In 2013, Christine Pack of Sola Sisters* wrote a piece titled “Has John Piper Lost His Mind?” In it she laid out some of her concerns with John Piper who she had always believed to be a “solid teacher of the Reformed tradition.” Pack was having doubts. And she wasn’t alone. Other discernment bloggers were having concerns, too, so they alerted the brethren. Ken Silva of Apprising Ministries (here), Lighthouse Trails (here) and Chris Rosebrough of Fighting for the Faith (here) dealt with Piper’s shift into neo-reformed New Calvinism. According to Ken Silva, Piper “is seen as a mentor, even a ‘pioneer’ of this New Calvinism.”
So now Jeff Maples has joined the chorus of bloggers who take issue with some of the things Dr. Piper has been doing. For example, he often attends events with, and goes to bat for, false or compromised teachers who clearly share a false gospel. Maples writes:
John Piper and false teacher Rick Warren “hanging out.” Photo credit: Apprising Ministries
John Piper was once regarded as a great contender for the faith. He was the go-to guy for apologetics in Reformed theology and the one that was looked to when those with twisted soteriology espoused their false doctrine. He has written excellent books on living a holy life for God and had a way of explaining Scripture that made him a desirable teacher for those truly looking to enhance their theological understanding of and relationship with God.
Yet, behind every fallen creature is a tendency to slide away from God. Behind every fallen creature is the tendency to please man. Behind every fallen creature is the tendency to become so engrossed in your own popularity that you fail to see the grave error that is taking over your life and ministry.
In recent years, John Piper has shown where his true allegiance is. He has staunchly defended false teachers such as Rick Warren and Mark Driscoll. The movement that has gripped his ministry, and taken him by the seat of his pants is known as New Calvinism. New Calvinism is a form of seeker-friendly semi-reformed theology. New Calvinists believe that as long as they have their Calvinistic theology right, there is much room for disagreement and liberty in most other areas.
While most New Calvinists fall into the “Young, Restless, and Reformed” category, Piper is certainly no young buck. Yet, the crowd he now runs around with certainly are.
He has been a repeat speaker at the popular student conference, Passion. The conference is a prime example of the compromised theology of the New Calvinist movement. The conference hosts false teachers such as Word of Faith pastrix out of Hillsong, Australia, Christine Caine, and several other false or compromised teachers, including Beth Moore, Louie Giglio, Levi Lusko and Francis Chan.
Why would he want to associate with these people? Why does he want to lend them credibility? The Scriptures clearly teach that believers are not to associate with false teachers for any other reason except to expose them (Eph 5:11). I think we can safely chalk this up to his disobedience of 1 Corinthians 15:33 (ESV),
Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.”
* Update from Berean Research: While we believe the linked article was factual and attributed correctly, we can no longer recommend this author as a biblically sound source for any Christian information.
Excellent. I look forward to your articles exposing John Maccarthur and Tim Keller as well.
Have you not heard Piper’s defense to the accusation that you have made against him here? He was asked to speak to thousands of college students at the Passion conference. Should he turn down that opportunity and deny teaching the truth to all those students??? Shouldn’t there be a true voice in the mix? He saw it as an opportunity to bring truth to their minds. He may have shared the stage with others that do not teach truth but at least they had a choice as to whom they could listen. In addition, if we were to critique every sentence a person writes or says there is always a way to turn it to say something for which is was not intended. I know that Piper teaches salvation by faith alone but if a person has true faith they will walk in obedience to Christ. It is the evidence of saving faith. He does not teach faith plus works. Neither does John MacArthur or Tim Keller.
I agree. I don’t agree with everything Piper stands upon. But that is only a very small portion as I see him carefully navigating Scripture to declare what it says as authenticated by the context of itself. Perhaps the writers of this article need to look in the mirror and ask themselves if they are abiding by 2Tim 2:24-26 about being quarrelsome and unkind? There is a fine line between gossip and correction for desire for edification.
More and more those who make a pretense at truth are exposed. What is truly in a man’s heart always eventually comes out of his mouth.
But, when Jeff wrote that “Yet, behind every fallen creature is a tendency to slide away from God. Behind every fallen creature is the tendency to please man. Behind every fallen creature is the tendency to become so engrossed in your own popularity that you fail to see the grave error that is taking over your life and ministry”, he make a clear assumption that it is the “tendency” of people to choose wrong over right. Because as he says “every fallen creature” has this “tendency”.
Do you see the assumption he is making here?
Because there are those who choose the wrong does not prove or imply “tendency”. That has to be read into the scriptures. What it does prove however is that mankind has the power of choice. Free will. There are indeed factors involved with the reason that the majority ends up choosing the way they do, but this does not promote the notion of “tendency”.
Blessings:-}
Romans3:10-12 “as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
It’s more than a mere tendency.
Mr. Nelson, well said!!
In response to “Eyewittness”, whoever you are:
Free will? Not so!! Free agency for sure, but definitely not free will. Unsaved unregenerate men only have freedom to act within their (fallen) nature, and not to act outside of it.
Fallen unregenerate men only have the “freedom” to make wrong choices.
Saved (regenerate) men have the power through God’s Spirit to make right choices, but they frequently do not. It is sin, and it can be confessed and forgiven.
I’m not saying that Mr. Piper is unregenerate. He may be,, Or he may actually be among God’s elect, but he is playing with fire and has begun in more than one respect to act like a classical “false teacher”, who Paul and Peter warned us about.
Time will tell.
I have tuned Mr. Piper out, completely, at this point. Mr. Warren does not deserve a passing moment of my attention.
I have red Pipers article few days ago in which he said he and his childrens are celebrating reincarnation of God Sun DIE SOLE he is openli confessing it He is not worshipping the God creator true God of Abraham,Isaak and Yaakov
Oh boy, if God says do not associate that ends the discussion ! May the many fall if God is not in it !
I have supported Robert Jefferys for many years. Lately I have noticed that he had a quote of support by Rick Warren on the cover of one of his books. I wrote and questioned this and received no response. Andy Stanley is sounding way off base also.
I thank the Lord that I found Berean Research. I need sound teaching for these times.
It’s getting harder and harder to trust. Thank you Berean Research.
Please tell me what do I need to look for regarding John Maccarthur ?
MacArthur is a Calvinist and believes that life is a preprogrammed game where the gift of freewill has no practical effect. So…when Jesus says in John 3:25-16,36 that whosever believes will be saved and whosoever doesn’t believe will perish…he really means whoever he chose before the world began will he saved. So, if you aren’t one if the elite chosen ones, you burn forever. Sorry. Thus, the gospel, which Paul calls the power of God unto salvation, actually has NO power at all and Christ’s death was simply an unnecessary exercise in self torture because…it’s all a preprogrammed game.
http://followingjesuschrist3.com/2015/05/19/limited-atonement-does-everyone-have-a-chance-to-be-saved/
While he has attempted to retract his comment that people can take the mark of the beast and still be saved despite the clearest possible words to the contrary from the mouth of non other than Jesus Christ himself, I think he still believes it. Why? Because just as the Pharisees did in Mark 7, he puts his man made tradition and rules (predestination/limited atonement) above the clear and direct words of Jesus Christ, the maker of all things and whom is light and life, on the subject of the mark. How could he have ever thought that taking the mark is ok in light of what Jesus said in Revelation 14:9-11?? It makes no sense. Like many apostates who walk back what they really think – since he said it – he was shamed into taking it back. What he said, if accepted by the flick could send them all to hell. For him to be a Calvinist and deny the words of Jesus in Revelation 14 show that something is very wrong in Denmark…
In the beginning of your post, you’re not critiquing MacArthur, you’re critiquing Calvinism, which is is the theological position (based on the explicit teaching of Scripture) held by a huge segment of the believing world! Furthermore, you’re critiquing it poorly, by completely misrepresenting what they (and I) claim to be taught in Scripture regarding the gospel and salvation.
Before you start trying to make a case that Calvinism hinders “the gift of freewill”, you really need to find such teaching in Scripture (It isn’t there!) – and, at the same time, give good theological arguments against the numerous biblical passages (especially in the epistles of Paul) which teach about “election”, the people of God being regarded as God’s “elect”, and God’s sovereign role in the salvation of every believer. After all, even the Old Testament makes it plain that “Salvation belongs to the LORD” (Psalm 3:8). There’s really no confusion in Scripture about this, and John 3:16 teaches nothing to the contrary.
Regarding your arguments about Dr. MacArthur’s teaching about “the mark of the beast”, I’d need to read what he wrote on the subject rather than simply going by what you have understood him to say. I don’t agree with MacArthur on every single point myself, but he’s one of the most faithful biblical expositors and preachers in our day, and is very cautious not to teach things which are in direct contradiction to Scripture.
Personally, I can’t imagine him disregarding any biblical teaching as you have implied that he did. Nonetheless, the brief reference to “the mark of the beast” in Scripture is not a central gospel issue, but rather it’s an eschatological (“end times”) issue which is barely taught in Scripture and which is often a subject of much confusion and speculation among even faithful pastors who are striving to understand what the Bible teaches about this.
It’s certainly fine if we disagree on theological matters – and even if we sometimes disagree with what we hear being taught by popular preachers – but let’s be just a bit less eager to throw stones at beloved teachers of God’s Word who aren’t in obvious error and instead let their teaching drive us deeper in our own study of God’s Word.
The mark of the beast quote is on video. What he says is clear and unambiguous …and it directly contradicts the precise words of Jesus Christ himself in Revelation 14:9-11. It isn’t a pre/mid/post trib issue. It’s a “What I believe about Calvinism trumps the clear words of Jesus because my man made philosophy makes more sense to me than what Jesus says ” issue(see Mark 7). You personally might not believe your Calvinist guy could say such a thing – but he did…and it shows a fundamental lack of respect for and understanding of the true hierarchy of truth, meaning that the words of Jesus Christ trump his (and your) belief in the false and gospel nullifying system of Calvinism.
He does seem like a kind man, as does Joel Osteen, but as Paul said, may God be true and every man a liar. The link I posted earlier illustrates some of the clear false teachings by calvinists, and Romans 8:29 and 1 Peter 1:2 in the kjv define predestination and election properly, meaning in a manner that affirms free will rather than denying it.
Please provide a link to the video. I refuse to accept hearsay as evidence of such a charge
I should make you do your own research, but here is one of many clips that discuss it. Search youtube john macarthur take the mark. It is a well known comment. There is tons of stuff on it and I have seen the original video with my own eyes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU3tjRq6tX4
That’s a pretty arrogant way of saying things. You made the accusation, it is not my responsibility to do the research to support it. It’s your responsibility to to defend it.
As for the video, it ignores the complete response given by John MacArthur to make a “gotcha” point. Nor does the point made have anything to do with Calvinism.
The words of the “angel” (not directly the words of Jesus, although angels are his messengers) were “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
The angel said “worships the beast and it’s image AND receives a mark”, implying both. This is what MacArthur was saying if you listened to his entire statement. In any case, whether he’s right or wrong, don’t forget the actual words of Jesus (not that the words of an angel speaking on behalf of the Lord are any less authoritative) in Matthew 12:31… “Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.”
Are you saying that in the great tribulation when no one may buy or sell without the mark, that taking the mark in order to feed one’s family without worshipping the beast and his image is “the blasphemy against the Spirit” which Jesus said was the only unforgivable sin?
Perri Nelson,
I think also the words of Jesus apply here when He said “For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.” Mt.16:25
And that “Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.” Mt.10:32,33
And there is also more confirmation that those who take the mark are counted as those who worship the beast. Rev.20:4- “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”
I believe the context of Rev.13 makes it clear that anyone who takes the mark is denying Christ and instead is worshiping the beast.
Vs.4 says “And they WORSHIPED the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they WORSHIPED the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?”
And verses 6-8 tell us “And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
And all that dwell upon the earth shall WORSHIP him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”
Then we see in vs11and12 that “And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to WORSHIP the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.”
After all of this we see this in verses 16,17 “And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.”
This progression insures that both unbeliever and believer alike will know exactly what they are doing when they take the mark. As verses 4,11,and 12 tell us those who take the mark know very well that in taking the mark they are indeed worshiping the beast.
On top of that, as I showed before, Jesus told them in Mt.16:25 that they will lose their life they could have in Christ when they choose to save their physical life.
John is indeed wrong about this. This does not mean he is not saved. Just that his theology is flawed in this area.
Blessings:-} brother
PerrI – you are right. I wrongly assumed that any one who would suggest that I just made up John’s statement would take a sec to at least google it first…but that does not justify a curt response. I should have said, “please consider researching the quote via youtube or google.” Please forgive me. There is no need for rudeness, and in that I failed. My speech must always be seasoned with grace.
I think one would have a tough time making it in to heaven if they took the mark of satan in their bodies so that they can be involved in commerce. I can’t imagine that one could take it without also having to worship him, but either way it is a risk no one should take. So his comments were unwise, and dangerously contradicted red letter scripture. We all have to choose Jesus Christ and eternity over the short term comforts of this world. It will be horrible in the trib, but we must choose who we are going to serve. It has always been easy in America, and thus, we could easily get away with being lukewarm, like the Laodicean church. Those days, my man, are coming to a rapid and harsh end.
Edwitness and Sola Scriptura…
Thank you both for your responses. As for whether taking the mark will damn someone or not, the scenario I laid out was intended as a possible explanation of John’s remarks. it’s also pretty weak as an explanation. you don’t even have to speculate as to whether other passages refute it or not, because the last verse in the cited passage does so adequately.
I have no idea where John stands on this now. I wasn’t even aware of his comments, or the source of the claims regarding them until this conversation.
I did want to see proof of the claim, and thanks for that. So often people level charges at others based on little more than heresay and slander. At other times they pounce upon statements with no context.
I’m reasonably assured that John MacArthur is a genuine believer and saved. However that’s really between him and the Lord, I cannot know for certain about any other man. And regarding minor issues, and even major issues, none of us except the Lord is perfect. After all, didn’t the apostle Paul have to rebuke the apostle Peter to his face regarding his treatment of the gentiles?
Thanks again for the conversation.
Perri,
Blessings and thanks to you as well brother:-)
Actually ALL OF SCRIPTURE “define predestination and election properly”! The fact that you seem to believe that only two verses, cut off from their surrounding biblical context – and only in your preferred KJV translation – do this is very troubling! If you struggle to apply what the Bible says in numerous other places regarding God’s sovereign election of lost sinners who are incapable of saving themselves, then the problem certainly isn’t with God’s Word, but with your limited understanding of it.
Calvinists certainly don’t worship Calvin – and, in fact, frequently disagree with things that Calvin said or did. However, those (like me) who regard themselves as Reformed or Calvinistic in their views recognize the faithfulness to Scripture which Calvin and the other Reformers demonstrated in their preaching, teaching, and writing and seek to be just as faithful to Scripture in our own study and proclamation of God’s Word.
One of the cherished “battle cries” of the Reformation “Sola Scriptura!” means that Scripture alone will be our authoritative guide for knowing God and making him known to others – and that we won’t permit personal or popular opinions to sway our understanding of what the Bible plainly teaches to be true. So, when the Bible teaches us that God elects unto salvation those whom HE chooses, we believe it to be true, and see no need to read back into Scripture the popular but unbiblical idea of us choosing to be saved apart from God’s grace in election, as if our knowledge and ability regarding our salvation exceeded God’s knowledge and ability in choosing to save us.
There’s nothing secretive or man-made in Reformed theology – it’s simply a faithful submission of our own thinking to what is taught to us by God in his holy, unchanging Word. Your quick dismissal of Reformed theology and – by default – all who have professed to be Reformed in their theology (including John Calvin, Martin Luther, Jonathan Edwards, Matthew Henry, Charles Spurgeon, George Whitfield, and so many others who’ve served such profound roles in spreading the gospel of Christ throughout the world) speaks volumes about not only your own personal theological views, but also your willingness to disregard the larger body of Christ (both today and throughout history) outside of your own theological camp.
My suggestion would be that you devote more time to studying biblical theology (especially regarding to God’s role in our salvation) and church history (particularly the Reformers and the Puritans) before speaking again with such condemnation toward Reformed Christians. Attacking faithful brothers and sisters in Christ simply because they don’t share some of your particular theological views helps no one, but it only hinders us all from “walking together in unity and love” as Jesus has commanded us to do. There are more than enough false prophets deserving of such public shaming without needlessly attacking those who, like you, have been adopted into God’s eternal family.
PJ I like your style. Keep up the fight brother.
Calvinism is one big lie! And, my experience is that Calvinists can get very angry and nasty, when challenged.
God did not “pre select” anyone to be saved! Salvation is a free gift, we choose to accept it or not!
Believers in predestination are arrogant and proud. Believing that somehow they are special.
Hi Sola.
I think that your comment that “MacArthur is a Calvinist and believes that life is a preprogrammed game where the gift of freewill has no practical effect” is not a fair summary of his (or many other Reformed folk’s) teaching. You cite John 3:25-16,36 “that whosoever believes will be saved and whosoever doesn’t believe will perish”. That’s pretty straightforward. It does also mean that whoever he chose before the world began will he saved, as you said. However, it is still an open and free offer to believe. The problem for the unregenerate person is that they cannot and will not believe unless they receive a new heart. The gift of free will as you call it is not, perhaps what you think it is. Though some reformed folk deny free will all really do have free will. The problem is that some equate free will with ability. All the unconverted have freedom . The problem for the unconverted man is that he is completely free to operate within his own sphere but he is unable to believe (there is no one who seeks after God…Romans 3). A new heart is required. The believer also has free will but he can now, for the first time, will and begin to do good (not meritoriously, of course). The unconverted man does not have the ability to do good (back to Romans 3) but he is not interested in it either. His heart is hard. He is not coerced into not seeking after God nor does he does not want to. He is freely operating according to his fallen condition.
God changes hearts so that people will freely and happily believe (acting consistently with their new nature). The unregenerate man wants none of it. When God changes a heart, that person will believe and be saved. Christ’s righteousness is given to that person and Christ has taken their sin away. This is the power of God unto salvation!
The free will that I believe you may be speaking about is maybe more about ability than will. If it is left to unregenerate man’s free will, he will never believe. It is the power of God that is needed. Rather than Christ’s death as ” simply an unnecessary exercise in self torture because…it’s all a preprogrammed game” it is actually Christ horribly suffering the wrath of God on account of all who will believe – actual suffering, actual payment, actual love for actual people – there is no hypothetical group of those who might believe.
Those who do not believe do not have the inclination or ability to do so. It is the mercy of God who changes hearts so that we will believe and have everlasting life. Hallelujah!
I agree. Biblically, before a person comes to know Christ, they are not free, but enslaved to themselves, to the whims of the world and to temptations from satan. We are only free when we are set free. Will the 1st question I ask of God when I get to heaven be “How is it that Your sovereignty and our responsibility is such a mixed set of ingredients in Your Word” and the answer will be, “Yes.” (it is going to be a first question if I don’t all of a sudden become enlightened or even have the opportunity to ask of such a great God of such) I have said this before: If the Bible was full of humanly understandable precepts throughout, then I would not trust it because the likelihood of it being man made would rise infinitely. God exists outside of time. He has everyone who is heavenbound already written in the book of life. he has always existed. And He calls everyone to call on His name for salvation by grace. And those folks should find it a privilege to call on such a God of such magnificence, omniscience, power and love!
Greg R,
That was a good word brother.
Blessings:-}
i walked away from calvinism. what we dont need are isms or people who think christs blood was only shed for a few. any idiot can quote doctrine but to continue to hold seminars on election , lets face it , is a waste of time. calvinists walk pretty much the same and i;ve noticed because they are afraid of what ‘their conrads might say if they differ they get angry when somebody disagrees. ive noticed they, have to be right and are obssesed with looking and sounding perfect. i wont mention names. there are to many of them following an idiot who killed somebody that didnt agree with them. i would like to see your face when you tell jesus that he only died for the whoevers not the whosoevers
@Sola Question to you, ” What did you do to become a Christian? Ie How did you get saved?”
Jeffress is a wimped sellout ! He looks at the sheep as beneath him as he cons them out of money , glamorizes himself with the wolves as endorsing Paula Whites latest book and hangs out with all the wolves at the white house !
This guy is a clown that looks like a mouse because he is one
Good evening Ed,
Have you read anywhere where Mr. McArthur has clarified his comment on receiving the marl of the beast?
Yes my friend ….but for him to ever think it, and then say it to a large crowd despite what Jesus said as clearly as he has ever said anything (See Revelation 14:9-11) is very problematic and makes no sense. As I note above, I think he got caught saying what he really believes…the man made rules of Calvin trump the clear and direct words of Jesus Christ.
As for the definition of election and predestination, Romans 8:29 and 1 Peter 1:2, define them as part of the @foreknowledge” of God(which allows for freewill. He simply knows us per psalm 139, and thus, anticipates how we will use it) …at least in the kjv.
…I’m a horrendous typist on my phone. It’s John 15-16,36 above. There are numerous other errors as well. ?
I am not completely sure but perhaps I sense a bit of mischaracterization of Calvinists like MacArthur and Piper. I am definitely a Calvinist in the sense that I believe that the God that I worship is so big, outstanding, wise, sovereign and transcendent that He even transcends time. He exists in the past present and future so to speak. The reason I believe this is because the Bible says so. God in his infinite wisdom wanted us to know this tidbit of the trillions of pieces of His awesome nature that He stands outside of time and that He knows who are His and who are not. When it comes to freewill, in God’s sovereignty He gives the church the opportunity to proclaim the nature of this God including the awesome nature of His transcendence to a lost and dying world and with this they have to make a decision to either choose to know God who is transcendent and who is loving and kind, or not know Him through the work of Jesus Christ dying on the cross.
If we as believers choose to shut down the whole idea of God’s sovereignty for the sake of appeal, then we are necessarily shutting down the Biblical representation of who He is. This is not to say that we go up to the lost and stupidly directly proclaim to them that they are either written in the book of life or not so choose well but it does mean that when we go to church and worship Him, worship Him in such a way that adores the fact that He is so brilliant and transcendent and outside our realm. When we do this, I believe that God is pleased and the Holy Spirit will engage believers to proclaim the gospel to more people whose hearts will be readied by the Holy Spirit for choosing wisely to know such a great God!
This is tricky. Sovereignty and responsibility a mixed bag but they are both in the Bible and this (like I have said in previous posts) to me make the bible true because it proves that it is not made by man but by the One and Only God!
There is no dichotomy between Sovereignty and responsibility, nothing that makes it ‘tricky’ to hold both at once. All that is necessary is to have a right understanding of the word ‘sovereignty’ rather than redefining it (to mean someone who micromanages every last detail of every event in human history) to fit a man made system of theology like Calvinism. That is not what sovereignty means, and nobody takes it to mean that except Calvinists who, after redefining it, think they have a monopoly on the word, or rather the idea. All Christians believe in God’s sovereignty-and when Calvinists say he they believes in his ‘total’ sovereignty, that is a meaningless addition, because none of us think he is ‘partially’ sovereign-but those who take God at his word are quite happy with the fact that he sovereignly chose to give free will to his creatures, and works all our free will choices out for his own good ends.
Well I don’t think it is necessary to have long disagreeable discussions on the issue of sovereignty and freedom…But let me talk a minute on overarching Biblical principles for a minute:
I cannot attribute my salvation to my freely choosing, but to outside forces imposing on my freedom to choose unwisely all of the time to appeal to my sin and the world. So freedom is tricky…Those not in Christ will always freely choose to appeal to sin nature, self honor and the world unless something happens to cause them to move differently that is outside of them. I would suggest that this agrees with Eph 2 where faith AND grace is freely given by God. The other force imposed upon them all of the time is God’s creation which declares to all sinners who freely choose wrongly all of the time that there is a God, there is a God, there is a God, so they are all without excuse. (Ro 1)
I know some will give fancy theological words to help one’s mind towards coming to understand the combo meal of sovereignty and responsibility and I just don’t agree that this is necessary. There are going to be some things in life that we just will not understand and this is a cause for worshipping our God who transcends human understanding at times!
If you think I am wrong on this, looking at the Scriptures in Romans11 where Paul speaks often about the sovereignty of God in relation to Israel. He warns about being wise in one’s own sight in vs 25 and concludes with this mix bag of God sovereignly acting in history and our responsibility to of bowing down to God as Creator (Ro 1) with real worship of a God who is so outstanding that He is beyond our full comprehension in Ro 11:33-36!
That is the sweet spot all Christians need to be.
The stereotypic cold hearted Calvinist could be symbolized by a unfeeling small group of worshippers singing old hymns to a pipe organ. Very few will feel drawn to God in this form of religion.
Then stereotypic hyper Arminian service could be symbolized by loud happy feeling music that gets louder and louder in its attempt to jar open a dead men’s hearts. The truth terms in relation to God are not as concerning as the appealing nature of the music and genre engaged to ease a cold dead man’s heart to life. Very few will feel drawn to the true God in this form of religion too.
The congregation that choses to avoid both of these pitfalls (and labels that go with them) all together and take on the mindset and meaning of Romans chapter 11 where they celebrate the goodness of our Great God who is so profound that causes us to bow down in worship of Him with a new song. They admit that God is ultimately sovereign in all things which makes Him Big and them small as the Bible accurately depicts. And for this, their worship is with non-blushing faces and with hearts that are truly in love with God who loved them first (1Jn 4:19) and transcends them at the same time. And those outside of the church peering in towards those in worship and in proclamation of such a wonderful gospel cannot go unaffected! God send us this revival!
Sola scriptura. How did you get saved??
Hey Manny1962,
As far as I have seen there has been no such recanting from John. In fact, as far as I know he still has the lesson up on his website that teaches you can be saved after taking the mark.
I read an article Defending John once that said something about Rev.15 saying something about those who have the victory over the beast and his number. The writer said this could mean that those who got the victory did so because they took the mark and later rejected it and got saved. Giving them the victory. Now that is the queen of assumptive dividing of the word of God if I ever heard it.
When we assume what the word means instead of letting it say what it says we can sure get mixed up.
Blessings:-} brother
Thanks Ed, I was utterly shocked when I saw the video. This has been around the net for a while now. Unless I’m losing my eyesight, the bible clearly says he who takes the mark is doomed. Isn’t having victory over the beast and his number choosing death over the mark? We all know this is life is but a breath, then reality begins….. God bless you my friend! The days are growing so dark, eschatology reveals itself almost on a daily basis.
*mark………l I hate this iPad!
Has anyone called out Mr.Piper for holding hands with and praying with a known-beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt apostate like Rick Warren, Mr. Chrislam, all worship the same god? Unbelievable!
This article is good info, however, John Piper is the founder of the ESV Bible that you use to quote from at the end of this article. I was going to post this article on my facebook page, however, due to the fact that Piper is a false teacher who associates w/false teachers, and highly promotes ESV bible all over the world, I cannot share this article. Even International Gideon’s are now using Piper’s ESV bible. This is why my husband left the Gideon Organization.
As a watchman, it truly is difficult to keep up w/satans dastardly deeds to pull us a way for Jesus Christ and Him Crucified. I do believe we are in the time of the Great Falling Away. It is so sad and disheartening. Blessings to Berean Research for even more discernment (which we all desperately need).
I see a lot of doctrine worshippers here. Clique-y people who don’t want to share the gospel. We don’t worship our leaders and none of them are 100% right. None. This is bad trend.
Sherry –
Without getting into a full defense of John Piper and / or the ESV translation (both of which I have defended in other places), let me just clarify to you that John Piper is not the founder of the ESV Bible. In fact, he had nothing to do with it’s translation (though several of my seminary professors did). All Piper has done is publicly endorsed the translation, saying that he’s more pleased with the ESV than with any other translation that’s been produced so far, and sharing that he intends to use it as his primary translation (in addition to many others, including the original Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic texts) for his own study and in his preaching, teaching, and writing. Whether you approve of John Piper or not, the ESV has nothing to do with him.
The English Standard Version translation was produced by Crossway / Good News publishers, who is arguably the most trustworthy and biblically faithful Christian publishing house today. They began by exclusively publishing gospel tracts to help Christians share the gospel throughout the world, and their publication of books and Bibles today (in addition to tracts) only increases their reach in helping to spread the biblical gospel. In addition to their ongoing book sales, they are constantly doing special projects which involve them shipping thousands and thousands of books and Bibles to other parts of the world at cost (or, in some cases, for free) for the proclamation of the gospel and the equipping of believers and pastors throughout the world.
Anyway, the ESV is their project, first completed in 2001 and revised for the final time this year, in which they have sought to produce a translation which was equally literal and reliable as the KJV, NKJV and NASB translations, while also aiming to have the readability of the best-selling NIV translation. In doing this, they selected Dr. J. I. Packer – who is by many standards the most trusted evangelical theologian living today (and author of numerous excellent books, including the classic works “Knowing God” and “Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God”) – as the general editor for the translation.
A wonderful Bible scholar himself, Packer chose a tremendous team of Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic scholars to prayerfully and collaboratively translate the sacred texts – including such respected scholars as William Mounce (whose book, “The Basics of Biblical Greek”, is used in numerous seminaries today), Wayne Grudem (who later edited the study notes for the “ESV Study Bible”, and whose “Systematic Theology” is used and appreciated across denominational lines), Vern Poythress, Darrell Bock, G. K. Beale, and many others. So, if you have questions or concerns about the ESV, it’s not John Piper who’s responsible for that, but these evangelical biblical scholars who’ve labored on the project for many years.
I don’t expect to change your thinking about the ESV with a simple post here, but I at least wanted to clarify that John Piper didn’t help to translate it. Also, if you – for whatever reason – want to read a bit more about the ESV, or to read some of the endorsements from folks like R. Albert Mohler, Joni Eareckson Tada, Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth, or others, then here’s the official website for the translation where you can do that – http://www.esv.org/.
PJ I like your style. Keep up the good fight! I came here searching for reasons that someone thought CR was a cult and have been unexpectedly encouraged by your commitment to critical thinking and clarity.
Is 1 Corinthians 14:33, “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”; and is Proverbs 30:5, “Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.”; and is Deuteronomy 4:2 – “Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.” & 12:32 – “What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.”; and is Revelation 22:18-19 – “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”is Psalm 12:6-7 – “The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.’; is Matthew 24:35 – “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”; is 2 Timothy 3:16 – “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:…”; is 1 Peter 1:23 – ‘Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”, are all of those scripture verses, and their warnings, and their promises, are they all true? Because if they are – and they indeed are – how then, when we look at and apply these verses from the Holy Scriptures, can we possibly justify all the different versions of the bible in the English language? Answer: we can’t!! God is NOT the author of confusion, and if we compare Isaiah 14:12, 2 Peter 1:19, & Revelation 22:16 from the Holy Scriptures (KJV) to any of the new versions – to exclude the NKJV, which removes “Jehovah” from the O.T., so it’s compromised and not entirely the pure word of God – we find that the one who fell from heaven and wants to be like God – either the ‘morning star’ or the ‘day star’ – is Jesus himself!! In other words, the new versions (which all remove the name “Lucifer”) tell us that Jesus and Satan are one-in-the-same!! That is blasphemy at its worst!!
Mr. Takich mentioned God not being the author of confusion yet the statements made by Mr. Takich are confusing to me. Could it be suggested that I am not a Christian and have not the ability to understand such a wise counselor? Or could it be that the items in many posts in this section including these recent are just confusing. If one declares that a number of men today are not subscribing to a gospel that I would agree is more honed into Scripture than any men I know of today as well as to the traditional view of the gospel as held by many God fearing men over the centuries, then I must question their view of the gospel, not MacArthur’s or Pipers. Just because MacArthur and Piper are getting a lot of attention does not mean that they are false prophets either! I believe that they are getting a lot of attention because many Christians were getting frustrated with their churches liberality with Scripture thereby find admonition in good teachers!
John MacArthur would NOT suggest that taking the mark of the beast be wise in any form or fashion. In fact, John MacArthur would suggest that flirting with sin as a professing believer or not is quite foolish. And the warnings in the Bible about this in places like in 1 Cor. 15, Hebrews 6 and the passage in contention in Rev are very strong about advising a person to not go down a pathway of sin and disbelief because these things can lead to a heart becoming so callous that it can no longer sense the reality of God’s love and grace. But these passages do not suggest that God is incapable of reaching them either. f
So to suggest that in all of these passages, including the one in Rev about taking the mark all undeniably rule out the possibility of a person having the ability to confess, repent and find salvation in Christ, I must agree with MacArthur is an incorrect understanding of what is trying to be communicated. If we turn our back on God and then attribute this action as the backbone of not receiving grace, then we are essentially placing our focus on man’s ability to choose and work for salvation and not on God who gives grace, and gives faith so that no man may boast.
I believe in a gospel of grace that is given by God while we were still dead in our sins. I also believe that God’s servants are used to responsibly warn all about flirting with sin and disbelief. These servants are used of God in His sovereign purposes of Him giving us grace and faith! If this is a bad form of the gospel that I sense MacArthur and Piper subscribing to, then show me Biblically where we go wrong.
Only the KJV and NKJV (a false, satanic bible that removes “Jehovah” from the O.T.) tell us that Lucifer (son of the morning) and Jesus (morning star) are 2 different entities. They tell us that Lucifer is the devil, and that Jesus is God in the flesh! Only the KJV is the pure word of God in the English language, to believe otherwise is utter foolishness.
Anyone who gets tied into knots over supporting one particular version of Scriptures over another is not worthy of our attention. I believe that the KJV was a pretty good interpretation of scripture all things considered. However, the combination of the fact that the KJV is not written in a well understood language in the English world today combined with the fact that there have been more recent manuscripts found since the KJV was written immediately disqualifies the rationale that KJV is best. Why is it, do you think that many groups which I would consider “cults” are decided to use the KJV? It is not because they have decided that is most accurate, but because their membership will tend to fail to understand the texts because they sound confusing to their ears thus making them more susceptible to fall prey to false teaching from the cult. The point is that the language in KJV is confusing for people today for truly understanding the Bible, God’s Word.
ESV is a great interpretation. I would encourage you to spend your passion in looking at scripture and prayerfully interpreting those Scriptures through the lense of the whole of Scripture which is primarily focused on the fact that God is Great, we are not and for this we need Jesus…Do this instead of arguing over which version of Scripture is best.
I realize that I am NOT worthy of your attention since you have set the bar on the conversation about the Holy Scriptures. Regardless : So Greg, the obviously false E(xtremely) S(tupid) V(ersion) which states that Jesus fell from heaven and wants to be like God, is in you twisted opinion “a great interpretation.” Well, Greg, you certainly are worthy of Satan’s attention. You also state, “the fact that the KJV is not written in a well understood language in the English world today.” Yep, the following Holy Scripture verse from the KJV will be misunderstood by 99% of the American people because it was written WAY back in 1611 in a foreign language. Regardless, I will present it here just in case there might be a one-in-a-million chance that someone reading this post will be able to interpret it for us: The Book of Romans chapter 10, verses 9 to 15 (aka, Romans 10:9-15 in the old, misunderstood KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////I know, I know, that was crazy stuff, but I’m hoping that there is someone who might be able to interpret that for Greg, because it sure was one of the most difficult things I’ve read in years!! Here’s another tough one that I’m sure will stump you Greg, but take your time and see if you can possibly understand what God was trying to say : (good luck):
John 3:16-18 (The Gospel of John, chapter 3, verses 16 through 18)…
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Wow, that is a true total mystery!! No one today could EVER understand that gobble-dy-goop. Give me something easier, please!!//////////Well Greg, it looks like you were right, anyone who believes that Jesus kept his promise in Matthew 24:35 definitely does NOT deserve YOUR attention.
Greg, in your latest post you state, “Ultimately, no version of scripture is going to be perfect because language is an imperfect vehicle to transmit the beauty of a great God who transcends language and human understanding. The Bible is a great way to begin to know God and I tend to prayerfully read multiple versions of the Bible because some I will sense will do better than others at times…But they all will fail still to give a fully accurate picture of God because they are just human words that can steer a person wrongly if they hear incorrectly what those words mean. Some day we will see Him face to face and then and only then will we be capable of understanding Him fully beyond the incapability of human language today.” So, why do you believe anything? How do you know for sure what parts are the infallible, inerrant, true, and pure word of God and which are not? Because if they are not, then they are of Satan. At least that’s how God sees it: From the KJV, of course: Deuteronomy 4:2; 12:32; Proverbs 30:6; Revelation 22:18-19; Psalms 12:6-7; Matthew 24:35. You see, by stating that “NO version of the [bible] is going to be perfect”, you are calling Jesus and God the Father a liar. You are grieving the Holy Spirit, and honestly, Greg, I would not want to be in your shoes, so to say. If NO version of the scriptures is perfect, how do you possibly determine which parts are lies?? Because if they aren’t pure, then they are tainted. Period. Greg, God and His word are pure, not tainted. You can continue spouting your lies, but in the end you will be chastised by the Almighty God who promised that His word would NEVER pass away.
Mark 9:38. Nothing new under the sun. Happened then, happening now.
Bad trend??? It has been the trend of the Church since it’s inception. The charge of ” doctrine worshipers” makes me wonder if those who make the charge really care about that which they belive.
Remember that the early Christians gave their life for these doctrines you say are worshipped.
I just don’t see the fruit in this. You’re going to take down Piper and Mccarther, 2 tremendously godly men, because you disagree with some small things? We aren’t supposed to have divisions among us. They are human men with faults. We give them an unrealistic standard that they cannot be wrong in anyway. They do not save us. And neither of them have done anything to undermine Scripture. They are fruitful. God will deal with them if they are wrong. This is like gossip.
Jessica,
Calling out false teaching is not gossip. It is actually quite biblical. I haven’t seen anyone call these man unbelievers because of this, have you?
Blessings:-}
If they (Piper & MacArthur) were true believers, then why would they teach falsely? Answer: because they aren’t true believers. Period. False teachers deceive, and we are warned in the N.T. to let no man deceive us. MacArthur is dangerous because he teaches a false gospel. That is fundamental to becoming a true Christian. He doesn’t get anybody saved – Proverbs 11:30 states: “The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.” MacArthur doesn’t believe in soul-winning b/c he believes that God has already chosen those who are “saved”. He is a very dangerous false teacher. Period. Beware of the wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Jessica –
You are absolutely right with your comments here. Thank you for being a voice of reason among a crowd of people who apparently thirst for blood! John Piper and John MacArthur are still faithful expositors of God’s Word (who are involved in coordinating some of the best preaching conferences in the land for pastors, such as “Together for the Gospel”, “Shepherd’s Conference”, etc.) and they’ve done nothing offensive enough to warrant such attacks as are being issued against them here.
People love to sit in judgement over celebrity preachers whenever they do anything that displeases us in the slightest bit, but the biggest problem that’s coming to light in all of this isn’t the imperfection of people like John Piper (who is liable to sometimes make poor decisions, simply because he’s human as we are), but rather the idol-worship of the angry crowd, who had apparently put John Piper on too high of a pedestal in the first place and is now shocked to see him do something that they believe that he shouldn’t have.
Everyone would do well to remember that pastors – even famous ones – are still human. They struggle to make wise and God-honoring choices just as we do. And while they are held to the extremely high standard of biblical faithfulness (just as all of us should be) and additionally have the misfortune of being constantly watched in the “celebrity spotlight”, it’s not necessary for them to do everything just as we would in order to stay true to their calling.
Until we see men like this teach erroneous doctrine or fall into some undeniable sin, we have no reason to lash out against them as has been done by many people here. It’s certainly a great method on the part of the devil, though, to try to dismiss all of our best preachers one by one until there’s nobody left whom people trust to feed us biblical truth!
Let’s pray against this, though, and commit ourselves to only bringing public shame to those preachers who have truly succumbed to false teaching and sinful living (like so many who are on TV these days). There are more than enough false teachers who are worthy of theological rebuke without also attempting to throw the faithful, biblical preachers under the train, too!
Of course, each of us has to decide for ourselves who to trust and whose preaching to listen to, but personally, I still regard both Piper and MacArthur as faithful Bible teachers (until they give me good reason not to), and continue to be greatly edified – as both a Christian and a pastor – by their ministry of preaching and writing!
P Josh,
When you said “So, when the Bible teaches us that God elects unto salvation those whom HE chooses, we believe it to be true,” what that leaves us to ask is, who did God choose to offer salvation to, right?
That question is answered in John 3:16,17.
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”
Doesn’t this clearly say that His offer of salvation is to the world? And doesn’t that mean it’s human inhabitants? All of them?
To make sure we understood this He added; “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
2Peter 3:9
Blessings:-}
To Edwitness. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.( Yes God loved humanity, and then He makes a qualification that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.) to make it more clearer, if you go to verse 18 Jesus is talking about two different groups of people, the believer and the unbeliever
Yes the offer of salvation is to everybody, but many will reject it, Because, Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He cannot understand spiritual things (1Cor.2:14). Man’s heart is evil. (Mark 7:21-23). Man’s heart is sick. (Jer.17:9). Man is at enmity wiyh God. (Eph. 2:15). The only way the natural man will accept Jesus Christ is, if God takes out the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh. John 3:5 where Jesus is saying ,” unless one is born of water and Spirit, he can’t enter the Kingdom of God,”
Jesus here is talking to a Pharisee a ruler of the Jews.” Nico should know the Old Testament well. Jesus is quoting Ezekiel 36:25,26 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you and you will be clean, I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new heart and put a new Spirit within you, and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh, and give you a heart of flesh.
Notice all the the I WILL. He is the one that makes you born again. All you can do is accept it or reject it. But He makes the offer FIRST.
Thats why we say He first loves us.
Why do we make the Bible so hard to understand.
It’s a good practice to see first, to who is the verse you are quoting directed to in this case 2Peter 3:9 It says …….but is long suffering to us- ward, …….. My question who is the “us”, you will find the answer in 2Pet.1:1………….
to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ.
Peter here is talking to believers.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 : Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; ///Matthew 24:4, 5, 11, 24: “And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.; And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.; For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.//Romans 16:18 – “For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.”//Galatians 6:7 – “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.”//Ephesians 5:6 – “Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.”//2 Timothy 3:13 – “But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.”//1 John 3:7 – “Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.”// Well, well, well, it seems as though we Christians have been warned!! Plus this from Paul : “For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.”; and, “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.”//Now, it’s obvious that these men mean so much to so many people, but that’s precisely the problem. So, even when they preach false doctrine and twisting the Holy Scriptures, especially when it comes to salvation, they are given a pass because they are “so godly”!! Beware, be very aware, because they are the deceivers!!
Luke 6;25-26…(Jesus’ warning, which I am seeing here means NOTHING to you. Regardless I present it here.)…”Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.” So, keep speaking well of MacArthur and Piper, it just confirms what Lord Jesus said. Thank you.
The older I get, the more I believe that some really bad forms of pride are found in many who cling to every word of man in fear that they might upset them and thereby lose notoriety or fame. But I also believe that a worse type of pride is found in those who don’t care at all what anybody thinks of them because they are consumed with self justifying notoriety and self inclined fame…which equates to a willingness for coming across as crass and un-winsome towards a lost and dying world. That was NOT Jesus and that was NOT the apostles (for the most part with the apostles) They were not loved by the majority but they chose to be loving and other’s centered anyway to a point that there were a remnant who loved them in return with honor and respect.
We are not called to water the truth in God’s Word. But in this Word, God calls us to love people and care for people in ways that would cause them to be willing to listen to the Christian Gospel of love and forgiveness. Sometimes this will lead folks to respect those who show these forms of care and sometimes this will lead folks to be willing to hear the gospel message coming from those.
My spiritual giftedness is along the pathway of discernment and proclaiming truth but I have had to come to the realization that just proclaiming truth without love, gentleness and gratefulness to God for such an opportunity is not God’s truth.
Nothing is more loving than presenting the truth to people, regardless of how they react to it. Here’s a great example: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+7&version=KJV The truth will upset those who really don’t want to hear it, sometimes to the point where they either will want to kill you, or to the point where they will actually carry out the killing. Thus the comforting words of God found in Proverbs 29:25…”The fear of man bringeth a snare: but whoso putteth his trust in the Lord shall be safe.”
I did not look at your link, but I agree with some of your sentiment…However, look at the TRUTH in 1 Cor 13 and other passages like this that declare that if we are sharers of theological information without love towards the hearers, we are worthless. Truth being told by a person who has an utterly selfish and unloving attitude and demeanor towards the hearer does not give a full truth picture of the gospel proclamation. I will offer an exaggerated example of what I say here: A person who has a frown of disdain and anger on their face and angrily screams at a person across the way “Jesus loves you so much that He died in your place” does not depict an accurate truth picture of the gospel. Their verbal and non verbals are conflicting and unbecoming of what the gospel is. And this person most likely will be hated everywhere he goes and the gospel message as it had verbal items that were correct but non verbal cues that showed hate and not love does not make it appear to be very goodnews at all and thereby classifies this person as not upright before God. This person may be more in love with themselves as a loud screamer than they do a lover of God who IS LOVE, and a lover of people where kindness and gentleness in a gospel proclamation is commanded.
On the other hand, a person who loves people where they, with kindness, love, compassion, directness, proclaim that “Jesus loves you so much that He died in your place” gives both the verbal cues of a gospel of love and the non verbal cues of a gospel of love and is quite more in line with Biblical truth.
And ps. about the KJV vs ESV… I studied some of the empassioned KJV theorists this am (via google) and they had me go to passages such as Php 2:6 which in the ESV says,”[Jesus] who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped.” etc. The argument by KJV advocates is that this circumvents the idea of the trinity by using the word “grasped” and not the word “robbery.” I don’t agree. This passage very clearly calls Jesus equal with God but its main point is not about the triune nature of God (although clearly in there nonetheless) The main point is how our attitudes should be as human beings. Is the attitude that man should subscribe to that we should not consider our equality with God “robbery?” Of course not! That would be blasphemy! But that English word “robbery” in today’s world could take us there.
So when we look at the context of what is being said, it suggests that if God in the second person of the trinity, the Son, Jesus Christ who has always existed for eternity (equality with God) was willing to humble himself to even be willing to take on flesh and blood in the likeness of man, so we should also be willing to humble ourselves but not in the exact same way Jesus did but in the realm that we live as sheep. (Jesus is as different than men more than a builder of a house is different than the house,,,Book of Hebrews) We are called to humble ourselves in an attitude depicted by Jesus who is God, but with consideration of our humanness. An example of what I believe Paul is trying to say to us people: if I have a lot of money, I should be willing to sacrifice my riches for blessing the poor or for providing for a missionary out of love for them and the world because Jesus loves them too.
So when I personally see the word “robbery” in the KJV and (without going into all the details) the sentiment that this drums up in my mind in context of what is being said by Paul here about how WE should form our attitude as humans is that we should not consider it “robbery” to be robbed of our god-like, deified nature as well and this thinking is obvious blasphemy. I realize that most who read the KJV may not find resulting thinking from the way the KJV phrases this, but I still believe that the ESV and many others who leave out “robbery” do better to communicate the fullest intent of this passage.
Ultimately, no version of scripture is going to be perfect because language is an imperfect vehicle to transmit the beauty of a great God who transcends language and human understanding. The Bible is a great way to begin to know God and I tend to prayerfully read multiple versions of the Bible because some I will sense will do better than others at times…But they all will fail still to give a fully accurate picture of God because they are just human words that can steer a person wrongly if they hear incorrectly what those words mean. Some day we will see Him face to face and then and only then will we be capable of understanding Him fully beyond the incapability of human language today.
Blessings
Greg
I took He time to provide scripture verses (the pure word of God) to support the point I was trying to convey to you, yet you decide not to read THAT?!?! And you honestly think that I am going to waste my time reading your lengthy response? Nope, I stopped right there to post this.
Here are 2 sermons that might also help you and your family:
(1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0enU1n00Wgw&t=62s (“God is a consuming fire”…5 minutes long)
(2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbgbItfUea8 (“Satanic influences”…1 hour long)
A far as your son reading the bible: you are the spiritual leader in your home, sir, sit down with him, pray with him before even opening the bible, then read it with him. the more you do that, the better. If you continue to avoid reading the pure word found in the KJV, then it will always be “hard”.
Hi Mr. Yakich: Thanks for the advise. However, your infatuation with the KJV is worrisome to me. It seems to me such a focus on an INTERPRETATION of scriptures is the very similar to some concerns in Paul who addressed Timothy regarding…it was concerning avoiding irreverence as well as ignorant controversies.
Your concern about the KJV is irreverent and an ignorant controversy like I have ever saw one.
Please don’t share any more advise about the KJV etc. it is distracting from actually obeying the precepts such as the below which I believe is exactly representative of such a focus on division over slight variations of the Scriptures:
2Ti 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness,
2Ti 2:17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
2Ti 2:23 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels.
2Ti 2:24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
2Ti 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
2Ti 2:26 and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
So, just like the Pharisees and Saducees, you want the one who tells the truth (in this case a disciple of Jesus Christ) to stop what he’s doing. Jesus was right. Persecutions will come. Tribulations will come. But don’t worry, because He has overcome!! You are satanic, and the fact that you are attempting to shut me up because I want the truth to be known proves that point. You call Jesus a liar and I’m the one who has to cease and desist…ain’t gonna happen Satan.
I encourage you to read those 2 Timothy passages and digest. (It just dawned on me that you are a Timothy) 2 Tim is such a great letter…I read a piece of it last night to my 3 children.
And that Cross! That beautiful cross where Jesus not only died in our place to forgave us of all of our sin, but also gave us His righteousness! I delight in You My Savior!
You are a present-day Pharisees/Saducee…get thee behind me Satan!!
‘godly’ men don’t tell you to follow satan by taking the mark of the beast. And uh… oh yeah, it is a ‘biggie.’
My kids are homeschooled. They HATE reading some of their assigned classics when the book is in old English. From this, please understand the suggestion I make about old English Bibles. If these tend to distract folks from wanting to read them, then they may not. The pastor of our church uses the NKJV because this is what he has used for decades. I use ESV. He thinks they are both good interpretations.
But we would both want to become aware if there are concerns about ESV. Can you share with me some of the texts you are concerned about? If there are some passages that have not been interpreted well, I would be the first to want to know about these.
Thanks
Greg, it’s much deeper than that, sir. Besides, I already gave the most egregious example found in Isaiah 14:12; 2 Peter 1:19; and Revelation 22:16. You will have to do your own due diligence, your own investigating to see just how poorly, satanically (is that even a word?) written the other versions are. I do pray that you come to see the truth found in Matthew 24:35, et. al. Other than the fact that the other versions are satanic, you will find that from the KJV, logically, one can only find true Christian doctrine. From the satanic versions many false doctrines arise. Now, it is true that many cults have twisted the scriptures using the KJV, but that’s not the fault of the true, precious, inerrant, and infallible word, it’s the fault of the one doing the twisting. A great example of that can be found in the New Testament Gospels of Matthew (chapter 4) and Luke (also chapter 4), where Satan himself twisted the Holy Scriptures of the OT, but Jesus simply responded with the truth. Here’s one example that I can give you: Psalms 55:16-18…read that from the KJV and compare it to the NIV, ESV, NASB, and NLT. Then ask yourself this question: How can God possibly say in the KJV in verse 18 “with”, but in the other versions He says “against”?”strive with” (which means “against”)? If God is NOT the author of confusion, then why is there now confusion concerning this one rather obscure verse? That’s how Satan works Greg, he is very subtle to the point whenever someone will see this difference they might ask, “Hath God said?”…and doubt sets in. Another thing that’s interesting, if you “Search” the term “of one mind” in the KJV, you will see that Paul and Peter instruct believers to be “of one mind”. That can only happen if we are all on the “same page”, to say. And we can’t be on the same page at a bible study when there are different “versions” of the bible being used – and Satan LOVES that kind of bible study -, but if we all are at the bible study with the KJV, all reading the true, pure word of God together, then Satan is not happy, but God is both pleased and glorified!! As far as sitting down and reading the pure word of God found in the KJV, we are to first pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance and revelation so our minds can truly be renewed through His power, not our own. Blessings to you and yours.
“Be of one mind”:
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=KJV&quicksearch=of+one+mind&begin=47&end=73
This whole business about the mark of the beast is a non issue. Eschatology is a secondary issue where we can disagree without it affecting our core Christian doctrines. I think McArthur’s mistake is taking the mark of the beast in Revelation as a literal mark, and holding to a future tribulation.
When teaching on eschatology one should not present ones point of view as fact. Instead acknowledge that there are other views just as valid and maybe present them as well.
Eschatology is a SECONDARY issue? Really? You might want to read Revelation a few times. Jesus had John write it to R-E-V-E-A-L things to us, His followers. You think that that is 2ndary? Israel, here’s a tip for you, son : Acts 1:9-11; Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24: 21-31; Mark 13:24;28; Luke 17; 21:25-29; 1 Thessalonians 4;13-18; 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; and Revelation 6;12-13. See if you can find the correlation between all of those verses of Holy Scripture, then think about you silly statement that “eschatology is secondary”. Next, “Search” the term “The day of the Lord”, and relate those verses to those above. I pray that the Holy Spirit opens your eyes to His truths found in these great book, chapters, and verses. Why would the basis of a Christians current and future hope be “secondary”? That’s ridiculous.
Good morning Timothy,
I wholeheartedly agree, given the sign of the times, the current conditions in “religion”, economically and politically, the societal upheaval across the globe puts Revelation at the forefront today, it’s a warning of things to come, it is imperative for discerning the times. Far too many discount the importance of this book.
Amen, brother. Let no man deceive you, stay alert and aware, and I pray that you continue to spread the Good news along with God’s warnings. In Christ alone.
Wow. The writers on this website sure have all the correct answers. And you are so discerning to point out the flaws of the ” false teachers” such as piper and macarthur. Some of the comments here of critique and labling are “arguing over words” that the apostle Paul warned against like i have never seen on any other theology website. Although i love the Word and take it as literal truth, i believe it can be so over analyzed that one can miss the forest for the trees. So what that Piper is teaching with those who lean false…maybe he is reaching them with the gospel thus reaching thousands of their followers…all the while you condemn. Wow
So why did Christ publically condemn the Pharisees? Why didn’t he hold their hands and pray for their understanding? Why did Paul publically address Peter and his desire to blend Judaism with the new covenant? Twice in the Bible, it says “you are either for me or against me.” What could God possibly mean by that? Wow, what am I missing?
Thank you Sola Scriptura for revealing the truth and the lies. I marvel at how so many will hoist a man up and worship their erected ‘sacred cow,’ and it’s fine to criticize anything else, bible, doctrine, truth, etc., but just not their ‘man.’ (Who isn’t Jesus, by the way.) The comments here show the folly of many and I too have been round and round on that merry-go-round all too many times. We try to warn but they won’t see, the blind will lead the blind. When they are in the lake of fire for taking the mark (something some people on here claim is not really such a big deal, I wonder if they will then?), they will remember both the words of John MacArthur and the words of the Lord in Rev. 14; 9-11 where it states in direct contradiction:
“And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand, he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
And they will have had to learn the hard way who was right.
I’m surprised they didn’t even look at the video or admit that you are right after you did half of their homework for them.
It’s a deliberately confusing portion of scripture. He may be wrong, but that doesn’t dismiss a lifetime of fruit and faithfulness. It doesn’t reject Christ as our savior. And no teacher is right about every part of scripture. It’s not possible.
It is true that no teacher is right about every part of Scripture. I completely agree with you. I personally disagree with some portions of teaching in my favorite teachers of the Word at times, but it is typically over minor doctrines. A major doctrinal issue I have though is, ironically, the idol worship of theological doctrine for knowledge sake! It blows my mind the folks I have come across in my lifetime whose neck veins stick out with anger over perceived doctrinal issues they see in others all the while they are unloving and unkind and demonstrate irreverence to the very God the Scriptures they claim to understand is all about.
A simple example is one claims to believe that the very God who made everything in 6 days and saves people by grace that he gives for free and through faith that He also gives as a gift so that no man may boast. A person who worships knowledge about God and His gospel looks to sniff out any difference for a verbal battle because this makes them feel good about themselves. This type of knowledge does not save. A Christian on the other hand who walks by faith, in this faith literally considers the FACT that God exists. We are talking God who made the stars, galaxies, universe! This Biblical faith on this fact alone should knock them to their knees in absolute humility. By faith they believe that God created by the snap of His fingers so to speak. The result is that they worship with gladness and joy in their Creator! They by faith count as fact that the salvation is from God for us as a gift that we did not deserve because we were sinners dead and dying when He rescued us. This should so confound the proud that they consider themselves only as simple servants and children of a God who absolutely loves them without merit. In response they should love to love God by loving others in spirit and in truth because they love those folks enough with the love God gave for them!
Sure Jesus chastised the pharisees. My sense in many comments and articles I have seen across the internet and otherwise where a person is attempting to dismantle another’s view or perhaps completely write off a servant as “false” because they are “not Biblical” could gravely be goals to win arguments and not a result of biblical faith as demonstrated above that stirs their hearts to love others with love and truth given to them by God. God is only ultimately to judge but these very folks who are so demonstrative and overly vocal on even the minor issues and justify this demeanor by the fact that Jesus chastised the Pharisees should cause for that person to pause and look internally for the inner Pharisees that may still reside in their own hearts!
This is not a disagreement towards you, Jessica, but a lengthy comment in response to a lot of other comments I have seen on this website that don’t appear to be the Biblical fruit of true faith in the Word of God about the true God.
Happy New Years everyone and His truest blessings!
I couldn’t agree more!
ive noticed as i read blogs on catholicism vs. protestatnism./ hilarity\ at how the devil has both sides arguing about good works , the virgin mary and the the eucharist /.sola scriptura etc etc.I suppose i have to be grateful i got saved on my knees reading the new testament at the end of a terrible life of drug abuse. I suppose if i had gotten saved any other way i would have a lot of doubts also, but i thank god i dont , at least about salvation. What we need to proclaim is that as you would see on tops of mission buildings “JESUS SAVES”Iv;e read tons of books ,and also came out of a strong roman catholic background where my great uncle was a cardinal under pope and two of my uncles were jesuits. And after being saved for25 yrs.i keep coming back to the one truth that man cant honestly change or reinterpret That being that christ shed his blood to cleanse us from all sin and grant us eternal life and that message never changes like we do So who does god want saved? catholics or calvinists or protestants. Obviously he wants man all over to be saved and how about those who never heard the gospel/?So lets continue to preach christ and stop trying to figure it all out . for in my opinion and gods he chooses the foolish people. and we dont need know it alls/ they are a true stumbling block
Well said myfanwy. Free will is the constant. It was in Adam and it is in all men. By this man either is saved because he receives the gift of faith by which he receives the gift of eternal life or he does not. Love is the reason. Because without free will there is no real love. Every relationship shows this to be true.
Blessings:-}
John Piper many years ago was friends with “No Social Justice Warrior” Ronald Nash. Nash’s many books should be read again if memory fails most men. Christianity is NOT Social Justice. Then Piper got deceived by Marxist Tim Keller, in the Gospel Coalition.
Enough said or written. Just like in the field of science a philosophy of Max Plank regarding theories, ideas, die only with the death of those that promote them.
Rick Warren will take his false Christianity with him to his grave, as will many others. Eternal Horrors are coming for many for teaching what they do.
Sola Scriptura, the moniker you have named yourself is a deceitful and arrogant writer. Sad that you use it as it actually means something. Your arrogant tone and hard hearted replies reveals sin in your life. Put your name next to your posts or keep silent.
When I read the bible, I have a Calvinist viewpoint which I knew nothing of until I started looking into it. Christ died on the cross to offer a way for each and every one of us to be saved from our completely lost selves. Period. In Deuteronomy 7:7 ESV, John 15:19 ESV, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ESV, “chose you” is in each of the referenced verses. If you accept Christ as your savior and the scripture is stating “you”, then God is speaking to YOU or He would say “the people”, etc. if he was speaking to all people. I do not view “the chosen” Calvinist viewpoint as an elite class, etc. as stated in the above thread. I was saved at 45 years old so we do not know who will or will not accept Christ. That isn’t the point in the Calvinist viewpoint. We do not know who has professed but not really converted either. Only God knows that. My adult children aren’t saved. Does that mean they aren’t chosen by God? No, it doesn’t mean that because only God knows the plans He has for each of us. His timing is always right. We only need to discern false teaching of the Gospel and how we should glorify God by living for Him.
Donna, I agree wholeheartedly .
John Piper and the Gospel Coalition are Social Justice lies.