians will do anything to change that is delluded. We’ve had all branches controlled by the “right and godlier” party yet the murder of children goes unabated, God uses man’s governance to fulfill His plan!
Manny
That you don’t have to participate is true but that is different than saying Christianity should not be linked to government in any way. If you mean the Church is not called as a body politic to have dominion over world affairs and culture I agree. But people can’t separate their Christianity from their vocation and God does use and put His people in government position. They should not withdraw because they are Christians. Daniel was the “Foreign Minister” of Iraq (Babylon) and Iran (Persia). Joseph had tremendous influence into the affairs of Egypt. The 2 Samuel passage you referenced has had an incredible impact on western civilization because of Christian influence. We do have rights on earth and Paul appealed to his rights as a Roman citizen. At the Nuremburg trials the Nazi’s were held to a higher standard than their transient and the provincial laws because the Jews, Pols and everyone else they killed had rights.
I certainly don’t think you should participate in anything against your conscience. And you are right things stink but the Restrainer is still restraining lawlessness until He is taken out of the away. Just because God uses for good things meant for bad does not make the bad thing a good thing. And national governments are what God uses to check other national governments.
“If you mean the Church is not called as a body politic to have dominion over world affairs and culture I agree.”
That’s my point. Unfortunately, many Christians “politicize” Christianity, and this is basically where the NAR ends up.
RS, I believe He who restrains is the “check” for everything, the way I see it for God to use national governments as a check, would imply a cosmic chess game. I believe God’s plan is set in stone, and all that man does is orchestrated by the prince of the power of the air, he influences all earthly governments, after all this is his dominion temporarily. Israel did fine, till they asked for a King. Though Paul appealed as a Roman citizen for a civil violation, he never once exhorted for anyone to be politically involved, he himself never thought that his status as a Roman citizen would help further the gospels. Jesus never appealed to any government, He didn’t go see politicians to better the condition of His followers, in fact His response was telling, He submitted and He never caused any trouble. He had the power to instantly destroy everything, yet He submitted for our sakes knowing full well He was going to be murdered.
Manny
It is God Who appoints authorities and made and uses the nations it is Satan who deceives the nations. He is at work causing disturbances but if Satan is looking for more power over the nations then he doesn’t have total power now. It is a cosmic chess game Satan is playing with checkers like diplomacy, treaties and negotiations but it is God Who moves nations.
When Satan tempted Jesus with the nations it was as a man. Satan, though the kingdoms are his, lacks one little element in this scheme and that is a man (a political genius) to do homage to him; this was the temptation, by pass the cross have the nations now. And when Satan obtains the man who has sufficient political genius we’ll have the rise of the beast of the apocalypses. But this is being restrained at least partly through nations; God uses national sovereign nations to prevent global governance under Satan and his Anti-Christ. We don’t and will not live (on earth) at that time.
Manny,
I think that is bad theology and reasoning.
Does God interact with his creation, in our lives or is it all just set in stone?
Does God interact in Nations and governments?
Did God lose control of his creation and now Satan runs everything?
And take your reasoning into other areas e.g., Jesus never voted so…Paul never exhorted any one to become a physician so…
Good afternoon everyone,
God’s constant interaction with us is very evident. Governments today are fulfilling their place as per God’s plan. They will all be sucked into the antichrists one government system, God has shown us what is to come and what is happening today, such as the raging Apostasy that is separating the bride from Churchianity, that is set in stone. It is my understanding the “He who restrains” is not frail human government (that doesn’t have the ability to restrain supernatural beings like demons) but The Holy Spirit, who when He moves aside the fulfillment of Revelation begins. Obviously God hasn’t lost control, if He did He wouldn’t be God. The fact that neither Jesus or the apostles made overture to government is telling. I believe many have shunned the Great Commission for political activism. By the way, I never said God doesn’t interact with His creation, read Revelation, it’s all about God interacting with His creation! Judgement, purging, cleansing, new beginning!
rascott & berlorac,
Thank you both for a reasoned reply. I can see how my words would be taken to question JP’s salvation, but that was not my intent. It was my attempt at waking him up to the dangers inherent with giving JW a second of his time of serious consideration. JW has proven his loyalties are not to Christ, but the antichrist and I hate too see anyone give credence to such a man. The ‘examine yourselves’ of 2 Cor. 13:5 is always in order, especially for a believer, in order to know what you do, say, and believe line up with Scripture. In this case, defending and following JW do not. For JP: wake up. You are not being attacked, but shoved toward the truth. [Who doesn’t need a good kick in the rear end from time to time?]. When any man denies the Lord Jesus (as JW has done repeatedly) and is obviously ashamed of Him, dare anyone say that he is an “errant brother” in need of our prayers? or declare him for what he is: an antichrist enabler and sympathizer? All of his “years of service” to the ‘church’ have been thrown out to the trash heap by James White himself. The case could easily be made that JW fits to a “T” 1 John 2:19. To be clear: JP’s salvation was not questioned, but JW’s was. JW has been found, by the words from his own mouth to a charlatan, a false prophet, and a disciple of satan. He is not saved.
As for the notion that it is unbiblical to “question another’s salvation” I have looked for that command/teaching for over 12 years and have no such thing. It has been used successfully for decades for all manner of fakers to hide beneath and keep the real believer from knowing who they really are. For the most part it has been all too successful. They put the twist-o-matic to Matt. 7:1-4 and lay the guilt trip on those who try say otherwise with the result being silence as the unbeliever marches on undeterred. It has become fashionable, no, demanded, that anyone can claim to “be a Christian” and no one has the right to call them into question—another lie of the wicked one. John 7:24, ‘judge righteous judgment’; 1 Cor. 2:14-16 ‘he who is spiritual judges all things’; 1 Cor. 5:1-13 Paul already judged; 1 Thess. 5:21; Acts 20:29 & 30 ; 1 John 2:19 and Matt. 7:15-20. The ones who teach that it is improper to “question another’s salvation” have zero biblical support for their claim and expose their own error. They must ignore the few verses given above and hammer away at anyone who dare oppose them. Is it proper to question another’s salvation? Absolutely! Out of anger? NO. On a whim? NO. A simple matter of personality clashes? NO. But when hard evidence is in front of you and the conclusion is screaming in your face, is silence the proper answer? NEVER. What good does silence provide to the Body of Christ? None. Is such a tacit response pleasing to the Lord Jesus? How can it be in light of the few given verses (there are more)? More, like Eph. 5:11. It’s ok to say people like Benny Hinn, TD Jakes, and Joyce Meyer, et al are unsaved heretics, but what happens when “one of our own” shows his true colors (Acts 20:29 & 39). One that has had our respect, admiration, and ear for years? Most ‘circle the wagons’ and spout “Judge not” or “Touch not God’s anointed” or some other inane phrase. If your pet preacher were so “anointed of God” why does he now teach lies and call it truth? [James White is a classic example]. Chew on this a while. Hopefully we will see eye to eye.
Darrel
OK you were not questioning JP’s salvation (JW’s yes). But if JP is saved then what is the danger of him giving JW a second of his time? Could his loyalties shift from Christ to JW or elsewhere? Your answer seems to imply that is not possible if he is “truly” saved. And if he is not “truly” saved then he needs to to be told how to be saved and that is not looking to himself as Paul exhorts the Corinthians to do. 1Corinthians 13:5 is not how one receives the free gift of life. It is how a believer knows that Christ is working in them. Believers apostatize unbelievers do not.
‘Believers apostatize’ – no, not true believers. Those who have stony hearts, shallow hearts, etc are the ones who apostatize. This has been discussed before, it is an affront to the sovereign God of heaven and earth to state those He’s elected unto life can wriggle free from the gift given by God and apostatize. “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ” Phil. 1:6
Holding to free will causes one to stumble on passages like Phil. 1:6
A “true” believer is any person who has believed in Jesus for the gift of life based on His death and resurrection as the Son of God. I know where you stand Lyn but you’ll have to find another verse to prove your point because Phil 1:6 is about the good work the Philippians did in financially and otherwise supporting Paul’s ministry (Acts 16, Phil 4:14-20). Phil 4:17 “Not that I seek the gift, but I seek the fruit that abounds to your account”. Paul is saying that the Philippians have fruit through Paul because of their generosity. This passage has nothing to do with “true” verse “false believers. Guess what, their good work is with us to this day in Paul’s epistles.
Take off your TULIP glasses you will see better.
I don’t see how you get Phil. 1:6 being about financial support. “Fellowship in the Gospel” has nothing to do with money. Surely, rascott, you know the dangers of listening to a false prophet and there should be no need to do so here. Please don’t jerk the context to make an invalid point. “Believers apostatize unbelievers do not” can be found where in Scripture? I refer again to 1 John 2:19, “they WERE NOT OF US” or they would have stayed with us.
As for ‘other verses’ that prove that God is sovereign in who He saves and who He does not and that one’s supposed “free will” has absolutely nothing to do with a person being saved, I have over 200 at the ready OT & NT so pick a Book. I’m sure there are a lot more. let’s start with John and show me free will there (please start with John 3:16, please).
Please don’t use ‘circle logic’ with JP, he needs help, not further confusion.
How did the Philippians share in the gospel? Phil 4:10-20 tells us. They were the only church who did. Philippians is a thank you letter. How you get the philosophical argument about free will and God’s sovereignty out of Phil 1:6 is by overlaying your presuppositions on the text. It is not part of Paul’s context at all. You start with the premise that faith is a meritorious work; we are saved through faith so God gives the faith. That’s not the starting point of scripture. Faith and works are always contrasted never conflated. We are saved by grace through faith.
The “us” in 1 John 2:9 is the apostles. They are the “we” in 1 John 1. You are reading “believer” (or reader) in to the “us” because of presuppositions as I am sure you can do for all 200 OT & NT you choose. You are being a philosopher not an exegete.
The questions I raised about JP are valid. If JW is unsaved as you judge and JP’s thoughts line up with his why is it that JW is unsaved but JP is not? And if JP is saved then according to you logic JP’s thoughts will not line up with JW’s. The circle is of your making not mine.
Darrel
I full well no the dangers of listening to false teachers. That’s really the point I am making. There are serious consequences for those who are savaged by wolves. But there are believers who are savaged by wolves. They may even become a wolf themselves. This does not indicate that they were never believers in the truth they apostatize (depart) from the faith and unbelievers do not depart from the faith because they were never in the faith. For an unbeliever to apostatize it would mean coming to faith.
apostasía (from 868/aphístēmi, “leave, depart,” which derives from 575/apó, “away from” and 2576/kammýō, “stand”) – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy; (literally) “a leaving, departing from a previous standing.”
Israel “departed from Moses” because all Israel was under the covenant given through Moses. Believers and unbelievers alike were under this contract with God. Only believers are in the New Covenant and only believers can depart from the faith by definition. The scripture need not say as I put it for the concept to be true. Words mean what they mean.
*Know not no ha ha I have my days.
“Holding to free will causes one to stumble on passages…”
Not at all lyn, the bible clearly speaks of those who have been born again have eternal life, if one could lose eternal life, it wouldn’t be eternal. : )
As far as ‘Christians’ falling away I think a big part of it is the churches. A good example would be the mainline churches that have split and gone gay affirming etc. e.g., PCUSA, ELCA, Church of England (Anglican), et al. They call themselves Christians and leave the word, bible believers leave and the denomination is left apostate.
Q
I think you are correct that organizations can apostatize like the denominations you mentioned that used stand in the faith. But there is individual apostasy too.
Darrel,
I hope you can hear this and receive correction for yourself. When you disagree with someone, even quite rightly, you come down on that person like a ton of bricks. When I was new to this site, and really quite timid in expressing myself, but wanting to, I was afraid you would jump down my throat for saying something you disagreed with. Even more so I felt badly for someone who is not strong in the faith but questioning and who would be offended and turned away by your harsh response. Please examine yourself and temper your responses with kindness and love in Christ. 1 Corinthians 13.
Thank you Maggie.
Thank you for your kind words, and yes, they have been considered long before you spoke them. Since you did not specify which of my comments fall into the ‘ton of bricks’ category, I will not speculate. Nor will I offer the expected ‘defense’ but rather ask you to consider a few things. For too long the church (even the real one) has fallen prey to the “love card” which amounts to nothing more than a sloppy, sentimental type of “love” that is no love at all. This ‘love’ has nothing whatsoever to do with fact that “God is love” as seen in 1 John 4:8. It is more wishful thinking than love because it only provides an escape route for a guilty conscience—temporarily. For those who have jumped to the conclusion that I am speaking against 1 Cor. 13 think again. It is the Word of God and I will not allow for that chapter to be sullied by the convoluted definition of love that is common today. The genuine love of God is no more prominent than in Rom. 5:8 where He provides for the needs of the elect through the death and resurrection of Christ. He did not send us away saying ‘be warmed and filled’ but provided for our every need in Christ. Today’s “love card” folks know nothing of this, please do not be fooled.
The next time you read the four Gospel accounts try to make a note of the words of the Lord as He dealt with the Pharisees. You will find in Matt. 40 occasions; Mark has 24; Luke 31; and John 19 where the Lord Jesus was harsh (by the love card standard), direct, giving no quarter to the pretenders of His day. He called them a brood of vipers as did John the Baptist, and other “unloving and judgmental” words according to the love card crowd. The “ton of bricks” fell upon His disciples and many turned and followed Him no more. He told Peter to “Get behind Me, Satan” when Peter tried to dissuade Him from the cross. Nearly all of Matt. 23 is devoted to what would today be considered ‘name-calling’; judgmental; unloving; over the top and unfair treatment of those to whom He spoke. The ‘love card people’ play their hand in an attempt to silence their target. And NO, I absolutely do not believe this was your intent and I do not want you or any other believer to fall prey to it’s lure. This is a good time for Luke 20:18. Having read most of your comments from the last few months, I have no doubt your main interest is the exaltation of Christ and the defense of the faith. May it be so for every one who names the Name of Christ.
rascott,
You have completely misunderstood what I said and instead have twisted it to your own agenda to which I will not indulge you further. Isn’t is a shame when the wiles of the wicked one take over a mind by diverting attention from the real problem here which is James White, an emissary of satan, and change the subject with the use of circle logic, another of his favorite tools. Have fun in your sand box.
Wingnut out.
Darrel
You seem to have a mastery of discerning whether people are saved or not as well as whether they have had the wicked one take their mind. I have made many critical comments concerning JW and his IFD I am hardly diverting from criticism of him. I have not judge JW’s, JP’s or anybody’s salvation.
You posted a verse I believed you took out of context. I responded. I took a verse you believed to be out of context. You responded. We were discussing the text of scripture and how we reached our conclusions which is good for us to do; open up God’s word and share. Your indignation has been duly recorded. I will not interact with you again until you deem appropriate.
I wonder where was the outrage when ‘Q’ said this, “Dr. White isn’t now and has never been a Christian or a bible believer. He is a pretender and Bible destroyer.” Now, he clearly judged James White’s salvation, yet rascott, maggie, nor berlorac said a word. Where was the outcry? Yet, Darrel says “Typing semi-fluent “Christianese” will get you no where, especially not with the Spirit of God”- and the board lights up – why so? We call out one for supposedly judging, and remain silent to the other who definitely IS judging? Wouldn’t that be considered hypocritical?
There has been no outrage on my part. Is asking questions outrage? I don’t recall reading “Q” say what you quote but Sola did on July 17, 2017 at 8:54 pm and I responded July 17, 2017 at 9:08 pm.
Yes, I said Q instead of Sola, however, the double standard by some here is the issue, not who actually made the statement.
So, you have a right to correct Darrel because it was JP’s first post?!? Really? You are going with that excuse? That is nothing more than a double standard by ALL who addressed Darrel’s alleged judging and remain silent on Sola’s stating White is not saved. It’s apparent those who reprimanded Darrel are in need of reprimanding as well.
Perhaps apologies are in line; may God cause us ALL to examine our hearts and deal with what lies therein.
[yet rascott, ******, nor ******** said a word]… [Perhaps apologies are in line]
I showed that I spoke up to Sola. If you feel apologies are in order then I will wait for yours to me. But you will have to be inclined to do so God will not make you do it.
Sola
I can’t say that I know whether White has ever believed the gospel but what is clear to me is that he is above reproach and thinks he holds the key to not only interpreting scripture but deciding what parts belong and what parts are forgeries. And his Muslim friends use his words to attack the Bible. from ‘rascott’
You did NOT reprimand him at all! You only stated you can’t say whether he’s believed in the gospel…yet, you say this to Darrel, “Darrel, when you denigrate JP’s confession of faith as mere “Christianese,” it sure sounds like you are questioning his salvation. If this is not your intent, then maybe you need to back off the harsh tone and teach, instead, with all patience and love.” I don’t know of the tone of Darrel, for only God knows such. We can read into others comments our own opinions, but we cannot know for certain. Some see harshness, others may not. In any case, you were quick to jump on Darrel, yet your comment to Sola was not accusative at all.
So, you are going by a double standard and playing the hypocrite.
Lyn
You are on a crusade. I did not reprimand Darrel either. I asked questions about his conclusions. You are not quoting me Lyn. Somebody else wrote those words. Please read more carefully.
It’s interesting that very harsh words were spoken against James White – I do NOT defend him – my point is this – that’s acceptable. Yet, Darrel responds to JP and the board lights up with reprimands for his ‘tone’.
I think EVERYONE OF US needs to ask the Lord to examine our hearts.
[yet, you say this to Darrel, “Darrel, when you denigrate JP’s confession …]
Not me at all! Lyn your hatred for my theology is showing and you are accusing me of things others wrote and ignoring what I did write.
Oh boy, now you are digging a deeper hole by falsely accusing me concerning your theology. That did not even enter my mind. It’s pointless to try and have a discussion isn’t it? Playing the ‘blame game’ isn’t how followers of Christ are to edify one another.
Does that mean no for the apology for attributing others quotes to me? Can you admit you did? Oh well. It does sound pointless
Q never said anything like that.
lyn, I didn’t see that statement from Q. I would question how he can adamantly state such a thing. White may be a false teacher in some respects, but I don’t know about his salvation. I don’t know the man or all that he believes. If Q believes he knows enough about White to make such a judgment, then you’ll have to ask Q about it. I’d like to know where White has stated that he does not believe the Gospel.
Darrel’s comment to JP, in my opinion, was off the mark and unwarranted because it was JP’s first post. We don’t know anything about him (unlike White who is a public figure with reams of teaching we can investigate). My point to Darrel was to not jump on JP after one post about the politicization of Islam.
Sorry, I posted before I saw rascott’s post. He is correct. It was Sola, not Q, who made that statement about White. My apologies to Q for putting him in the middle of this.
Sola was called out by RS and Amy.
berlorac, Apology accepted.
berlorac,
I appreciate your honesty and I apologize for accusing you falsely. With that said, do you condone all the harsh words/allegations towards James White in this comment section? If so, then all who’ve spoken harshly concerning James White need to be reprimanded as well right?
lyn, I believe there is a right time and a wrong time to speak more harshly to someone.
James White has a long history of teaching both online and in books. If those who have done their homework regarding White’s many years of teaching can conclude that he is a false teacher based on all those teachings, then, by all means, let’s expose his errors but also teach the truth so that all are edified. That said, it would be better to speak directly to White who is held to a higher standard as a teacher and which may warrant getting into his face.
But, if a regular Joe named “JP” comes on a blog and says that he can see what White is trying to do by dialoging with Muslims, then I would question JP as to where the Apostles allowed for such a “ministry.” Simply asking JP to defend, from Scripture, his admiration for White’s tactics need not be harsh, primarily because we don’t know JP. Darrel was in JP’s face without knowing anything else about JP. We know a lot about White, nothing about JP.
I disagree with White’s tactics and I disagree with JP’s agreement with White, but that’s no reason to jump down JP’s throat. After Darrel responded to JP, JP gave a defense and confession of his faith. This is when Darrel continued to bash JP, calling his confession “Christianese.” If a guy can’t even come on here without getting slammed for using Biblical terms to describe his relationship with Christ, then there’s no room for love, edification, and patience in teaching. And if that’s the case, then a major portion of Paul’s doctrine on the function of the Body has been thrown out the window.
Q never said anything like that, lyn was mistaken and it should be corrected.
She did that @ 7-28 3:25 pm. How many “pounds of flesh” do you require?
She said it doesn’t matter who made the statement… and perhaps apologies are in order…
It matters to me being accused of an inflammatory comment I never made. It would be nice to have the person that initiated the mistake that others believed to be true to clearly correct it and apologize. How many “pounds of flesh” do you figure that is?
“Does that mean no for the apology for attributing others quotes to me? Can you admit you did? Oh well. It does sound pointless” I did? You love rabbit trails don’t you?
Good day, enough time wasted with immature whiny babies.
It’s easy to point an accusing finger at others isn’t it? However, the call is to examine our own hearts, that isn’t very pretty, nor is it popular. I know what lies in my heart, and it causes me much grief.
Lyn
You started this conversation by accusing me falsely of not speaking up to Sola. Then you falsely attributed quotes to me. You falsely accused me of being harsh to Darrel. It seems I was your target in the first place. If you apologized to me I cannot find it. You apologized to B (who you quoted and said was me)but you did not apologize to me. I have no anger in any of this conversation even at the accusations. Your problem is with me it seems. If it is not about theology it must be personal. Bye Lyn. I will give you the same courtesy I gave Darrel. I will not initiate conversations wwith you until you deem appropriate.
yes, as I stated, no more time needs to be wasted. You are quick on the draw concerning others, yet you don’t like it when you yourself may have handled the situation wrong as well.
I’ll leave you with a quote from George Muller, ““There is only one thing I deserve, and that is Hell! I tell you, my brother, that is the only thing I deserve. By nature I am a lost man, but I am sinner saved by the grace of God. Though by nature a sinner, I do not live in sin. I hate sin; I hate it more and more, and love holiness more and more.” from http://www.georgemuller.org/uploads/4/8/6/5/48652749/an_hour_with_george_muller.pdf
I quoted you ‘verbatim’!!! I copied and pasted from YOUR comments. I’ll paste them again, “Sola
I can’t say that I know whether White has ever believed the gospel but what is clear to me is that he is above reproach and thinks he holds the key to not only interpreting scripture but deciding what parts belong and what parts are forgeries. And his Muslim friends use his words to attack the Bible.” from ‘rascott’ Sola flat out states White is not saved, and all you can say is that you can’t say? Then you say this to Darrel, ““Darrel, when you denigrate JP’s confession of faith as mere “Christianese,” it sure sounds like you are questioning his salvation.” Now THAT is a double standard friend.
I apologized to berlorac because he said he never saw Sola’s comment.
berlorac July 26, 2017 at 9:35 am #
Darrel, when you denigrate JP’s confession of faith as mere “Christianese,” it sure sounds like you are questioning his salvation. If this is not your intent, then maybe you need to back off the harsh tone and teach, instead, with all patience and love
I am not berloraac!!!!
Correct, that comment is accredited to berlorac. I stand corrected for that comment only. I did copy and paste your comments below……
So nobody wants to help me explain to lyn that the double standard she is accusing me of comes from something I never said? She quoted me then berlorac and then holds me accountable for what he said?
rascott247 July 17, 2017 at 9:08 pm #
Sola
I can’t say that I know whether White has ever believed the gospel but what is clear to me is that he is above reproach and thinks he holds the key to not only interpreting scripture but deciding what parts belong and what parts are forgeries. And his Muslim friends use his words to attack the Bible.
rascott247 July 26, 2017 at 7:57 pm #
Darrel
You seem to have a mastery of discerning whether people are saved or not as well as whether they have had the wicked one take their mind. I have made many critical comments concerning JW and his IFD I am hardly diverting from criticism of him. I have not judge JW’s, JP’s or anybody’s salvation.
rascott247 July 26, 2017 at 1:08 pm #
Darrel
OK you were not questioning JP’s salvation (JW’s yes). But if JP is saved then what is the danger of him giving JW a second of his time?
I included the time stamp so there would be no question as to whose comments these are.
I also just now saw this…
rascott247 July 26, 2017 at 2:12 pm #
A “true” believer is any person who has believed in Jesus for the gift of life based on His death and resurrection as the Son of God. I know where you stand Lyn but you’ll have to find another verse to prove your point because Phil 1:6 is about the good work the Philippians did in financially and otherwise supporting Paul’s ministry (Acts 16, Phil 4:14-20). Phil 4:17 “Not that I seek the gift, but I seek the fruit that abounds to your account”. Paul is saying that the Philippians have fruit through Paul because of their generosity. This passage has nothing to do with “true” verse “false believers. Guess what, their good work is with us to this day in Paul’s epistles.
Take off your TULIP glasses you will see better.
Take off my ‘tulip glasses’? Now tell me, who has a problem with one’s theology?
I suppose that was a slam because I stated this, ‘Holding to free will causes one to stumble on passages like Phil. 1:6’. Your retaliation went unnoticed until now…..
“Darrel
OK you were not questioning JP’s salvation (JW’s yes). But if JP is saved then what is the danger of him giving JW a second of his time?” Why didn’t you jump on Darrel for questioning White’s salvation?
Wait a minute. I am wrong for not jumping on Sola then I am wrong for jumping on Darrel then for not jumping on Darrel? I am just plain wrong!
It was Darrel that had one saved and one not with the same theology…contradiction.). My point (after asking questions about that double standard) we cannot judge somebody’s salvation by the theology they may now hold to and that is jumping on everybody I suppose. Lyn I am through.
BTW “I stand corrected” is really not an apology. It’s hard to apologize to people you really dislike though.
lyn, it sounds like you’re having a bad day. I don’t mean that flippantly, but I am concerned that you have seized upon what SEEMS like a defense of Darrel at all costs and it has caused a lot of confusion and turmoil among the brethren. No one who comes here as a teacher (as Darrel, among others, does) is perfect. Yet, it seems like Darrel can do no wrong and RS can do no right in your eyes.
Maybe it’s time to let it go and see if we can learn from this. Where is the spirit of love among the brethren? With the factions being formed here, it seems more like Corinth than Berea. Even the Corinthians corrected their behavior by heeding Paul’s teaching and admonishment. Let us do the same.
berlorac
I am having a hard time understanding folks jumping on Darrel for being harsh and judgmental, yet when I read through these comments, most have been harsh towards James White. It seems we can pick and choose. I ask the same, where is the spirit of love? May God forgive all of us for our condescending attitudes, pride, and every other sin that may be involved.
I agree, let us do the same, may the Lord richly bless you
Thanks, lyn. Did you see my response to you above? July 28, 2017 at 4:56 pm
RS, I would defend you if I could figure out what I was defending! Seriously, I’m a bit confused by all the back and forth and, frankly, don’t have the time to keep up.
No problem B
I think it was personal but lyn was quoting you and saying it was me and making a double standard out of my quote and yours.
Lyn,
“…enough time with wasted with immature whiny babies”
Indeed!
Ever tried to reason with a drunk? or someone entrenched in a cult? or someone so hung up on their own ego and their own agenda that it quickly becomes pointless? I know you have, probably too many times to stomach yet another one.
Some people are just plain rude, they refuse to address concerns voiced and seldom, if ever answer a question in a straight up manner. They employ lies, mischaracterizations of others words, and never, NEVER admit to doing wrong, even when busted. They are adept at changing the subject to deflect any guilt away from themselves. All the while claiming to be “serving God” a some sort of champion watchman, or regulator of others actions, thoughts and words. Sad to find this type naming the name of Christ.
“Yes, I said Q instead of Sola, however, the double standard by some here is the issue, not who actually made the statement.”
It matters to Q, words being attributed to me that I never made. My comments are usually pretty short and easy to find and I never said anything like it.
lyn should have corrected her mistake about attributing something to me once she became aware of her mistake. If she has I didn’t see it.
This will be my FINAL response, I did correct myself, ““Yes, I said Q instead of Sola”. This has been beaten to death. I am moving on and will not respond to anymore comments concerning this matter.
Good day
.
It’s time to MAN-UP, boys.
What a courageous lot speaks here. Not one of you, with the exception of Maggie [thanks again, Maggie] has spoken directly to me about what you think was “wrong” concerning my comments. Spineless wonders all! Instead, you talk around me as if I were not listening and would not find out the truth; to make matters far worse you perform a gang style beat-down on Lyn because she dared expose (and rightfully so) the blatant, un-Christ like hypocrisy of the lot of you. If ever there was a case of cannibalism this is it. Perhaps you big burly men thought that Lyn would crumble and capitulate to your demands, but she stood firm, didn’t she. Proud you must be, boys, keep the rancid fruit coming.
It is sooooooooooo very obvious here that some do not seek to glorify the Lord Jesus, but promote themselves and their own sick, ego-laden agenda. Reading comprehension skills are non-existent, most disturbingly when it comes to the Word of God. Today is a good day to repent of this wickedness. Reread your own comments and excuse yourselves if you will (you know who you are). There is no need to further embarrass the perpetrators of this beat-down (in the name of Christ?? really???) as you have embarrassed yourselves quite well. Since the beat down was in public view, your apology to Lyn should be public as well. If I have become your enemy for speaking the truth, so be it. May the Lord grant us all the repentance necessary to be pleasing to Him.
Here then, is my official comments policy for Berean Research:
No attacking other commenters.
Use Scripture, not ad hominems. (See, “What is an ad hominem?“)
Q, I am unable to send to the email address listed under Comments Policy. Have you had any success?
Hi Maggie, I sent an email one time on an unrelated issue and did not receive a reply. The email did show as sent.
Hello Darrel – I started typing comments several times then deleted before posting so as to keep out of the mess. But here now is what you wrote to show what does not come over nice to me as I read it, even if written about others and not at me personally. Can you see how you are belittling others and using sarcastic and hurtful words and phrases:-
“It’s time to MAN-UP, boys.
What a courageous lot speaks here…… Spineless wonders all! ………. a gang style beat down…. the blatant, un-Christ like hypocrisy of the lot of you……. a case of cannibalism….. you big burly men ……. keep the rancid fruit coming.
It is sooooooooooo very obvious here that some do not seek to glorify the Lord Jesus, but promote themselves and their own sick, ego-laden agenda. (and I ask – how do you know this Darrel?) Reading comprehension skills are non-existent, most disturbingly….. repent of this wickedness………. the perpetrators of this beat-down ……… you have embarrassed yourselves quite well. ”
And also the earlier repetition of “immature whiny babies”.
I am not looking for a reply from you Darrel. Just trying to faithfully point out what is obvious to some of us who are just on-lookers. To not reply is not to be a ‘spineless wonder’. As was pointed out earlier by someone, it can be fear. Even though I wonder why I fear just a name in a comments section! Or it could be grace and not trying to provoke things further.
Susan,
Are you ok with beat down of Lyn, the blatant hypocrisy of those who took part in the same? Why have you no words of admonishment for them? Lies are ok with you? Do you not see what is happening here? Guess not. Shame.
Every time someone plays the “love card” and singles out only one individual it raises huge and multiple red flags. It is the age old ploy of the wicked one to try and silence a person when they speak the truth. If I have spoken anything not according to Scripture then by all means unload on me. But leave the “love card” and the “tone card” in the sand box where you found it, cause it ain’t gonna work on me. If you have a problem with my “tone” then it’s your problem since you have no problem with anyone else’s tone. If you think it’s mine would not a call to prayer be in order? But no, no call to prayer has been declared by any of my learned detractors. Why is that, do you suppose? Don’t you find it odd that all the whining is one-sided? I guess not. No doubt this comment will only inflame those of the “love-card” and “tone-card” ilk, but I do not seek any man’s approval, nor their praise. I have One that I must answer to (as do you). Instead of “calming down” as some have stealthily demanded perhaps it is time to “calm up” What do you think, SusanJ?
Darrel.
You didn’t address a thing SusanJ said and went off with another logical fallacy. She simply pointed out your unnecessary name calling and ad-hominem attacks, which BTW is against the comments policy of this site and not how adults have beneficial conversations, and gave you a possible differing motive. How about making your points with well thought out arguments and follow the comments policies instead.
Also keep in mind no one is required to read or comment to what others post, especially if they never saw it, which would be another possible motive.
Thank you, SusanJ
John 13:34-35; Romans 12:10, 13:8, 14:13, 15:7; 1 Corinthians 12:25; Galatians 5:13, 5:15, 6:2; Ephesians 4:2, 4:16, 4:32, 5:21; Philippians 2:3-5; Colossians 3:13, 3:16; 1 Thessalonians 4:9, 5:11, 5:15; 2 Thessalonians 1:3; Hebrews 3:13, 10:24; James 4:11; 1 Peter 3:8; 1 John 4:7, 4:11-12
To rebuke a brother in the Lord does not mean abusive language or intimidation. Consider Paul’s rebuke of Peter in Syrian Antioch (Galatians 2:11-21), how that he simply asked Peter a question concerning his behavior and then explained the answer so that all would be taught and edified. There was no harsh language or angry tone.
Christ and the Apostles saved the more rude language for the false teachers, those who professed Christ but were ravenous wolves, teaching the brethren false doctrine and spurring them on to unrighteous behavior. But for the brethen, the rebukes and the admonishments were devoid of such language; rather, such rebukes were done in love with all patience, seeking to teach rather than humiliate. It is the grace of God that will humble those who are His.
The word “contentious” also comes to mind in this situation.
Yes, Maggie, you’re right. There is a difference between contending for the faith and being contentious. Thank you for pointing that out.
Maggie I hope you understand that I was only trying to correct the record concerning misquotes and misrepresentation about what I had written. I was attacked for not saying a word to Sola but this is not true I did speak up. Then I was attacked for being harsher (subjective) on Darrel than I was on Sola. This was done by attributing someone else’s quote to me and juxtaposing it with a quote from me over and over again. I tried to correct the record but was told that I was being quoted verbatim; again untrue. I was also called a whiny baby. Then finally I was questioned as to why I did not “jump” on Darrel after being accused in many comments of “jumping” on him. Now Darrel is claiming that nobody spoke to him directly (talking around him) yet it was the direct replies to him that set somebody off to start this whole mixed up affair. You can make this stuff up!
I implore anyone seeking clarity in this matter to read through the thread and see who has been harsh as well as gotten the facts/names/quotes repeatedly wrong. With that I am done with this matter.
RS, sorry, I didn’t mean that directed at you at all. Or at B.
I hate that so many on this thread are stirred up, feeling attacked. Once someone starts a harsh attack, it may be good to just email the moderator as stated in the Comments Policy.
And my remarks concerning love and rebukes was not aimed at anyone in particular, just a general teaching on love and how we treat one another even when we disagree.
B, thank you for the reminder.
Q, Maggie, Susan,
One of your buds, berlorac, used an ad hominem slur to ward me but I see nothing but praise for his words and no reprimand. Why? Answer the question and quit being rude.
The ‘beat’ goes on, you’ve simply switched targets. Why? Answer the question don’t be rude.
It’s not an ad hominem “attack” when the proof is readily available. So why did you say that ? Answer the question. Don’t be rude.
And finally, boys and girls, just what is it that you seek of me? How about making your points with well thought out arguments and follow the comments policy instead. Oh, wait, to say that would mean that I was alluding to one or all of you not being very bright and that would qualify as an ad hominem attack, would it not? Answer the question. Don’t be rude. Oh no, that was a quote from Mr. Q or is it Ms. Q—who knows, you’ve never said and lest I be further eviscerated (look it up, I love that word) I’ll not judge one’s gender until properly and courteously informed. You demand that I follow the comment policy of this blog but are you not guilty of breaking them yourselves in the recent beat down of Lyn? Answer the question. Don’t be rude. Did any of the participants in that beat down apologize to Lyn? Not here. Answer the question. Don’t be rude. Why don’t you demand reconciliation or could it be that you have participated in the beat down either overtly or by silence and can’t bring yourself to admit it? Answer the question. Don’t be rude.
You want me to answer your concerns? Then each of you answer ALL my questions first and then we can talk—not before. I have not yet begun to “calm up”.
eviscerated; Disembowel (past tense of eviscerate)
For the nescient. ; )
update
Justin Peters has just joined the ranks of the heretical by siding with and finding no fault in the antichrist enabler, James White, for his recent descent to the fast track of becoming a muslim.
Dear God,
Please intervene in the spewing of nonsense by uptight, repressed “Christian” women who want everyone to be as miserable and paranoid and unhappy as they are. Please and thank you.
Signed,
Everyone in the world