False Teachers and Deadly Doctrines

Blogger, author and book reviewer Tim Challies has a new series: Deadly Doctrines.  In his first installment he defines what doctrine is and has a helpful table.  He reminds us that:

The Christian’s responsibility is clear: We are to learn God’s truth by searching God’s Word. We must carefully evaluate every teaching according to God’s unfailing standard. What passes the test is sound doctrine, and what fails the test is false doctrine.

Challies lays out eight terrible consequences of false doctrine.  Discover what those consequences are….

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness. 2 Tim 3:16 Photo from Living Simply In Abundance

The heaven tourism fad, there was the best-selling novel that reframed the doctrine of the Trinity. Meanwhile, the largest church in America is led by a man whose platitudes are indistinguishable from fortune cookies. But it’s not just authors and church leaders who are swerving away from the truth. Theologians and laypersons alike are abandoning traditional understandings of manhood and womanhood, of marriage and sexuality. Never has it been more important for Christians to commit themselves to rejecting false doctrine and pursuing sound doctrine, to ensure they are following teachers of truth, not peddlers of error.

In a new series of articles, we will consider false doctrine, sound doctrine, and how to train ourselves to distinguish between them. We will see how God calls us to respond to false and sound doctrine, as well as false and sound teachers. In this opening article, we will briefly define the term “doctrine,” examine the two different kinds of doctrine, and then suggest eight terrible consequences of false doctrine.

Defining Doctrine

Doctrine simply means “teaching.” Doctrine describes what Christians believe based on the entirety of the Bible. Because God has given us a completed revelation of himself in the Scriptures, we can search this revelation and arrive at confident conclusions about his nature and works.

In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word that parallels the English word “doctrine” typically refers to truth revealed by God, and it is most often rendered as “teaching,” “learning,” or “instruction.” The word translated from the New Testament Greek has a wider range of possibilities. It can refer to either the content of the teaching or the act of teaching. Titus 1:9 captures both of these uses when it describes a qualification and task of the elder: “He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught [“as doctrined”], so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.” It is most often translated as “doctrine(s)” or “teaching(s)” and is frequently modified by adjectives such as “sound,” “false,” “good,” or “different.”

Doctrine should be distinguished from theology, though they are closely related and often used interchangeably. In the strictest sense, theology is the study of God—his existence, his knowability, his attributes, and so on. But generally, when people refer to “theology,” they have in mind systematic theology, the logical ordering of the doctrines derived from the Bible. Doctrine, then, is the broader term that refers to the Bible’s teaching regardless of how it is categorized.

Two Kinds of Doctrine

Doctrines can be categorized in many different ways. Theologians arrange them systematically, thematically, biblically, and historically, to name just a few. Each of these arrangements presents a distinct way to collect and summarize what Christians believe to be true. From such summaries, we have derived some complicated terms like prolegomena, pneumatology, hamartiology, and soteriology.

Yet doctrine can also be categorized in the simplest terms: It is either true or false. To determine if a doctrine is true or false in its content, we can use biblical terminology to ask several questions. In origin, is it from God the Creator or from God’s creation? In authority, is it biblical or unbiblical? In consistency, is it familiar or unfamiliar? In quality, is it sound or unsound? In benefit, is it healthy or unhealthy? In value, is it profitable or unprofitable? When we have properly evaluated the doctrine, we ascertain our responsibility toward it: we must either hold to it or reject it.

Perhaps it is helpful to lay this out in a table:   Continue reading

Installments in the series are at the bottom of page

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124 Responses to False Teachers and Deadly Doctrines

  1. Edwitness February 6, 2017 at 12:05 pm #

    “Blogger, author and book reviewer Tim Challies has a new series: Deadly Doctrines. In his first installment he defines what doctrine is and has a helpful table. He reminds us that: The Christian’s responsibility is clear: We are to learn God’s truth by searching God’s Word. We must carefully evaluate every teaching according to God’s Word.”

    A hearty amen to that!!! Just what I’ve been saying all this time.

    Blessings:-}

    • Q February 6, 2017 at 12:31 pm #

      And yet you come up with an unorthodox interpretation in many areas as many have pointed out.

  2. Manny1962 February 6, 2017 at 1:13 pm #

    Amy, sent you email, latest comments section disappeared from home page, so we can’t follow along! ☺

    • Q February 6, 2017 at 1:22 pm #

      Manny, I sent Amy and Marsha an email about the comments section, I haven’t heard back.

      I made a couple of comments regarding Ed on Leaving the – NAR Church: Malcolm’s story – thread.

      • Q February 6, 2017 at 1:23 pm #

        And one asking lyn why she was banned?

        • lyn February 6, 2017 at 8:10 pm #

          Hi Q,

          I was banned after mentioning John MacArthur’s false teaching concerning the mark – it was ‘off topic’, even though another person commented on it prior to me. It’s all good :^)
          I am using the computer at work while on my lunch hour, that’s the only way I can comment here.

          • Manny1962 February 6, 2017 at 8:41 pm #

            Hi Lyn,

            I’m still confused over your banishment, what about JM got you banned? I went all over the net, searching for the mark of the beast controversy, I’ll be frank, I was perplexed and alarmed over JM’s remark over taking the mark of the beast then still be able to be saved after, contrary to what scripture teaches, I asked many to clarify and no one did. I even thought that perhaps JM meant it was possible with God to save someone after receiving mark, of course with God all things are possible, except God does not contradict Himself, and scripture is beyond clear with this warning: he who takes the mark of the beast is condemned. That remark turned many against each other.

          • Amy Spreeman February 15, 2017 at 7:06 am #

            That was a long time ago. Lyn is not banned. That particular conversation got very emotional for several people, and I stepped in.

      • Manny1962 February 6, 2017 at 9:12 pm #

        Thanks Q! Hopefully issue will be fixed soon!

  3. berlorac February 6, 2017 at 2:58 pm #

    Interesting timing on the posting of his article. Amy, Marsha? Have you been following the comments posted over the last few days? If we are to heed Challies’ teaching on false doctrine, then the false doctrines of Edwitness need to be examined. I would expect the moderators of this blog would see that Edwitness’ beliefs are not Biblical and that he not continue to have a forum within which to lead many astray.

    • Edwitness February 6, 2017 at 4:18 pm #

      I have done nothing but to quote the scriptures and let what they actually say be the doctrine I believe. As any Christian who practices the interpretive scholarship of a Berean. While you all have assumed and implied your way into believing the Augustinian view of the Bible.
      I even told you that it was not the Father who killed Jesus.
      And while you all scoffed and mocked I provided scriptural evidence that says exactly that. 1Cor.2:8- “Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, THEY WOULD NOT HAVE CRUCIFIED THE LORD OF GLORY.”

      Yet I am to be the one that you would call for shunning at a website called “Berean research”? What a hypocrite.
      You all better wake up before you forever miss the mark, Jesus Christ. You are well on your way to that end.
      Blessings:-}

      • berlorac February 6, 2017 at 4:47 pm #

        Edwitness, you have been shown several Scriptures to prove that God laid our iniquities on His Son; that it pleased the Father to bruise Him; and that the Lord willingly gave Himself for us.

        I do not deny that the Jews and Romans physically harmed the Lord and physically hoisted Him up on the Cross to die. The Scriptures make this plain.

        These two great facts — 1) the Son bearing our sins in His own body on the tree by the determinate counsel of the Father, and 2) the carrying out of a crucifixion by the earthly rulers — are reconciled by faith. You choose to see only one side of it and I choose to see both sides.

        This is not the only doctrine to which you apply your one-sided logic. So, yes, I am calling for action to be taken by the moderators because these are foundational doctrines of Christianity.

      • Q February 6, 2017 at 4:57 pm #

        Ed I answered you on the other thread where you made a case for that, here it is again –

        “It was God’s will for Jesus to suffer and die Isaiah 53:10.

        God created the smith that blows the coals and he can do as he wishes even with instruments of destruction including Satan.”

        Now you are making an accusation against “you all” missing Jesus. One of the first things to learn when interpreting scripture is if you discover something “new” or interpret in a way that no one else has understood it that way before you are probably incorrect and need to open up to what others are saying. Your interpretation is peculiar and you are not interpreting your scriptural references correctly. Remember 2 Peter 1:20 “But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation”.

        And Hebrews 7:7 says “But without any dispute the lesser is blessed by the greater.” You constantly end all of your posts with “Blessings”, are you saying you are the greater?

        It gets old and really doesn’t have any meaning, just vain repetition.

    • lyn February 6, 2017 at 8:48 pm #

      Hi Manny,

      I don’t remember what story it was posted on, I think ‘Faith’ had commented prior to my comment. I had pointed out the false teaching of JM concerning the mark, very dangerous as well. Yes, it was ‘off topic’ but I was responding to a prior comment. When I questioned why I was reprimanded, Amy proceeded to block me. I cannot comment from my home computer.
      This is their blog and if they want to block me, that is their prerogative. I will continue to oppose false teaching when/where I can, regardless of who gets their toes stepped on. I have no ‘pet celeb pastors’, so I don’t care who gets their feelings hurt. We all should have zeal for Christ and His truth, and we all should oppose false teaching/teachers when the opportunity arises. I would rather fear God and stand for His truth than cover up a ‘celebrity’ pastor’s false teachings.
      Blessings to you brother, continue to fight the good fight!

      • Manny1962 February 6, 2017 at 9:21 pm #

        Sister I do miss your insight and zeal for The Lord. So many still cannot see the darkness that has surrounded this world. Never have I seen conditions coalesce so quickly on every front spoken about in scripture, politics, economy, and societies across the world! I can say most people are not paying attention. Ironically, many unbelievers are seeing this and perhaps The Lord is opening their eyes to the point where they cannot come to any other conclusion except this is from The Lord!

        • Lyn February 6, 2017 at 11:06 pm #

          Brother,

          I agree. Many are caught up in the mundane things of this world and do not even see the evil that is increasing everywhere. Deception is rampant, ‘edwitness’ is an example of this. We must be on our guard, many are naming Christ and spewing out strange teachings. May God protect His elect from this delusion that is swallowing up multitudes.

          • Edwitness February 7, 2017 at 12:53 am #

            Sorry for believing what the Bible actually says instead of what I should assume it says so I can fit in with the rest of the cultists that make it up as they go along. How did Q put it, “It appears he takes an over literal aproach to his interpretation and doesn’t understand Systematic Theology.” So now believing what is actually written on the page is “over literal” and does not meet with the standards of systematic theology huh? Hell will be full of people who chose your rendition of systematic theology over the clear teaching of the scriptures.
            Or you are just too lazy to learn what the Bible actually says so you believe what you are told it says.
            Ask your teacher, mentor, pastor, whatever you call him, if what he teaches comes from the teachings of Augustine. He is your teacher, not Jesus, when you believe in the sin nature doctrine. You all have been warned. Your blood is not on my hands.
            Try something new for once. Be like the Bereans and check it out for yourselves.

            Blessings:-}

          • Q February 7, 2017 at 12:52 pm #

            Edwitness,

            Systematic Theology is taking the entirety of what the bible is says on a topic to conclude sound teaching from the entire bible not cherry picking verses to come up with doctrine that is contrary to orthodox Christianity as you are doing.

            You did not address what I said in this thread or others. You are taking advantage of peoples ignorance with the guise of promoting being a Berean.

            Twice now you have accused those of us who disagree with you as not knowing what Augustine taught and who and how it affected Christianity and anyone who does not agree with your unorthodox beliefs as getting our beliefs from some human teacher. I for one do not, 1 John 2:27.

            We are aware of your peculiar beliefs and now you are showing the fruit of those beliefs, anyone who disagrees with you is missing Jesus, which is more like a cultist than a true Christian.

            You insult us and conclude with “Blessings”, no one should buy this baloney.

            Here is link to the “mentor” Ed follows –
            http://phulax.tripod.com/death2life.html

          • Edwitness February 7, 2017 at 3:46 pm #

            Q,
            First of all I want to say I love all of you here. And because I love you I am compelled to tell you the truth. And the proof is in the puddin’ as they say.
            Your beliefs have been shown in our conversations here to come from what you believe the Bible infers, implies, assumes. Q, you have referred to this as “systematic theology”.
            While what I believe, as I have shown, comes from what the scriptures actually say. Then I take what it actually literally says in the whole of the scriptures and believe that. Which you have called an “over literal view” of the scriptures. I call it good exegesis.
            What you call systematic theology is really just you and those like you going to the scriptures to prove what you have already been told is true. Instead of letting the scriptures say what they actually say.
            Like the evolutionist Darwin going out to study nature to prove there was no God. He accomplished this by concluding the theory of evolution. His premise made his research subjective just as yours does for you. Which is really just subjectively isogeting the scriptures instead of exegeting them.
            By believing what is actually written we come to know the God who inspired them. You will never truly know Him any other way. Which creates a scary proposition for you all when you consider what Jesus said about those who build their house on sand as those who believe the sin nature doctrine have. “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Mt7:23
            The evidence is clear that what you all have come to believe is not the clear teaching of the whole of the scriptures. It is however the clear teaching that comes from your “apostle” Augustine. Following a man and not Jesus Himself makes you a cult.
            The case in point being that you all defend the position that the nature of your god required a penalty be paid by Jesus being beaten, tortured, and ultimately murdered in order for this perversion of his justice to be satisfied. This presents a different god than the one presented in the scriptures.
            The God of scripture allowed the demonic realm to use evil men(not all men) to do this because it exposes the works of satan and the love of the Father. The works of satan in the “stealing, killing, and destroying” in the visible events of the cross and those surrounding it.
            And the love of the Father in that His death abolished the law and brought into power the New Testament that delivers(justice) all who will trust in Him from death’s power that was exposed by the cross and events surrounding it.
            The scripture clearly says God did not kill Jesus as you all have argued that He most certainly did. The princes of this world did. Or am I being over literal again Q? Shame on me for believing what the scriptures actually say. Nonsense.
            If we believe we can infer, imply, assume our way to understanding the God of the Bible then any interpretation becomes plausible. Which is why we are told that “no scripture is of any private interpretation”. Assuming, inferring, implying will never allow us to come to the truth that God wants us to know Him through.
            Any one who has accepted the sin nature doctrine and all of the baggage that goes with it has endangered themselves of the fires of hell. Because that is exactly the inspiration of it. The devil.
            You all have much more in common with the rcc at this point than Biblical Christianity. My hope is that your exposure to the truth that I have shown you here will wake you from your slumber to seek the true and living God that is presented to us very literally in the pages of the inspired word of God.

            Blessings:-}

          • Maggie February 7, 2017 at 1:58 pm #

            Well said, Q. It troubles me to think someone would be misled by Ed’s teachings.

          • berlorac February 7, 2017 at 3:09 pm #

            Thanks for that link, Q. That article explains a lot. No wonder Ed fights me tooth and nail over Romans 5:12. His mis-reading of that verse sets up a whole scheme of false teaching. He switches the phrase “death through sin” to say “sin through death.” Further, he and his mentor fail to link up Romans 5:12 with Romans 5:19, the latter of which explains the former.

          • Edwitness February 7, 2017 at 4:58 pm #

            B,
            Even when you twist them to say what you say they do, they still do not say man has a sin nature. But, for those like you who are trying to prove it does instead of simply discovering the truth implication, infer, assume is enough.
            Blessings:-}

          • berlorac February 7, 2017 at 5:05 pm #

            Edwitness, Romans 5:12-19 does not prove a “sin nature.” I never said it did. What it does prove is that when Adam sinned, we all were “set down as sinners.” Sinners in verse 19 is not an adjective; that is, it does not say we are “sinful men” in Adam. It says that we were all “made” or “set down as” sinners in Adam.

            For proof of a sin nature, there are plenty of other Scripture verses. For example, you can find it in this same book of Romans. Paul calls it “the flesh.” And you will see the manifestation of the flesh (sins) throughout Scripture.

          • Edwitness February 7, 2017 at 5:26 pm #

            B,
            We disagree on the mechanics(which expresses who God is), but we agree on the outcome. All have sinned.
            But, the penalty for sin is not imputed where there is no law. And Rom.5:13,14 make it clear that there was no law from Adam to Moses. Therefore the fact that men die was not the result of sin by which death was in turn imputed from Adam. It was the result of Adam, and mankind by extension, being banned from access to the tree of life. The scripture says exactly that in Gen.3:22-24

            Blessings:-}

  4. Rapturesaint February 6, 2017 at 3:08 pm #

    Ephesians 4:14 (NKJV) reads “. . .that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting. . .”

    Because of the scripture above, my family and I have been attending Calvary chapel where the “whole counsel of God” is taught. Book by book, chapter by chapter and verse by verse. In addition, since Prophecy consist of 2/3 of the Bible, Prophecy is updated especially living in a time of the soon return of Jesus Christ in the clouds in the Rapture of the Church.
    We consider Calvary chapel, a type of the Church of Philadelphia described in Revelation chapter 3.

  5. rascott247 February 7, 2017 at 4:48 pm #

    This is literally on the pages of scripture.

    [Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—] Biblical conclusion: All sinned.

    This is literally on the pages of scripture.

    [Romans 5:13-14 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.]— Biblical conclusion: From the time sin entered the world and death through sin until Moses there was no law. Ed reads this as from the time Adam was created there was no law. But at the time Adam was created there was no sin and death. Sin and death entered because Adam transgressed and without law there can be no transgression—Romans 4:15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

    Ed has been show this several times but he chooses to ignore scripture and cling to and spread his humanist views of man and sin.

    • Edwitness February 7, 2017 at 4:56 pm #

      Neither of which actually say man has a sin nature.
      Blessings:-}

      • berlorac February 7, 2017 at 5:08 pm #

        Edwitness, Romans 5:12-19 does not prove a “sin nature.” What it does prove is that when Adam sinned, we all were “set down as sinners.” Sinners in verse 19 is not an adjective; that is, it does not say we are “sinful men” in Adam. It says that we were all “made” or “set down as” sinners in Adam — “through [Adam’s] disobedience the many were made sinners.”

        For proof of a sin nature, there are plenty of other Scripture verses. For example, you can find it in this same book of Romans. Paul calls it “the flesh.” And you will see the manifestation of the flesh (sins) throughout Scripture.

        • Edwitness February 7, 2017 at 5:31 pm #

          B,
          The word ‘flersh’ is sarx. The word for sin is hamartia. And the word for nature is fusis. All are used at one time or another in the scriptures. If Paul intended that we believe man has a sin nature he would have said so. This is what happens when you interpret by imply, infer, assume. You end up making stuff up.

          Blessings:-}

          • berlorac February 7, 2017 at 6:31 pm #

            Sarx is often used by Paul, but he sometimes uses a combination of other words when referring to the flesh. Likewise, sometimes he is talking about flesh as the literally body (flesh and blood) and sometimes he’s talking about the concept of a sinful nature (Romans 7:17-18).

            Once again, you want to see the words “sin nature” and, because you don’t find that phrase, you say it is not a Biblical concept. You pass by the fact that billions of people perished in the flood while only 8 people were found righteous. Yet, you say that man is not sinful by nature because you can’t find the phrase “sin nature.”

            This is what Q means that you are overly literal. Yet, you believe in a Rapture of the Church even you cannot find the word “rapture” anywhere in the Bible. What’s more, you believe in a pre-Trib Rapture even though there’s no verse in the Bible that says, “pre-tribulation rapture.” Therefore, it is hypocritical of you to point out that the phrase “sin nature” isn’t in the Bible and, thus, the concept doesn’t exist.

          • Edwitness February 8, 2017 at 2:09 am #

            B,
            I have addressed the rapture issue already. The word is in the Bible. “Caught up” in KJV and “rapturus” in Latin Vulgate. Same word. 1Thes.4:17. But, I am not in the least dogmatic about the pre trib rapture because it is not absolutely clear like the doctrines of sin and death are.
            Not seeing the phrase ‘sin nature’ in the Bible is only part of the problem. It seems to me that a doctrine that you all are prepared to divide with me over should be stated plainly in the scriptures to give it so much weight. But, it is never stated. Not even one time.
            But, the main thing is it is never taught in the scriptures. When the scripture says man sins it does not say he sins because that is his nature. Not even once. Like I said, Augustine created that scapegoat so he could have something to blame his whoremongering ways on. You never find that teaching in the writings of the apostles. Which is why I said those who believe the sin nature doctrine are disciples of their “apostle” Augustine.
            The problem with that thinking is the scripture says no man is responsible for the sin of another. Exodus 24:16 and Ezekiel 18:20. And that sin is not imputed where there is no law. Rom 4:15 and 5:12
            So, according to the scriptures man can not have Adam’s transgression passed onto him because there was no law from Adam to Moses. And neither would it count against him even if it was.
            This is why when paul says “the wages of sin is death”, he is referring to eternal death. When we die physically,- which all men do because the way is blocked to the tree of life -without having come to know Jesus, we enter into eternal death(eternal separation from God). This is why the sin of the world that Jesus died for, and the Hoily Spirit was sent to reprove the world of, is no faith in Jesus. John16:8,9. This sin is the only sin that can keep anyone from going to heaven. Not knowing Jesus. John14:6 and 17:3
            The scriptures teach that men die because death reigns. Rom.5:13,14. And death reigns because man can no longer eat from the tree of life in the garden. Gen.3:22-24
            In order to understand what the scriptures teach about sin and death we must approach them from a perspective of humility. Which is a teachability before God. We must stop trying to prove some pre conceived notion’s veracity, and instead allow the scriptures by the Holy Spirit to lead us into the truth that is actually written there.
            There are so many holes in the sin nature doctrine that it is laughable that any but the very least informed or most easily deceived person would ever fall for it. Yet here you all are still. “Bereans” who can’t even see it. My hope and prayer is that this is changing as we search the scriptures together.
            As iron sharpens iron. So one man sharpens the countenance of his friend.

            Blessings:-}

  6. lyn February 7, 2017 at 6:38 pm #

    They ban me, yet they let ‘edwitness’ spew out heresy after heresy here, go figure!

    Praying for the brothers here, berlorac and rascott as you do battle with this teacher of lies.

    • Edwitness February 8, 2017 at 2:14 am #

      Lyn,
      It’s not a lie because it disagrees with your view of the scriptures. It’s only a lie if it disagrees with the actual written word in the scriptures. And there is not any of that except from the sin nature doctrine as I have shown.
      Blessings:-}

      • Marinus L March 5, 2017 at 12:11 am #

        Edwitness. Eighty percent of the corrections you made on my comment from feb2/17 subject ” Have Christian lost the art of biblical discernment, were not biblical. I would like to debate on these, but you stopped replying on my comment, why? You went on and on and on with snooopie remember him?

  7. SusanJ February 8, 2017 at 12:29 pm #

    One thing I have detected from many of the comments on this website is that we are all most concerned to be true and faithful students of the Word of God. And yet in many matters the simple fact is we come to different conclusions. As I have asked before – who decides what are secondary matters or not and what is the right conclusion in these matters. I am sure there was only one meaning to the original hearers but over the years the meanings have become many. Who is right?

    Could there be a mutual respect and a conscious decision to just let it all be, unless someone is genuinely asking a question? And could there be an avoidance of trying to get one’s own theological point across when making comments? This website exists to expose the nonsense going on in the church today and is the reason I read it. But this kind of going back and forth gets nowhere and leads to insults. It is also time wasting and confusing and damaging to young Christians.

    As I may have mentioned before, one of our daughters got to a place of being unable to trust the Bible because people she knew and loved and who sincerely loved the Lord could not agree on some of the words in this book. I certainly believe it right to be a ‘good Berean’ and have been settled on many doctrinal points for a long time. It is important to ‘contend’ for the truth but I despair when I see the same arguments over and over here. We are never going to agree and so it would be best left alone.

    If any of you would like to share it, I would love to hear of any opportunity you had to share the Gospel with someone this week.

    • berlorac February 8, 2017 at 3:24 pm #

      Yes, I shared the Gospel with Edwitness several times over the last week, but he has yet to say he believes that Christ died for his sins — sin, in general, maybe — but not his personal sins. As you know Susan, the Gospel that one must believe is that “Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and was buried, and has been raised on the third day according to the Scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

      Is this not of utmost importance? Is it not important to contend for the faith? For the only Gospel that saves? And if one does not believe this Gospel, is it okay for him to continue to teach many other false doctrines that would lead people astray?

      If we get the nature of man and sin and the substitutionary atonement wrong, then it is impossible to believe the Gospel that we are sinners, but that Christ died for the forgiveness of our sins. There is only one correct interpretation of this Gospel message and if we do not contend for this most basic doctrine, how can we preach the Gospel?

      BTW, you’ve created a false dichotomy by assuming that those of us who contend for the faith here must not be preaching the Gospel elsewhere.

      • Edwitness February 8, 2017 at 6:48 pm #

        B,
        Do you really think that when I have written to you that I too believe that “all have sinned” I am not including myself? I am part of that “all”. The sin He forgave me of was the sin the Holy Spirit was sent into the world to reprove it, and that includes ME, of. That I did “not believe on Him”. John16:8,9. This is why I have eternal life. Because I now know Him.
        John17:3
        The law only applied to Israel. And as you well know by now, where there is no law sin is not imputed(Rom4:15 and 5:12). So the Gentiles never having the law (Rom.2:14)means we are not responsible for the breaking of it before God. Those sins have no effect on Gentiles. Therefore we have no need for the forgiveness of the sins that are sins under the law. We have never been responsible to the law.
        _____________________________________________________

        The reason Adam died is because he could not eat from the tree of life after God sent him out of the garden. Not because his nature changed. There is no mention in this passage or any other that would lead one to believe that the nature of Adam ever changed from the time of his creation. What he knew changed. Not his nature.
        From the time he was created and air was breathed into his nostrils Adam was a “living soul”(Gen.2:7). The definition of a “living soul” is “a breathing creature”. Not a life giving spirit(1Cor.15:45). Adam was made in God’s image. But, it is clear from what the passage says that did not include a spirit. So, when Adam ate the fruit he did not die spiritually. He could not because he did not have one. This is Bible. What you all have chosen to believe is not.
        So there is no sin nature to pass to the rest of mankind. We die for the same reason Adam died. We don’t have access to the tree of life either. It’s that simple. All the debating about the sin nature is decided in the events that happened in the garden and their consequences. And the scriptural account clearly teaches that Adam would have lived forever if he had been able to continue to eat from the tree of life(Gen.3:22-24). This is why all men die. It is not a penalty and sin is not a nature. It is an act. A choice.
        That is why you do not find the phrase “sin nature” anywhere in the Bible. Because it does not exist. Flee from the rcc harlot.

        Blessings:-}

      • Edwitness February 8, 2017 at 7:19 pm #

        B,
        It is clear from what you have said that you are not clear on what the gospel actually is.
        For instance, Is it possible to understand the Bible saying “Jesus died for our sins” in a different way than you have, and still be understanding it Biblically?
        My contention is, not only can it be, it is. Because you have understood it, not Biblically, but through the veil of the “sin nature” doctrine as handed down by Augustine.
        The sin nature doctrine causes it’s adherents to define the word “for” to mean “in place of”. But, the word “for” can also mean “on behalf of”. With this definition it conforms precisely with what actually happened when Jesus died.
        Can a person die in the place of someone who is already dead? No. According to the scriptures we were already under death’s power before Jesus died on the cross. This makes it impossible for Jesus to have died in our place. So, the meaning that He died on our behalf must be applied here.
        And He did not die physically in our place because we all still die. So it must be referring to eternal death. That which we are subject to after physical death if we have not come to faith in Jesus.
        So, what Jesus did by dying for us was to enter into the death WITH us (on our behalf). And by His resurrection He made the way for us to enter into life through faith in Him. This is what it means when the Bible says Jesus died for us. He could not die in our place because we were already dead.

        Blessings:-]

    • berlorac February 8, 2017 at 6:09 pm #

      And, Susan, I would much rather come here to fellowship with like-minded believers and not have to constantly contend for the faith. But when the wolf enters, I won’t sit back and do nothing. And it may be that the wolf isn’t really a wolf, but we don’t know that until the light of the Scriptures makes it manifest. We have to let Scripture be the deciding factor. When a man’s core beliefs don’t line up with Scripture, then we have to assume he’s a wolf in sheep’s clothing and take action.

      • lyn February 8, 2017 at 6:32 pm #

        Amen brethren. I find it troubling that some say there are ‘secondary’ matters concerning the bible! Isn’t it all primary? Isn’t it all of the utmost importance?
        Yes, contend for the faith when wolves enter. It would be nice if there were stricter moderation on false teachings in the comment section, they have no problem banning someone for speaking out about MacArthur’s false teachings, yet they let ‘edwitness’ post incessantly here spewing out one lie after another.

  8. Manny1962 February 8, 2017 at 4:57 pm #

    I guess we have to ask ourselves, what are secondary matters? Is Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura important enough to question anyone not affirming it? In these days of contemplative prayer, seeker friendly congregations, Chrislam and mysticism infused churchianity is questioning an issue? Of course it is! Paul would never have backed down, he even called out Peter. Having an opinion on pre, mid, or post grub rapture is not a salvific isuue and we shouldn’t lose fellowship over that, but questioning the efficacy of Jesus Christ’s work on the cross is very much so.

    “As I may have mentioned before, one of our daughters got to a place of being unable to trust the Bible because people she knew and loved and who sincerely loved the Lord could not agree on some of the words in this book” ……. I’m sorry it takes more than that to wreck one’s faith. I’ve been in company that has tried to wreck mine, company that I trusted, but it came down to who do I trust my bible or my friends, at the end of the day the bible proved trustworthy.

    • Edwitness February 8, 2017 at 6:50 pm #

      Amen to that manny:-)
      Blessings:-}

  9. Maggie February 8, 2017 at 6:27 pm #

    Being Bereans, it’s natural that we enter into discussions about doctrine. Sometimes discussions go too far, become insulting, and too focused on lesser issues. It’s hard keeping a balance, and comfort levels for disagreement vary. I think it’s remarkable that we can come here and share our faith and understanding, especially concerning discernment.

  10. lyn February 8, 2017 at 6:54 pm #

    “As I may have mentioned before, one of our daughters got to a place of being unable to trust the Bible because people she knew and loved and who sincerely loved the Lord could not agree on some of the words in this book.”
    This seems to be the new thing, avoid doctrine, for it ‘divides’. If someone no longer trusts the bible, you have to question whether or not they truly are born from above. The elect of God cannot fall away because God is the one who upholds His sheep, and He will lose none. No one can snatch His true sheep out of His hand. Yes, we learn to trust in God as He puts us through trials and tribulations. But nothing will ever separate us from God. ‘For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God, not of works lest any man boast’ Eph. 2:8-9. True, saving faith is given by God to His elect. This truth rattles the cages of the ‘free willers’, so be it. The bible does not lie.
    An excellent teaching on the Greek grammatical construction of Eph. 2:8-9 can be found at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3dodm97SY4

    • Manny1962 February 8, 2017 at 8:09 pm #

      This is the crux, people don’t want to offend at the cost of truth! What I’m saying is, if Paul was not concerned with “stepping” on toes and actually calling out some by names, why can’t we? If the truth is paramount, what matters more………offending or coddling? If someone is peddling error he/she must be held accountable no matter who they are and what description they hold, no one is above scripture.
      I do warn everyone, as the darkness gets deeper, so called secondary issues are coming to the forefront, it might just be that issue termed secondary are as important as the “rest” of the “important” issues. We all have to be in the word and in prayer daily and I mean daily, this is our vaccine against the world. Heresy and apostasy grows daily and we are called to spread the fragrance of the Gospels…….The fragrance of life to some and the stench of death to others. We can’t afford to compromise, we just don’t have the time.

      • lyn February 8, 2017 at 8:20 pm #

        Amen Manny, well said. Time is so very short isn’t it? Truth is offensive and it does divide. Christ said “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.” Most just want to get along, at the expense of truth. They will swallow error for the sake of unity. This ecumenism is exactly what the church of Satan looks like, and it’s gaining steam. This one world church will NOT be offensive, it will not speak of Christ exclusively. It will join hands with dead religions again, for the sake of ‘unity’. After all, why can’t we just get along right?

        • Manny1962 February 8, 2017 at 10:36 pm #

          Amen and amen! That’s exactly what’s happening today! People compromise because they’re afraid of being labeled a homophobe, judgemental, narrow minded, unloving, intolerant and any and all the words they can hurl because of the truth. That’s why their first attack is on the veracity of scripture and the person of Jesus Christ.

          By twisting the truth to their demonic theology they try undermine the faith of the weak. This is when we must stand strong, whether it’s our own family, a best friend or a rockstar preacher! The truth is paramount…….

  11. berlorac February 8, 2017 at 7:12 pm #

    The glorious Gospel: “Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, was buried, and was raised on the third day” (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Christ died for our sins — plural.

    “In Whom we have our redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins…” (Ephesians 1:7). sins — plural.

    “In Whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins” (Colossians 1:14). sins — plural.

    • Manny1962 February 8, 2017 at 8:12 pm #

      Amen B! Christ is the way, the only way……….We are steeped in sin and unless He grants us his mercy and grace we are doomed!

    • Q February 8, 2017 at 9:02 pm #

      Good words here and throughout this thread berlorac.

      By Edwitness’ logic he has to repent of death so he can become alive to God so he can know Him so he will no longer be an idolater then he will believe in Jesus to have his sin’s forgiven although sin is really not the problem but death is…and no one understands this nonsense but him and one other guy.

      • rascott247 February 8, 2017 at 9:19 pm #

        Q
        Yep! They must need a third real bad.

        • berlorac February 8, 2017 at 9:32 pm #

          That does seem to be the sad fact. No pleasure in this whole affair…

        • Edwitness February 8, 2017 at 10:15 pm #

          Rascott,
          There are many of us. I talk on the phone and online with a large group.
          Blessings:-}

        • Q February 8, 2017 at 10:40 pm #

          Notice Edwitness agrees with how I laid out his theology.

      • Edwitness February 8, 2017 at 10:04 pm #

        Ed’s logic. I can speak for myself. Besides, you make a big enough mess out of your own beliefs.
        New Testament sin, is to not believe in Jesus.
        “And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
        Of sin, because they believe not on me;”
        John16:8,9

        If the work of God is to believe on Him. Then the work of sin is not believing on him.
        “Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”
        John6:28,29

        Repentance brings forgiveness of sin.
        “And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
        Luke 24:47

        So, coming to Him by faith is repentance. Because to do so you must turn from the false god to the true God.
        “For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;”
        1Thes.1:9
        And
        “And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:”
        Acts 14:15

        The Jew was responsible to the law. Therefore there is one more thing Jesus’ death accomplished for them that, because the Gentile is not under the law, was not necassary for the Gentile. This is written to Hebrews for Israel.
        “And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions THAT WERE UNDER THE FIRST TESTAMENT, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.”
        Heb.9:15

        This forgiveness and removal of the law made the Jew free to marry Christ along with the Gentile.
        “Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”
        Rom.7:4
        And
        “But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”
        Rom.7:6

        Repentance is not begging forgiveness for all the naughty things you ever did. When we repent from sin we are turning from the false god to the true God. Receive the freedom Christ died to provide for you.

        Blessings:-}

        • Q February 8, 2017 at 10:31 pm #

          “There are many of us. I talk on the phone and online with a large group.”

          Where can I find this group?

          • rascott247 February 8, 2017 at 10:51 pm #

            Q, I do. If the only “New Testament sin” Is unbelief, and he believes, then he must not sin at all. I bet he has a doozy way of explaining away 1 John 1:8. Also where in scripture can one find the term” New Testament sin”? The doctrine can’t exist (Ed’s rules) if he can’t find it.

          • Edwitness February 9, 2017 at 12:51 am #

            Context is very important rascott.

            6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
            (Sin is darkness. If we sin we walk in darkness)

            7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
            (How many times can we be cleansed from ALL sin? Once.)

            8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
            (If someone says they have no sin they are not saved. Because we must recognize that Jesus is Lord to be saved. This makes us walk in the light. If John were talking about the Christian having sin, he would not say two chapters later that he who sins is of the devil, he who is born of God can not sin, and whosoever sins has not seen Him neither known Him. Therefore this passage applies to the person who does not know Jesus.)

            9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
            (Again, how many times can God cleanse you from ALL unrighteousness? Once. Because if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,) Heb.10:26

            10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
            (We must acknowledge that we do not know Him and turn to Him to be saved. If we have not acknowledged this His word is not in us.)

            This is written to Christians who were being told a lie by gnostics that the body was sin (sound familiar) and therefore a holy God could never live in a body of sin. So to them Jesus did not really come in the flesh. To them He was only an apparition. Which is why the test John told these Christians to test the spirit with was whether or not the spirit would confess that Jesus had come in the flesh. 1John4:2 and 2John1:7

            Blessings:-}

          • Q February 8, 2017 at 11:05 pm #

            rascott247,

            He is saying he does not sin, only death can cause sin in his theology.

            It’s nonsense.

          • Edwitness February 9, 2017 at 1:02 am #

            Q,
            Death does not cause sin(John16:8,9). It establishes the circumstances that make it very difficult for the natural man to avoid it.
            Blessings:-}

          • rascott247 February 8, 2017 at 11:33 pm #

            I know he is Q. He’s been saying it without saying it in those words. When pressed he uses long convoluted post in which he accuses us of being in danger of…get this…an unforgivable sin. Disagree with Ed and you are in danger of hell fire. How is it that he is allowed to comment here?

            Thank God for all here who helped him expose himself. Special shout out to B. And nice meeting you Q.

          • Edwitness February 9, 2017 at 12:01 am #

            Sorry, they are private emails. But, I gave you that website. You can contact him.
            Blessings:-}

          • rascott247 February 9, 2017 at 4:25 pm #

            Ed
            1John
            1 John 1:5-10 This is the message which we (apostles) have heard from Him and declare to you(readers), that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have FELLOWSHIP with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.7 BUT IF WE WALK IN THE LIGHT as He is in the light, we (apostles) have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.8 If we say that we (apostles) HAVE NO SIN (not HAD but HAVE present tense), we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

            —Two Things: God is without taint of sin, but people (even apostles) have the taint of sin v5 states a fellowship-related truth v3 presents the idea that ordinary-sinful men can have fellowship with God. V5 poses the issue that God is without any taint whatsoever. How can sinful man (even apostles) have fellowship with a holy God? v6 would be a false word by an apostle about fellowship. v7 would be a true word by an apostle about fellowship. v8 would be a false word by an apostle about sin. v9 would be a true word by an apostle about sin.v10 would be a false word by an apostle about sin.

            John’s Gospel
            John 13:6-14 Then He came to Simon Peter. And Peter said to Him, “Lord, are You washing my feet?” 7 Jesus answered and said to him, “What I am doing you do not understand now, but you will know after this.”8 Peter said to Him, “You shall never wash my feet!” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.”9 Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head!”10 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.”12 So when He had washed their feet, taken His garments, and sat down again, He said to them, “Do you know what I have done to you? 13 You call Me Teacher and Lord, and you say well, for so I am. 14 If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet.

            —The “bathing” of the entire individual (at justification) must be followed with the occasional “washing” (forgiveness in sanctification) in order to maintain “part” (close, communal fellowship) with Christ. (1Pet 1:22-23, 1Cor 6:9-11). v8 Bathed Peter is resistant and the Lord says “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.” . This does not mean Peter is no justified it means his feet need washing to fellowship with the Lord. v14 The foot washing is forgiveness as indicated by how we are to wash each other’s feet.

            John 15:3-4 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

            —v3 Positionally they had been forgiven of all their sins. Clearly they are already in union with Christ. The issue is not whether they are in union with Him. The issue is whether they are in communion with Him.
            v4 Jesus is telling those already in union with Him to remain in fellowship with Him. Union is positional but communion is experiential. The Bible is teaching that those who already have union with Christ must meet the condition of abiding in order to bear fruit.

          • rascott247 February 9, 2017 at 6:19 pm #

            Ed
            I was not told what to believe so I have no need to rebel against what the text says. The Apostles are the foundation of the Church so Christ’s instructions to them involve the Church not Israel, the New Covenant not the Old.

            It does not contradict 1 John 3.Both John 13-15 and 1John 3 are about abiding not coming to faith. We do not know Jesus when we come to faith we know Who He is and what He has done for us but we do not know Him.

            John 13:10-17 (NKJV Strong’s Bible) 10 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.” 12 So when He had washed their feet, taken His garments, and sat down again, He said to them, “Do you know what I have done to you? 13 You call Me Teacher and Lord, and you say well, for so I am. 14 If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you. 16 Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him. 17 If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them.

            —v11 Judas was not clean. All other disciple including Philip were clean, justified-believed in Jesus, He was their Savior.
            —v13-17 Their Savior is their teacher.

            John 14:8-9 (NKJV Strong’s Bible) Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

            —v9 Jesus ask clean, justified Philip if He knows Him. We must believe to know Him and to know Him we must learn from Him.

            I am concerned about what you believe. I am more concerned with how you have been dogmatically spreading your beliefs and ignoring contradictions in your own statements. You have been your own authority you are not my authority.

          • rascott247 February 9, 2017 at 6:43 pm #

            Another of your wild contradictory claims: [Peter was not justified when Jesus washed his feet. That is why he could not admit he was with jesus to those who said he was, while Jesus was being beaten. The New Testament was not in force yet so no one was born again yet.]

            John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

            —Guess who will be in the kingdom. Matthew 8:11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
            OT saints were justified,born again. They were not baptized by Spirit into the Body of Christ. That happened at Pentecost. That’s the Church.

            Romans 4:2-3 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
            Being accounted as righteous means justified, no longer under judgment.

          • rascott247 February 9, 2017 at 7:17 pm #

            Ed
            You are telling me what to believe and I am checking it against scripture, what makes you think I don’t do the same elsewhere. You believe “they” control me but you want that control. Aint happening my friend

  12. Manny1962 February 9, 2017 at 12:10 am #

    I don’t understand, death does not cause sin……..Sin caused death. Death did not exist untill rebellious sin produced death. All men are under the penalty of death, the only way to avoid the consequence is to believe in our Lord Jesus Christ. Physical death is a mechanism that brings us from this temporal realm to our Lord’s abode, spiritual death is a permanent condition which unregenerate men suffer at the point of meeting Jesus. The sin nature is clearly seen at work throughout history, from where did Paul say all conflicts originate? The heart, it is wicked beyond repair.

    • Edwitness February 9, 2017 at 1:15 am #

      Men die for the same reason Adam died. He was denied any more access to the tree of life. So are we. It is never called a penalty. Gen.3:22-24
      “And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
      Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
      So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”

      Blessings:-}

  13. Maggie February 9, 2017 at 1:12 pm #

    Edwitness gets his doctrine from Ray Shelton. I stayed up way too late last night reading Ray Shelton’s autobio online because I was curious about how he had come to develop his unusual teaching on salvation. I noted Shelton had presented his ideas to some of his teachers at Fuller and at Wheaton College in the 1950s, and they were rejected. Nevertheless, he developed his own doctrine and taught it to others.
    http://web.archive.org/web/20130908115217/http://fromdeathtolife.org/sh1.html

    • berlorac February 9, 2017 at 3:20 pm #

      Edwitness, I have been delivered from death and the body of death (Romans 8:24-25). I have also reckoned myself as dead to sin (Romans 6:11). But until the redemption of this body, the fact remains that I still commit sins because of the flesh. But it is not my war. The Spirit wars against the flesh and the flesh against the Spirit (Galatians 5:17). We do not always yield to the Spirit; thus, we still give in to the flesh. Maybe you’re saying you perfectly walk in the Spirit and never fail in that regard. Maybe you’re saying you perfectly manifest the fruit of the Spirit and never fail in that regard. I know I can’t say that. And I won’t be able to say that until the redemption of this body is complete.

      • Edwitness February 9, 2017 at 3:26 pm #

        If what you say is true then what do you do about 1John3:6,8,9? That is, without changing what it actually says?
        “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
        Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
        He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
        Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

        God’s blessings upon you;-)

        • berlorac February 9, 2017 at 3:53 pm #

          We’ve been through that before. I gave you the correct Greek translation which says that the believer does not habitually sin. Why? Because the Spirit remains in the believer. This is in accord with Galatians 5:17. When the believer walks in the Spirit, he doesn’t sin. And because the Spirit wars against the flesh, the believer is to expect victory. We are new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) and are taken from glory to glory (2 Corinthians 3:18) with God working in us to will and to do (Philippians 2:13).

          • Edwitness February 9, 2017 at 4:22 pm #

            B,
            I knew you could not do it. Your allegiance to the sin nature doctrine won’t allow you to believe these clear statements in scripture. A clue for the correct answer is found in vs.6.
            I was just checking to see if you have been paying attention.
            That’s just one example that proved to me the sin nature doctrine is a lie. Twisting the scriptures to your own destruction.

            May you hear God’s voice:-)

    • rascott247 February 9, 2017 at 4:31 pm #

      Thanks for the link Maggie. I will read that bio this weekend.

  14. Manny1962 February 9, 2017 at 1:18 pm #

    Thanks for the link Maggie, I will follow up and study this.

  15. lyn February 9, 2017 at 7:58 pm #

    Has anyone heard from the owners of this blog concerning allowing ‘edwitness’ to continue to spew out false teachings in the comment section? It seems odd they would post on false teaching, yet allow it in the comment section.

    • Edwitness February 9, 2017 at 8:17 pm #

      Lyn,
      They are allowing a person who believes in the false doctrine of irresistible grace to comment here. Mine is supported in the scriptures. Yours is not. You are spouting false doctrine. Not me.

      • lyn February 9, 2017 at 8:19 pm #

        Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. –
        Romans 16:17

        Just like Satan, ‘edwitness’ twists God’s holy word…..

        • Edwitness February 9, 2017 at 8:50 pm #

          The division Paul was talking about was one the Judaizers, who were not so much unlike you, were bringing to the Christians he was writing to. The scriptures support what I have said. They do not support what you say.

          • lyn February 9, 2017 at 11:21 pm #

            Trotting your opinion out repeatedly doesn’t mean anything. Your errors have been rebuked here repeatedly, yet, you continue to push your brand of religion. You desire to inoculate others with your theology and when you are proven wrong, you puff out your chest and exalt yourself over everyone who disagrees with you. It is apparent you have multiple ‘issues’ that stem from what? S-I-N. ‘The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked, who can know it?’ Jeremiah 17:9

      • rascott247 February 9, 2017 at 8:29 pm #

        I don’t believe TULIP but at least Lynn admits she is a sinner (IS currently) you deny that you are a sinner.

        1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

        In your eiseges you changed HAVE NO SIN to HAVE NEVER SINNED. Because your definition of sin is wrong!!

        (If someone says they have no sin they are not saved. Because we must recognize that Jesus is Lord to be saved. This makes us walk in the light. If John were talking about the Christian having sin, he would not say two chapters later that he who sins is of the devil, he who is born of God can not sin, and whosoever sins has not seen Him neither known Him. Therefore this passage applies to the person who does not know Jesus.)

        • Edwitness February 9, 2017 at 9:36 pm #

          Rascott,
          How can you be righteous and a sinner at the same time? The only reason you believe this is possible is because you believe you are bound to sin by your sin nature. And the sin nature doctrine is not Biblical as I have shown.
          Ezekiel 18:19,20 and Deut.24:16
          We can not receive a sin nature because of the transgression of Adam. Any guilt he might have is not our guilt.

          Peace:p

          • rascott247 February 9, 2017 at 9:54 pm #

            I am not righteous. The seed in me is righteous there for I am counted as righteous by God by grace through faith not works.

            Romans 4:2-3 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

            Abraham did not have Christ in him but he was counted as righteous for faith. Again Christ is righteous He is in me I am counted as righteous by of and being sanctified. When I sin I need to confess my sin and God washes my feet and I can fellowship with Him.

          • rascott247 February 9, 2017 at 9:56 pm #

            BTW
            How was Jesus God and man at the same time? He is!

        • rascott247 February 9, 2017 at 9:47 pm #

          Ed
          The first thing to ask is what does it say (verb tenses, definitions, etc).

          1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. HAVE NO SIN and the truth is not in us when we say this. We are deceiving ourselves that we are truly fellowshipping (1:3) one with another. It does not mean we are not justified but that we are not in fellowship.

          1 John 3:4-9 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

          V4- sin is lawlessness (opposed to the law of Christ (Gal 6:2, 1Cor 9:21)
          V5-Christ was manifested to take away sins. When we abide in Him (2:28) we manifest the life of Christ.
          V6-Abide and we will not sin. We sin we are not abiding as we sin because Christ life is impeccable.
          V7-Christ practiced righteousness; we manifest Christ life when we practice righteousness.
          V8- either we are empowered by the Holy Spirit or we are empowered by the cosmos the devil being prince. Abiding in God’s Son we manifest the life and destroy the works of the devil
          V9-The life that we have which is born of God does not sin (it cannot).

          Ed confess your sin to the Father and restore fellowship.

    • Amy Spreeman February 15, 2017 at 7:10 am #

      Yes I have addressed the issue. Notice that Edw has not posted since Feb. 9.

      • Manny1962 February 15, 2017 at 10:16 am #

        Out of all the false theology proponents that have wandered through here, I must say Ed was at least the most polite, I will pray The Lord opens his eyes, as he is bent on sticking to Pelagius. Rascott, Q, Berlorac, Maggie and Lyn did a masterful job in pointing out his error, point by point, logically and perfectly out of Scripture. I am saddened by Ed’s hard heart, but he was politely and firmly shown the truth. We must proclaim the truth and call out error always. I want to thank my brothers and sisters for being true to His word. God bless you all, and may He protect us from the coming darkness, may we be found worthy through Jesus Christ to carry His truth forward as time runs out. Maranatha.

        • Amy Spreeman February 15, 2017 at 11:30 am #

          Thank you, Manny. May God be glorified and future readers pointed to Christ in your rebuttal comments to him and to all who wander through.

        • berlorac February 15, 2017 at 12:56 pm #

          Manny, I gave Ed the benefit of the doubt last Fall, I tried to engage with him as a brother, but then it quickly became apparent that he was only using his “smooth words” to gain entrance. I think that was a good lesson to learn, to look first at WHAT people are teaching, not in what polite manner in which they’re teaching it.

          2 Corinthians 11:14-15 comes to mind. Also, you know that the antichrist spirit is in the world and the Antichrist himself will come in peaceably and with words of truth mixed with error to deceive many. We cannot rely on “personality” as a guide. Some of the nicest “pastors” (think Osteen) are teaching junk but they hook people with their charisma. These are the dangerous ones.

          Sad times, these are, and dangerous, too — full of deception. I pray that we would all have discernment in these last days that we would not be led astray.

          • Manny1962 February 15, 2017 at 1:28 pm #

            Amen B, amen! These days are dark in deed, it’s easy to want to see the best in people, but you’re absolutely correct when you say we cannot rely on people’s personalities as a guide. You and the rest of the saints involved did an awesome job of standing up for the word. Bless you. I hoped the outcome would’ve been better and he would’ve been won over as a brother in Christ. Unfortunately, the glaring serious error is enough to break fellowship.

            Amy, dear sister, please keep fighting the good fight. We need more sites like this. The good Lord knows time is quickly running out.

  16. lyn February 9, 2017 at 8:23 pm #

    false teachers and their followers fill the internet, they come to blogs like this one to push forth their twisted agenda. As long as Marsha and Amy give these goats a platform, they will continue to post comment after comment after comment. I pray no one that reads these comments will be led astray.
    IF we ignore them and do not respond or challenge, perhaps they will go away. There comes a point where you should no longer cast pearls before swine.

  17. Q February 9, 2017 at 10:10 pm #

    Edwitness you said ‘

    “And for me “blessings:-}” means I hope God will bless you”

    Why would you hope for this, doesn’t the bible say God has blessed me with ever spiritual blessing in heavenly places in Christ?

    • Edwitness February 9, 2017 at 10:40 pm #

      Q,
      It most certainly does. I will refrain from blessing you in the future since it offends you.

      Peace:-)

      • Q February 9, 2017 at 10:49 pm #

        I just understood it as you believing you are superior, I gave you the scripture about the greater blessing the lessor and you continued.

  18. Q February 9, 2017 at 10:41 pm #

    Edwitness,

    Ray Shelton like you makes presumptions from a small portion of scripture and then interpret according to that presumption but even he disagrees with you –

    “that all men sin because of the spiritual death received from the first man, Adam. Thus man needs to be saved because he is spiritually dead”

    ” sin has its immediate, contemporary and personal origin in the spiritual death which along with physical death spread upon the whole race because of Adam’s act of sin.”

    “Adam and Eve disobeyed God’s command and died. But in what sense did they die? Obviously they did not immediately die physically. But since God promised that they would die in the day that they ate of the tree and since God cannot lie (Num. 23:19; I Sam. 15:29; Psa. 89:35; Heb. 6:18), they must have died that day in some other sense than physical death. The death that they experienced that day has been called spiritual death.”

    “That Adam and Eve died spiritually is clearly seen in that they hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God (Gen. 3:8) and later were driven out of the garden”

    “Men today, Adam’s descendants, are different from Adam himself. As Adam was originally created, he was physically and spiritually alive”

    And you said this –

    “Hey Q,
    There are two covenants in the Bible between God and man. Two.
    Thanks:-)”

    Again Ray Shelton does not agree with you –

    Now let us turn our attention to the covenants made between God and man that are recorded in the Old and New Testament. There are five of these major covenants in the Bible:

    NOAHIC COVENANT
    ABRAHAMIC COVENANT
    MOSAIC COVENANT
    DAVIDIC COVENANT
    NEW COVENANT

    I could go on.

    So far you are still the only one who comes to your interpretations, well except Pelagius.

    Blessings

  19. berlorac February 9, 2017 at 10:47 pm #

    Edwitness says,

    [[Justification comes through faith. Abraham was justified by faith. The law is not of faith. Those under the law [Peter, in Ed’s example] were not justified until Jesus’ death gave power to the New Testament.]]

    Hear what Paul says: Abraham was justified by faith, in uncircumcision, but then Paul gives David as an example of justification among the circumcision (those under the Law). Then Paul says that Abraham is the father of all those who are justified by faith, whether in uncircumcision (as Abraham was when he was justified) or in circumcision, as David was (Romans 4:12).

  20. Q February 9, 2017 at 11:11 pm #

    Edwitness, If a Christian can’t or doesn’t sin why are we told to set aside every sin that entangles us and why does God discipline us as a son?

  21. Jerod February 10, 2017 at 12:08 am #

    Y’all need to stop giving Ed a platform. No one wants to comment when they have to scroll past all this.

    • Amy Spreeman February 10, 2017 at 10:30 am #

      Yes. That has now happened.

      • berlorac February 10, 2017 at 10:42 am #

        Amy, it’s not so much about keeping it short, it’s about keeping the wolf out of the sheepfold. And if the wolf is allowed to run rampant among the sheep, then the sheep need to defend themselves, no matter how long it takes. We defend until the wolf is gone.

        Edwitness is a Pelagian. I’m not sure you would allow “rock star pastor” Pelagians to come on here and have a free platform to teach his heresies.

        Here are the major tenets of the Pelagian:

        1. Denies imputation of Adam’s sin to all mankind: Ed agrees with Pelagius

        2. Denies the depravity of man: Ed agrees with Pelagius

        3. Denies the substitutionary atonement: Ed agrees with Pelagius

        4. Man has free will: Ed agrees with Pelagius

        5. Man has ability to obey God without divine aid: Ed is unclear on this. He does believe that many Jews were righteous by keeping the Law, although it may be that he believes this was only possible by Divine aid.

        6. Man born innocent and pure: Ed believes that man, by nature, can obey God, but he also believes man eventually sins because he resides in death. He believes that death came to all mankind and this death puts men in an environment in which he can sin.

        Amy, Ed is teaching that Satan killed our Lord on the Cross. Ed is teaching that Christ did not die to pay the penalty for sins because, in his theology, there is no penalty for sins.

        • Amy Spreeman February 11, 2017 at 3:20 pm #

          Got it. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I will try to do a better job moderating.

          • Edwitness February 11, 2017 at 5:47 pm #

            In this case berlorac it was a sheep among a bunch of wolves. But, as you found out, this sheep is very prepared to face you wolves.

          • Edwitness February 11, 2017 at 6:39 pm #

            The way you are talking berlorac, you’d think I didn’t believe Jesus’ sacrifice was enough to set me free from death and sin or something. Oh. Wait a minute. That’s what you and your “sheep” friends believe, right?

          • berlorac February 11, 2017 at 8:49 pm #

            Thanks, Amy. I know you’re busy. At least we all got a good refresher in defending the fundamentals of the faith. 🙂

        • Maggie February 12, 2017 at 6:52 pm #

          Berlorac, thank you for doing the work, point by point.

          • berlorac February 13, 2017 at 12:07 pm #

            Hey Maggie, let me take this one last opportunity to make it clear as to what the “discussion” was all about — the crux of the matter —

            We were not arguing about “secondary issues” within Christianity. What I was contending for was the Gospel itself.

            The Gospel “is the power of God unto salvation” (Romans 1:16). Therefore, if we do not believe the Gospel, we cannot be saved. Paul tells the Corinthians that they had their standing before God through the Gospel he preached to the them and they received (1 Corinthians 15:1). And what is this Gospel that saves?

            “…Christ died for our sins…was buried…was raised on the third day” in the flesh (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).

            Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures. Some here would say He died for our death, but this is not the Gospel that saves. We also learn that He died so that we have been taken from death to life, yes, but the Gospel that saves is that He “died for our sins.” This means one must agree with God that he is a sinner, that he has committed sins against God, but that God, in His love and mercy toward us, put those sins on the Lord Yeshua Messiah instead of us — the forgiveness of sins.

            I’m glad you’ve been following along, Maggie. I know it can get a bit tedious and even discouraging at times.

  22. Q February 10, 2017 at 2:56 am #

    Y’all don’t give ed a platform, Amy, Marsha and Chris do.

    • Amy Spreeman February 10, 2017 at 10:34 am #

      Who is Chris?

      • Q February 10, 2017 at 6:33 pm #

        Im sorrry Amy, my mistake. For some reason I had in my mind that Chris Rosebrough contributed here.

        • Maggie February 10, 2017 at 8:04 pm #

          Q–Maybe you are thinking of Amy’s blog Berean Examiner on piratechristian.com.

          • Q February 11, 2017 at 12:27 am #

            Hi Maggie, Yes that may be it.

        • Amy Spreeman February 11, 2017 at 3:15 pm #

          Nope, just Marsha and me. I do have a blog (Berean Examiner) on Chris’ Pirate Christian site. He kindly invited me to archive all my old stuff from Stand Up For The Truth there, as well as host my own blog for new articles. Between that one and this one, it keeps me pretty busy!

      • Q February 11, 2017 at 1:07 am #

        Amy I sent you guys an email and you didn’t reply, how come?

        • Amy Spreeman February 11, 2017 at 3:12 pm #

          I just sent you a reply. Thanks for the heads up! I’ve been up to my eyeballs in work. Sorry!

          • Q February 12, 2017 at 12:54 pm #

            Got got your reply, Thanks!

  23. Jerod February 10, 2017 at 11:32 am #

    Ed,

    I say this in all love and having been where you have been. You are sincere, and that is appreciated.

    Ed’s behaviour is attention getting. Giving it attention reinforces the behaviour. That’s why the conversations are getting longer.

    1Timothy 1 I think addresses this, this is my long response and then I’m done.

    As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, 4nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith. 5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, 7wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.

    8But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,

    No one here is the online Timothy. Conversations like this turn away some real discussion in lieu of this fruitless discussion.

    God bless you guys

    • Q February 10, 2017 at 7:03 pm #

      Jerod,

      That’s good advice and I also gave the same scripture reference…the problem for me is I hate the idea of someone coming out of erroneous teaching and then falling into another one.

      Hopefully Ed will take your advice about his own WordPress account for this topic otherwise moderation of some sort seems to be the answer. At the same time I appreciate the blog owners allowing differing views because over moderation becomes an echo chamber and doesn’t provide the ability to learn from one another. It’s probably not easy to find that balance.

      • Jerod February 12, 2017 at 8:46 pm #

        When it goes on for this long I think it probably is time to chalk it up to a 1 Timothy situation.

  24. Phillip February 10, 2017 at 2:54 pm #

    Oh this is a great discussion Jerod. Many congregations have fallen prey to a seeker friendly movement through the use of feel good music. Music will not save a sole from hell only God can do that. If praise music is bringing in the masses primary to pay the bills for a church this is wrong, very wrong! The responsibility of the church is to point sinners to Christ and His Word. If music is not praising the Lord then it is just entertainment which is idolatry! Music has it’s place but it should never be above the Word of GOD. The biblioteca de vina.

  25. Jerod February 10, 2017 at 5:12 pm #

    Phillip I bet it is. But the Pelagian pushers have been trolling with this debate centered on Romans 5:12 for months now. Makes responding to a useful dialogue near impossible. Ed hopefully will open his own WordPress account and continue this discussion there.

    • lyn February 10, 2017 at 5:15 pm #

      Well said Jerod – amen.

  26. Jerod February 10, 2017 at 5:13 pm #

    I can’t stand that I posted again… AAAARGGHH!

    • Maggie February 10, 2017 at 7:59 pm #

      Jerod–BTW, I loved your Ghost Busters quote: “Don’t cross the streams!”

      • Jerod February 11, 2017 at 6:52 pm #

        It was one of those times it popped up and I knew I had a funny.

        When someone’s doctrine resembles an 80’s comedy it might be time to reevaluate…

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