In a spot on piece over at Pulpit & Pen, Costi Hinn calls for Christians to get back to the basics, meaning biblical Christianity. He raises a two fold question: “What in the world has happened to the body of Christ and what semblance of biblical orthodoxy will be left for our children and grandchildren?” The way things are going, the younger generation will grow up with scant knowledge of what God’s Word says and they’ll trust, not in the authority of the infallible Word of God, but instead they’ll lay aside their bibles and trust in extra biblical revelation uttered by infallible men.
In this short blog post, Hinn exposes some of the errors professing Christians have bought into, not realizing that they’re actually believing lies from the pit of hell. How could this be? Two words: Biblical illiteracy.
Costi Hinn’s article is a must read. We urge you to share it with family and friends. He writes:
Where do you draw the charismatic line?
30 years ago nobody would’ve given this question much thought because it was easy to answer. People either liked Benny Hinn or thought he was crazy. People thought Kathryn Kuhlman was a great woman of God or a dramatic fraud. People were largely conservative, or charismatic. They either spoke in tongues that made no sense or viewed the practice as foolish and unbiblical.
It wasn’t a perfect Christian world, but at least there was some clarity.
Nowadays, it seems that people are down right confused or just uninformed, which means that a generation of millennials is heading for an even foggier future. Some people call themselves open but cautious when it comes to signs and wonders, while others called themselves Reformed Charismatics. Our favorite bible teachers are sharing stages with charlatans. Millions of Charismatic Catholics are now muddying the waters of evangelicalism, and whoever thought the day would come when we would have Charismatic Calvinists? Some people say revivalists like Bill Johnson are heretical, but won’t stop listening to Jesus Culture or Bethel Worship. Still others say they listen to John MacArthur for solid Bible teaching, but still, go to Benny Hinn crusades to get the “anointing.”
What in the world has happened to the body of Christ and what semblance of biblical orthodoxy will be left for our children and grandchildren?
In the name of ill-advised tolerance, and because of the wide variety of charismatic entry points, total confusion has taken the place of clarity, and “doctrine” has become a four-letter word.
People are mesmerized by the supposed gift of some gibberish-like tongues, or tearfully hoping that a faith healer can offer the solution for their terminal cancer. It is imperative that Christians understand the importance of biblical literacy when it comes to discerning truth and error. It’s of subsequent importance that Christians be able to convey the truth they’ve come to know.
Three common factors cause biblically illiterate Christians to end up as sitting ducks for destructive heresies (2 Peter 2:1):
- It Feels Good
A common trap for those caught up in the signs and wonders movement of Jesus Culture or Bill Johnson’s Bethel Church. The music is sensual, the lyrics unbiblical, “but it makes me feel so good,” said a former colleague of mine who now attends the Bethel Supernatural School of Ministry. Christians need to be resolute in their passion for truth no matter how good something sounds or what “goosebumps” they claim to feel. 2 Peter 2:2 reminds, “And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned.”
Case and point….
Jesus Culture’s Kim Walker-Smith is an incredible singer, with the band to boot. So it’s not surprising that many people feel “touched” with emotion during her musical renditions. What’s the problem? Well since it feels good for the emotions, her babbling in tongues with no interpreter from 4:55-5:18 is overlooked as some mystical experience that God is involved in. Anyone who knows their Bible would know He is not involved in this ludicrous rhetoric. In fact, based on God’s very word, Kim should sit down and be quiet since nobody could interpret (1 Corinthians 14:28).
Watch the video – finish reading Costi’s piece
See our White Papers on Discernment and the New Apostolic Reformation
If one reads scripture this was foretold to happen, in the last days men will heap teachers unto themselves, teachers that will even deny the person of Jesus Christ, teaching error that their itching ears want to hear. If we can’t see the separation that’s happening before our eyes we are blind. The bride is coming out of Churchianity, God is calling out His own out of the world. What’s left of Protestant Churchianity will meld with Rome, Islam, and every other “ism” coming down the pike. The Bible says the word of The Lord will be scarce, just like faith and truth…………… The Great Apostasy is unfurling before our eyes, yet so many can’t or won’t see it. Get ready folks! Maranatha!
Yes, the great apostasy is upon us. I’m reminded of Isaiah 28:The only problem is that there may be an understandable but too extreme reaction against such obviously erroneous – even demonic – manifestations that are claimed to be of the Holy Spirit.
Seeing the operation of another, false spirit, we can go to the other extreme into Cessationism. This is especially true concerning the gift of tongues and a misunderstanding of the present role of true prophecy. These spiritual gifts are still needed – especially the one of “Discerning of spirits” – to counteract the horrible flood of the false, devilish version.
I’m reminded of Isaiah 28:8 “For all tables are full of vomit, no place is without filthiness.”
The true gift of tongues, given by the true HOLY Spirit is NEVER accompanied by hype and hysteria. It is no different from hearing a foreign language spoken, with distinct words, sentences, intonation etc. But because of the false this gift (in particular is often rejected.
Jeanette said,
[The true gift of tongues, given by the true HOLY Spirit is NEVER accompanied by hype and hysteria. It is no different from hearing a foreign language spoken, with distinct words, sentences, intonation etc]
Absolutely true, Jeanette! But, more than that, it is being able to speak a foreign language without previous knowledge of the language. Do you have this gift? To be able to speak and/or interpret foreign languages?
Hi berlorac
The idea that “Tongues” is merely speaking a foreign language without having learned is a misunderstanding. The uses of this gift are (and no doubt also were in the early days of the Church) far wider than that.
The counterfeit or misuse of this gift of course increases the confusion. I can understand why some Christians turn their backs and deny the whole thing is for today.
Acts 2 and 1 Corinthians 12-14 are maybe the main references on this subject. Acts 2 simply records what happened, 1 Corinthians teaches on the proper use and regulation of this and other gifts during a meeting. And especially (chapter 13 of course) that their use must always be in love.
The first language of those from further parts of the Roman Empire would be varied, as Acts 2 says. But almost everyone present would have understood Aramaic of Greek or both – especially a simplified form of Greek (“Koine”). Peter probably preached in Koine Greek after a curious crowd had gathered.
So in Acts 2, tongues were a sign, not an alternative to learning a foreign language.
I heard of an incident like this in modern times. A lady spoke in tongues during a time of worship at a conference in England. There were a group of Welsh people there. Welsh was their first language, although they were also fluent in English.
After the meeting they went up to the lady and began talking excitedly to her in Welsh. She looked completely blank, not understanding a word. But apparently she had been speaking in tongues in Welsh, which nobody else, including her, understood!
But this doesn’t seem to be the usual or even most common use of “Tongues”, even (probably) in Acts. Neither is interpretation necessarily a simple word-for-word translation. In my experience the one who interprets has no idea what is being said in tongues. Instead God gives him the “Sense” of it. The interpretation can be prayer, praise, proclaiming the glory of God, intercession etc.
You asked “Do you have this gift? To be able to speak and/or interpret foreign languages?”
My answer is yes to the first sentence and no to the second.
Jeannette, thanks for your reply.
You said, [The first language of those from further parts of the Roman Empire would be varied, as Acts 2 says. But almost everyone present would have understood Aramaic of Greek or both – especially a simplified form of Greek (“Koine”).]
All of the believers present in the room and who received the gift of tongues were Jews from Galilee (Acts 2:7). Having received this gift from the Spirit, they began to speak the word of God. As this was happening, men from all over the world who were in Jerusalem for the Feast of Pentecost heard the commotion and went to see (Acts 2:5-6). They heard the Galileans speaking in their (the foreigners’) native tongues. There is no intimation that the foreign hearers were saved; therefore, we know they had not received any gift from the Spirit. Instead, it was the Galilean believers who had received the gift who were now speaking such that the hearers could understand in their own languages (Acts 2:8). There were many languages and dialects, considering that there were men present all the way from Mesopotamia (ancient Babylon) to Arabia to Crete.
[Peter probably preached in Koine Greek after a curious crowd had gathered.] If you’re trying to say that Koine Greek would have facilitated the ability for the foreign hearers to understand the Galileans, you’ve just defeated the miracle and the purpose for the gift of tongues.
[So in Acts 2, tongues were a sign, not an alternative to learning a foreign language.] Again, your reasoning here is flawed. Yes, primarily, tongues were for a sign, but the Galileans were speaking in other languages such that the foreign hearers could understand.
Turning to 1 Corinthians 14, we see that the Christians in Corinth were speaking in foreign languages within the assembly. Paul makes it clear that if no one could interpret then it was pointless because no one would be edified. The point of being able to speak the foreign language was to speak the word of God to those of another language, the same as in Acts 2. If no one in the assembly understood the speaker and if the speaker could not offer the interpretion, he was to keep silent.
[Neither is interpretation necessarily a simple word-for-word translation. In my experience the one who interprets has no idea what is being said in tongues. Instead God gives him the “Sense” of it. The interpretation can be prayer, praise, proclaiming the glory of God, intercession etc.] Where does Paul say that it’s not necessary for the translation to be word-for-word? Just the opposite, in 1 Corinthians 14:13, the word “interpret” is “diermeneuo” and it means “to explain thoroughly, to translate, to expound.”
[The idea that “Tongues” is merely speaking a foreign language without having learned is a misunderstanding.] Can you show me from the Scriptures where the gift of tongues is something other than being able to speak a foreign language?
[The uses of this gift are (and no doubt also were in the early days of the Church) far wider than that.] Can you show me from the Scriptures where the use of tongues was far wider than being able to speak a foreign language?
Jeannette, it seems that you have some understanding of tongues, but that you don’t have a thorough understanding that can only come by intense study of the Scriptures. I like your enthusiasm, but that’s no substitute for Biblical correctness. But don’t let me scare you off. Please stick around and join in here.
berlorac
You ask…
“Can you show me from the Scriptures
where **the use of tongues** was far wider
than being able to speak a foreign language?”
——-
1 – How about, “the use of tongues,”
When WE, His Sheep, His Disciples, His Ekklesia…
Will speak to God, and NOT man?
2 – How about, “the use of tongues,”
When my spirit prays?
3 – How about, “the use of tongues,”
So the spirit prays…
When WE, His Ekklesia, His Church, His Body…
**know NOT what we should pray for?**
———-
1 Cor 14:2 KJV
For he that speaketh in **an unknown tongue**
speaketh NOT unto men, but unto God:
**for NO man understandeth him;**
howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
(Isn’t **tongues* here – NOT a known human language?)
1Co 14:14 KJV
For if I pray in **an unknown tongue,**
***my spirit prayeth,***
but my understanding is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15 KJV
What is it then?
**I will pray with the spirit,**
and I will pray with the understanding also:
I will sing with the spirit,
and I will sing with the understanding also.
Rom 8:26 KJV
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities:
**for we know NOT what we should pray for as we ought:**
but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us
with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Hello A. Amos Love, good questions.
In regards to 1 Corinthians 14:2, 14 that’s why there needs to be an interpretation. Either someone in the assembly speaks that language, or the speaker himself has to interpret. Otherwise, it is not edifying.
In regards to 1 Corinthians 14:14-15, go back to 1 Corinthians 12:1-2. These guys had been pagans and in the pagan world, prayers to their deities were often made in “utterances” which were not known languages, but only “babblings.” Now, Paul has to correct them so that in the use of the gift of tongues, they would not mistake it with their old use of utterances. Therefore, Paul says that if he prays in a language he does not understand, it is unfruitful; instead, he will pray in the spirit but with the understanding as well. So, once again, we are back to the gift of tongues being an understood language. Either the speaker/prayer has to understand the foreign language (and interpret if others are present) or someone else has to interpret the foreign language for the edification of all present.
In regards to Romans 8:26, this is not spoken prayer; in fact, it states the opposite. The Holy Spirit works within us when we do not know what to pray and His “groanings cannot be uttered.” It is silent prayer in which the one praying may only experience an emotional response to a situation, but no words are spoken, not even utterances.
I hope that helps…
berlorac
You say…
“So, once again, we are back to **the gift of tongues**
**being an understood language.**”
Hmmm? I’m NOT seeing that at all.
Paul, in 1 Cor 14:2 KJV, says…
When someone speaks in, **an unknown tongue**
**NO man understands him.**
1 Cor 14:2 KJV
For he that speaketh in **an unknown tongue**
speaketh NOT unto men, but unto God:
**for NO man understandeth him;**
Paul, in 1 Cor 14:2 ESV, says,
When someone speaks in **a toungue.**
**NO one understands him,**
1 Cor 14:2 ESV
For one who speaks in a tongue
speaks NOT to men but to God;
**for NO one understands him,**
but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.
If NO one understands “him”??? Who speaks in a tongue???
When “him” has, “the gift of tongues?”
How is that, **being an understood language?**
A. Amos Love,
Exactly. When the speaker says something in a language for which there is no one present who understands that language, then no one understands. If no one understands, then the speaker needs to keep silent because there is no interpreter. If no one can interpret, then whatever the speaker says is a mystery known only to God, and is not edifying to the assembly (or even the speaker).
A foreign language is a legitimate language (understood somewhere in the world, by some group of people). Speaking in tongues is not glossolalia (babbling, utterances).
berlorac
You write @ February 20, 2017 at 12:20 pm #…
“Either someone in the assembly speaks that language,
or the speaker himself has to interpret.
Otherwise, **it is NOT edifying.**”
Well, do you have to be someone who “speaks that language?”
Or, just someone who can hear from Jesus? (My sheep hear My voice.)
To, **interpret the unknown tongues?”
The tongues that **NO man understands?**
——–
And, you write…
**it is NOT edifying.**
Well, that could be happening in “the assembly.”
with out someone who will interpret.
But, Paul, said, “edification” comes by he that “prophesieth”
1 Cor 14:3 KJV
But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men
to “edification,” and exhortation, and comfort.
“Prophesieth”
Strongs # 4395 – propheteuo – prophesy
To foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration,
Thayers – propheteuo – KJV – prophesy 28, times.
1) to prophesy, to be a prophet, speak forth by divine inspirations, to predict
1a) to prophesy
1b) the idea of foretelling future events pertaining esp. to the kingdom of God
1c) declare, a thing which can only be known by divine revelation
1d1) to teach, refute, reprove, admonish, comfort others..
———-
Do you have folks, where you fellowship, who prophesy?
“For ye may ALL prophesy one by one…” 1 Cor 14:31 KJV
———-
Paul, also said…
There is a benefit to speaking in **an unknown tongue.**
That NO man understands…
1 Cor 14:4 KJV
He that speaketh in an unknown tongue **edifieth himself;**
but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
———-
Do you have folks where you fellowship who **edify themselves?**
By speaking in **an unknown tongue?**
That NO man understands?
Do you have folks where you fellowship who prophesy?
And edify the church?
A. Amos Love,
I’m not finding any place here for me to continue. It seems we will go round and round. You won’t change my mind concerning the gift of tongues, nor — it seems — will I change yours. As much as my flesh would like to continue for sake of proving myself right, I will refrain, considering this to be a non-salvation issue. Let my responses to you stand as is.
berlorac
Thank you for the respectful conversation.
Then they that feared the LORD
spake often one to another:
and the LORD hearkened, and heard it,
and a book of remembrance was written before him
for them that feared the LORD,
and that thought upon his name.
Malachi 3:16
@ Jeanette Perry. 1 Cor. 14:21,22 in the Law it is written,”By men of strange tongues and by the lips of strangers I will speak to the people, and even so they will not listen to Me,” says The Lord. (22) So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.
Moses was worried that the people would not believe him, that God send him. So God told Moses the sign of the rod that became a snake and his hand became leprous. These signs were that The Lord, the God of their fathers has appeared to you.And if they still did not believe him, he was to take water from the Nile and throw it on the ground, where it will turn to blood. The purpose for these signs was that the children of Israel would believe that Moses was sent by God.
And when the people were speaking in tongues on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-21) Peter declared,” This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.”
The purpose was , that the people would know that the message brought by Peter and the others was God’s message.
In John 4:48 Jesus said to the nobleman,” unless you people see signs and wonders, you would not believe.
In every instance, the sign gifts were a confirmation of God’s message and messengers, in order that people might hear and believe.
But the signs fade away, we don’t need those signs to be repeated in our life,
God gave us the Bible and today we live by faith.
Excuse the typos in the comment, web page playing up. Is it possible to edit?
This is how it went down back when people actually spoke in tongues:
“Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.”
Acts 2:6-11 KJV
http://bible.com/1/act.2.6-11.kjv
berlorac wrote to A. Amos Love:
//I’m not finding any place here for me to continue. It seems we will go round and round. You won’t change my mind concerning the gift of tongues, nor — it seems — will I change yours. As much as my flesh would like to continue for sake of proving myself right, I will refrain, considering this to be a non-salvation issue. Let my responses to you stand as is.//
I know, that’s the difficulty:
In the days when the Acts and the epistles were written everyone in the churches would have understood spiritual gifts, but how can one explain what the (genuine) gifts are like to someone with no personal experience of them? Or how is it possible to distinguish the genuine in among all the horrible fake manifestations?
Personal experience is of course in no way a substitute for scripture, but it can serve to explain what the relevant scriptures actually MEAN. Without it, maybe you are right, we can only go around in circles.
I KNOW (as A. Amos Love must) that there is a genuine gift of tongues that is from the Holy Spirit, and that it is something unexplainable, and not necessarily a known language, and that interpretation isn’t necessarily a straight translation. I have experienced something of the uses and misuses of this gift. For me it is mostly in private prayer, praise, intercession etc. when you haven’t a clue how to pray or what to pray for, and when ordinary words are not enough.
I also know that there are times when even those words are not enough, and the “Groanings” of Romans 8:26 are all that is left.
I have heard genuine interpretations of tongues, and one that was not genuine. In both cases I had no idea what the words in tongues actually meant. Which sounds odd, but is true – somehow, without knowing what has been spoken you usually KNOW if it correct or not.
Hey, Jeannette, you said, […how can one explain what the (genuine) gifts are like to someone with no personal experience of them?]
Why do you assume I have no personal experience? I was in a Pentecostal/Charismatic church for 4 years and “spoke in tongues.” I even had “ecstatic experiences.” I played drums on the worship team and witnessed many “manifestations,” including “tongues,” particularly on the Sunday night “worship and prophetic” services.
I praise God that He led me out of it and now I can see the truth. I know that the Antichrist will come with all signs and lying wonders, but I won’t be deceived in the least because the Lord Yeshua has shown me the true from the false. I pray that He will do the same for you.
Sadly, berolac, you seem to have reacted to false “ecstatic experiences.” by turning against both false and true.
That is another ploy of the Enemy.
My personal experience of genuine tongues has never been “Ecstatic”, but very matter-of-fact. It was not in a meeting, but when alone (In the early 1970s) and at first I actually tried to refuse it!
I was pondering on the fact that this gift doesn’t make you a better Christian, when the Lord popped the thoughts into my mind, “You know all that. Now if *I* want you to speak in tongues are you willing?” I said aloud, “No fear” I don’t want anything supernatural!”
But how can you refuse a gift from someone you love and trust? “Sorry, Lord. OK, whatever you like.” And about a week later odd words began to pop into my mind. At first I was very unsure and had to check with the Lord if it really was from Him. And even then I wouldn’t speak aloud, even when alone, for a long time.
…My dear Brother, I hope this doesn’t sound patronising because it’s not meant that way, but have you considered the possibility that you never actually experienced the true gift of tongues? I’m not saying it was demonic, (it probably wasn’t) but maybe the result of wishful thinking and pressure from others?
One of the things that goes on in many Pentecostal circles is the foolish and unbiblical practice of trying to “Teach” people to speak in tongues, as in “Say after me…”. It makes me cringe!
Someone may so desire this gift that they obediently try to make a few words or sounds and convince themselves that they now have “It”. I’ve heard that too, sincere folk who love the Lord but obviously have never known the real gift from God and just babble out a string of nonsense.
Jeannette, I hope you don’t take this wrong, but I have to ask you… Why isn’t the written word of God enough for you? Why do you seek to have more words? Why is it not enough to give someone a word straight from the Bible?
I pray that you will be “filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, to walk worthily of the Lord unto all pleasing, bearing fruit in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God.”
“Why isn’t the written word of God enough for you?”
Brother, you don’t understand!
That is like saying to someone who is going abroad, “You have a detailed map and travel guide, isn’t that enough for you?”
The written Word is wonderful and we need NO other map or guide in all matters of faith and practice.
But just as the man going abroad has to actually GO there, not just sit at home and study the book, so the scriptures have to become the living Word in our lives and enable us to walk with the Lord, listening to Him in each step of the Way, checking constantly with the Book to make sure we are still on the right path.
I have learned, whenever it seems the Lord is saying something – especially on a personal level – to make sure it is confirmed in scripture. Otherwise I would have to assume it’s just my own foolish thoughts and impressions.
The BIBLE itself says that the words on their own are not enough!
For example, in 2 Corinthians 3 (emphasis added in this and following quote) :
//3 and you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God.
5 Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God,
6 ¶ who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not in a written code but in the Spirit; FOR THE WRITTEN CODE KILLS, BUT THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE.//
And there is this extraordinary passage in John 6):
//60 ¶ Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?”
61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, “Do you take offense at this?
62 Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before?
63 IT IS THE SPIRIT THAT GIVES LIFE, THE FLESH IS OF NO AVAIL; THE WORDS THAT I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU ARE SPIRIT AND LIFE.//
How can that fit in with the idea that the words of the Bible are by themselves enough?
When Jesus said in John 6 that we have to “Feed” on Him, and that His words are “Spirit and life”, he makes it plain that he is not speaking of mere words, any more than He means anyone to literally eat His flesh or drink His blood. Yet we CAN and do feed on Him, and on the words of scripture by faith and by the Spirit.
It is the written Word together with the Holy Spirit who illuminates the words, received and absorbed into our spirit and acted out in our lives that truly give life.
The written Word itself says so.
In regards to 2 Corinthians 3, Paul is contrasting the Mosaic Law, which can only condemn, and the Spirit that gives life. This does not say that the written word of God kills!
In regards to John 6, read the entire passage. Yeshua was telling them that He is the bread of life, not like the manna in the wilderness or the many loaves He miraculously provided to these men. These men wanted the earthly bread, not the heavenly (Christ). They wanted to satisfy their flesh; they wanted more bread. But He says to them that the Spirit gives life, and the words He has spoken to them are life-giving. They were to believe the words He spoke that He is the bread of life; if they had believed this, they would have had life.
We do not have to get more words. The words He spoke are written for us in the Bible. It is the Spirit who applies those words to our spirit.
You said, [It is the written Word together with the Holy Spirit who illuminates the words, received and absorbed into our spirit and acted out in our lives that truly give life.] No, it is the Holy Spirit who convicts of sin and regenerates and gives eternal life. Then, and only then, does this new life manifest itself. It is not the acting out of the words that give us life; rather, it is the life that is given that is manifested by acting on the written word of God.
Dear berlorac First of all, thank you for this:
//I pray that you will be “filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, to walk worthily of the Lord unto all pleasing, bearing fruit in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God.”//
AMEN!
There is a tendency when debating a subject to focus on the things in which we disagree. I think we have both been guilty of this. I didn’t really take on board this quote at first because I was so intent on explaining why you were mistaken on something else!
But notice that Paul says, “In all SPIRITUAL wisdom and understanding” – in order that our walk with Him may be worthy.
Mere intellectual understanding of the Bible is not enough, as you admit. Otherwise Saul of Tarsus would have been the holiest and most Godly of men because, his life as a Pharisee involved constant study of the written Word. It is this “Dead letter” in the use of Scripture that I dread, partly because of having been trained this way as a young Christian.
…You said, “We do not have to get more words. The words He spoke are written for us in the Bible. It is the Spirit who applies those words to our spirit.”
Of course! Do you really think I was denying that???!!!
As far as words alone go, of course the Bible is enough, nothing need be added (although much COULD have been added, according to John 21:25). But that doesn’t mean the Holy Spirit can’t take up the truth of scripture and apply them to our hearts using different words.
Don’t preachers and Bible teachers often explain the sense and meaning of scripture in other words, not the exact words of the Bible? That isn’t wrong, is it?
I see true prophecy as being like this, but with the power and precision that most preaching lacks.
The Bible contains all we need of words, then the Spirit unpacks and applies the scriptures, and scriptural principles, to a specific need or situation. As in 1 Cor 14 (Compare Hebrews 4:12) :
“23 If, therefore, the whole church assembles and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all,
25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.”
Does that make sense?
That is the curse of the flood of “Charismania” and false deceivers spewing false prophecies. Micaiah when brought before king Ahab had the same problem (1Kings 22). There were 400 false prophets saying one thing, and he alone saw what God was REALLY saying.
Like criminals flooding the market with counterfeit banknotes, not only is the genuine overwhelmed, but those who see the counterfeit cease to trust the true.
Hello Jeanette,
Earlier, you said, [I have learned, whenever it seems the Lord is saying something – especially on a personal level – to make sure it is confirmed in scripture. Otherwise I would have to assume it’s just my own foolish thoughts and impressions.]
You also said, [I was pondering on the fact that this gift doesn’t make you a better Christian, when the Lord popped the thoughts into my mind, “You know all that. Now if *I* want you to speak in tongues are you willing?”]
You *think* the Lord popped those thoughts into your mind, but when I check the modern-day use of tongues against Paul’s writing on the subject, it is clear that the Lord did not put those thoughts in your mind. We often attribute words in our minds as “God speaking to us.”
When we study the Scriptures, He teaches us the meaning of the Scriptures, and then He transforms us with these Scriptures; that is, He applies these Scriptures to our minds and hearts. We agree on this, I’m sure. But when you say that God pops thoughts into your mind that are a “conversation with God,” this is where we depart.
Jeanette, the use of tongues was to speak the word of God to people of other languages. This was necessary until the New Testament was written. Of course, this gift was also a sign that the person was saved. This gave authenticity to the words he was speaking. Because the NT hadn’t yet been written, the only way one could prove he was speaking the word of God was to prove he was saved; thus, the sign gift of tongues.
Now, we have the NT and we can check anyone’s teaching against the written word. We don’t need tongues for a sign.
@ Jeanette Perry. There is a danger that you may be listening to the wrong spirit. I’m talking from experience. I was raised in a Pentecostal family. When I was a little boy we had many gatherings in our house, because my father was a group leader. I’m not saying that you are not saved because you are a pentcostal. But there is a danger that you may be listening to the wrong spirit, if you rely on feelings, emotions, and follow others, and see what they do. Satan can deceive you in these things. That is why we only have to rely on scripture alone. SOLA SCRIPTURA.
Please read my previous comment where the Bible says in 1 Cor. 14:22 So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.
Jeanette Parry. It is also wrong to say that if you speak in tongues is a sign that you are saved, did your spirit tell you that. You are definitely not listening to the right spirit. If you believe that, than you don’t understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Sorry to sound harsh, sometimes truth need to be told, and that is loving. It is not loving to see someone go on the wrong road. And not warn that person.
“I have heard genuine interpretations of tongues, and one that was not genuine”
Someone in the local Pentecostal church I used to attend gave an utterance in tongues that was obviously meant for interpretation. We waited but there was nothing. After a pause the meeting continued. Then a young man prayed earnestly for the children in the church and it was obvious (don’t ask me how) that THIS was the interpretation.
The false interpretation was in another meeting in the same church. Again someone gave an utterance for interpretation. I had no interpretation but it was obviously (again, don’t ask me how) a strong and challenging word for the church.
After a short pause a visiting lady who was obviously of the “WOF” persuasion gave what she obviously intended as the interpretation – flowery “God loves you, God thinks you are wonderful. God has a great plan for your life” kind of nonsense.
It was clearly wrong, although no doubt some people thought it was wonderful. Even the pastor said nothing to correct it.
I prayed desperately for the interpretation, but it was a s if the Lord shrugged His shoulders an said (there were no actual words but His meaning was clear), “Forget it. They won’t listen now.”
Reminds me of Isaiah 30:
‘9 For they are a rebellious people, lying sons, sons who will not hear the instruction of the LORD;
10 who say to the seers, “See not”; and to the prophets, “Prophesy not to us what is right; speak to us smooth things, prophesy illusions,
11 leave the way, turn aside from the path, let us hear no more of the Holy One of Israel.” ‘
Jeannette Perry,
Thank you for trying to educate the masses of people the truth regarding the Baptism of The Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.
With all the chaos, evil, etc. in the Charismatic church today it is understandable how people cannot grasp the true word of God regarding this precious gift apart from their sincere seeking of God on this matter.
Let it be known! Their is a huge difference between the Charismatic Witchcraft of today and the True Baptism of The Holy Spirit in the Classical Pentecostal teachings.
Thank you for your message, Jane, but must admit that I can’t fully agree with you.
Tongues – even when genuine – are NOT evidence of being filled with the Spirit.
For example, I once met a young woman who spoke in tongues (It sounded completely genuine, although I maybe didn’t have all that much discernment then). But as we chatted and prayed together it became obvious that she wasn’t even born again. Furthermore she knew it!!!
She did admire and love Jesus, as far as she could understand, but didn’t truly KNOW Him personally yet.
And I have met a number of Christians who are obviously FAR more filled with the Spirit than I am, yet do not have the gift of tongues.
Also, I was not trying to “Educate the masses”. At least I hope I have not been guilty of such presumption, and that my messages didn’t come across as that.
I have been pleading and reasoning with a brother in Christ who has rightly rejected the counterfeit that he cannot accept that the genuine exists. That is all.
I don’t mean to seem ungracious, but…
The last bit should read, “…a brother in Christ who has rightly rejected the counterfeit, but to such an extent that he cannot accept that the genuine exists…”
Jeannette
Really appreciat your comments, your explanations…
Yes…
“It is the written Word together with the Holy Spirit
who illuminates the words,
received and absorbed into our spirit
and acted out in our lives that truly give life.”
John 6:45 KJV
It is written in the prophets,
And they shall be ALL taught of God.
John 14:26 KJV
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,
whom the Father will send in my name,
he shall teach you ALL things…
Deuteronomy 4:36 KJV
Out of heaven he made thee to *hear His voice,*
that *He might instruct thee:*
1 John 2:20 KJV
Ye have an unction from the Holy One,
and ye *know all things.
*know = perceive, discern, discover.
1 John 2:26-27 KJV
These things have I written unto you
concerning them that seduce you.
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you,
and **ye need not that any man teach you:**
but as the same anointing teacheth you of ALL things,
and is truth, and is no lie…
Psalms 32:8 KJV
I will **instruct thee and **teach thee
in the way which thou shalt go:
I will **guide thee with mine eye.
*Instruct – 07919 sakal {saw-kal’}
KJV – understand 12, wise 12, prosper 8, understanding 5,
instruct 3, prudent 2, skill 2, teach 2, 63
Strongs – to be circumspect, inteligent,
have understanding, prosper, teach, instruct.
*Teach – 03384 yarah {yaw-raw’} or yara’ {yaw-raw’}
KJV – teach 42, shoot 18, archers 5, cast 5, teacher 4,
direct 1, inform 1, instructed 1, shewed 1, 84
Strongs – to point out, show, to direct, teach, instruct
*Guide – 03289 ya`ats {yaw-ats’}
KJV – counsel 25, counsellor 22, consult 9, give 7,
purposed 5, advice 2, advise 2; 80
Strongs – to advise, consult, give counsel, counsel, devise, guide.
———-
Yes…
“It is the written Word together with the Holy Spirit…
berolac, you said, //You *think* the Lord popped those thoughts into your mind, but when I check the modern-day use of tongues against Paul’s writing on the subject, it is clear that the Lord did not put those thoughts in your mind. We often attribute words in our minds as “God speaking to us.”//
Brother, your logic is faulty, as well as being based on what I believe is a misinterpretation of scripture.
I forget the name of this kind of fallacy, but you are starting from an assumption. That’s fine if the assumption is true, but leads to totally the wrong conclusion if the assumption is wrong.
The fallacy goes like this:
a) The gift of tongues is not for today.
b) Someone claims to have this gift.
c) Therefore they are deceived.
If a) is correct there is no problem. But what if it is not?
Then there is the connected fallacy (again I can’t remember the name of it):
a) The Canon of scripture is closed.
b) Therefore God never speaks to anyone directly today.
c) If anyone claims that God speaks to them personally they are deceived and are attempting to add to scripture.
In this case, a) is actually correct.
But even though a) is correct, b) doesn’t necessarily follow from it. Which means that c) is not always true either.
The idea that genuine tongues and prophecy are not for today mainly seems to involve taking completely out of context a few verses of 1 Corinthians 13, bolstered by a limited view of what exactly these gifts were and how they are supposed to operate.
Yes, the canon of scripture is complete, and helps in testing prophecy. If it seems in accord with both the Spirit and the words of the Bible it is probably of God. If it changes or adds to scripture it is not. And if it involves foretelling (as Agabus did in Acts) and does not come to pass it is not. Also, if it SEEMS to be correct but draws people into idolatry it is not. (Some of these guidelines are, of course, in Deuteronomy 18).
So far we have managed to disagree respectfully. But it is difficult to have a meaningful dialogue with someone who is convinced that anyone who claims that God speaks to us today is deceived! Since I was converted through Him speaking directly in this way – He asked me to choose who was the most important in my life – it must follow (by your reasoning) that I am therefore not a true Christian.
So you are not only trying to throw doubt on my relationship with God but are implying (though I don’t think for a moment that you mean to) that I was never a Christian in the first place!
What would you say about this? Just a few hours after my conversion I suddenly realised that it was possible to call God, “Father!”
Nobody else told me this, and I didn’t know the Bible well enough to have read Romans 8:15 and Galatians 4:6, yet I KNEW.
Do you claim that this was a lie because I didn’t get it directly from scripture?
I am not insulted, because you mean to help not to accuse. But can’t you see what you are doing? In trying to defend your particular understanding of the Word of God you are actually opposing it, and defaming many of your fellow believers. We are not all raving “Charismaniacs” as you seem to suppose!
Jeannette, I’m not calling your salvation into question. What I’m getting at is whether “God speaks” today other than through the direct application of His written word.
If you were saved by “hearing a voice” that directly led you to Christ as Savior, I can say that I was saved the same way, having no previous knowledge of the Bible or the Cross or anything even “religious.” So, I get that. What is pertinent in this situation is that it was not in a different tongue. There was no “sign.” Rather, it was the Holy Spirit stopping me short (in the middle of my sin) and I had the “sense” that the Lord said, “Trust Me.” I cannot say that the Lord actually “spoke” to me, but that the Spirit applied the written Word to my spirit, that I was in sin and that He was calling me to trust Him instead of myself (Ephesians 5:26).
I will say that my salvation experience made it a lot easier for me to walk into a Pentecostal church. But in the 20 years since He saved me, I’ve learned that my mind is transformed by reading His word. I know how He speaks in His word, so it’s relatively easy to know whether my thoughts are “of Him” or of myself. But even when they’re of Him, it’s not Him “speaking,” it is the Spirit applying the written word.
A salvation experience of the Spirit convicting is not the same as speaking in tongues. Tongues was for a sign to other people and it involved speaking a foreign language. We don’t need tongues to be able to apply the written word to our lives. We have the written word that the Spirit uses to convict of sin and of righteousness and of judgment.
Thank you A. Amos Love, for your comments.
But I think it’s time to stop banging our heads against a brick wall. I’m worn out!
Tongues were a sign as to the legitimacy of the bride, it was intended for foreigners to witness the power of God being poured on the apostles, these were signs that seperated Christians from other religious sects, God was affirming His own, as handkerchiefs and the shadow of the apostles brought miracles, tongues were a sign. I have yet to see or hear anyone speak in tongues………. Which were a known language, not the gibberish cults expound. We must see the purpose for tongues during Acts.
Yup, Manny, tongues were for a sign. God was building His Church and it began in Jerusalem, among Jews only, Jews who seek signs. And, to show that Paul — who came along later — was a legitimate Apostle, he also had all the sign gifts. His converts had sign gifts as well — again, to show that what God had done among the Jews, He was also doing among Paul’s Gentiles.
But once the foundation was laid in those first few decades post-Cross, and the epistles were written, there was no longer a need for such signs, particularly because the Age of Israel was passing off the scene, to be finally ended in AD 70.
What concerns me most is that it was not until the last century or so that tongues was “rediscovered.” To me, it’s a confirmation that we are in the last days, days in which people will especially be deceived. We know the Antichrist will come with signs and wonders. Those who seek after these signs and wonders now will be very susceptible to deception, especially as it continues to escalate until the Antichrist himself comes on the scene.
Amen B, that’s one characteristic of the antichrist, he will perform signs and wonders, those who are primed for this will be deceived. As you point out, curious how this movement has grown and spread from small cultic churches to full blown denominations.
What concerns me is that some ardent Cessationists come perilously near the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Of course, the whole question is cruelly complicated, because many miracles and other manifestations ARE demonic, and are almost invariably connected with gross error of other kinds (doctrinal, moral etc).
Read my comment above about logical fallacies and the shaky grounds for the assumptions that these gifts ceased (for which there is no evidence) or that God INTENDED them to cease, (for which there is also no evidence).
Perhaps genuine spiritual gifts of all kinds died down or “Went underground”, or were withdrawn by the Lord Himself, because of the increase in apostasy after the time of the Apostles. Especially when the RCC began to dominate.
The last I think is the most likely. But I doubt if the gifts totally ceased. The Lord always keeps for Himself a faithful remnant who have “Not bowed the knee to Baal”.
Spiritual gifts were probably in operation during true revivals but were not made too much of – or even discouraged. But I don’t know enough of church history to be sure of that.
Jeannette, I haven’t presented much in the way of Biblical exegesis, as I was trying to relate to what you’ve been saying on a personal level. I did lay out what was happening in Acts 2 and 1 Corinthians 14, but I know you disagree, at least to some extent. But it is imperative that I also show you, from a study of the Greek text, what Paul says about the cessation of the sign gifts.
1 Corinthians 13:8-13 is a proof of cessationism. In this chapter about love and the continuation of love, Paul contrasts that with the cessation of prophecies, tongues, and words of knowledge.
v. 8 — prophecies shall be done away (katargeo), there is a definite end; tongues shall cease (pauo), they will gradually end on their own; words of knowledge shall be done away (katargeo), there is a definite end.
v. 9 — “know” is present tense; therefore, “we are now knowing in part and we are now prophesying in part.” Revelation from God at this point (AD 57) is only partial; Paul would not write his prison epistles, for example, until AD 62 and 63.
v. 10 — “that which is perfect” is neuter, so it cannot refer to Christ at His Second Coming; rather, it refers to the written Word. Remember, Paul is talking about prophecy and words of knowledge, not people. Once the Word of God was complete, in written form, there would be no longer any need for prophecy, tongues, or words of knowledge, gifts that were given temporarily for the guidance of the Church until the written Word was complete.
v. 11 — Paul explains verse 10, in that prophecy and words of knowledge were for the infancy of the Church, but once the Church was fully established on the written Word, those prophecies and words of knowledge were no longer needed and would cease.
v. 12 — At the time (AD 57), all believers saw only partially, as in a dark looking-glass, but when the written Word was complete, we would see as if face to face, no longer in a dark mirror. Don’t add something to this verse that is not there. Many are apt to think it says, “when we see *Him* face to face,” but it does not say that. It says, “For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face; now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I have been known.”
v. 13 — The contrast is that faith, hope, and love continue, even as prophecies, tongues, and words of knowledge ceased in the first century. Faith and hope continue until the Second Coming, but love abides forever.
My comment won’t resolve anything in this discussion, but I did want to add this: During the great awakenings (revivals), there are recorded spontaneous appearances of signs and wonders, as well as speaking in tongues. To complicate matters, counterfeits are identified occurring alongside what is deemed true. “Speaking in tongues” is not confined to Pentecostals/charismatics; this also occurs among those who practice Eastern mystical practices, etc. Of course, visions and prophecies occur in many faiths (Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses). To accept any manifestation as coming from God, it must be tested strictly according to biblical requirements. It seems Jeannette and I would agree on this.
The current popularity of the teachings and practices in the visible church for expecting to “hear God” (I call it “God on demand”) has greatly influenced and exposed Christians to great deception. Having come out of a Pentecostal background and seeing the lack of discernment or of proper exegesis of Scripture (as well as the blatant occult practices from Bethel, et al.), I am EXTREMELY skeptical of any claims of current signs and wonders or gifts of the Holy Spirit. I no longer casually say things like “this morning, God impressed me to…” because I don’t want my own imaginings to be attributed to God, making Him a liar with my careless talk.
Having said all that, I can’t say I’m a cessationist either because I do not see that plainly in Scripture and I believe God is sovereign. I do appreciate the serious and respectful tone of this discussion.
Jeannette
Seems to me the Bible is correct, accurate.
Knew a guy, we were working together at a mission…
Giving out food, and feeding on the streets, vacant lots…
Preaching **His Word.** And praying for folks…
We were loading a truck and got to talking about praying for the sick.
He said, “I’m a “Cessationist.”
I said, “me too.” He quickly said, “NO you’re NOT.”
I wised cracked back,
“Yes I am, I love to **see** Jesus do “sensational” things.
He said, “No, no, Cessationist.” “I believe the gifts have ceased.”
“Signs and miracles are NOT for today.”
I said, “You never see signs, miracles, or wonders?”
He said, “NO.”
I said, “Oh, Wow, how boring…”
“But… That proves the Bible is correct.”
He said, with face scrunched up, ”What do you mean?”
I answered,
“I believe… You do NOT believe…
“I believe Jesus confims His Word with **Signs Following.**”
“And I get to **See**”
“Signs, miracles, all the time…”
“You do NOT believe…”
You do NOT believe Jesus confims His Word with **Signs Following.**”
“And you get to **See**”
“Nothing…”
“According to your faith.” “You have what you believe.”
———-
Mark 16:17-20 KJV
And these **signs** (miracles)
shall follow them that **Believe;**
In my name shall they cast out devils;
they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents;
and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them;
they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, (**His Disciples**)
he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
And they (**His Disciples**) went forth, and preached every where,
the Lord working with them,
and confirming the word with **signs** (miracles) following. Amen.
———–
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
**THEIR shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Jeannette
Yes – When you believe…
Jesus, today, speaks to WE, His Sheep, His Disciples, His Servants…
His Ekklesia, His Church, His Body, His Ambassadors, His sons…
If Jesus could speak everything into existance…
Speaking to WE, His Kids, is easy.
John 10:27
My sheep **Hear MY Voice,**
and I know them, and they follow me:
John 18:37
To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world,
that I should bear witness unto the truth.
**Every one** that is of the truth **Heareth MY Voice.**
Matthew 11:15
He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Deuteronomy 4:36
Out of heaven He made thee to **Hear His Voice,**
that He might instruct thee.
Genesis 3:8
And they **heard the voice of the LORD God**
walking in the garden…
Genesis 22:18
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; (Abraham)
because thou hast **Obeyed MY Voice.**
Exodus 15:26
And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken
**to The Voice of the LORD thy God.**
Exodus 19:5
Now therefore, if ye will **Obey MY Voice** indeed,
and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure
unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Psalm 95:7
For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture,
and the sheep of his hand.
Today if ye will **Hear His Voice** harden not your heart.
John 10:3
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep **Hear His Voice**
and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them,
and the sheep follow him: for **They know His Voice.**
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him:
for they know not the voice of strangers.
Luke 6:46
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which **I say?**
Revelations 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock:
if any man **Hear MY Voice,** and open the door,
I will come into him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall **Hear MY Voice;**
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
OT references — God speaking to Moses, God speaking to Israel. And then, 400 years of silence after Malachi… Until — the Messiah comes to Israel. He speaks to them.
The NT references you make in Luke and John are when the Messiah is physically on earth preaching to the Jews. Then He ascends back to Heaven and His chosen writers begin to write the words that He would have them write. That is His voice for us today. It is written. The Holy Spirit applies it to those He regenerates.
God communes with Adam, the spoken word. Adam disobeys and communication ceases as Adam is removed from the Garden. Then, hundreds of years of virtual silence until God speaks to Noah. How could all those billions of people have knowledge of God during those hundreds of years? Through oral tradition passed down from Seth on, understood by only those who had faith to hear. And communication through the Creation, His handiwork (Psalm 19:1-4, 33:6-9; Romans 10:15-18).
After the Flood, silence until God speaks to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob — Israel — to whom He gives special place. But even to Israel, He speaks through His chosen Prophets and Priests. And sometimes, He doesn’t speak directly, but sends Gabriel instead.
To the Gentiles, silence to all but a few throughout OT times.
Then, the Messiah comes to His own with signs and miracles. Why? Because Israel has always sought signs due to a lack of faith.
The Body of Christ is not Israel. And Paul, our Apostle, does not tell us that we will have conversations with God in which He speaks to us, not after the sign gifts (all verbal) of prophecy, tongues, and words of knowledge ceased in the first century. We have His final and complete Word written for us.
He sent the Holy Spirit to teach us what His written Word means; the Spirit applies that written Word to our spirit and mind and conscience. If we are in the Word, if we saturate ourselves in His Word, we come to have the mind of Christ and we need no other words. In fact, we will never in this lifetime exhaust the knowledge and guidance given us in the written Word. Be in the Word daily and hear His voice; it is enough, it is more than enough. It is overflowing!
Just to be clear, I never said that miracles have ceased. Indeed, it is a miracle every time the Holy Spirit regenerates someone who is dead in sins. I could never say, and couldn’t even WANT to say that the Holy Spirit is somehow inoperative.
What I have consistently said is that, as a cessasionist, I follow Paul’s teaching that the 3 sign gifts — prophecy, tongues, words of knowledge — have ceased.
As to the Mark 16 reference that Amos makes above: different group of people (Jews only) and different dispensation (Age of Israel).
Anyone can argue with an “experience” or an opinion. As for me, I will argue with Scripture as I did above, showing from 1 Corinthians 13:8-13, that the 3 sign gifts have ceased.
Berlorac, I understand your use of 1 Cor. 13:8-13 in support of the cessation of sign gifts. I’m not saying you are wrong, but I have never understood that passage to be clear about a specific time the sign gifts would cease. I personally do not seek such gifts, nor do I believe that Scripture is insufficient. In fact, my “experience” and opinion drive me away from accepting the sign gifts because of the outright abuses I have seen.
Maggie
The gifts of prophecy, knowledge and tongues are contrasted with faith, hope and love. Faith, hope and love remain after prophecy, knowledge and tongues are done away with by the coming of that which is perfect. So that’s 3 of 6 done away with when the perfect comes, but when the Lord returns 5 of 6 will have been done away with and only love last forever. “The perfect” must be other than the Lord’s return and refers to a maturing or completeness. I like berlorac take it to mean the completed body of revelation (the Canon). Here is my reasoning.
13:8— Love never ends but the gifts of prophecy, knowledge and tongues will be rendered inoperative. Two of the three are turned off externally; the third one, tongues, dies out in and of itself. The implication would be that tongues will cease before the other two.
13:9-10—that which (not He who) is perfect is going to cut off the gifts of prophecy and knowledge. The word for “perfect” is the word for complete, it’s talking about something that is mature or full that does away with the partial.
13: 11— Paul compares moving from the partial to the perfect as maturing from childhood to adulthood. He does this in1Co 2:6-3:3 also talking about moving from a time when one is unspiritual to the point where they spiritual.
13:12—Paul switches metaphors to contrast the results of the partial and the perfect as seeing face to face and seeing in a mirror dimly.
13:13—faith, hope and love, remain after the perfect comes. Faith will not continue when we are face to face with the Lord, we will not need faith (2Co 5:6-8, Heb 11:1). Hope will not remain when we are face to face with the Lord because hope that is seen is not hope (Rom8:24). Love will remain forever.
Whatever other people’s experience is with what they call tongues or prophecy or manifestations I don’t need it to be equipped for every good work (2 Tim 3:16-17). I believe the perfect, the mature has come and it’s the canon of scripture.
I hope I did not intrude on the discussion.
Hey RS, good to see you… I didn’t take your comment as intrusion, especially since you agreed with me. Ha!
Hey Maggie, the key is verse is 1 Corinthians 13:10. I used to think this (and verse 12) referred the Second Coming, so that it would say that these sign gifts would be cut off only when Christ returns; in other words, when the Church was complete or “perfect,” “when that which is perfect is come.”
But having studied the Greek, and keeping the whole passage in context, “that which is perfect” cannot be Christ. Paul is talking about prophecy, tongues, and words of knowledge (1 Corinthians 12:8), not people; hence, the neuter.
Now, as to “perfect,” it means “complete.” Again, I used to think he meant the Church, at the Second Coming, but because of the neuter, that doesn’t work. Also, this verse wouldn’t make sense: “When that which is complete has come, that which is in portion shall be done away (katargeo, cut off, put out of business, ceased).” This can’t be the Church (or Christ) because that would say that when the Church (or Christ) is complete, it (He) will cease, be cut off, or put out of business.
Remember, these three sign gifts were all for the purpose of speaking the word of God prior to the NT being written. Whenever we see the legitimate use of tongues, it is always in the context of teaching in the assembly. Now, we have the complete written Word, so the spoken Word that was in part is now cut off.
BTW, I didn’t even have you in mind when I spoke of experience and opinion. I was referring to Jeannette and Amos, for whom I pray.
Rascott and Berlorac, thank you for your responses.
I expect that my opinion and experience do color some of my understanding of Scripture, whether I want it to or not. I’m hoping to be learning to use biblical Greek in the future, which should help me in my personal study.
Maggie, even apart from the Greek, if we keep the passage in context, then we can see what’s happening.
The RECEPTION of tongues was for a sign; the EMPLOYMENT of tongues was for the speaking forth of the Word in the context of teaching, particularly in the assembly.
With this in mind (that these 3 “word” gifts are for teaching), look at what Paul says — that they were only “in part” or “incomplete,” but when the complete would come, the incomplete would cease to be active. If the incomplete concerns the word of God, then the complete concerns the word of God.
BTW, our experiences color the understanding of all of us, but that’s why it’s imperative to study the Word — and then study some more.
Maggie
We all have opinion and experience that color our understanding of Scripture. I did not mean to imply that experience has no role in our spiritual life or that sharing our opinions and experience cannot be edifying because I think it can be. I was specifically referring to experiences people claim to be revelation (outside of scripture) concerning doctrine and ecstatic experiences relating to languages which are not languages. Those I don’t need but most definitely need connection to other believers such as yourself.
Totally agree, the Holy Spirit is at work today as you see Him convicting the world of sin and seperaing the “church” from the bride, as for tongues and prophecy they have ceased, the church was manifested and approved through prophecy, signs and miracles, tongues verified the authenticity, then scripture was written for those that would come later down the ages, while the Holy Spirit worked to cultivate, prune and plant believers, this will go on till our Lord Jesus returns. So yes certain authenticating gifts have ceased, but the gift of the Holy Spirit still continues as the helper Jesus promised, His ministry is alive.
berlorac – Was wondering…
Why do you continue to say…
“…the sign gifts (all verbal) of
prophecy, tongues, and words of knowledge ceased…”
———-
The Bible does NOT say…
“…prophecy, tongues, and words of knowledge ceased…”
Someone has added that…
———-
1 Cor 13:8-9 KJV
8 Charity never faileth:
but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;
whether there be tongues, they shall cease;
whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1 Cor 13:8-9 ESV
8 Love never ends.
As for prophecies, they will pass away;
as for tongues, they will cease;
as for knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
1 Cor 13:8-9 NIV
*Love never fails.
But where there are prophecies, they will cease;
where there are tongues, they will be stilled;
where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
———-
prophecies, – they shall fail – they will pass away – they will cease
sometime in the future…
tongues, – they shall cease – they will cease – they will be stilled
sometime in the future…
knowledge, – it shall vanish away – it will pass away – it will pass away
sometime in the future…
———-
I can NOT find a version that says – “words of knowledge ceased”
I can NOT find a version that says – “words of knowledge” in 1 Cor 13.
“words of knowledge” is NOT in 1 Cor 13
It’s just “knowledge,” “gnosis.”
And, as far as I can tell, “knowledge,” “gnosis,” is still around. 🙂
So, if “knowledge,” has NOT yet vanished away…
Isn’t it possible, prophecies, and tongues, have NOT ceased yet either?
Word of knowledge, a gift specified in 1 Corinthians 12:8.
berlorac
Yes…
Word of knowledge…
“a gift specified in 1 Corinthians 12:8.”
But, “Word of knowledge” is NOT in, 1 Cor 13:8…
The verse you quoted…
Now, someone must have taught you that…
The gift, “Word of knowledge” is ceased…
Because, scripture does NOT say that.
1 Cor 13:8 KJV
8 Charity never faileth:
but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;
whether there be tongues, they shall cease;
whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Scripture says, “knowledge,” “Gnosis.” shall vanish away.
Amos, I’ll go along with you. Let’s just call it “knowledge” in v. 13. The context of chapters 12-14 is gifts of the Spirit all of which were/are for the profit and edification of the Church. Three of these gifts would cease.
Now, if knowledge is just knowledge, what knowledge is there that is needed for the edifying of the Body? How to replace a timing belt? How to rig a hoist? How to stuff a turkey? We know the only true knowledge is spiritual and the only knowledge needed for the building up of the Body is spiritual truth. See Paul’s use of knowledge in the context of spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 14:6, for example. It is here lumped in with revelation, prophesying, and teaching. There is no new revelation, prophecies have ceased, we teach the Word of God as written for the edifying of the Church. And there is no new knowledge. Everything we need to know is written in the Bible.
berlorac
Sounds like you do NOT believe…
You can **Hear His Voice** today. 🙁
You write @ February 22, 2017 at 12:45 pm #…
“… in Luke and John are when the Messiah
is physically on earth preaching to the Jews.”
Well, here, in Hebrews, Jesus is NO longer
“the Messiah is physically on earth preaching to the Jews.”
And the writer of Hebrews quotes 3 times from the OT.
To day if ye will **Hear His Voice,** harden not your hearts.
Heb 3:7-8 KJV
Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith,
To day if ye will **Hear His Voice,**
Harden NOT your hearts, as in the provocation,
in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:15 KJV
While it is said, To day if ye will **Hear His Voice,**
harden NOT your hearts, as in the provocation.
Heb 4:7 KJV
Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David,
To day, after so long a time; as it is said,
To day if ye will **Hear His Voice,** harden not your hearts.
———-
And, I’m-a-thinkn, the OT is important to us today. Yes?
But… You seem to be trying your hardest…
To cancell out what was written in the OT
By saying God is NOT speaking to WE, His Sheep, Today.
“God speaking to Moses, God speaking to Israel.
And then, 400 years of silence…”
But… Paul… says…
Rom 15:4 KJV
For whatsoever things were written aforetime
were written for **our learning,** that we through patience
and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
God speaking to folks, and written aforetime….
Was written for **our learning.** Yes?
So, I have hope, He, Jesus, can speak to **His Disciples** today.
How is it we ‘hear His voice’? This isn’t referencing to an ‘audible’ voice, it is referencing to hearing the word of God internally. Many hear God’s word, but it doesn’t sink in. They haven’t ears to hear; God must open the understanding to comprehend the truths found in His word – that is what ‘hearing His voice’ signifies. From Luke 24:45, “Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures”
The WOF charismatics fail to take statements like ‘hear his voice’ in the proper context, and to interpret scripture with scripture. The canon is closed, God speaks to His elect through His word as the Spirit teaches us all truth.
Dear friends,
– Especially berlorac, who has tried so earnestly to show me what he believes is the truth.
This will probably be my last comment here, and I have turned off notifications. If anyone does want to contact me privately (there seems to be no way to do so on this site) I give permission. Facebook might be best. Check the spelling of my name ) 2 n’s and 2 t’s) and look for the icon of a shorn sheep!
This site contains so many good and helpful articles, which is why I came in the first place.
Thankfully I was never fully involved in the NAR-type craziness, just on the edges of it for a time, while gradually learning discernment between that which was of God and that which was not. I have also been under a wide variety of good (and some not so good) teaching over the years, which has also helped in discerning how to rightly interpret the Word and detect false teachers.
But I can understand where some of you are coming from. It is like a young person who, after being seduced by someone who seemed genuine, has known nothing in their life but abusive relationships. Eventually they are so broken and damaged that they are unable to trust anyone or accept that ANY faithful, loving and joyful relationship is even possible.
Without a miracle of healing the effects of abuse (spiritual and otherwise) go on and on, even if the victim appears to have got their life back together and found a measure of restoration.
It is understandable that you want at all costs to protect yourself and/or others against further hurt and deception. But the true cost is often a rejection of the genuine love and gifts the Father longs to bestow. So the Enemy has won after all!
As Jesus said:
“9 And I tell you, Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
10 For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
11 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent;
12 or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?
13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
14 ¶ Now he was casting out a demon that was dumb; when the demon had gone out, the dumb man spoke, and the people marveled.
15 But some of them said, “He casts out demons by Beelzebul, the prince of demons”;”
For those who have been given only stones, serpents and scorpions of deception by the Enemy, what other conclusion can you come to, except that, these days, spiritual gifts are not from the Father after all?
Some go further and come perilously close to committing – or even do actually commit – the “Unforgivable sin” of claiming that even things that are indeed of the Holy Spirit, are demonic (1 Cor 14:1).
It is so heartbreaking.
1 Corinthians 13, and the beginning of chapter 14 says:
“7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 ¶ Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect;
10 but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.
13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
1 ¶ Make love your aim, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy…”
If you truly can’t see that this does NOT mean that the need for true spiritual gifts has ceased, then there is nothing more anyone can say.
I have tried to love you, hope for you and endure the hurtful comments, as 1 Corinthians 13:7 says, (not hurtful for my sake but for HIS), but the temptation to get angry and frustrated instead has become too much.
I hope this is not too long. Please read it carefully and prayerfully if you are able.
Goodbye and God bless you.
Jeannette, I hope you saw my earlier comment to you that I was not questioning your salvation. I was only asking whether you, even all of us, cannot be subject to hearing our own voice and mistake it for a directive from God.
Also, here are the gifts of the Spirit still in operation today: the word of wisdom, faith, discerning of spirits, ministry, teaching, exhortation, giving, leadership, mercy, and many others. The gifts to be able to heal and do miracles ended with Paul, as it is evident he was no longer healing people near the end of his life (AD 62-68). However, I believe that God can, and does, directly heal people and perform miracles. These are selective and not widespread as they were before the NT Scriptures were written.
The work of the Spirit is that He regenerates, He indwells the believer, He baptizes the believer into the Body of Christ, He teaches, He intercedes, He fills with power for ministering, He changes the believer from glory to glory, He produces godly fruit through the yielded believer, He enables praise and thanksgiving to the Father and Son, He bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and many more.
He also bestows all those gifts listed above, “But to each [believer] is given the manifestation of the Spirit to profit all [the assembly, or the Church]” (1 Corinthians 12:7). These manifestations (gifts) of the Spirit are never given to benefit ourselves alone.
I, for one, would like for you to stick around and not take any of this as a personal attack. It is better that we reprove with the Scriptures in love than to be found unfaithful to Him.
Jeannette,
I hope you see this comment. I have been thinking about the concern you mentioned of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Considering the many abuses and wrong teachings in the visible church, it is most important to test all things and we are exhorted to do so. I think the intent is what is key: If something is done out of rebellion to God, I would consider it sin. If we prayerfully and diligently search the Scriptures, what more can we do standing humbly before God when we make judgments about certain things, like the sign gifts? I don’t believe we are condemned and have committed the unforgiveable sin in trying to discern good from false.
Here is one thought I would like you to consider: There are many ways that believers are shut down from questioning church leaders and teachings, one being the misuse of “touch not God’s anointed.” I think “blaspheming the Holy Spirit” could also be used in that way. Anytime questioning is squelched, it speaks of a cultic mentality. Just wanted to give you some food for thought (and prayer).
Amy – berlorac
Yes – Scripture is sufficient for me.
Scripture informed me…
I, Amos, could, and was expected to…
“Desire Spiritual Gifts.”
I read Scripture, in 1 Cor 14:1 KJV, and 1 Cor 14:31 KJV, saying…
WE, His Sheep, His Disciples, His Ekklesia, His Called Out Ones…
Are to “Desire Spiritual Gifts.” And ALL may prophesy.
1 Cor 14:1 KJV
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts,
but rather that ye may prophesy.
———-
Now, according to some, it sounds like…
These verses, 1 Cor 14:1 KJV, 1 Cor 14:31 KJV…
Are now extinct, NO longer reliable…
And should be “Ignored.”
How many scriptures? Which scriptures?
Are WE, His Kings and Priests, His sons, to “Ignore.”
———-
And other sheep I have, which are NOT of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Amy – berlorac
Yes – Scripture is sufficient for me.
Scripture informed me…
I, Amos, could, and was expected to expect…
“Spiritual Gifts” given by the Spirit to me, everyman…
Scripture, Paul, specifies, in 1 Cor 12:7-11 KJV…
Nine, 9, “Spiritual Gifts” given by the Spirit to…
WE, His Ambassordors, His Servants, His Body…
dividing to every man severally as he, the Spiirt, will
1 Cor 12:7-11 KJV
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit
is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit **the word of wisdom;** (1)
to another **the word of knowledge** by the same Spirit; (2)
9 To another **faith** by the same Spirit; (3)
to another **the gifts of healing** by the same Spirit; (4)
10 To another **the working of miracles;** (5)
to another **prophecy;** (6)
to another **discerning of spirits;** (7)
to another **divers kinds of tongues;** (8)
to another **the interpretation of tongues:* (9)
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit,
dividing to every man severally as he will.
———-
Now, according to some, it sounds like…
These verses, 1 Cor 12:7-11 KJV…
Are now extinct, NO longer reliable…
And should be “Ignored.”
How many scriptures? Which scriptures?
Are WE, His Kings and Priests, His sons, to “Ignore.”
———-
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
**THEIR shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Amy
“…are the Bible verses you point to for signs and wonders
Descriptive or Prescriptive?”
I do NOT understand, or know how to answer, this question.
Can you explain a little more?
Why do you ask this question?
Amy
You write…
“If Scripture is sufficient,”
“then we do not look to dreams, visions, or voices, correct?”
NOPE – I’m seeing that a little different.
When Scripture is sufficient…
WE, His Ekklesia, His Called Out Ones, His Church, His Body…
Expect to, “dream dreams,” and “see visions,” and to “Hear His Voice.”
And expect sons and daughters “shall prophesy.”
Joel 2:28 KJV
And it shall come to pass afterward,
that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;
and your sons and your daughters “shall prophesy,”
your old men shall “dream dreams,”
your young men shall “see visions:”
Acts 2:16-17 KJV
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,
I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:
and your sons and your daughters “shall prophesy,”
and your young men shall “see visions,”
and your old men shall “dream dreams:”
———-
Now, according to some, it sounds like…
God is NOT pouring out His Spirit upon all flesh…
And these verses, Joel 2:28 KJV, Acts 2:16-17 KJV…
Are now extinct, NO longer reliable…
And should be “Ignored.”
How many more scriptures? Which scriptures?
Are WE, His Followers, His Kings and Priests, His sons, to “Ignore.”
———-
The Bible warns WE, His Kids, about…
Commandments of Men, Doctrines of Men, Traditions of Men…
Mark 7:13
NLT – you “cancel” the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition.
KJV – Making the word of God of “none effect” through your tradition…
ASV – Making “void” the word of God by your tradition…
NIV – Thus you “nullify” the word of God by your tradition…
Joel 2 prophecy for Israel, repeated by Peter in Acts 2 to Israelites only. The Age of Israel finally ended in AD 70. Meanwhile the Church Age began in AD 29. Overlapping dispensations. That’s why the Twelve went only to Jews with the Gospel of the Circumcision and Paul went to the Gentiles and Diaspora Jews with the Gospel of the Uncircumcision (Acts 15:1-19; Galatians 2:1-9).
berlorac
“Joel 2 prophecy for Israel, repeated by Peter in Acts 2 to Israelites only.”
Hmmm? – Where does scripture say, “Acts 2 to Israelites only?”
Are you saying, NONE of Acts 2, is for WE, His Disciples, His Sheep, today?
———-
This answer by Peter was to this question…
When His Disciples were speaking in tongues…
Acts 2:8 KJV
And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
But, NOT everyone present could hear in their own tongue.
Some thought these 120, speaking in tongues, were drunk.
Acts 2:13 KJV
Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
Maybe like today, when folks who can NOT understand…
Call, Praying in the Spirit, Singing in the Spirit, “babbling,” “gibberish.”
So, Peter refutes those who mock, who do NOT understand…
The tongues that **His Disciples** are now speaking…
By saying in verse 15, “For these are not drunken, as ye suppose,”
Then Peter quotes from Joel 2:28 KJV…
Referring to **His Disciples,** who were in the upper room…
The 120, who were ALL filled with the Holy Ghost,
and began to speak with other tongues,
as the Spirit gave them utterance.
berlorac
“Joel 2 prophecy for Israel, repeated by Peter in Acts 2 to Israelites only.”
Are these scriptures, in Acts 2, still, “to Israelites only?”
Acts 2:37-39 KJV
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart,
and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles,
Men and brethren, **what shall we do?**
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized
every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ
for the remission of sins,
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
A. Amos Love,
You asked, [Are these scriptures, in Acts 2, still, “to Israelites only?”]
Yes. Acts 2:5, Acts 2:14, Acts 2:22, Acts 2:36. And then, what were these Jews to do? Believe and be water baptized (Acts 8:36, Acts 10:47).
Contrariwise, Paul was not sent to baptize (1 Corinthians 1:17), although he did baptize a few. In any case, according to Paul, water baptism is not a part of receiving salvation.
Acts is descriptive and we can make some application from it, but it is not, in essence, doctrinal. The doctrine for the Body of Christ comes from Paul’s epistles.
Berlorac,
I should have figured this out earlier, but now I see your theology is dispensational. It helps for me to understand that.
Yes, Maggie, dispensational. Hebrews 1:2 “…through Whom He also appointed the ages.” Not worlds (kosmos), but ages (aioonas).
Good afternoon,
Mark 7:13 is Jesus speaking to the Pharisees about misusing the commands of God in order for them to observe their own tradition, it isn’t about negating “gifts.” You’ve taken the sentence out of context, Mark 7:13 has nothing to do with cessation of gifts, if anything it condemns legalism.
The Holy Spirit is still at work, He is the caretaker of the Bride of Christ, He is not a gift in the sense of authenticating the church today, He prunes, cultivates and plants…….He is convicting the world of sin. He is not “tongues, signs and wonders.” His ministry is alive, authenticated and in operation. He leads all in truth, conviction, prayer and guidance, He is “the helper” of the saints while we (the bride) awaits her master.
Yes, I am reminded of something Chafer said, that there is precedence for this even in the NT. We have the sign of the star in the heavens leading the kings from the east to Bethlehem at the birth of the Messiah, but after a while that star ceased to be. And then, we have the angels proclaiming His birth, but then this ceases. These were for signs for the first advent of Christ, but they ceased. Then, we have certain signs as part of the inauguration of the Church, but then they ceased.
One of the trademarks of the closing days of history will be signs and wonders, false teachers, massive apostasy finally culminating in the revealing of the antichrist, so many wanting to see and experience signs and wonders will be very surprised. The antichrist and the false prophet will perform signs and wonders.
That’s right B, one thing we all should remember is that God is never without a witness. All those signs, wonders and miracles from millennia ago were a sign to that generation, they ceased, the Holy Spirit is a sign, a seal and guarantee that the words proclaimed long ago in Scripture are alive today, He is the everlasting sign of the bride of Christ. He helps us in all, He guards us, He even prays for us with utterances we dont understand! Blessed be The Holy Spirit of God!
Addendum to above:
Neither the Sadducees nor the Pharisees could produce a tangible, verifiable miracle, yet the apostles could, the Pharisees were so worried about miracles being manifested by the apostles they feared the Romans would come and remove them because the crowds had messianic fever. The miracles showed the crowd who was really God approved. Yet so many, even after witnessing this verifiable miracles, did not believe! It goes to prove!
berlorac
You write @ February 23, 2017 at 12:17 pm #
“Joel 2 prophecy for Israel, repeated by Peter in Acts 2 to Israelites only.”
Well, I’m-a-thinkn… I, Amos, be an “Israelite.” 🙂
Aren’t you, berlorac, an ”Israelite?”
Aren’t you and me, WE, His Sheep, the seed of Abraham?
Isn’t Abraham our Father? By Faith in Christ?
If that’s true…
Then isn’t ALL of Acts 2, also for WE, His Sheep, His Disciples…
“Israelites,” NOT of the flesh?
But, Jews, ”Israelites,” **inwardly?** **In the spirit?**
Romans 4:9-10. Abraham was justified while in uncircumcision. He would later become the father of the circumcision. Gentile faith is analogous to Abraham’s faith prior to circumcision.
berlorac
“He would later become the father of the circumcision.”
Yes – **The purpose**
Abraham became **the Father of ALL who believe.**
Weather “circumcised” or “uncircumcised.”
Rom 4:11 ESV
He received the sign of circumcision
as a seal of the righteousness
that **he had by faith**
while he was still “uncircumcised.”
**The purpose**
was to make him **the father of ALL who believe**
without being circumcised,
so that righteousness would be counted to them as well,
berlorac
Seems Abraham, be the Father of the Israelites…
Zacharias, father of John, filled with the Holy Ghost..
Proclaimed, “our father Abraham.” Yes?
Luke 1:73 KJV
The oath which he sware to “our father Abraham,”
———-
And the promises to the “Israelites” were through Abraham…
And to thy seed, which is Christ….
Gal 3:16 KJV
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made.
He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one,
And to thy seed, which is Christ.
———-
Ga 3:29 KJV
And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed,
and heirs according to the promise.
So today, I, Amos, belong to Christ…
And, you, berlorac, belong to Christ…
Today, I am Abraham’s seed…
Today, you are Abraham’s seed…
WE, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, His Church, His Body…
Today, are Abraham’s seed… Yes?
———-
Seems, there are “Israelites,” NOT of the flesh… Yes?
Rom 9:6-8 KJV
6 …For they are NOT all Israel, which are of Israel:
7* Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham,
are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8* They which are **the children of the flesh,**
these are NOT the children of God:
but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
———-
Seems, there are Jews, “Israelites,” NOT of the flesh, outwardly. Yes?
And, there are Jews, “Israelites,” ** inwardly,** **in the spirit.** Yes?
Rom 2:28-29 KJV
For he is NOT a Jew, which is one outwardly…
But he is a Jew, which is one **inwardly;**
and circumcision is that of the heart, **in the spirit,**
and NOT in the letter; whose praise is NOT of men, but of God.
———-
So, If WE, His Disciples, His Sheep, His Servants…
Are Jews, “Israelites,” – **inwardly?** **In the spirit?**
Then ALL of Acts 2:16-17, is for me, and WE, His Kings and Priests… Yes?
WE, His Disciples, His sons, can “Desire Spiritual Gifts.”
And WE, His Kings and Priests, His Ambassordors, His servants…
Can expect to, “dream dreams,” “see visions,” and “Hear His Voice.”
The earthly seed, Israel, according to the flesh. But not all are Israel by faith. Only the Remnant are the true Israel. Gentiles are, likewise, saved by faith (like the true Israel), as exemplified by Abraham. Israel boasted in their Law and the oracles of God (Romans 2:17-3:8), but without faith, they were worse than the Gentiles who had no Law.
As to Acts 2 and Joel 2, Peter would be a false prophet if we take your continuationist position. These are the signs leading to that “great and terrible Day of the Lord,” beginning in great tribulation and culminating the return of the Lord in vengeance. “Blood, and fire, and vapor smoke; the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood…” This hasn’t happened yet. Something interrupted the timeline. What began with signs and miracles ceased before the cataclysm could begin. The Joel 2 prophecy from which Peter quotes has been put on hold.
Acts 15:13-19. God is now calling out His Church. James received revelation in AD 51 at the Jerusalem Council that God was doing something not previously foretold. But AFTER the calling out of the Church, God would once again build the tabernacle of David and the Israel program would continue and finally be completed.
A.Amos Love
Abraham is the father of many nations (Gen 17:5). Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are the fathers of Israel. Jacob was named Israel not Abraham. If one is not a descendant of those three fathers one is not an Israelite but a gentile. Being a son of Abraham does not make one Israel or a Jew.
Rom 2:28:29 and 9:6-8 do not incorporate gentiles into Israel: it is not expansion language but reduction language. Only Israelites who have believed in Jesus as Messiah (this is after He reveled Himself as Messiah) are “inwardly circumcised” and “children of God”. Believing Jews and believing gentiles do not make up “true Israel” but we are quickened, joined, raised and seated together with Christ as One New Man (the Body of Christ). The Books of Ephesians and Colossians explain these truths.
Scripture never equates the Church with Israel or the Remnant (which is the Israel of God). The Church was created at Pentecost (Jew first then gentiles) and Paul explains this mystery throughout his epistles. So sign gifts have ceased for the Church and Joel 2 is speaking of a future time so the “people” in Joel 2 are Israel.
The issue in Acts 2 is the offering of the Kingdom again to Israel as Jesus said would happen in Matt 22. The Kingdom will not come until Israel repents of their national sins and believes Jesus to be the Messiah (Lev 26:40-42, Jer 3:11-18, Zec 12:10 Hos 5:15, Matt 23:37-39). Peter and the other Apostles had no idea that almost 2000 years would pass and we would still be waiting for Israel to do so. The Church cannot bring in the Kingdom—Israel must!
Matt 23:39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”—The Church has been saying this for almost 2000 years still no Kingdom on earth! The Church’s mission is to preach the Gospel of Christ crucified for our sins to give the gift of everlasting life to those who believe. We await our gathering to Him in the clouds. We do not reign on earth as yet.
Also the olive tree of Romans 11 does not represent Israel; natural branches do. Wild branches represent gentiles. People are physically not spiritually born either natural branches or wild branches. The natural or wild does not change when remaining on or being grafted to the tree which represents the blessings coming from the root of the Covenant God made with Abraham. Gentile believers are fellow partakers with Jewish believers of these blessings by grace through faith.
rascott247
Thanks for the comprehensive reply.
You write @ February 25, 2017 at 6:41 am #
“Scripture never equates the Church with Israel…”
“The Church was created at Pentecost…”
———-
What about **The Church** in the wilderness?
Long before Pentecost?
Acts 7:38 KJV
This is he, that was in **the church** in the wilderness
with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina,
and with our fathers:
who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
And, isn’t, **The Church** in the wilderness?
Made up of, **Isrealites** in the wilderness?
Could this Scripture, Acts 7:38 KJV, be…
“Equating **the Church** with **Israel?**
Showing **the Church** existed before Pentecost?
———-
What about **The Church** in Mat 18:17 KJV?
That Jesus spoke about? While still alive?
Before Pentecost?
Mat 18:17 KJV
And if he shall neglect to hear them,
tell it unto **the church:**
but if he neglect to hear **the church,*
let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
———-
Can you quote some Scriptures where…
The Church was created at Pentecost?
Thanks for your reply as well A. Amos
The Church is the Body of Christ (Col 1:18) created in Him by reconciling Jew and gentile to God through the cross (Eph 2:14-18). We are placed in the Body by baptism of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12:13). Where there is no HS baptism there is no Body. HS baptism was future to Acts1:5. In Acts 11:15-17 Peter equates what happened to Cornelius (gentile) and his household and to what happened on Pentecost i.e. HS baptism.
Ekklēsia means assembly it does not always refer to the Body of Christ. The ekklēsia in the wilderness was not Jew and gentile united together and seated with Christ at the right hand of the Father. The ekklēsia in the wilderness were not baptized into the Body of Christ they were baptized into Moses (1Cor 10:2). Baptism means immersed implying identification with. There are many baptisms in scripture (most dry some wet).
In Matt 16:18 the Church is spoken of as future tense “will build”. In Matt 18 Jesus is training the Apostles who are the foundation of the Church (Eph 2:20).
See Acts 19:32, where the mob is also an ekklesia.
Great example B. Thanks.
rascott247
You write @ February 25, 2017 at 6:41 am #
“The Church was created at Pentecost (Jew first then gentiles)
and **Paul explains this mystery** throughout his epistles.
So sign gifts have ceased for the Church…”
Hmmm? Paul explains this mystery? Throughout his epistles?
So sign gifts have ceased for the Church?
But, Paul, Scripture, NEVER says “sign gifts have ceased.”
He, scripture, says, some will cease, fail, vanish away…
Sometime in the future.
1 Cor 13:8 KJV
whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;
whether there be tongues, they shall cease;
whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
———-
And Paul, as he “explains this mystery”
exhorts believers, “throughout his epistles,” to…
**Desire Spiritual Gifts,** **prophesy,** **speak in tongues.**
1 Cor 14:1 KJV
Follow after charity, and **Desire Spiritual Gifts,**
but rather that ye may **prophesy.**
1 Co 14:31 KJV
For ye may all **prophesy** one by one,
that ALL may learn, and ALL may be comforted.
1 Cor 14:39 KJV
Wherefore, brethren, covet to **prophesy,**
and forbid NOT to speak with **tongues.**
———-
And Paul continues “throughout his epistles,”
to exhort believers to, **Prophesy.**
Rom 12:6 KJV
Having then gifts differing
according to the grace that is given to us,
whether **prophecy,** let us **prophesy**
according to the proportion of faith…
———-
And Paul warns believers to
Despise NOT the gift of **prophesy.**
1 Thess 5:20 KJV
Despise not prophesyings.
——–
And Paul warns believers to
NOT neglect the gift in you, given by **prophesy.**
1Tim 4:14 KJV
Neglect NOT the gift that is in thee,
which was given thee by **prophecy,**
with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
A Amos
please read my comment to Maggie dated February 22, 2017 at 2:35 pm for my answer.
Not all gifts have ceased; just the one Paul said would.
* ones— not one
rascott247
Hmmm? Interesting thought.
“Where there is no HS baptism there is no Body.”
Have to think a little about this.
———-
You write…
“We are placed in the Body by baptism of the Holy Spirit.”
“HS baptism was future to Acts1:5.”
I’m-a-thinkn, these are two different baptisms. Yes?
1 Cor 12:12-13, The Holy Spirit, be the baptizer.
And The Holy Spirit, baptises, WE, “into one body.”
Acts1:5, Jesus, be the baptizer.
And Jesus, baptises, WE, into, with, The Holy Spirit.
1 Cor 12:13 KJV
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body,
whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free;
and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
———-
Yup – Many baptisms…
“Baptism means immersed implying identification with.
There are many baptisms in scripture (most dry some wet).”
1 – John the baptist “Baptized” – into/with *water*
…..For *the remission of sins.*
….. Mat 3:11, Luke 3:16, Acts 19:4,
2 – Jesus “Baptized” – with *the Holy Spirt and fire*
……So His Disciples *shall receive power.*
….. Mark 1:7-8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33, Acts 1:5, Acts 1:8, Acts 11:16,
3 – The Holy Spirt “Baptized” – believers – into *The Body*
……So WE, His Sheep, His Disciples can ALL be – *One body.*
….. 1 Cor 12:12-13
4 – Some are “Baptized” in *the name* of
…..the *Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.*
…..Mat 28:19.
5 – Some are – “Baptized” in *the name* of the Lord Jesus.
…. Acts 2:38, Acts 10:48, Acts 19:5.
6 – Many are – “Baptized” into *Jesus Christ.*
…. Rom 6:3, Gal 3:27.
rascott247
You write @ February 25, 2017 at 1:48 pm #
“…the Apostles who are the foundation of the Church (Eph 2:20).”
Here’s something for you to think about. 🙂
**Church** is NOT mentioned in Eph 2:20.
And – How many **Foundations** do WE, His Disciples, His Church…
His Ekklesia, His Called Out Ones, His Body…
have?
A. Amos
There is one, ONE not two baptisms of the Holy Spirit. Jesus baptizes believers with the HS and this places the believer into the Body of Christ which is called the Church—a specific ekklesia comprising of Jew and gentile equally untied in Christ. This is not evident by sign gifts! It is not evident by fruits of the Spirit! Who we believe in and what we believe about Him is the determining factor concerning justification. The gift of life is not the same as the gifts of the Spirit.
In HS baptism Jesus is the baptizer the HS is the agent. This is no different than saying baptized by/with/into water but the result is different. In ritual water baptism water is the agent. Ritual water baptism in the Name (authority) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is only an external experiential act of an internal positional truth. Water baptism is not necessary to justification and does not save anyone. The baptism by Jesus with the HS places and identifies (to God) the believer into the ONE Body of Christ. This first happened at Pentecost where sign gifts (tongues) were first given to the Apostles who along with NT prophets are the ONE foundation of the Church. We have their instruction through the word of God (the Bible) and it is sufficient for correction, reproof and doctrine for every good work.
The word ekklesia is used 9 times in Ephesians. The Church is the subject of Eph 2:20 as it is throughout the Book.
If you are a Pentecostal you have probably been taught two HS baptisms because sign gifts (particularly tongues), filling of the HS and regeneration are conflated into one ball of wax. I find it interesting that in order to make this one ball of wax people need split HS baptism into two events and then begin to seek evidence of salvation in ritual baptism and sign gifts. This is not biblical.
If one believes in Jesus Christ for everlasting life based on His work on the cross as spelled out in scripture then they have passed from death to life and will not come into judgment (John 5:24). The evidence of justification before God is in the content of what is believed.
rascott247
You write @ February 27, 2017 at 2:23 am #…
“The word ekklesia is used 9 times in Ephesians.
The Church is the subject of Eph 2:20
as it is throughout the Book.”
———-
Well…
The name **Jesus,** is used 20 times in Ephesians.
The name **Christ,** is used 43 times in Ephesians.
The name **Jesus Christ** is used 12 times in Ephesians…
The name **Christ Jesus** is used 7 times in Ephesians…
The name **Our Lord Jesus Christ** is used 5 times…
The name **Christ Jesus our Lord,** is used 1 time…
So, I’m-a-thinkn, **Jesus Christ,** is the subject of Eph 2:20
as **Jesus Christ** is throughout the Book.”
And, Best as I can figure…
**Jesus Christ,** is **The Foundation.**
——–
Didn’t the apostle Paul, the master builder, say…
WE, His Sheep, His Disciples, His Church, His Ekklesia…
Are God’s building?
And, **Jesus Christ,** is **The Foundation?**
And, “NO one can lay a **foundation**
other than that which is laid,
**which is Jesus Christ?**
1 Cor 3:9-11 ESV
For we are God’s fellow workers.
You are God’s field, God’s building.
According to the grace of God given to me,
like a skilled master builder I laid a **foundation,**
and someone else is building upon it.
Let each one take care how he builds upon it.
For NO one can lay a **foundation**
other than that which is laid,
**which is Jesus Christ.**
———-
Didn’t Paul, write both 1 Cor 3:9-11, and Eph 2:20?
If Paul is consistent, in 1 Cor 3:9-11, and, in Eph 2:20?
Wouldn’t **Jesus Christ,** be **The Foundation,** of the apostles and prophets?
Eph 2:20 NKJAV
20a – And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ
20b – himself being the chief corner stone;
Amos
[So, I’m-a-thinkn, **Jesus Christ,** is the subject of Eph 2:20]. That just doesn’t fit the grammatical structure.
“The subject of a sentence is the person, place, thing, or idea that is doing or being something. You can find the subject of a sentence if you can find the verb.”
All verbs point to the subject being Jewish and gentile believers being joined together as one assembly. Having been made alive together (Eph 2:5) raised up together and made to sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:6) both being made one (Eph 2:14) the two made one New Man (Eph 2:15) both reconciled to God in one Body (Eph 2:16) both having access by one Spirit to the Father (Eph 2:18) fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God (Eph 2:19). All these truths concern the Church (Eph 1:22; 3:10:21; 5:22-29,32) which is the building that is being fitted together (Eph 2:21-22).
The apostles & (NT) prophets established the foundation (their work) upon Jesus Christ, the foundation stone (Eph 2:20) and we are to build on that foundation (1 Cor 3:9-11). We don’t lay another foundation we build upon the instructions of Christ and the Apostles. Scripture is the authoritative word of God through the apostles & (NT) prophets there are no true Apostles and prophets today.
rascott247
Appreciate the English Lesson…
I neber hat bin edjumacated berry gud. 🙂
You write…
“The subject of a sentence is
**the person,** place, thing, or idea
**that is doing or BEING something.**
You can find the subject of a sentence
if you can find the verb.”
Well, as I re-read Eph 2:20, with this new information on
“The subject of a sentence…”
Isn’t Jesus, **the person,** BEING **The Foundation?**
Isn’t Jesus, **the person,** BEING **The Foundation?**
Of the apostles and prophets?
Didn’t Paul, an apostle, a masterbuilder, kinda say…
Jesus Christ is, **The ONE Foundation?** Yes?
“For NO one can lay a **foundation**
other than that which is laid,
**which is Jesus Christ.**”
———-
I can agree,
Isn’t Jesus, **the person,** BEING **The Foundation?**
Of WE, His Ekklesia? His Disciples?
His Called Out Ones, His Body, His Church?
Who, “are built upon” **The Foundation?**”
———–
I might be wrong…
And NOT be berry gud in english…
And NOT know, “The subject of a sentence…”
But, I do know, “The subject “ of my effection…
And, I do know, “The ONE Foundation” I’m being built on…
{{{{{{ Jesus Christ }}}}}}
Amos
There’s no need to take my comment as a personal attack for it was not meant to insult but to simply show that in Eph 2 Paul is explaining that the Church is being built upon the foundation of the Apostles & (NT) prophets with Jesus Christ as the cornerstone. A cornerstone is not the whole of a foundation and a foundation is not a whole of a building. In practical terms Paul is saying that the Church is built on the NT.
We know Christ through what is revealed about Him in Scripture. It is the way God chose to do it: It is His work through the Apostles & (NT) prophets as a foundation with Christ as cornerstone that the Church be built. It seems that you wish to bypass the Apostles & (NT) prophets and claim direct revelation still occurs. I am showing you that Scripture tells a different story. Anyone today claiming Apostleship and prophecy through dreams and visions is “laying another foundation” than the one laid by the Apostles & (NT) prophets. The building (Church) is well past the foundation stage.
It is wonderful that you see the centrality of Christ in Scripture (I do too). It is wonderful that He is the object of your affection (mine too). And because of those two things I will stick to what Scripture (given by inspiration of the HS) says concerning the Church and its relationship to Christ by trying to understand what the text is saying in context, which means I need to consider the rules and logic of written language to the best of my ability.
rascott247
You write…
“There’s no need to take my comment as a personal attack
for it was not meant to insult…”
Thanks for the kind words…
There was NO “personal attack” felt on my part.
I’ve been enjoying the conversation.
Just trying to add a little humor…
I guess the smiley face… 🙂
Did NOT work so well… Oy Vey!!!
Good to hear Amos. I don’t know the language of emoji too well. Guess it’s a generational thing.
Now “oy vey” that I understand!
By the way Amos, I do stand corrected. Eph 1:17 means that God the Father is the implied subject in chapter 2 so that would make the Jew and gentile believers, the direct object and the foundation the indirect object and not the subject in v 20. I apologize for my confusion in diagramming Paul’s sentences. God the Father is doing ; Christ and the Church is being.