Pastors, don’t be a jerk. Be a shepherd.

Boyce College professor Denny Burk has a word of advice for pastors: A wise and courageous pastor will always remember the wisdom of Solomon when exhorting his people: “There is one who speaks rashly like the thrusts of a sword, But the tongue of the wise brings healing” (Prov.12:18). A good pastor is not going to use his words like a sword but like a scalpel. A sword and a scalpel are both made for cutting. But a sword is for killing. A scalpel is for healing. Even in confrontation, a pastor’s aim is not to deliver the coup de grâce but to heal.

Listen as Denny Burk offers appropriate ways for a pastor to treat family members. He writes:

The venting of the proverbial spleen seems to be the order of the day from cable news to social media and sometimes even in interpersonal interactions. We like to hear someone who agrees with our views “tell it like it is,” especially if the telling involves a few zingers against people whose views offend us. We thrive on this kind of outrage because it appeals to our sense of self-righteous indignation. It feels oh so good to be oh so right. And there’s nothing quite as satisfying as dressing down “those people” who don’t agree with us.

This spirit is destructive wherever it is found, but it is especially destructive when it stands behind a pulpit. Even for preachers, it can be tempting to turn the pulpit into a platform for outrage. When that happens, preaching can become more an expression of a carnal pastor’s irritations than a shepherd’s care for the people of God. This is not to say that preachers must avoid confronting sin. It is to say that whenever you have to confront someone, it matters how you say what you say—even if what you are saying is right.

Paul seems to have had this dynamic in mind in exhorting young pastor Timothy about how he was to address the different people in his congregation. In 1 Timothy 5:1-2, Paul says this:

1 Do not rebuke an older man but encourage him as you would a father, younger men as brothers, older women as mothers, younger women as sisters, in all purity.

At first blush, it can be a little confusing to hear Paul forbid Timothy from “rebuking.” Is Paul really saying that pastors must never “rebuke” anyone in the congregation? Doesn’t that contradict what Paul has said elsewhere about the necessity of rebuking false teachers? Doesn’t it contradict what the Bible says generally about the goodness of a faithful rebuke (Prov. 17:10; 27:5; 28:23)?

There really is no contradiction, however, as the problem is mainly one of English translation. The word translated as “rebuke” in the ESV probably isn’t strong enough. Rebukes can be life-giving and helpful, but that is not the kind of “rebuke” in view here. The literal sense of the term is to beat something with your fists. It is a term that in certain contexts suggests physical violence. But the word also has a figurative meaning that refers to verbal violence. The NIV’s “speak harshly” captures what Paul is trying to communicate. It is possible to abuse someone with fists. It is also possible to abuse someone with words. And Paul is saying that the pastor is forbidden from verbally assaulting his congregants.   Continue reading

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31 Responses to Pastors, don’t be a jerk. Be a shepherd.

  1. A. Amos Love May 23, 2017 at 9:22 am #

    Hmmm? – Pastors and Pulpits???

    This author writes…
    “Pastors, don’t be a jerk. Be a shepherd.”

    “This spirit is destructive wherever it is found, but it is especially destructive when it stands behind **a pulpit.** Even for preachers, it can be tempting to turn **the pulpit** into a platform for outrage.”

    Has anyone ever wondered? Why? In the Bible?

    NOT one of **His Disciples** ever became a…
    Paid, Professional, Pastor, in a Pulpit?
    Preaching, to People in Pews?
    Weak after Weak?
    In a church?
    Building?

    NOT one of **His Disciples** ever took the “Title” pastor?
    Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?

    NOT one of **His Disciples** ever called themselves pastor?
    Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?
    ——-

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    **THEIR shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
    BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

  2. Q May 23, 2017 at 4:37 pm #

    A. Amos Love,

    The bible does talk about church leadership… Do you have a pattern for the church today?

  3. A. Amos Love May 24, 2017 at 9:05 am #

    Hi Q

    Thanks for the response.

    You write…
    “The bible does talk about church leadership…”

    Well, that’s what I was taught, and believed, once upon a time.
    But, when I checked, the word “leadership,” is NOT in the Bible.

    And, while checking the Bible, I found…
    Jesus, has a unique take on “leaders” for **His Disciples.**

    “ONE”

    Haven’t you ever wondered? Why? In the Bible?
    Jesus taught **His Disciples** NOT to be called “leader?”
    For “ONE” is your “Leader,” that is, Christ?
    And NOT one of **His Disciples did?

    Mat 23:10-12 NASB
    Do NOT be called leaders;
    for “ONE” is your Leader, that is, Christ.
    But the greatest among you shall be your “Servant”.
    Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled;
    and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.
    ——-

    Humble – a modest or low estimate of one’s own importance.

    Know many, any, who take the postion of leader? Who are Humble?
    Having a modest or low estimate of their own importance?
    ——-

    **His Disciples** must have believed Jesus. Because, In the Bible…
    NOT one of **His Disciples** called them self “leader.” “servant-leader.”
    NOT one of **His Disciples** called another Disciple “leader.” “servant-leader.”

    If someone calls them self a “leader?” “church leader?”
    And allows others to call them “leader?” “church leader?”
    In “oppostion” to what Jesus taught **His Disciples?**

    Are they one of **His Disciples?** 😉

    Why isn’t what Jesus taught important?
    ——-

    And other sheep I have, which are NOT of this fold:
    them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
    and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
    John 10:16

    One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    • Q May 24, 2017 at 2:55 pm #

      Hi A. Amos Love,

      Humility is the first thing I look for in an overseer/elder… My question is, the bible teaches about meeting together as believers and doing things decently and orderly, do you have a pattern on how this should be done? And wouldn’t it require some type of administration and wouldn’t some be more qualified than others… How should it be done and what should it/them be called?

  4. A. Amos Love May 25, 2017 at 8:55 am #

    Q

    “My question is, the bible teaches about **meeting together as believers** and doing things **decently and orderly,** do you have a pattern on how this should be done?”

    Well, it’s NOT my pattern, but…
    Paul, and most likely Jesus, have set the pattern, in the Bible.

    Seems, in the Bible, when believers come together…
    ALL can, and are expected to, particapate. 😉

    1 Cor 14:26 KJV
    How is it then, brethren? when ye come together,
    **every one of you** hath a psalm, hath a *doctrine, (*teaching)
    hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation.
    Let ALL things be done unto edifying.

    1 Cor 14:31 KJV
    For ye may ALL prophesy “ONE” by “ONE,”
    that ALL may learn, and ALL may be comforted.

    1 Cor 14:40 KJV
    Let ALL things be done **decently and in order.**
    ——-

    BUT – This way of **meeting together as believers**
    Does NOT seem very popular, is NOT practiced much, if at ALL…

    In “Today’s Man Made Religious Systems.”
    That have “Pastors and Pulpits???”
    And “church leadership.”
    Yes?

    In my experience with “Today’s Religious Systems” it is evident that…

    Paid – Professional – Pastors – in Pulpits – Preaching – to People – in Pews…

    Prevent – Public – Participation – and – Promote – Passive – Pew – Peons….

    Procuring – Power – Profit – Prestige – for the Prevailing – Parsing – Pastor…

    Presiding over – Polite Pawns – Pressured to – Pray – Pay – Stay – and – Obey… 😉

  5. A. Amos Love May 25, 2017 at 9:54 am #

    Q

    My question is… To you…

    Did you know…In the Bible…
    NOT one of **His Disciples** ever became a…
    Paid, Professional, Pastor, in a Pulpit?
    Preaching, to People in Pews?
    Weak after Weak?

    Did you know…In the Bible…
    NOT one of **His Disciples** ever took the “Title” pastor?
    Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?

    Did you know…In the Bible…
    NOT one of **His Disciples** ever called themselves pastor?
    Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?

    Did you know…In the Bible…
    NOT one of **His Disciples** was ever “Hired” as a pastor?
    Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?
    ——-

    And, if you did know, the “Title?”“pastor/leader/reverend?”
    Does NOT exist in the Bible? For one of **His Disciples?**

    Have you warned your “pastor/leader/reverend?”
    That their “Title” does NOT exist in the Bible?
    For one of **His Disciples?**

    Have you warned “pastor/leader/reverends,” you know?
    That their “Title/Position” does NOT exist in the Bible?
    For one of **His Disciples?**
    ——-

    If being one of **His Disciples?** is important? To you? To them?
    Wouldn’t what Jesus taught **His Disciples?** be important?
    (”Do NOT be called Rabbi. For you have “ONE” teacher, Christ”)
    (”Do NOT be called leaders. For you have “ONE” leader, Christ”)

    Wouldn’t what **His Disciples?** DID, be important?
    (NONE “called them self” pastor. Or shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.)
    (NONE took the “Title,” pastor. Or shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.)

    Wouldn’t **His Disciples?** In the Bible, be a good place to start?
    Wouldn’t **His Disciples?** In the Bible, be a good example to follow?
    ——-

    Seems, the only “ONE” in the Bible, who called Himself…

    The “ONE” Teacher – The “ONE” Leader – The “ONE” Shepherd

    IS… {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    • Marinus L May 30, 2017 at 10:28 am #

      Amos. Do you know what the Bible says in ( Hebrews 13:17 ) Obey those who rule over you, it described here in this verse, that we are to obey the elders, of which one is the leader, we call him a pastor.( is it so offensive to you to call him a pastor? ) These men are appointed by God in the assembly. Authority has been given to them, and we should be submissive to that authority. The elders watch out for the souls of the flock and they will have to give account to God in the coming day.
      I just don’t understand what you are trying to say, if you had a bad experience in a church, does not mean that all churches are like that. We all have to respect the lines of authority which God has laid down. I understand that Christ is the Head of the church, but He appoints the elders in church and we are to obey them, as long they don’t violate that authority.

      ( 1Peter 5:1 ) Peter was a fellow elder, can we agree that he had the leadership role.

      Responsibility of an elder is described in 1Peter 5:2,3

      Financial reward must not be the motive for being an elder. This does not mean that an elder may not be supported by the local church; the existence of such full time elders is indicated in 1Timothy 5:17,18

      • A. Amos Love May 30, 2017 at 10:43 am #

        Jeremiah 22:22 KJV
        The *wind shall eat up **ALL** “Thy Pastors,”

        (*wind = ruwach = breath, mind, spirit.)

        ——-

        Jer 50:6
        “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
        **THEIR shepherds**
        have caused them to *go astray,*

        1 Pet 2:25
        For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
        BUT are now returned to
        the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

        {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

      • Q May 30, 2017 at 3:01 pm #

        Marinus L,

        I believe you are misunderstanding Hebrews 13:17 which is often misused. The verse is not meant to get one to submit to some ruler… It is meant to say ‘be persuadable (not stiff necked) to those who guide (serve) by their example.

    • Q May 30, 2017 at 2:04 pm #

      Hey A. Amos Love,

      I’m sorry for the delay getting back to you.

      You have made some good point and I wanted to see if you have a solution, it’s one thing to point out a problem and another to offer solutions.

      I don’t look so much to Jesus’ disciples for church governance as much as I do to Paul’s instructions on church polity, elders, etc., I’m not sure if 1 Corinthians 14 is a pattern Paul was laying out for every church or just giving instructions on what they were already doing, I need to study that out. Regardless the church should be much more organic and everyone should be given opportunity to minister…Paul instructed Timothy to publicly read scripture, preach and teach, James said not everyone should teach and both Paul and Peter taught that elders were to be an example and not an authoritarian.

      I do not agree with the way church is being done most of the time… and many of those who have usurped power in the body are going to be “last” others are in danger.

      My understanding is that pastors, elders and bishops/overseers are not separate people but is speaking of the same person and there should always be a plurality. I think it is unfortunate the word ‘poimen’ in Ephesians 4:11 was translated to pastor when it is translated shepherd everywhere else… Theopedia has an article on it I would recommend – https://www.theopedia.com/pastor.

      I look at elders more like older more experienced brothers in the body than anything else and there are no professional or ‘young’ older brothers.

      One other thing, I don’t believe pastor, teacher is the same person in Ephesians 4, the grammar doesn’t support it.

    • berlorac May 30, 2017 at 6:21 pm #

      A. Amos Love, I agree with much of what you are saying. We do have a problem with notions of “laity and clergy” where men are lording it over the “sheep.” But just because elders abuse their calling doesn’t mean there isn’t a calling and a position within the local church.

      1 Thessalonians 5:12-13 — “But we beseech you, brethren, to know those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; and to esteem them exceedingly highly in love for their work’s sake…”

  6. lyn May 25, 2017 at 11:52 am #

    A Amos Love,

    I appreciate your comments and fully agree. The way ‘church’ is done is a far cry from what the Bible actually teaches. Man has warped and twisted God’s truth for carnal reasons. Many exalt ‘self’ over others, some use their ‘title’ as a means for financial gain or immoral practices.

    “Let me not, I pray you, accept any man’s person, neither let me give FLATTERING TITLES unto men” (Job 32:31).

    The above verse was from a writing by A.W. Pink, I think you might agree with what he says – https://mikejeshurun.wordpress.com/2015/06/17/dont-call-me-doctor-call-me-brother/

    • lyn May 25, 2017 at 11:56 am #

      Correction, the verse is actually Job 32:22 – For I know not to give flattering titles; in so doing my maker would soon take me away.  KJV

  7. A. Amos Love May 25, 2017 at 12:21 pm #

    Hi lyn

    Thanks for the reply and encouragement.

    Yes…
    “The way ‘church’ is done
    is a far cry from what the Bible actually teaches.”

    And **Flattering Titles.** Oy Vey!!! 🙁

    Why do so many today? Take that “Title,” pastor?
    When it does NOT exist in the Bible?
    For one of **His Disciples?**
    ——-

    In my experience with the “Title/Position”
    Of *Today’s* pastor/leader/reverend…

    “Titles” become “Idols”
    “Pastors” become “Masters”
    “Leaders” become “Deceivers”

    “Titles” become “Idols”
    (“Idols” of the heart – Ezek14:1-11 KJV)

    “Pastors” become “Masters”
    (A big No, No. Mat 23:10 KJV, Mat 6:24 KJV)

    “Leaders” become “Deceivers”
    (Isa 3:12 KJV, Isa 9:16 KJV, Mat 15:14 KJV)
    ——-

    Let me not, I pray you, accept any man’s person,
    neither let me give **Flattering Titles** unto man.
    For I know NOT to give **Flattering Titles;**
    in so doing my maker would soon take me away.
    Job 32:21-22 KJV
    ——-

    Hi lyn

    Thanks for the reply and encouragement.

    Yes…
    “The way ‘church’ is done
    is a far cry from what the Bible actually teaches.”

    And **Flattering Titles.** Oy Vey!!! 🙁

    Why do so many today? Take that “Title,” pastor?
    When it does NOT exist in the Bible?
    For one of **His Disciples?**
    ——-

    In my experience with the “Title/Position”
    Of *Today’s* pastor/leader/reverend…

    “Titles” become “Idols”
    “Pastors” become “Masters”
    “Leaders” become “Deceivers”

    “Titles” become “Idols”
    (“Idols” of the heart – Ezek14:1-11 KJV)

    “Pastors” become “Masters”
    (A big No, No. Mat 23:10 KJV, Mat 6:24 KJV)

    “Leaders” become “Deceivers”
    (Isa 3:12 KJV, Isa 9:16 KJV, Mat 15:14 KJV)
    ——-

    Let me not, I pray you, accept any man’s person,
    neither let me give **Flattering Titles** unto man.
    For I know NOT to give **Flattering Titles;**
    in so doing my maker would soon take me away.
    Job 32:21-22 KJV
    ——-

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    **THEIR shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
    BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

  8. A. Amos Love May 26, 2017 at 8:39 am #

    lyn

    Just read the link you posted. Thanks…
    “DON’T CALL ME DOCTOR, CALL ME BROTHER”

    Yes, I agree…
    “I like what A.W. Pink had to say…
    About NOT receiving “Titles,” and “Honor,” from man.

    Seems Jesus warned **His Disciples** about those things. 🙂

    In John 5:41-44, Jesus said…
    I receive NOT honour from men.
    But I know you, that ye have NOT the love of God in you…
    How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another,
    and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

    What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
    What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.

    • lyn May 28, 2017 at 10:53 pm #

      Amos,

      You may be interested in this – http://www.apologeticsindex.org/9573-do-not-sign-church-covenant. I’ve been suckered into ‘church memberships’ in the past and now regret such nonsense. Since when do the elect of God have to become a ‘member’ of His church through the means of the flesh?
      I am a member of His church because He has purchased me with His blood, I do not need to jump through any hoops.

  9. A. Amos Love May 29, 2017 at 9:10 am #

    lyn

    Thanks again for the link.

    Yup – Bad idea – Signing “Membership Covenants”
    “Legal Membership Contracts” that are written…

    To try to protect the “501 c 3, IRS Corporation.”
    To try to protect the “church leaders.”

    When “church discipline” goes wrong.
    And becomes abusive. 🙁

  10. A. Amos Love May 30, 2017 at 8:55 am #

    lyn

    Thanks again for the link.

    Yup – Bad idea – Signing “Membership Covenants”
    “Legal Membership Contracts” that are written…

    To try to protect the “501 c 3, IRS Corporation.”
    To try to protect the “church leaders.”

    When “church discipline” goes wrong.
    And becomes abusive. 🙁
    ——-

    Here are two links you might enjoy.

    “The Wartburg Watch”

    Has written much on “Membership Contracts.”
    And other abusive tactics by “Today’s Religious System.”

    http://thewartburgwatch.com

  11. A. Amos Love May 30, 2017 at 8:57 am #

    lyn

    And “Spiritual Sounding Board”

    Works a lot with those who have suffered “Spiritual Abuse.”

    What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
    What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.

    • lyn May 30, 2017 at 9:23 am #

      Amos,

      Yes, I am familiar with SSB. The author of that blog leans heavily towards feminism and has faulty theology concerning women preachers, adhering to free will,etc. Yes, she does work for those abused, but her horrific theology is reason enough to steer clear of that blog.

    • Amy Spreeman June 1, 2017 at 9:39 am #

      (A. Amos Love, I removed your link to Spiritual Sounding Board.)

      • A. Amos Love June 1, 2017 at 10:19 am #

        Amy

        Sorry to hear you removed the link.

        That site has been a blessing to me for many reasons.

        Thanks for letting me know.

  12. A. Amos Love May 31, 2017 at 11:12 am #

    Welcome back Q

    You write…
    “…I wanted to see if you have a solution,
    it’s one thing to point out a problem
    and another to offer solutions.”

    “I do not agree with the way church is being done
    most of the time…”
    ——-

    Yes – I did NOT agree with the way church was being done, or taught.
    Because, most of what was being done, taught – Was NOT in the Bible.

    Example: The word “church.”
    Did my own research, printed out ever verse with the word church, ekklesia.
    Read those verses over and over, trying to understand…

    If you do your own research? Here are some questions to ask?

    In the Bible? – Did anyone ever…
    1 – *Go to* Church?
    2 – *Join* a Church?
    3 – *Lead* a Church?
    4 – *Plant* a Church?
    5 – *Pastor* a Church?
    6 – *Attend* a Church?
    7 – *Tithe* to a Church?
    8 – *Look for* a Church?
    9 – *Teach* Go to Church?
    10 – *Bring their friends* to Church?
    11 – *Become members* of a Church?
    12 – *Apply for Membership* in a Church?
    13 – *Call themselves, Pastor,* in a Church?
    14 – *Call themselves, Leader,* in a Church?
    15 – *Call themselves, Reverend,* in a Church?
    16 – *Give silver, gold, or money* to a Church?
    17 – *Build a building with a cross* called Church?
    ——-

    NOPE…
    These things ALL take place in “Today’s Corrupt Religious System.”
    BUT – Are NOT found in the Bible, for one of **His Disciples.**

    It took a few years, but eventually MY SOULution became.
    **and he went out, not knowing where he was going.**
    And I left “Today’s Corrupt Religious System.”

    Heb 11:8 NASB
    By faith Abraham, when he was called,
    obeyed by going out to a place
    which he was to receive for an inheritance;
    **and he went out, NOT knowing where he was going.**

    But you, Q, have to get it for yourself. From Jesus.
    MY Sheep – Hear MY Voice – and Follow ME. John 10:27.

    What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
    What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.

  13. A. Amos Love May 31, 2017 at 11:43 am #

    Q

    It took a few years before I could rip-up my papers. Yes – I was ordained. In “leadership.” And, a few more years before I knew I was NOT going back. Those were some lonely, very dark, days. Lots of years and lots of tears. Everything I thought I knew, believed, was turned upside down.

    Today, most believers know “Today’s Religious System,” is broken. And they “do not agree with the way church is being done,” in the 501 (c) 3, Non-Profit, Tax $ Deductible, Religious $ Corporation, that the IRS calls church. But, believers keep trying to “tweak,” make better, a “Corrupt Religious System.” NO matter how many improvements, how many NEW mysteries are revealed, greater knowledge, non-abusive pastor/leaders, it’s still “A Religious System,” and it is still “Corrupt.” Because most of what happens, takes place, in “The Religious system,” is Commandments of Men, Doctrines of Men, Traditions of Men that *Make Void* “The Word of God.” Mark 7:13. And, NOT found in the Bible.

    Hmmm? Should believers call an IRS Corp. “The Church of God?”
    Did Jesus shed His Blood for an IRS corporation? A business?
    An organization? An institution? A denomination?

    NO – Jesus shed His Blood, for you and me, His Church.
    His Ekklesia, His Called Out Ones, His Body.

    WE, His Sheep, His Disciples, can NOT “Go” someplace that WE, are. 😉

    When you believe the lie you start to die…

  14. A. Amos Love May 31, 2017 at 11:54 am #

    Q

    Yes – I agree when you write…
    “I look at elders more like older more experienced brothers in the body than anything else and there are no professional or ‘young’ older brothers.”

  15. A. Amos Love May 31, 2017 at 12:43 pm #

    Q – berlorac

    Q writes…
    “My understanding is that pastors, elders and bishops/overseers are not separate people but is speaking of the same person and there should always be a plurality.”

    berlorac writes…
    “But just because elders abuse their calling doesn’t mean there isn’t a calling and a position within the local church.”
    ——-

    There is a reasonable controversy…
    If these three words, pastor/elder/overseer, refer to the same person.
    Some would say NO.

    Today, Elders, in most congregations come from within. Volunteer.
    (Known, – NOT paid.)

    Today, Pastors, almost always, come from without. Hired and Fired.
    (NOT known, – paid.)
    ——-

    And, “IF” there is a “calling and a position within the **local church.**”
    Why are “The Qualifications” for an elder to be an overseer so very, very tough?

    I say “IF” because **local church,** is NOT mentioned in the Bible.
    And in Titus, Paul said, “Ordain elders in every CITY – NOT, in the **local church.**

    I say “IF” because **elder** means older, NOT necessarily a position.

    I say “IF” because “The Qualifications” for an elder to be an overseer.
    Are very, very tough.

    Haven’t you ever wondered? Why? In the Bible?
    Paul, and most likely Jesus, gave such tough Qualifications for elder/overseer?

    Yes – The Bible mentions elders and overseers.
    The Bible also mentions Qualifcations for an elder/overseer.

    Can you have one without the other?

    NOPE…

    In my experience, “most” congregations, pew sitters, do NOT even know the 17+, qualifications. Or take them seriously. And, “most” who call themselves “pastor/elder/overseer,” even when they do know the qualifications, will “Ignore,” or “Twist,” the 17+, Qualifications in 1 Tim 3:1-7, and Titus 1:5-8.

    When a pastor/elder/overseer does NOT meet the qualifications???

    Shouldn’t they remove themselves?
    And be a good example to the Flock? 🙂

  16. A. Amos Love May 31, 2017 at 1:02 pm #

    Q – berlorac

    When was the last time you interviewed a pastor/elder/overseer?

    Face to Face?

    Or even watched from afar?

    And referred to the 17+, tough Qualifications, in 1 Tim 3:1-7, and Titus 1:5-8?

    To see “IF” they Qualify to be a pastor/elder/overseer? 🙂

    • Q May 31, 2017 at 2:59 pm #

      A. Amos Love,

      I believe the so called ‘Pastoral Epistles’ were written not so much for elders but for the body to know what an elder should be like and how the church should operate so to speak and judge accordingly…

  17. Q May 31, 2017 at 2:50 pm #

    A. Amos Love,

    You’re making assumptions about me…

    I don’t agree with this guys theology but do his premise –

    https://youtu.be/xiPrUE4qVv8

  18. A. Amos Love June 1, 2017 at 10:29 am #

    Q

    Sorry I sound like I’m making assumptions about you.

    I’m NOT sure where, or how, that would be.

    I was enjoying the conversation.
    ——-

    Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another:
    and the LORD hearkened, and heard it,
    and a book of remembrance was written before him
    for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
    Malachi 3:16

  19. A. Amos Love June 2, 2017 at 11:45 am #

    Q – berlorac

    Here are two more “Qualifications” in Titus…
    That most pastor/leader/elder/overseers, “Ignore,”or “Twist.”

    2 – JUST
    Strongs #1342 – dikaios {dik’-ah-yos} from 1349;
    Thayers – 1) righteous, observing divine laws
    1a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
    1a1) of those who seem to themselves to be righteous,
    who pride themselves to be righteous, whether real or imagined
    1a2) innocent, faultless, guiltless
    1a3) used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting
    is wholly conformed to the will of God,

    3 – HOLY
    Strongs #3741 – hosios {hos’-ee-os}
    Thayers – 1) undefiled by sin, free from wickedness,
    religiously observing every moral obligation, pure holy, pious.
    ——-

    Now that’s three tough Qualifications for “pastor/leader/elder/overseer” – Yes?
    1 – Must Be BLAMELESS.
    2 – JUST. 3 – HOLY.

    Know many, elder/overseers, who meet just these three Qualifications?
    And their children must also Qualify. Oy Vey!!!

    When a pastor/elder/overseer does NOT meet the qualifications???

    Shouldn’t they remove themselves?
    And be a good example to the Flock? 🙂