Three Reasons God is a Cessationist

Jordan Standrich has some thoughts on cessationism vs. continuationism to help us think through this challenging topic. “An important part of cessationism,” says Standridge “is God Himself and what He has done in history.”

In this piece over at The Cripplegate, Standrich offers three reasons to bolster his argument that God is a cessationist and not a continuationist. He writes:

Lord I believe that Jordan will play in the NBA! No! I declare Jordan will play in the NBA!

That was a sentence that a guy prayed over me as we were leaving a basketball camp I attended in high school. He said that sentence as he alternated between speaking in tongues and speaking in English. I wanted to say, “have you not seen me play this whole week? I’ll be lucky to start on my high school team this year!” That was the first time I was exposed to the modern version of the gift tongues. Over the years I’ve had a chance to attend quite a few pentecostal churches and events but it wasn’t until I got to seminary that I really started gaining interest in Charismatic theology.

Over the years my disdain for the “miracle workers” on tv grew as I heard of thousands of people in wheelchairs praying and hoping to be healed at Benny Hinn crusades, only to leave disappointed, questioning God and being told they simply didn’t have enough faith to be healed. These stories saddened me and made me want to make sure I understood what God said in his Word regarding the miraculous gifts. I’ve come to take the cessationist position. Immediately, one of the first things I noticed was that cessationists have been accused of limiting God.

Picture a box. Let’s call it the “can’t do miracles box.” Anyone placed inside this box, of course, can’t do miracles. For about a century now, many people in the church have accused those who would call themselves “cessationists” of putting God inside that box. Cessationists believe that God has ceased working in certain ways that He did previously. Namely, He limits the miraculous abilities that humans can do.  Whether it is the ability to be able to speak in unlearned languages as in Acts 2, heal a lame man as in Acts 3 or to be able to correctly predict the future as Agabus did in Acts 21, cessationists believe that God has ceased allowing human beings to perform these miraculous gifts.

In other words, cessationists believe that God–shortly after the death of John–put human beings back into the “can’t do miracles box” as He has for most of history.

Much ink has been spilled over this subject and I don’t think I will add anything to the conversation, but I thought it would be helpful to boil some thoughts down in a simple way. Of course this will not cover every aspect of cessationism, nor will it be comprehensive in its critique of continuationism, (just search cessationism in thecripplegate.com search bar if you want to study this subject further) but I hope it will at least give you a couple thoughts to help you as you think through this incredibly important topic. An important part of cessationism is God Himself and what He has done in history. So here are three reasons God is a cessationist.

  •  Biblical History

Think about it for a second, who could do miracles in the Bible?

The first person that comes to mind is Jesus of course and the disciples. The other would be Elijah and of course Elisha after him. And finally, we have Moses, as well as Joshua with a miracle or two of his own. Can you think of anyone else? Anyone between Adam and Moses? Anyone between Moses and Elijah? Even one person between Elijah and Jesus? 6000 years at least of world history and only 200 years where people could do miracles?

It’s fascinating to think through this because it would seem like God is a cessationist himself.

Typically, man is inside the “can’t do miracles box” and only gets let out for about 60-70 years at a time only to be put back into the box for centuries. Let’s say that between Adam and Moses, there are about 2500 years of history, in this time there was no human being could do miracles. Then, for about 60 years, God allowed Moses and Joshua to be able to do a dozen or so miracles. Then, between Joshua and Elijah, there were about 500 years, and, again, for about 60 years God allowed Elijah and Elisha to be outside of the box and perform about a dozen miracles. So, for about 4000 years of Old Testament history, only four men were able to do miracles for a total of 120-140 years, and only a couple dozen miracles at that. Finally, 900 years after Elijah, God Himself came to earth and did an incredible number of miracles, and then allowed His disciples to do many miracles for about 60-70 years until the apostle John passed away. And for 2000 years of church history God only allowed a few miracle workers for a minor fraction of that time. And consistent with Bible history, the Lord put man back into the box where he belongs and took over the duties of lone miracle worker.  Continue reading

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164 Responses to Three Reasons God is a Cessationist

  1. Manny1962 April 3, 2017 at 10:52 am #

    I’m not saying God won’t do miracles today, but I have yet to see anyone doing one, specially as done by Jesus or the apostles. I’ve never seen a person do exactly one as it was done in the Bible, the apostles were on a mission, the founding of the church, Moses and Aaron were on a mission, delivering the Israelites and the founding of the promised land, there was always a mission or witness when a miracle was needed, it wasn’t some flippant parlor trick for the aggrandizement of the person performing! Which is what you have from the hucksters on TV. God is doing miracles daily! The problem is people think miracles are only visually grand and extraordinary events! They are not! Every time a person comes to faith, is delivered from worldly bondage, is saved by our Lord it’s a miracle! The book of Revelation unfurling before our eyes is a miracle! God is allowing His children to see what is occurring and how His word is coming to pass! That’s a miracle too!

    So is God a cessationist? I guess it depends how a person defines a miracle! He is still producing miracles everyday! Kindreds are being saved daily, given that only God can save, yes, it’s a miracle! Yes, no parting rivers, but that isn’t needed today! We were given a solemn warning, test the spirits, not every “miracle” is from God! But our God is moving daily, His plan is unfurling, but many want “sign and wonders,” not content with the understated miracles happening everyday! The soul of a man is worth more than all the gold in the world, when that soul is saved, and the angels cheer, how is that any less grandiose than Moses parting the sea?

  2. nannette April 3, 2017 at 11:11 am #

    Immanuel Bible College Spring field, Va. Features sells these bibles in their bookstore:http://ibcbookstore.com/bibles/ Note: The Message Bible. They have featured concerts by Tim Hawkins. In Dec. 2017 they will be in DC. DC Worship Project. Tim Hawkins has this video in which he dedicated this song to Glenn Frye of the Eagles. So you know this is a ‘Christian’ concert, right? This is good for back ground on the Eagles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=53&v=wJhqCGtPkyk and on Tim Hawkins promotion: https://timhawkins.brushfireapp.com/events/436861 As far as the gifts are concerned I would check out what the Bible says, and not man: Romans 1:11, 1 Corinthians 1:7, 7:7, Ephesians 4:7-13, 1 Corinthians 12:1-4, 9, 12:28-31, 1 Corinthians 14:1, 12. 1 Peter 4:10, 1 Timothy 4:14 which says, “Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.” I have been to churches that have pastors who have not the gift and I have heard pastors with the gift, and there is a mile of difference. It’s for the edification of the church that these gifts continue to this day. Thought there are crazies out there having not the Holy Spirit which is Satan’s desire to confuse the masses. We are not surprised.

  3. Manny1962 April 3, 2017 at 11:49 am #

    Addendum to above:

    Revelation 13:13

    ” 13And the second beast performed great signs to cause even fire from heaven to come down to earth in the presence of the people. 14Because of the SIGNS it was given to perform on behalf of the first beast, it DECEIVED those who dwell on the earth, telling them to make an image to the beast that had been wounded by the sword and yet had lived.”

    Becareful with signs and wonders……….

  4. Michael April 4, 2017 at 5:31 pm #

    Sadly, and is typical for “reformed” writers, comments are closed before any real criticism can take place for the things these folks claim is and isn’t from God. Please, I beckon ANY professing reformed Christian to remain accountable for what you write. Stop shutting down those who want to comment and challenge your false positions and reasonings.

    I get where Jordan is coming from…..at least as far as what are obviously not miracles among many who claim to be Charismatic as well as in other circles. Even the unbelievers can see through those falsehoods!

    That said, many falsehoods exist in Jordan’s article. The only thing that should ever quality or exempt a particular thing as being true or not is whether it is scripturally founded or not- not whether these type of miracles were limited from time to time (which the limited writing in the Bible does not prove), what may or may not have happened at Azuza Street (he cannot prove as he wasn’t there) and certainly not what his “heroes,” certainly not mine, have said or believed about anything. Those things ought to have zero weight as to the validity of his argument. So why bring them up at all then?

    The first and only falsehood of his I will address (due to space and time) is this- the title of his post. To speak for God is a very serious matter, and to speak authoritatively about something his own article says within “is his opinion” is simply not wise. First, God does not speak with or within our manmade terms such as “cessassionism.” (likely I can’t even spell it right). He is not that, nor is He any other fancy term used within the article. I assure you most certainly brethren, neither is God reformed. He doesn’t need reformation or our constantly placing Him into our little boxes where we have Him all figured out. That is something “reformed” believers have done and continue to do which simply leaves the average believer left to adopt the particular beliefs of their spiritual hero or local Pastor (otherwise known as a local antichrist due to his attempts to usurp Jesus as the ONLY mediator between mankind and God).

    Here’s a verse for you all that I’ve never once heard quoted- probably because it can’t be figured out with human reasoning:

    “Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And their are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons” (1 Corinthians 12:4-6)

    Note one thing. Where is the focus of this passage upon? Is it upon the average individual believer? Of course not- our focus should never be ourselves. The focus is always upon the triune Godhead- here the Spirit, Jesus as Lord and our Father who orchestrates these things in all persons.

    Now note this phrase: “varieties of effects”
    I agree with Jordan here- that the manner God does and chooses to work can and does change. Many, many scriptural examples could be given. Although most people assume that no apostles exist in our day doesn’t change the fact that many are “sent”out for various causes and/or ministry. A greater argument against apostles would be the WHO and WHY they are sent. Apostles in the 1st century were sent out to lay foundations and were sent out on behalf of the entire body of Christ (not your preferred denomination attempting to replicate itself). Just because the first apostles were unique in very specific ways does not negate the reality of them still existing. Furthermore, such people are way too humble and lowly to ever get ensnared within the framework of institutionalized religion, which is why most of you all have never met one……just saying…..they don’t build their own kingdoms like your heroes have and do…….

    For another example, the gift of prophesy does not and has never been limited to the foretelling of events- that is only one aspect of prophesy. Any foretelling of truth is a form of prophesy (teaching and singing come to mind) and fits the definition. My Bible says, “let two or three prophets speak” and yet the reformed community will throw such verses to the wind along with most of 1 Corinthians 14:26-40…..although they seem to like the last verse without all the specific context.

    The proper answer is this: The focal point of any Christian’s life must remain Jesus Christ- not themselves or what they perceive to be their own spiritual gifts. Within that focus and an ongoing abiding relationship, the Holy Spirit will guide, lead, empower and act out whatever gift HE chooses to in any time and place and for whatever reason He chooses. That will only be proven out in those who first believe God (He did not do many miracles because of their unbelief) and trust that their Father will work according to His own good pleasure.

    At one time when Jesus walked this earth He gave the disciples He chose a delegated authority. They walked in complete freedom and liberty to do as Jesus did- although even then there were exceptions as in when they failed to heal some people). Today authority is invested in individual Christians via the degree they cultivate intimacy with God and through the degree of “dying daily” to everything that stems from themselves (such as institutional religion) that constantly hinders what God desires to do among us. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are just that- HIS gifts not ours and He doesn’t and will not change. The issue is not and has never been whether these gifts have or have not ceased- that isn’t the real issue- but whether the Holy Spirit no longer has the capacity or willingness to exercise these gifts as He sees fit to do so. It’s much easier to attack another professing believer for that which we ourselves reject- a whole lot harder and bolder to tell God Himself what He can or cannot do according to our own perception of reality.

    Truth is truth and God is God. There is a reason Paul the lowly apostle considered all his heritage and education dung……in comparison to the pursuit and first hand knowledge of Jesus Christ…..that’s exactly what it was. Go and believe likewise.

    • nannette April 5, 2017 at 7:43 am #

      Amen Michael! This article should not be given any weight what so ever. First of all the word ‘cessationist’ is NOT IN THE BIBLE. It absolutely is not taught. The writer of this article is a member/teacher of a college that promotes the Message Bible. This is serious as the Message Bible by Eugene Peterson is a personal commentary in his own words. He has put himself above God. Not only that the college promotes questionable so called ‘Christian bands’ and Christian comedians one of which promotes one of his songs to a member of the Eagles band who just died. The Eagles band is not Christian it’s anti Christ. Blessings

      • Amy Spreeman April 5, 2017 at 11:38 am #

        Hi Nanette,
        It appears that the author of this article attends Grace Community Church, which does not promote The Message mess. Can you elaborate on the source for what you’ve posted? Thanks!

        • nannette April 5, 2017 at 12:41 pm #

          Amy Spreeman, Is not Jordon Strandridge the author of this article? Here is the link: https://immanuelbible.church/sermons/messages/teacher/jordan-standridge If you click on Jordan Strandridge’s website on ‘the team’ at the Cripplegate for a new generation of non conformists, Jesse Johnson is also a teaching pastor at Immanuel bible church. If one would read ‘The Message’ bible one could see clearly Eugene’s misinterpretation of God’s word. Look what it says of 1 Corinthians 12:7-11: “Each person is given something to do that shows who God is: Everyone get in to it, everyone benefits. all kinds of things are handed out by the Spirit, and all kinds of people! 8)The variety is wonderful: Wise council clear understanding 9) Simple trust healing the sick-miraculous acts proclamation distinguishing between Spirits and tongues 11) All these gifts have a common origin, but are handed out one by one by the one Spirit of God. He decides who gets what, and when.” The Message. Disgusting isn’t it? Also facts to know. Barnes and Noble gives the Message 4 1/2 stars. Christian Books gives it 4.6 stars, and 94% would recommend this product to a friend! In 2012 based on dollar sales ‘The Message’ was the 10th most popular Bible sold. in 2017 Christian Book expo rate ‘The Message’ at #7. If someone is pushing this fake Bible I would avoid them! Just sayin’ Blessings

          • Tracey April 6, 2017 at 12:19 am #

            Hi Nanette,

            I’ve looked at the link- Im struggling to understand what the connection is between Jordan Standridge and the blasphemous ‘Message’ bible? Could you please clarify?

          • nannette April 6, 2017 at 8:18 am #

            Tracey, Immanuel promotes’ the Message’ Jordon Strandridge teaches there. Come on, how many students have that Bible they can purchase right there at the book store? https://immanuelbible.net/ministries/college-career. Scroll down and watch the short video of him saying he teaches there. Here is the Immanuel store link: http://ibcbookstore.com/bibles/

          • Marinus L April 8, 2017 at 10:00 am #

            Nannette. I listened to Jordan’s sermon on Ephesians 2. I thought it was a good sermon and truthful sermon according to the Bible.
            What is it that you disagree with his sermon?
            O, I know why you are against Jordan, because his sermon had a Reformed flavor. And that’s why you don’t like him.
            I have read many of your comments here on this site, I come to the conclusion that you are a rabid anti-Reformed person. It does not give you the right to spread nothing but lies about us, who believe in the doctrines of Grace. You claim to be a Christian, and I don’t question that. We believe in the same God that inspired men to write it. We believe in the same Jesus Christ that you believe in. We believe that we are born sinners and are spiritually dead, and the only way we can be made alive again is by the power of the Holy Spirit. And only then we are able to repent and believe in Jesus Christ, and recognize that He is the only One paid our sin- debt in full on the cross.

          • nannette April 9, 2017 at 9:47 am #

            Marinus, I’m not rabid as you say. Just being a Berean (Acts 17:11) The difference between you and I is that I was not born again before I was born again. And, I don’t believe God sends people to hell just because he decided they are not the elect. And….Romans 9 teaches about nations not individual people. In all ages salvation is and was by faith. Hebrews 11. And….I believe in spiritual gifts. Just because people are out there who are heretics does not mean that the Spiritual gifts are not in operation today. As you can see we are not in agreement, but that does not mean I can’t have my say, and you can’t have yours without calling people names such as “Rabid” which means that someone is irrationally extreme in opinion or behavior, or violently intense” Jordon is a convert of John Macarthur who teaches that a person can still take the mark and be saved-that’s heresy and it seems your side of the camp has not picked up on this (Rev. 14:9-11). But I guess if your the ‘elect’ then maybe Rev. 14:9-11 does not apply to you. Just sayin’ Blessings

          • Marinus L April 9, 2017 at 1:14 pm #

            Nannette you can disagree with me, but you don’t have the right to lie about what I believe. I don’t believe that God send people to hell, because He decided they are not the elect. This is your thinking. Is that your view who God is??
            Scripture is clear, sinners go to hell on their own choice, by rejecting Jesus Christ.
            When God created me, He did not create a robot.
            It’s obvious that you do not understand the doctrines of grace. Before you continue to comment on this subject, you should be sure that what you are saying is true. Or I will call you a liar. In case you don’t know, it is a sin to lie. REPENT.

          • nannette April 9, 2017 at 3:08 pm #

            Dear Marinus L, Now you are calling me a liar. Nice. I only said what you said, and I quote: “We believe that we are born sinners and are spiritually dead, and the only way we can be made alive again is by the power of the Holy Spirit. And only then we are able to repent and believe in Jesus Christ, and recognize that He is the only One paid our sin-debt in full on the cross.” end of quote. Help me understand. You said, we have to be made alive again by the Holy Spirit FIRST then we are able to repent and believe in Jesus Christ, and recognize that He paid our sin debt. Is that right? Do we have to be made alive by the Holy Spirit first in order to believe?

          • Marinus L April 9, 2017 at 3:41 pm #

            Nannette. The only way we can be made alive, is by the power of the Holy Spirit.

            You said in your previous comment,”And, I don’t believe God sends people to hell just because He decided they are not the elect.” You are insinuating that’s what I believe, which is a lie. This is a common phrase that is hurled at us that believe in the doctrines of grace. And also that we are robots, created by God.

          • Q April 10, 2017 at 6:34 pm #

            Marinus L

            Lets think this through, you are declaring that a person must be made alive before they can repent.

            You said –

            “We believe that we are born sinners and are spiritually dead, and the only way we can be made alive again is by the power of the Holy Spirit. And only then we are able to repent and believe in Jesus Christ…”

            So it is clear you are teaching the Calvinist position that a person must be regenerated before they can then repent and have faith and then be saved.

            In other words man is a corpse spiritually and unable-to-respond willingly to the gospel and must be made alive so they can believe.

            nannette’s conclusion is really a logical one. If God is demanding a person to believe to be saved but that person can’t because they are unable-to-respond without being made alive (regenerated) and God in his sovereignty has decided only the elect will be regenerated…then God in a sense is sending them to hell for not being elect. You may not like the way it was being phrased but the reasoning is sound.

            But what does the bible really say about logical order to have life –

            John 5:40

            “yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”

            The order clearly laid out is as follows:

            “Come to me…” (through faith)
            “…to have life.”

            John 6:53

            “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

            The order clearly laid out is as follows:

            “Unless you eat…drink” (by faith)
            “…you have not life in you.”

            John 20:31

            “But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

            The order clearly laid out is as follows:

            “these are written…” (scriptures)
            “…that you may believe…”
            “…by believing you may have life…”
            Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.

            Acts 15:9

            “He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.”

            The order clearly laid out is as follows:

            “He purified their hearts…”
            “…by faith.”
            It does not say He purified their hearts by regeneration so as to make them have faith. Clearly a purified heart is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.

            Many more verses could be listed, Believe > Life.

            I don’t think anyone is saying the Holy Spirit isn’t involved in convicting a sinner and exhorting one to believe… But that spiritual life is the result of faith not the opposite.

          • Marinus L April 11, 2017 at 7:51 am #

            Q. You agree that God sends the ones that are not elected to hell. That’s not what the Bible says, it’s unbiblical. God does not send people to hell, they go there on their own “free will” By rejecting The Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior.

            Can we agree that everybody is born a sinner, and are destined for hell, until God quickens him. Visualize a mass of sinners going all in one direction, hell.
            God comes along He choose some, not because they are good and look nice, but randomly He choose some. After all did’t He promise His Son a Bride. The only place He can choose from is from that mass that is destined for hell, because that’s all there is. Remember they are still sinners, just because God choose them does not mean that they are automatically saved. Because God is a Righteous and Just God, He hates sin. He send His Son to earth to pay the sin-debt in full. Which He did.
            The remaining sinners that are left in that mass destined for hell, God did not put them there, they are there on their own free will, by rejecting Him. As you can see God does not send anybody to hell. But because of His Grace He choose some to be saved.
            And if you are a Christian right now, you may not agree with it, but you are one of His elect. So Rejoice that He choose you from the beginning for Salvation.
            Accept it and don’t fight it.

          • Marinus L April 11, 2017 at 9:05 am #

            If you say that faith comes first, before regeneration. Then who gives you that faith. If you say you produced that faith, then that faith is not the Saving faith.
            And if you say it is from God, then I say it is impossible, because the Bible says in
            1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
            It is clear that God must quicken him first, because natural man is spiritually dead.
            Ephesians 2:1 And you hath He quickened who were dead in trespasses and sin.

          • nannette April 11, 2017 at 8:18 am #

            Dear Marinus, you said, “God does not send people to hell, they go there of their own “free will” by rejecting the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior.” You did not answer my question. Why was God unsuccessful in regenerating them too if all have to be zapped first? The Bible says, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering t us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9. How can a person reject the ‘zapping’ of the Lord God? How? How can they reject?

          • rascott247 April 11, 2017 at 9:02 am #

            Election is not random it is by grace through faith to whosoever will believe. Faith is not the cause of salvation it is the means to salvation based on Christ’s death and resurrection. Believers are chosen (elect) as sons. In the Church believers are the body of Christ. This election is in Him never out of Him. There are not elect unbelievers walking around. The elect are believers and believers are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, the adoption as sons of God; the redemption of our bodies. Believers now are sons of God and have the Spirit of adoption; sealed with the promise of glorification and heir ship. Predestination begins in Christ, not out of Christ. He was before the founding of the world not us.

            There’s no need to accept a theology that is out of step with the plain teaching of scripture that Christ propitiated for all sin of all people and that some are not willing to believe in Christ for the free gift of eternal life. Propitiation at the cross made it just for God to give life without judgment to all who believe in His provision for life. Unbeliever will face judgment at the GWT but will not be judged for sin but for not having life. The judgment is to confirm (to us) that no human works are worthy of giving life.

          • Marinus L April 11, 2017 at 10:18 am #

            Rascott. If anybody does not believe in the doctrines of Election, THE WAY IT IS TAUGHT IN THE BIBLE, will never agree as long they believe that they have a part in their Salvation, because ” free will ” is their stumbling block.
            Most Christians like the third chapter of John. The conversation Jesus had with Nico started at the first verse. We have to read the whole chapter from the beginning to understand what John 3:16 means.
            In (John 3:1-13 ) Jesus is teaching Nico that man has nothing to do with their salvation, is is all of God through the Holy Spirit verse 8
            And Jesus mentions five time that you must be born again, and that is God’s work.
            Then in verse 5, Jesus uses a verse out of the OT Ezekiel 36:25 then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean, I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols (26) Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new Spirit within you, and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
            ( Notice the ” I will ” mentioned)
            It is clear that the first part of Jesus’s conversation was all about ” Devine Sovereignty”
            The second part is ” Human responsibility ”
            Both are important they go hand in hand. That’ s why I find it important that to understand the Gospel fully, it is important to teach the doctrines of grace.

          • nannette April 11, 2017 at 10:39 am #

            Dear Marinus, you said, It is clear that the first part of Jesus’s conversation was all about Devine Sovereignty” “The second part is “human responsibility” How in the world can a human be responsible if they are not regenerated first? How can they being completely dead and unable to know what to be responsible for? Did God zap them all or not? If he did not zap the ones who are supposedly responsible then he left them dead and unable to repent and believe. If God did zap them then all men should be saved because God cannot fail. So your view of ‘Devine Sovereignty says then that God puts them in hell without any choice if they are not zapped, or are they? Do you get what I’m trying to say? Cause I sure don’t understand your reasoning. Faith is not a work. Faith is believing God. The moment a person believes the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) He/she receives the Holy Spirit who is God, who will be in each individual person, and is born again. Period. He/She is justified by Faith alone in Christ alone..

          • rascott247 April 11, 2017 at 11:18 am #

            Marinus
            I just explained biblical election to salvation i.e. those “in Him” are chosen as sons and predestined to glorification an heir ship. As I have said before, free will is a straw man because faith does not justify, Christ does. Faith does not regenerate the HS does.

            You keep conflating faith with regeneration and therefore fail to see that faith is a means not a meritorious cause. Man has nothing to do with justification. Nothing! The gift of life is received by grace through faith. It is by God’s initiative to draw people to Christ and it is the HS Who inspired scripture and convicts of sin that unbelievers can come to understand the simplicity of the Gospel. This is why we are to preach the Gospel to all men. The standard Calvinist rebuttal is to say “it’s because we don’t know who the elect are”. That is a theological reply not a biblical one.

            Marinus I understand TULIP. I have studied it by reading the apologist, the creeds, and through interaction with adherents. Where do you suggest I go for understanding? Does God have to gift me understanding in some Gnostic way? Must I be chosen to see TULIP in scripture; after all I see so many passages that when taken in context plainly refute TULIP aka “the doctrines of grace”?

            Thanks for the conversation Marinus but again I’ll pass on TULIP and continue to object to it as a theology that denies the plain declarations of scriptures for the all too apparent reason that certain verses clash with the logic of the theology.

          • Q April 11, 2017 at 1:16 pm #

            Marinus L,

            By your example you prove how TULIP impinges on God’s character, you have all humanity on their way to hell and God saving very few when he could easily save all.

            Imagine a burning building with 15 people inside and I rush in and save 3, I could easily save all 15 but only save 3, when asked why I didn’t save everyone I reply, well my son needed a bride, I let the rest die for my glory! They were going to burn anyway!

            Would I be a hero or a monster.

            Reformed theology is purposely complicated and explained with jargon making it hard to understand so it gets a good run once in awhile but when people begin to understand it it gets summarily rejected because people realize that isn’t the God of the bible. People like you remain caught in it because defending it becomes our proof you are part of the “elect” and it becomes the only way you know you’re saved. That’s why it’s such a big issue for you. If you would truly consider the arguments against it you could be set free from that twisted view of God’s sovereignty and TULIP and impinging on Gods Character and love for all men.

          • Marinus L April 11, 2017 at 5:04 pm #

            Q It is ok ,to not understand the doctrines of grace, your salvation does not depend on that, it will give you a better understanding of the gospel, it makes you a discerning person.
            But you can’t say that you don’t believe it, this means that you understand it, but don’t believe it. Because the doctrines of grace is taught in the Bible. It is God’s Word.
            I am completely at peace to understand the doctrines of grace, I thank God everyday that He gives me the ability to understand it.

            Another mis understanding that the anti-calvinist have is, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation , Does not mean that you are automatically saved. We are still sinners in need of a Savior. The difference is, if you are one of His chosen one, you will not refuse His offer of salvation

            The example you presented of the 15 men in a burning building, does not make any sense. If you understand the comment I send you on April 11,2017@ 7:51 am.

          • Q April 11, 2017 at 7:26 pm #

            Marinus L

            I definitely don’t believe the so called “doctrines of grace” and they are not in the bible, they are just man’s misunderstanding of the bible, God and God’s character.

            Feel free to repost your comment here. Thanks

          • rascott247 April 12, 2017 at 5:12 am #

            Calvinism is an intellectual temptation and the majority of Calvinists are very bright. It’s just that the system makes scripture subordinate to doctrine and the contradictions between scripture and the doctrine have to be explained away somehow so philosophy is employed by the system’s apologists in defense of the construct and wordiness is used to hide the equivocations. Quite simply the passages used to explain and defend the “doctrines of grace” are made to assume all 5 points.

            I am not anti-Calvinist but I am anti-Calvinism. I don’t believe Calvinism is wrong about everything but the system is extra biblical in all areas and therefore to me it is more philosophy than Christianity. I often wonder if the Calvinists I run across ever spend much time in trying to understand other positions (excluding the flip side known as Arminianism which they seem to label all opposition as). I have spent quite a lot of time getting to know Calvinism, the who’s who, the argument techniques, the proof text. My experience is that only occasionally do I run across an adherent who was able to look at the text of scripture without wrapping it completely in TULIP for even an hour. The “doctrines of grace” must stand after all someone called them the “doctrines of grace”.

          • Marinus L April 12, 2017 at 9:09 am #

            Rascott. Thank you for your comment, of course I don’t agree on some point you make. The following is a quote you made,” I often wonder if the Calvinist I run across ever spend much time in trying to understand other positions ( Excluding the flip side known as Arminianism which they seem to label all opposition as.)”
            I have attended a Calvary Chapel church for many years, and know what the Arminian view is. In the meantime I also listened to many pastors on radio and tv and one of them was John Macarthur. And I found out of all the pastors that I listened to ( including my own pastor) that JMac taught the whole Bible, he did not skip some parts that others will skip over, the doctrines of grace,
            Their was no need to search for other positions, I found that TULIP is wrapped completely in Scripture.

            The other point I like to make is, you said,” I have spent quite a lot of time getting to know Calvinism, the who is who, the argument techniques, the proof text. WOW
            That is a mouthful . I don’t have to look at the who is who, the argument techniques , all I look at is what they teach, is that supported by Scripture. I’m a simple man, and it seems to me what JMac teaches is mostly Scriptural, I say mostly, because we are still in the flesh we are not perfect.

          • nannette April 12, 2017 at 10:42 am #

            The doctrines of grace = T.U.L.I.P, the 5 doctrines. Galatians 1:6-9.

          • Marinus L April 12, 2017 at 10:49 am #

            Nannette IGNORANCE ABOUND.

          • Q April 12, 2017 at 2:37 pm #

            lol When did Calvary Chapel become Arminian Marinus L?

            https://www.amazon.com/Calvinism-Arminianism-Word-God-Perspective/dp/0936728469

          • rascott247 April 12, 2017 at 3:25 pm #

            That’s fine Marinus and as I’ve said before, you are free to believe as you will. I know exactly what JMac teaches, I have heard him and read him , he is a prolific book writer. He may teach from the whole Bible but if he teaches limited atonement (and he does) and if he teaches that the whole world in 1 John 2:2 means the elect only (and he does) then he does not teach the whole Bible but he teaches TULIP.

          • Marinus L April 12, 2017 at 5:28 pm #

            Rascott Is it possible that you don’t understand.

          • berlorac April 12, 2017 at 5:35 pm #

            Q, have you read Chuck’s document that you reference? He comes down on the side of Arminius on at least 4 of the 5 points. Some may argue about whether he agrees with Arminius on the “P.”

            I spent 2 years in CC and it made me a “Calvinist.” I hadn’t a clue about Arminius or Calvin when I went there, but so many things that the pastor taught made me scratch my head. I began to research and study and realized that what the pastor was teaching wasn’t what the Bible said. But after more research, I realized that what he was teaching was Arminian and, no wonder, because that’s what CC believes and teaches.

          • rascott247 April 12, 2017 at 5:51 pm #

            What I understand is that 1 John 2:2 say that Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world which is read and taught as ” elect of the whole world” because of limited atonement. I understand that but I don’t understand it to be true which is equal to belief. So if you want to say I don’t believe it then fine. But don’t insult your and my intelligence with the gnostic like claim that I “don’t understand” it.

          • berlorac April 12, 2017 at 6:32 pm #

            RS, not all Calvinists see 1 John 2:2 that way. I don’t. I see that John is ministering to Jews only, per his agreement with Paul. John is telling his Jewish audience that God is no respecter of persons, just as He revealed to Peter at Cornelius’ house. The blood of Christ avails to Jews and Gentiles, the whole world.

          • Q April 12, 2017 at 6:35 pm #

            Hey berolac,

            Yes, I think I have it in my book shelves. Chuck agreed with the reformed position on Election and disagreed with Arminianism on Perseverance, he did not believe a “true believer” could lose their salvation. Chuck didn’t really push against Arminian teaching but did on Reformed.

          • berlorac April 12, 2017 at 7:03 pm #

            Q, in that book, Chuck says, “We believe that God chose the believer before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-6), and based on His foreknowledge, has predestined the believer to be conformed to the image of His Son (Romans 8:29-30).”

            Chuck’s understanding of foreknowledge is the standard Arminian line: that God foresaw what men would do and so elected based on that foreknowledge. This is not the Calvinist/Reformed position. The Reformed believe that foreknowledge is, properly translated, forelove. Election is not based on God’s knowledge of future events as the Arminians (and CC) teach.

          • rascott247 April 12, 2017 at 7:32 pm #

            B, In your interpretation are those “Jews and Gentiles, the whole world” the elect only? If yes then you have just worded it differently but end with the same result probably in effort to keep with TULIP. I am using the term Calvinist the way Calvinists theologians do that is that if all 5 points are held to then one is a Calvinist and if only 1 is rejected then one is not a Calvinist although they may humor a 4 pointer.

            The only reason I see to interpret “the whole world” differently in 2:2 then you would in the rest of the book is to protect limited atonement and limited atonement is held to protect against universal salvation and for the protection of irresistible grace and irresistible grace is held to protect total inability and total inability is held to because faith is considered a work in Reformed theology so that work must be done by God and God can’t fail. All 5 points are assumed and then read into the text even when , like 1 John 2:2, a passage contradicts one of the points.

          • Q April 12, 2017 at 9:37 pm #

            berlorac,

            Chuck is confirming Calvinist Election –

            “We believe that God chose the believer before the foundation of the world”

            What he is saying about foreknowledge is the predestination to the image of Christ –

            “and based on His foreknowledge, has predestined the believer to be conformed to the image of His Son”

          • berlorac April 13, 2017 at 11:15 am #

            Hey Q, I get that. It sounds like Calvinist soteriology, but you have to take into account Chuck’s definition of foreknowledge. For him, God chooses and predestines, according to His foreknowledge, but foreknowledge of what? Chuck’s (and the vast majority of “Arminians”) answer is “foreknowledge of what a person will choose.” Thus, God chooses based on His foreknowledge that a person is going to exercise faith. That’s not Calvinism.

          • Q April 13, 2017 at 3:35 pm #

            Hey berolac, I can give you that, Chuck taught it both ways…depending on where he was in scripture, he never really drilled down on it like has been done and is being done today because he didn’t want to cause division and so he many times tried to take the ‘balanced’ position.

            Do you believe Chuck would take the Arminian position of Prevenient grace?

            I think those who reject Calvinism have common beliefs with Arminianism but not necessarily the same. Chuck wasn’t an Arminian.

          • Q April 13, 2017 at 4:35 pm #

            berlorac, sorry for the misspelling of your name.

          • berlorac April 13, 2017 at 6:39 pm #

            Q, If I remember correctly, Chuck did have an affinity for Wesley and the Holiness Movement, so I wouldn’t be surprised if he had argued for the Wesleyan “prevenient grace.” I don’t have any documentation on that.

            Anyway, I’m going to bow out because I have to prioritize some things. Yet another go round on Calvinism/Arminianism just isn’t at the top of the list. LOL. It’s always good talking to you, Q. Have a good one, brother.

          • Q April 13, 2017 at 10:55 pm #

            Good talking with you too!

      • nannette April 9, 2017 at 4:19 pm #

        Dear Marinus, So you are saying we must be made alive or born again first. Isn’t that what you are saying? First I get zapped, and then I go wow I must repent and believe?

        • Marinus L April 9, 2017 at 4:29 pm #

          It is not a matter of, must repent. It is, are you able to repent and believe. Even if you want to repent and believe, and you are not zapped by the Holy Spirit, you will not be able.
          Read how the apostle Paul was regenerated on the Damascus road. That is a good example how one is converted.

          • nannette April 9, 2017 at 4:55 pm #

            Dear Marinus, then like I said, you must be born again to be born again in a sense. Why would not all men be able to repent and believe if God has to regenerate them first? Seems to me God would then have failed if He could not have been able to regenerate them too.

          • Jackie April 13, 2017 at 7:38 am #

            John MacArthur is a scripture twister who says that anyone who gets the mark can be saved after that. That clearly goes against Revelations. All these JMac followers are nothing but followers of men with how much they uphold JMac like he is infallible. It’s almost shocking.

          • Marinus L April 13, 2017 at 8:36 am #

            Hey Jackie, take it easy, I see the venom come out of your mouth. I follow JMac because he is a great Bible teacher, after spending years in a Calvary Chapel it was a delight to hear someone teach the truth. Their must be other things that he teaches that you don’t like. Like I said before, nobody is perfect, and I leave it up to God, let Him be the Judge. And I’m sure that if He sees JMac heart he will forgive him for what he said. Nobody is perfect that includes you and me, that’s the reason we need a Savior.
            Why don’t you let it out, what other things don’t you like about JMac.

          • Jackie April 13, 2017 at 9:57 am #

            Well that applies only to JMac recanting his unbiblical statement on the mark of the beast? Cause he never recanted it. Otherwise how can God forgive him for something that he doesn’t think he did wrong. If that’s the case, then the same should apply to Chuck Smith and others , “God will forgive them for what they said” according to you. And venom? Hmm really? Because I don’t bow down to JMac? And sadly you admit openly on here that you follow man. That’s sad. You’re god of Calvinism is a false god just like the Arminian false one. You tried to steer me to your doctrines of grace once before on here, been there done that. Grew up Calvinist Baptist. You are deceived.

          • Marinus L April 13, 2017 at 10:22 am #

            Jackie, you claim to be a Christian and I don’t question that. And I truly believe that JMac is a Christian. Stop attacking our brother in Christ, this has been going on to long. As a Christian you should be praying for him. And stop doing the devil’s work. He loves to see you do what you are doing, because JMac does God’s work.
            I will be praying for you.

          • Jackie April 13, 2017 at 10:48 am #

            Then stop doing the devils work as well and attacking Calvary Chapel and Chuck Smith (and no I don’t attend there nor endorse them) since you don’t like “attacking” Christians who’ve been wrong. Then let’s all dismiss any heretics and bible twisters and love one another. Isn’t that what you are saying? Why do you visit this blog then?

          • Marinus L April 13, 2017 at 12:18 pm #

            Jackie, there is a big difference between JMac that said something wrong once in a question and answer session.
            And the CC church who does a lot of continued damage to the Body of Christ. Look how many thousands are being deceived. Every week they invite the world into their church by drawing them in with rock style music, like Hillsong and Jesus culture songs
            And to top it of the pastor says invite all you sinner friends to come including your homosexual friend, we will bring them to Christ. All we have to do is have them walk the isle and say this little prayer. What a deception that is. Did you ever watch a Harvest Crusade with Greg Laurie? What a deception that is. He has the nerve to insinuate that he is the one that saved those people. No Greg it is God that saves. Ever listen to the interview he gives after a crusade, how boastful he sounds. No thank you there is a lot wrong with CC. No wonder CC is falling apart.

            He also said, Everybody here is allowed to participate in the Lord’s Supper. Even if you are an unbeliever. Do you agree with that, are unbelievers welcome at the Lord’s supper?

            I find there is a big difference, CC church continued false teacher.
            And I don’t just say that by hearsay. I experienced it personally. Thank God that He led me to listen to JM, who made me aware that I was not really saved.

          • Jackie April 13, 2017 at 1:47 pm #

            Unless English is your second language I clearly said that I didn’t attend nor endorse Calvary Chapel. Lol

          • Marinus L April 13, 2017 at 2:30 pm #

            Jackie. Ok you did’t attend nor endorse, but you defend.

          • Jackie April 13, 2017 at 5:52 pm #

            Defend??? Because I used them as an example? Quote me where “defended” them! In context please! Because my EXAMPLE I used of them was sarcasm to point out your double standards! I simply said that if your going to use the whole “doing the devils work” by me pointing out errors of JMac (which is a major one) then you must not do the same with CC. You are either too literal or English is your second language.

  5. Manny1962 April 5, 2017 at 10:59 am #

    Yes the Eagles are/were anything but Christian.

  6. Jamie April 6, 2017 at 8:02 am #

    1 Cor 1:7

    …6 because our testimony about Christ was confirmed in you. 7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly await the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ. 8 He will sustain you to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.…

    Notice this verse says ANY spiritual gift. Notice he did not say “except for”….

    It is sad that when some, ok, a lot, misuse the gifts so badly,that others start to say that they must not be for today as we don’t see them being used correctly.

  7. Manny1962 April 6, 2017 at 8:44 am #

    I agree totally, there are gifts that we have been given by The Lord that are irrevocable, such as the gift of teaching, leadership, those that encourage, gifts that edify and help fellow brothers and sisters carry on with life as Jesus’ return grows nearer. I am of the opinion that certain gifts have ceased because they were only needed when the church was being founded by the apostles…….Such as tongues, miracles that were wrought by the apostles to show their authority such as handkerchiefs healing people, or the shadow of an apostle curing someone, or bringing someone back from the dead, such as the young man who fell from the second storey while Paul was expositing. But, many wolves came in to the fold, with trickery and lies and the sheep fell for the lies. Instead of reading their bibles they follow the false teachers, they’re taught that any form of judging g is wrong, they use Jesus’ statement on unbiblical judging as their base, this protects them from scrutiny, and since the sheep want to remain ignorant they​ follow along with the heresies. That in a nutshell is the state of churchianity.

  8. Lyn April 12, 2017 at 12:07 am #

    Yes, praise God the doctrines of grace are taught and found throughout both the Old and New Testament!!! Praise God those who humble themselves and are teachable understand these truths.

  9. Leemajor April 13, 2017 at 12:45 pm #

    With great interest I was reading the discussions between Calvinisme and Armeniesme.
    I like to put in some of my little humble view on this subject. It is a problem that in trying to prove or defend one side of the equation, we are tempted to minimize the other.
    The Bible proclaim both views and so should we. Human beings are incapable of fully grasping a concept such as this.
    Yes…..God is absolutely sovereign and knows all.
    Yes……Human beings are called to make a genuinen decicision to place face in Christ unto salvation.
    These two facts seem contradictory to us, but in the mind of God they make perfect sense.
    2 Peter 3:9 ( perish ) Matthew 11:28-30 ( invitation, responsibility, sovereignty)
    Luke 10:25-28 ( our responsibility)

  10. Manny1962 April 13, 2017 at 1:23 pm #

    To be fair to both sides:

    1. JMac, as far as I can remember, was calling out the RCC as demonic and false, when no other pastor dared, he was the first pastor I remember speaking against politicized “Christianity” such as Kingdom Now heresy, he was calling out against compromised pastors who were accepting or softening their stand against homosexuality and the inerrancy of scripture, he called out the beginning of the seeker friendly wave and specially Rick Warren, he called out TBN and it’s cadre of money preachers, he called out Osteen, the peddlers of name it and claim it, before it was fashionable to do so. In that aspect he was being true to the word.

    2. What threw me off completely with JMac was his mark-of-beast comment. That was a shocking declaration that many have used against him, the problem is I’ve never read a retraction, an apology nor a statement of clarification. As for his salvation, that is between God and JMac as I truly don’t know.

    I’m neither a Calvinists nor an Arminian, like Paul said:

    1 Corinthians 3:4

    “3for you are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and dissension among you, are you not worldly? Are you not walking in the way of man? 4For when one of you says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere men? 5What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? They are servants through whom you believed, as the Lord has assigned to each his role”

    • Jackie April 13, 2017 at 1:52 pm #

      His ministry defended the mark of the beast statement, via Phil Johnson. JMac IS in the wrong, the mark of the beast statement is unequivocally against scripture.

      • nannette April 13, 2017 at 3:58 pm #

        Jackie, your are right. How many people believed him? How many are going to take the mark because they believed John Macarthur? I don’t believe the church will be here at that time, but the ones left behind who thought they were Christians, Laodicea. Cessationism has been ignored in all this talk as well. You can’t change people’s minds obviously by all the comments, but at least the sides have been represented. It’s just like this lady I know who owns a paint and carpet store with her husband I know. We talked about God often, both of them, so much so I truly thought they were Christians, they talk the same language. So, I asked her if she goes to church, she said she didn’t but use to go to the Lutheran Church, then I asked her if she went to Bible study she said she did. She cringed and said I know your not going to like it but I study with the Jehovah Witnesses, like she knew something was bad about it. I said to her, you know they believe Michael the archangel is Jesus. She said no they don’t!! I said go ask them, I will come back to see what they said. So, I came back a few days later, and said, so, what did they say? She said yes, they said Michael the archangel is Jesus and I believe them!

        • Marinus L April 13, 2017 at 4:10 pm #

          Leemajor. We call that God’s Sovereingty, and human responsibility.

        • Marinus L April 13, 2017 at 4:19 pm #

          Nannette. All Christians are raptured prior to tribulation. But the first half of trib 144,000 Jews will be saved. And Gentiles to numerous to count will be saved.
          Some even suggest that there will be more saved during tribulation then ever before.

          • Jackie April 13, 2017 at 5:56 pm #

            Revelations is clear that getting the mark gets you thrown in the lake of fire. Quit following after men.

        • Leemajor April 13, 2017 at 9:24 pm #

          And the Jehovah Witnesses denie the Trinity

      • Manny1962 April 13, 2017 at 4:27 pm #

        I agree with your assessment, JMac is CLEARLY in the wrong, really wrong when it comes to that statement, there’s no other way to say it:

        REVELATION 14:9

        “9And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand, 10 he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.…”

        But, he’s been right about the other points I stated.

        I don’t follow JMac, as I don’t follow Calvin or Arminius, all I say is for everyone to present clear evidence. I ask all involved in discussion, is JMac disqualified, has his failure with the mark statement tainted his ministry? Or would anyone say his Calvinist view has?

        • berlorac April 13, 2017 at 6:50 pm #

          Manny, JMac is correct on so many points that I don’t think his remark about the Mark is worthy of “disqualification.” No one is perfect. The biggest issue I have with JMac (and all the usual Calvinist/Reformed) is their insistence that we are saved by grace but that we must turn to the Law for sanctification. Gentiles were never under the Law and Christians are not now under the Law. That’s a major reason why I maintain that I’m not a Calvinist.

          But, as you’ve pointed out, JMac has been at the forefront in warning about all the junk going on now. His articulation of the problems we face today has been outstanding. And, of course, his foundation is as solid as can be, unlike those in Word of Faith who believe that Christ was tortured in Hell for three days, and those in W of F and NAR who believe that we are “little gods.” Those are the types of things that are disqualifiers.

          • Manny1962 April 13, 2017 at 8:59 pm #

            Thanks B for your clear response.

          • berlorac April 13, 2017 at 9:58 pm #

            Manny, I will add this: I can maybe see what JMac is saying about the mark of the beast IF he meant that condemnation to the lake of fire is dependent on two things — taking the mark AND worshipping the beast. If JMac is saying (or meant to say) that taking the mark, by itself, may be excusable — perhaps against one’s will? But taking the mark AND worshipping the beast brings condemnation.

            I don’t want to put words in his mouth, but that’s just a thought.

          • Marinus L May 7, 2017 at 11:31 pm #

            berlorac. Yes people can receive the mark and still be saved. Like you said there is a difference between,” receiving the mark ,” or ,” worshipping the beast,”
            And I think we are making a mistake by saying,” taking the mark,” because this sound like they are taking it willingly. It sound more appropriate in this case by saying, ” receiving the mark,”
            Rev. 13:16 He causes ALL, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to RECEIVE a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads,
            This verse tells me a lot, and why I can come to my end conclusion.
            He (the beast) causes ALL (everyone that enters tribulation) ( the bible even emphasizes what ALL means) by saying both small and great, rich and poor,free and slave, etc.

            Another verse that caught my attention is Rev. 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have NOT been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
            This means that the ones that are written in the Book of Life (the elect) will not worship the beast. Why not??

            Because, even by receiving the mark, they are saved by hearing and believing the gospel preached by the angel Rev. 14:6,7. And the 144,000 Rev. 14. And by the preaching of the two witnesses Rev. 11
            Now you’re going to ask,will some of God’s chosen ones enter into the tribulation, yes the first half of tribulation. Because why does He send out his angel, the 144,000 and two witnesses to find the lost sheep. We know that He will not rest until the last one is in the fold. And I believe that everyone that was saved past, present and future was written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world.
            Matt. 24:14 And the gospel of the Kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations and then the end will come.

            Yes my end conclusion is, according to the Bible, that one can receive the mark and still be saved, and anybody that has a different opinion ( I have to mention berlorac this not directed to you) and that is alright, but don’t start calling pastors names that have a different opinion as yours, until you are certain that you are right. And please you explain how you come to your conclusion, don’t just repeat what others say. In the end God will know who is right

          • Marinus L April 14, 2017 at 10:42 am #

            Berlorac, if you excuse me I know you are tired talking about this subject, so am I. But when I read things that I am very interested in, and question myself where I may be at error.
            You stated and I quote,” The biggest issue I have with JMac ( and all the usual calvinist/ reformed is their insistence that we are saved by grace but that we must turn to the Law for sanctification.

            1 Thess.4:1-8 Finally then, brethern, we request and exhort you in The Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God ( just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more.(2) For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of The Lord Jesus, (3) For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality…………………….( thru verse 8)

            Sorry if I misunderstood you.

            And by the way I know that to believe the doctrines of grace is no essential for salvation, but according to 2 Tim. 3:16,17 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching,……………….(17) so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

            That’s why we have so much false thinking in the churches these days.
            Because some churches say doctrines are not important, because it devides the Body of Christ.
            And this is just what satan wants to hear, just skip certain parts its not important.

          • Manny1962 April 14, 2017 at 10:57 am #

            Hey B,

            I don’t think the taking of the mark will be compulsory, I think the ac will want loyal followers, who in turn will turn against new Christians and Jews. And scripture doesn’t say “if you willingly take the mark.” It says IF implying a choice. IF worship beast and image, receives mark………. My hunch it will be done out of loyalty to the beast and the one pushing this will be the false prophet. It’s so amazing how the technology for this is already here, and no one pays attention! Anything with an IP address can be accessed! People are so naive about so called smart devices and what they can really do!

            REVELATION 14:9

            “9And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand, 10 he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.…”

            Sidebar: the situation with The Kings of the East is growing more interesting with each passing day! The Bible calls them Kings, plural, so it just won’t be China headed to the plain of Jezreel in the Valley of Meggido! By the way the rail way from China to Persia has been completed and it’s operational, the best way to move an army of 200 million is through long trains! People do not realize how late the hour is! Mark the Bible, Damascus will be erased completely: Isaiah 17King James Version (KJV)

            17 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

            In all its history Damascus was never destroyed until now, it’s almost completely gone! I don’t think anyone is living there. The focal point will be Israel. There’s a driving madness that have gripped the present leaders, have you noticed?

            My apologies to everyone for my “rant,” I get carried away at times seeing how close we are to the final birth pang in Revelation………

          • Marinus L May 7, 2017 at 11:40 pm #

            I made in my past comments that I believe that you can not be saved after receiving the mark. I have to recant all my past comments.

  11. Marinus L April 13, 2017 at 4:12 pm #

    Leemajor. We call that God’s Sovereingty, and human responsibility.

  12. Leemajor April 13, 2017 at 9:19 pm #

    And because of our human responsibility we do have a free will to accept or to reject
    Him as our savior. We respond to His calling or not, when we accept His free gift, He did the savings work already.

    • Marinus L April 13, 2017 at 9:35 pm #

      Leemajor. Yes, accept or reject, but not choose, because 2 Thess. 2:13 God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation. ( there is only one that does the choosing, and that is God.)

      • rascott247 April 14, 2017 at 3:39 am #

        Marinus
        Hey we agree! We probably agree on much more but definitely we agree that we accept the gift by faith, we do not choose to believe. I would say we are persuaded of the truth by the power of the gospel. Unbelievers can choose to listen to the message but they can’t choose to believe something to be true that they actually believe it to be false. That’s just the way belief is.

        The context of salvation in 2 Thess is from wrath, the tribulation. The Church is not appointed to wrath and will be raptured before the tribulation. Wrath is always in time. The choosing happened through sanctification so “the beginning” Paul referrers to is when the Thessalonians heard the truth, believed the truth and were sanctified through the spirit and truth. Those 3 things did not happen in eternity past. The word through necessitates that whatever happened it happened after what it came through. Like “For by grace you have been saved through faith” necessitates that faith preceded being saved.

        There is an election spoken of by Paul that occurred before the foundation of the world in Eph 1. God chose the Church to be “one new man”, His “workmanship”, made of a Jews and gentiles who believe in Christ for salvation. This election is corporate making one body and members of that body are predestined to the adoption as sons, the redemption of their bodies.

        Marinus I enjoy our conversations and admire your zeal. I hope our disagreements are not seen a personal because I do not.

        • Manny1962 April 14, 2017 at 12:19 pm #

          Well said RS! I do not believe in the Calvin/Arminius rift, I think in the infinite mind of God it is reconciled, I think we create the rift by what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 3:4. Also the enemy of the cross uses this to try and divide true church. Neither Calvin not Arminius were appointed by Jesus, nor were they inspired.

          • Marinus L April 14, 2017 at 4:13 pm #

            Manny. I don’t think you know where you can apply 1 Cor. 3:4. I sound well learned but I don’t think that fits in this conversation.

          • Maggie April 14, 2017 at 7:39 pm #

            Amen, Manny. We are in the same Body of Christ.

          • Manny1962 April 14, 2017 at 10:14 pm #

            Hello Marinus,

            I think too much is being made of Calvin vs Arminius, like RS said “Hey we agree! We probably agree on much more….” I think in the end it’s all reconciled in God’s mind. Jesus and Jesus alone……..We don’t earn it, we don’t deserve it.

          • Manny1962 April 14, 2017 at 10:15 pm #

            And as long as we understand the basics, Maggie got it right.

          • rascott247 April 14, 2017 at 11:32 pm #

            Thanks Manny. When I say we probably agree on much more I am not trying to reconcile Calvinism with Arminianism into a middle ground. I reject both systems as starting with doctrines and then using philosophy and proof texting to back those doctrines. I reject their premises I reject their proof texts. My argument is not Calvinism vs. Arminianism. That’s a false dichotomy.

            My position is that man has volition as he is created in the image of God. But this is a non issue in justification because we do not chose to believe something that we are not persuaded to true (at least if we are sane). The gospel persuades us and God uses men to spread the gospel. Eternal life is the gift not faith and this by grace not works. Faith is man’s responsibility.

            Let no one fool you “doctrines of grace” is code for Calvinism and sounds much more biblical then Calvinism. That’s why the term is used.

            Always great talking to you Manny take care.

          • berlorac April 15, 2017 at 11:48 am #

            Maggie and Manny, are you saying that the Word of Faith and NAR people are not in the Body of Christ? Help me to understand.

          • Maggie April 15, 2017 at 1:23 pm #

            Berlorac, I was agreeing with Manny’s cooment of April 14, 12:19 pm regarding Calvin/Arminius rift.

            Individuals saved in response to the true gospel are in the Body of Christ.

          • Manny1962 April 15, 2017 at 1:32 pm #

            Hi B,

            Are the NAR and WOF people in the body of Christ? I’d say the leaders are not, but misguided sheep are coming out of that demonic inspired movement(s). Those that stay in that sin, I’d say are not in the body, as they teach a different gospel and a different Jesus.

        • Marinus L April 15, 2017 at 1:18 pm #

          Rascott. I can not ignore if somebody tells not the truth according to God’s word. You don’t understand your Bible, what it says about depravity of man.
          I believe I asked you before, if you say faith precedes regeneration. Where does that faith comes from. You quoted in the comment you gave April 14,2017 @11:32 that faith is not gift. Again where does that faith comes from???
          It has nothing to do with Calvinism. It is basic Bible understanding.

          • rascott247 April 15, 2017 at 1:53 pm #

            Marinus
            Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

            The word of God came from God so that man could come to faith. And you are wrong Marinus, believing that the depravity of man means he is incapable of coming to faith by hearing the word of God has everything to do with Calvinism. Believing that that regeneration precedes faith has everything to do with Calvinism. You speak of man being responsible to accept or reject but what do they accept or reject if faith is the gift and it is irresistible? How does that make man responsible? A gift can’t be accepted or rejected in that case. It’s nonsense and a special kind of Calvinist double talk and you can’t see it.

          • Marinus L April 15, 2017 at 4:46 pm #

            Rascott Romans 10:17 makes my point. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. God is the Author of your salvation. You heard his word, then you believe.
            Not calvinism it is plain Bible understanding.

            Something has to wake up a dead sinner. He cannot get up on his own. So is it with a spiritually dead man. God has to quicken him first. Eph. 2:1 and you has He quickened who were dead in trespasses and sin.

            Calvin did not say that, it is God that said it.

          • Marinus L April 16, 2017 at 11:31 am #

            Rascott, here is what the bible says about the depravety of man, and the inability to come to God, unless God first brings him to live.
            Mark 7:21-23 Mans heart is evil.
            Jer. 17:9 Mans heart is sick.
            Eph. 2:3 He is by nature a child of wrath.
            Eph. 2:15 He is at enmity with God.
            Rom. 8:7 Because his mind is set on the flesh is hostile to God.
            And because of all these things, He can not understand spiritual things ( 1 Cor.2:14 )
            And in turn, he does not seek for God. ( Rom. 6:20 )
            On his own he can not believe and come to God, unless God predestine ( Romans 8:29; Eph. 1:5
            Phil. 1:29 God grants that we believe.
            John 1:12-13 We are born again not by our own will, but God’s will.
            John 6:28,29 Believe ( Faith ) is the work of God.

            And these are God’s words, not words of men.
            That’s why I believe what I believe, because God said it.

            AND THIS IS MY FINAL WORDS ON THIS, BECAUSE WE JUST GO ROUND AND AROUND AND GET NO WHERE.

          • Leemajor April 15, 2017 at 2:23 pm #

            Marinus, faith comes from God, it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8.
            Depravity of man does not make him incapable to accept Him as his saviour.
            In Genesis 2:16-17, God warned Adam not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
            Man knows what is good and evil.
            Man is responsible for accepting or rejecting the gift of God.
            I look at it this way, I’m in water nearly drowning. A man on dry land throws me a life saver and shout, grab the live saver. I have the choice to grab it and hold on to it. If I hold on to it, the man on dry land will do the savings work, not me I just hold on to the live saver. Or I can refuse and go down.
            Take your pick.

          • Marinus L April 16, 2017 at 9:10 am #

            Leemajor, that’s right faith is a gift from God, don’t let anybody mislead you. Unless you want to take a little part in your salvation. It belongs 110% to God

          • rascott247 April 16, 2017 at 1:57 am #

            Marinus

            Being quickened first is not the same as “faith comes from hearing”. The latter is not Calvinism the former is. We are not ending at the same point because we are not beginning at the same point. Your presupposition that spiritual death means inability to respond light (which God controls) and hear the word ( which we are commanded to preach) comes from TULIP which defines faith as being meritorious therefore synonymous with salvation. Scripture defines faith as the means to appropriate the gift of by grace salvation it does not define faith as the gift.

            Romans 5:18
            Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

            Notice all men are judged because of Adam’s sin. Also notice that the gift (by grace salvation) came upon all men, not some but all. Faith is not the gift. Faith is how man accepts the offered gift and faith is not meritorious, it does not earn man the gift. God is totally responsible and praiseworthy for providing and giving the by grace gift and for bringing light into the world. It is the spiritually dead man’s responsibility to respond to the light.

            Ephesians 2:5
            Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) —— the gift is “by grace salvation”.

            Ephesians 2:8-9
            For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.—— faith is how man appropriates the gift of by grace salvation. Those who come to faith are saved those who reject the truth are not.

            We agree that salvation is all of God. He controls the rheostat, He gave us scripture and He sends us with the message. The human merit myth can be put to rest. Faith is not a work and spiritual death is separation from God, having our understanding darkened, ignorance, it is not inability to hear the word, see the light that is given us and be persuaded of the truth unless we be quickened first.

          • Marinus L April 16, 2017 at 9:01 am #

            Rascott. ( For by GRACE are you SAVED through FAITH ) All one sentence. This whole package, is a gift from God. That is why I keep asking you where does that FAITH comes from, it seems you have a hard time answering me. The only answer it can be is, “from God” or you muster up that FAITH. You already stated that Faith is not a gift, this means that you produces this faith.

            You try to explain away what quicken is.
            Eph. 2:1. And you hath He quickened who were dead in trespasses and sin.
            And he does that so that you are able to believe.

            I believe every good and perfect gift comes from God James 1:17
            And I truly believe that I don’t have any part in my salvation, that it is ALL of God including faith. That is the requirement to get saved. He wants all the Glory.

          • nannette April 16, 2017 at 7:30 pm #

            Marinus, faith means: Complete confidence, belief in God or the doctrines of religion. (Random House dictionary) When I go to sit on a chair I have complete confidence it is going to hold me without question I walk over to it and sit down without a thought. The chair did not give me that faith. So when God Almighty says I sent my Son to pay the penalty I deserve in my place I put my complete confidence on God’s word for He cannot lie. My faith then is believing what God says is true, otherwise one would make Him a liar and He is not. Faith is mentioned 246 times in the concordance. “NOW faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.” Hebrews 11:1-3. In your world a dead person cannot even have faith in a chair, just saying without the chair doing something to make you believe you can sit on it without crashing to the ground!

          • Marinus L April 16, 2017 at 10:57 pm #

            Nannette, And only God can give you that saving faith.
            1 Cor. 12:8 for to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom…………(9) to another faith by the same spirit.

          • rascott247 April 17, 2017 at 2:08 am #

            Nannette
            Marinus is giving full display of what the ‘doctrines of grace” do to cloud one’s interpretation of scripture. The premise is the conclusion in TULIP. Look at what he has done to 1 Corinthians 12. He has God giving saving faith to some and other Spiritual gifts to others. So people without being given faith (so therefore have none in his scheme) are given gifts of wisdom, knowledge, healings and tongues.

            Not one passage Marinus has used proves that God gives faith to unbelievers to make them believers. All passages that show man is sinful to his core and in need of a Savior show just that and nothing more. Faith does not equal salvation. Faith is the means by which God gives the gift of salvation to sinners. Salvation is the gift not faith and the gift has come upon all men but only those who believe in Christ for salvation will be saved.

          • nannette April 17, 2017 at 7:33 am #

            Rascott, your right. You can’t change minds of cult members no matter how hard you try. The problem with his answer has everything to do with this original article in which they say God is a cessationist. Did the gifts cease or not? How can they talk out of both sides of their mouth. James. 1:8, 2 Peter 3:16. No matter what their dear leader says: http://media.worldviewweekend.com/sites/default/files_wvw.com/audio_legacy/157cc1575e2d4566a4bebbe1b8df10b234d380aa8b4403a55eec9ef48df6569b.mp3

          • Marinus L April 17, 2017 at 8:20 am #

            Nannette. Here is what The Lord said in Matt. 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

          • rascott247 April 17, 2017 at 7:55 am #

            Thanks for the reply Nannette
            Full disclosure, I believe sign gifts and tongues ceased as they were foundational gifts. I cannot take the “perfect” in 1Co 13:10 as the return of the Lord. The gifts of prophecy, knowledge and tongues are said to cease when the perfect comes and those three gifts are contrasted with faith, hope and love. Faith, hope and love remain after prophecy, knowledge and tongues are done away with by the coming of the perfect. So that’s 3 of 6 are done away with when the perfect comes, but when the Lord returns 5 of 6 will have been done away with and only love last forever. Here is how I arrived at my conclusion.

            1 Corinthian 13
            13:8— Love never ends but the gifts of prophecy, knowledge and tongues will be rendered inoperative. Two of the three are turned off externally; the third one, tongues, dies out in and of itself. The implication would be that tongues will cease before the other two.
            13:9-10—that which (not He who) is perfect is going to cut off the gifts of prophecy and knowledge. The word for “perfect” is the word for complete, it’s talking about something that is mature or full that does away with the partial.
            13: 11— Paul compares moving from the partial to the perfect as maturing from childhood to adulthood. He does this in1Co 2:6-3:3 also talking about moving from a time when one is unspiritual to the point where they spiritual.
            13:12—Paul switches metaphors to contrast the results of the partial and the perfect as seeing face to face and seeing in a mirror dimly.
            13:13—faith, hope and love, remain after the perfect comes. Faith will not continue when we are face to face with the Lord, we will not need faith (2Co 5:6-8, Heb 11:1). Hope will not remain when we are face to face with the Lord because hope that is seen is not hope (Rom8:24). Love will remain forever.

            Whatever other people’s experience is with what they call tongues or prophecy or manifestations I don’t need it to be equipped for every good work (2 Tim 3:16-17). I believe the perfect, the mature has come and it’s the canon of scripture. I think the body of Christ is past the childhood stage.

            Thanks again for the reply

          • berlorac April 17, 2017 at 3:17 pm #

            Nannette, you said, [First of all the word ‘cessationist’ is NOT IN THE BIBLE. It absolutely is not taught.] This is your human reasoning and lack of Biblical knowledge. 1 Corinthians 13:8 clearly says that certain gifts will “cease.” It is from “cease” that “cessation” comes.

            From this lack of understanding, you then give a quaint description of faith as pertaining to sitting in a chair. I hope you can see that we “trust” chairs that have a modicum of evidence to sturdiness, but this is not the type of faith that saves. We are called to believe something that we haven’t seen. Saving faith has nothing to do with trusting something that, through human reasoning and experience, would lead us to surmise its trustworthiness. Abraham had faith in things that didn’t reason at all and were not in the realm of human experience.

            You then proceed to declare that those of us who believe the “doctrines of grace” are in a cult. You will excuse me if I find that comment laughable if it were not so sad. Please do your homework, study for yourself instead of relying on someone like Dave Hunt.

          • berlorac April 17, 2017 at 3:30 pm #

            I believe Marinus explained that Ephesians 2:8-9 state that faith is a gift. In that instance, Paul is referring to saving faith. In addition, the reference to the gift of faith in 1 Corinthians 12 shows that even that measure of faith in our walk is a gift. Nothing spiritual we have received is from, or of, us (1 Corinthians 4:7).

            No one seeks God. God justifies the ungodly. The one who does not seek God, the one who is ungodly, does not possess a faith of his own. It must be a gift.

            Someone earlier gave the example of the drowning man who calls for help. A bystander throws the drowning man a life saver and now it is up to the drowning man to use that device or not. It’s his choice. But I will say that this is not what I see in the Bible. Instead, I see that the man is already floundering at the bottom of the lake, barely alive. God knows that throwing a life saver is useless. God dives in and scoops up the man from the bottom of the lake. That’s love, that’s grace, that’s mercy.

            Now, it is true that it is not within the ability of man to understand the convergence of the sovereignty of God and the choices man makes, but this does not necessitate the lessening of God’s sovereign grace in saving for Himself a people.

          • Marinus L April 17, 2017 at 5:11 pm #

            Berlorac . Thank you, I couldn’t say it any better.

      • Leemajor April 14, 2017 at 7:31 am #

        As you can see in Thessalonians that Paul was talking to ” brothers “. He was talking to a group, in this case to a church. I see That God is choosing His church and not just an individual. You want to belong to that group of chosen ones or not. If you accept His free gift you belong to to that group.
        In the Paradijs Adam had a free will to choose Him or not, by obeying His command not to eat from the tree or to eat from that tree. God know the outcome and what a great effect this would have on humanity, but He still gave Adam the free will to choose to obey Him or not.

  13. nannette April 14, 2017 at 8:34 am #

    I guess if you hear it for yourselves then you can decide, and while listening note that all three of these men seem to be in agreement and seems Brandon is mocking people who complained. http://media.worldviewweekend.com/sites/default/files_wvw.com/audio_legacy/157cc1575e2d4566a4bebbe1b8df10b234d380aa8b4403a55eec9ef48df6569b.mp3

    • Marinus L April 19, 2017 at 6:36 pm #

      Nannette, about the mark of the beast. I agree with John MacArthur.

      • nannette April 19, 2017 at 7:00 pm #

        Marinus L, of course you agree with John Macarthur, he is your god. Just like the lady in the paint store believed her Jehovah Witness teachers in what I wrote on April 13, @ 3:58 pm. Never mind what the Word of God says! They can call themselves what ever they want, theologians, scholars, whatever they want, they are blaspheming Gods Word by calling Him a liar, just like Satan did to Eve in Genesis 3:4 when he told her she would not die if she ate of the tree that was forbidden by God. They lie! You cannot take the mark and still be saved, NO WAY, they are liars!

        • Marinus L April 19, 2017 at 7:18 pm #

          Nannette, my God saves till the end. Of course I will not be here. I will be with Him. He even saves during the tribulation.

        • Marinus L April 19, 2017 at 8:01 pm #

          Is taking the mark of the beast an unpardonable sin??
          We let The Bible explain, in Matthew 12:31,32 Therefore I say to you every sin and BLASPHEMY will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit.
          What does the blasphemy against the spirit. When Jesus healed the demon possessed man, that was blind and mute. In Matthew 12:22-24 Jesus was a used by the Pharisees that He cast out demons by Beelzebub, the ruler of demons. In other words they attributed His power to satan. Rather then the Holy Spirit. That is blasphemy against the spirit. All other sins are forgivable including the mark of the beast.
          And if that is not so, then all the sins in 1 Corinthians 6:9,10 are unforgivable, because God gave us a stern warning in verse 9 or do you not know the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God. But yet in verse 10 He said,” Such were some of you.

          In case you don’t know there will be more saved during the first part of trib than any time. Now you may think how is that possible, all Christians are taken up, there will not be one Christian to spread the gospel

          • rascott247 April 20, 2017 at 5:56 am #

            Marinus

            According to what you have said previously unbelievers are unbelievers because they have not first been regenerated in order that they can believe the gospel whether they held a bible in their hand or not. Only the elect will be saved. So are you now telling me that after God sends angels to preach the gospel (to people who can’t understand it) and warn of the consequences of taking the mark (Rev 14:6-13) that He will retract the judgment He has decreed and He will regenerate (or give faith to) some who have ignored His revelation (the revealing of Christ) and have taken the mark of the false Christ? Then what was the point of sending angels to preach the gospel? What was the point of the warning not to take the mark of the false Christ? Theatrics?

          • Marinus L April 20, 2017 at 9:44 am #

            Rascott, Do I believe that many that are chosen by God will enter into trib time? Yes I believe many to many to count, Revelation 7:9 A great multitude to many to count will be saved. And I believe if one is saved, he was chosen by God for salvation
            2 Thessalonians 2:13 God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation.
            All the multitude and the un-countable were chosen by God for salvation.

            I also said in my previous comments that ,” just because you are chosen by God , does not mean that we are automatically saved, we are still sinners. We have a Just and Righteous God, he will not let any sin unpunished, somebody has to pay the price for our sins, we know that Jesus is the spotless Lamb that paid our sin- debt in full. And because God has chosen us for salvation, we will not refuse Jesus’ offer of salvation ( this means as the chosen ones, we will never reject it but we will always accept his offer of salvation .)

            According to Revelation 19:20 an angel ( not angels ) fly through the air preaching the gospel, all this happens during the first part of trib. Why an angel? Because all Christians are raptured. We see that God saves during tribulation time, read what the Bible says in Revelation 7:13,14

            BTW did God retract what He said in 1Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the righteous will inherit the Kingdom of God. I think He did as explained in 1 Cor. 6:10
            If you don’t accept that taking the mark of the beast is a pardonable sin, then you will never agree what I said. That leads me to believe that you do not understand what is pardonable or unpardonable sins are. As I explained in my previous comment about
            Matthew12:31,32

            Please read my previous comments many questions are answered there. But then if you do not understand ” The doctrines of Grace” the way it should be understood, You will never,never agree in what the Bible has to say.
            And how can you even comment on what I have to say, if you have difficulty understanding the doctrines of grace.
            I don’t try to claim that I understand everything, but I am thankful to God that He allowed me to understand what I understand to this point. And I continue to ask him for more wisdom to understand what He has to say. It is all according to His will.

          • rascott247 April 20, 2017 at 10:15 am #

            Thanks for the reply Marinus. Just a couple more questions: How does being pre-chosen by a sovereign God not end in automatic salvation? You say all chosen will be saved? I get that; that’s sovereignty. Not automatic? That’s chance. Are you using the term automatic in place of not already saved? I am confused about that.

            In what way were the multitudes in the tribulation saved from the wrath Paul speaks of in 2 Thessalonians? How did the ones who took the mark by what Paul describes as “with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved”(2 Thes 2:10) —how do they get saved without receiving the truth? Sounds like deception will not be an excuse.

            I took Revelation 14:9 to say that there were 3 angels one preaching the everlasting gospel, one declaring Babylon has fallen, and a third proclaiming the consequences of taking the mark.

          • Marinus L April 20, 2017 at 1:51 pm #

            Rascott, If we are deceived, does that mean we can not repent and still be saved.
            There is only one unpardonable sin, blasphemy against the Spirit.
            There were many that were deceived at one point in their life, but they can fall on their knees before God, and repent and God will hold them in His loving arms.
            Eve was deceived by satan, I’m sure that she is in Heaven right now.
            God provided clothes made out of animal skin, a sign of animal sacrifice.
            This is a beautiful way of saying by God, I am a forgiving God.

          • rascott247 April 20, 2017 at 10:29 am #

            [But then if you do not understand” The doctrines of Grace” the way it should be understood, You will never, never agree in what the Bible has to say.]

            This is just as I have been saying; the “doctrines of Grace” understood first then what does the Bible say. Completely backwards!

          • rascott247 April 20, 2017 at 2:05 pm #

            Marinus

            The question isn’t if people today who are deceived can be saved. What does scripture tell us about those who are deceived and take the mark during the tribulation, which the Church is saved from?

            Revelation 14:9-11 9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

            2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness

            A plain reading of those texts tells me they will be deceived, they will take the mark, they will not believe the truth, they will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, they will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb and will not be saved. I will stick to the text.

          • Marinus L April 20, 2017 at 2:55 pm #

            Rascott. I know you left out about the angel described in Revelation 14:6 That he flies through the air proclaiming the gospel and said in verse 7 Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgement has come: worship Him who made the heavens and the earth and sea and springs of waters, this is the last warning before the second and third angel come. And many to numerous to count will be saved after hearing the angel. And the ones that rejected will go through what you described in 2Thess.
            What you described in 2 Thess.2:9-12 happens after the warning, because they still rejected the gospel proclaimed by the angel

          • Marinus L April 21, 2017 at 9:29 am #

            Rascott, I have to eat humble pie. I think that I was incorrect in the understandinding of the mark of the beast. After going over it again I noticed where I made a mistake. It is all about the time frame things accured, and I think some will make that mistake.

            I was always was of the understandinding that receiving of the MOB was at the beginning of the trib. ( Thats why i said that it is forgivable.)Which I think is incorrect. Rather receiving the MOB occurred after the angel preaching the Gospel. Because the people were hard hearted even after hearing the gospel preached by the angel.
            There is where I made the mistake, in misunderstanding the time frame things occurred. I come to the conclusion that taking the Mark will send you to eternal fire. And I have to disagree with JMac. You see Nannette he is not my god. I have my own brain to think, and at times it is wrong, no one is perfect, but we have to admit when we are wrong.
            All I can say right now is, forgive me!

            I have to retract every thing I said about the mark the beast.
            BUT, since this has nothing to do with the Doctrines of Grace.
            I STILL STAND ON THE DOCTRINES OF GRACE.

          • rascott247 April 21, 2017 at 9:38 am #

            Marinus
            We post comments to one another to discuss these things. It is the text of scripture that has convinced you of your error in thinking. I was not looking to serve you humble pie. I am glad we were able to look at the text together. You have done me no wrong as a brother. If you apply the same consistent interpretation and follow scripture alone (not doctrine then scripture) you will find that the so called “doctrines of grace” are not there. One step at a time.

        • Marinus L April 19, 2017 at 9:34 pm #

          Nannette, A few things we have mention, that ALL believers will be raptured, and unbelievers will be here on earth thru trib. That means that the unbelievers most likely never held a Bible in their hand and let alone know about the warning of the mark of the beast. According to Revelation 19:20 they were deceived of taking the mark of the beast, their action was an action of ignorance.but then they heard the gospel being preached by the angel that flew through the air. And after hearing many repented, I have to believe including the ones that took the mark of the beast.( forgivable sin) the ones that were saved in Rev. 14:6, are the ones described in Revelation 7:14
          And in Revelation 7:9 there were a great multitude that no one could count.
          In Revelation 7:13 One of the elders asked who are the ones arrayed in white robes, he answered Revelation 7:14 these are the ones that come out the great tribulation. That’s why I believe JMac, that’s the way I understood Phil Johnson’s explanation.

          At least I’m willing to explain why I believe this. I don’t follow the hum drum of the masses and repeat what they say. Explain what your position is.

          Please Nannette no nasty comments, you call yourself a Christian, if so then you are a nasty Christian.

          • nannette April 20, 2017 at 11:16 am #

            Marinus, don’t talk to me anymore, I’m done! You make no sense, I don’t want to understand it your mixed up theology, I don’t care. You just want attention because you think you are some great one in understanding. I’m done. And, by the way you called me a swine so don’t go and say that I’m a nasty Christian. Who do you think you are? Go away!!

  14. Leemajor April 18, 2017 at 7:26 am #

    Berlorac, yes God will dive in to scoops up the man, if this man is willing to accept.
    God will always be there no matter how deep we are sunk, if we are floating at the surface
    or laying at the bottom.
    He will always be there to reason with us.
    Isaiah 1:18, ” Come now, let us reason together “, says the Lord.
    In all these verses from 18 He reason, we sunk, no matter how deep, 19 we have to be willing and obedient, 20 we can refuse and be responsible for our own downfall.

    • Marinus L April 18, 2017 at 9:56 am #

      Leemajor. This is the reason there is so much confusion, we make stories about ” boy drowning in farmers pond,” or drowning in a pool. We even make stories where they compare God to a chair. When we want to make a story, we have to try to stay closely to what the Bible teaches.
      In this case when we talk about “dead” we mean spiritually dead. They may still be physically alive, but spiritually dead. And on their way to hell, because they rejected Jesus Christ. We can agree that we all are born sinners, because of Adam’s sin.
      And because of that we are a mass of sinners on our way to hell.

      But God promised His Son a Bride and the only place He can choose from is, from that mass of sinners, that are on their way to hell. Which He did. The ones He did not choose are still on their way to hell, NOT BECAUSE GOD PUT THEM THERE, but because THEY REJECTED JESUS CHRIST. And again it was not His choice, it is because it was their own choice, because they like their sin more than Jesus Christ.

      The ones He choose are still sinners. And because God is just and He will not let sin unpunished. His Son offered to pay the sin debt in full. And only a sinless person could pay our so debt in full, and Jesus Christ is that Person. Which He did on the cross.

      Now many will say that is unfair, He only choose some to be saved. Like John MacArthur says that when we talk about Salvation, it is not a matter of fairness. If we want God to be fair, then we all deserve hell. But He graciously saved some to be His Son’s Bride. And all the others are happily doing what they love to do sin, rather then Jesus Christ.

      If you are a Christian right now, Rejoice, He choose you to be part of His Son’s Bride.
      Don’t fight it. But Rejoice.

  15. Leemajor April 18, 2017 at 12:03 pm #

    Marinus, you have to understand that the boy drowning in a pool is just an simple example that we have a choice of accepting or rejecting.
    He wants ” no one ” to perish.
    The point is, is man accepting or rejecting ” His Savings Works “.
    Even you are claiming ” rejection “. Of course He can say, ” you are accepting Me “,
    How Holy and Mighty He is, He still invite us to reason with Him.
    By doing that He even comes down to our level, so we can reason with Him. We are not able to come to His level.
    I think it is very clear and simple.
    I know I have accepted His invitation and belong to His bride.

    • Marinus L April 18, 2017 at 10:09 pm #

      Leemmajor. I believe in Devine Sovereingty and man’s responsiblty. It is always God acts first and then we respond. Because the natural man is spiritually dead. He has to be quickened first ( made alive).
      Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive who were dead in trespasses and sin. NKJV

      • Marinus L April 18, 2017 at 10:21 pm #

        Leemajor. I add this that the natural man can’t just wake up one morning and say ,” I am going to get saved today, the only time that can happen is if God draws him.
        John 6:44 no man can come to Me, unless he is drawn by My Father.

  16. Leemajor April 18, 2017 at 12:34 pm #

    Marinus, the bride, the church, the choosen group out of the mass

    • Marinus L April 18, 2017 at 9:40 pm #

      Leemajor that’s right.

  17. lyn May 8, 2017 at 10:48 am #

    “. Yes people can receive the mark and still be saved. Like you said there is a difference between,” receiving the mark ,” or ,” worshipping the beast,”

    It matters little what man says, what does the Bible say? Rev 14:9  And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 
    Rev 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 
    Rev 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 

    Receiving the mark is a type of ‘allegiance’ to the beast. It goes hand in hand- you receive the mark and you worship the beast.

    Rev 13:16  And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 
    Rev 13:17  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 

    The bible never says you can receive the mark and still be saved. It’s quite clear, all who receive the mark will suffer God’s wrath – “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 
    Rev 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels”…

    • Manny1962 May 8, 2017 at 11:09 am #

      I don’t think people will be compelled to take the mark, it is my opinion that you’re given two choices, reject satan, the antichrist and starve, be in the run and depend on God for survival……. Or, take the mark, there by giving your allegiance to satan, the antichrist and survive within the system…….. I also don’t believe you’re name is written in The Book of Life if you take the mark. Revelation 14:11 makes it quite clear:

      Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, (who worship the beast and his image), and (whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.)

      I haven’t read anywhere in Revelation where the mark and worshipping the antichrist don’t go hand in hand. Taking the mark is a form of worship also.

      • lyn May 8, 2017 at 11:16 am #

        Manny,

        I agree. You take the mark because your allegiance is to the beast, it isn’t complicated.
        Yes, they go hand in hand. Nowhere does the bible state there’s a difference between receiving the mark and worshiping the beast. John MacArthur’s false teachings on this matter have caused much confusion. This really is a huge error on his part.

    • Marinus L May 8, 2017 at 12:43 pm #

      Lyn That means then, what you are saying, that nobody will be saved during trib-time.
      If that is so please explain Rev 7:14.

      • lyn May 8, 2017 at 12:50 pm #

        Where did I say no one was saved? Simple – I never said that. I quoted God’s word concerning receiving the mark and worshiping the beast.
        Again, what does the bible say about the mark? That is all that matters – read the verses I gave again and contemplate them.

        Who comes out of the great tribulation? The saints of God. Those of us who are alive during this time will suffer greatly, the bible clearly teaches that.

        • Marinus L May 8, 2017 at 1:08 pm #

          Lyn. Didn’t you say , all who receive the mark will suffer God’s wrath??
          But the Bible says in Rev. 13:16 And he causes ALL………to receive the mark………….
          That means every soul that enters tribulation. That means that ALL receives the MOB.
          According to you they are ALL doomed.

          • lyn May 8, 2017 at 1:25 pm #

            I quoted what God said, so it wasn’t my words.

            All who receive the mark will suffer wrath, according to God’s own word. Now, does that mean every person alive at that time? No- read the verse you quoted from Rev. 7:14. The elect of God will go through this horrific tribulation and suffer and be martyred. So, ‘all’ does not mean every single person. All means those who take the mark, that specific group. All does not always mean every single person, it refers to a select group of people [Rev. 13:16], rich or poor [financial status is irrelevant] small or great [again the status of one’s ‘importance’ is irrelevant] free and slave [ whether you are the oppressor or the one being oppressed]. Every person from these types/classes of people will receive the mark. Those who take this mark prove they are not the elect of God, rather, they belong to their father, the devil.

          • Marinus L May 8, 2017 at 2:54 pm #

            Lyn. It is difficult to debate a person, that says that the bible does not mean what it says. You are trying to explain away what the word ALL means.
            You are trying to explain it away, and by trying to do this, you exactly say the same what I said, you quoted,” Every person from these types/classes of people WILL RECEIVE THE MARK.” That means every one, I don’t think you will find one that does not belong to at least one of these types/classes.

          • Marinus L May 9, 2017 at 11:43 am #

            Lyn. I never said that there will no terrible times ahead for the Christian, because Jesus said so. Not one believer will go thru the trib time. The unbelievers will go through all this. But I also think that they will just continue their habits and lifestyle right into tribulation time. I also don’t think that from day one or even two, or a week, or even a month they will all of a sudden to God. But in the meantime they go hungry, thirsty they want to continue their lifestyle, they need money to buy their beer. But they are told you have to have the mark of the beast to do all these thing. What do you think they will do, they were told you have to receive the mark.they gladly received the mark because they are hungry and thirsty. They never read the bible they will not have known about the mark.remember they are still depraved, they still do not seek for God.(Rom. 3:10-12). They still can not understand spiritual things.( 1Cor. 2:14 ) and they are still as described in ( Rom. 8:7 ) they are in desperate need to hear the Gospel. God send an angel to preach to them ( Rev. 14:6,7), the two witnesses, 144,000. Their preaching must have been so powerful that many were saved, the bible said to numerous to count, there were more saved during this time than any time before. Even after receiving the mark and hearing and believing the gospel they were saved. They refuse to worship the beast, because of their refusal they were killed. These are the saints described in ( Rev. 7:14 )

            In Rev. 14:9 and 14:11 it is mentioned,” Who worship the beast and his image, and who receives the mark. It sound to me these are two separate things, worship the beast and receive the mark.

            BTW. Most of the comments I read are doom and gloom. Yes there will be hard times in store for the Christians, because Jesus said so, but there is nothing that we could not handle. We Christians will be raptured. But hardly anybody mentions that their is hope for the lost sheep. Rev. 14:6,7 and Jesus will continue to search for the ones that are given to Him by the Father. Everybody that is written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will be found and i cant wait until the last one is found. So I want to spend my time worshipping and praising God. I don’t care what satan will do or is doing. Jesus will protect His sheep.

          • rascott247 May 8, 2017 at 3:38 pm #

            Marinus
            You are being hypocritical in your definition of “all” considering you don’t take the second “all” in Romans 5:18 to really mean “all” because you think that faith is the free gift and well not all men have faith. You don’t take “all” to mean “all” in 1Timothy 4:10 because you don’t believe Christ is Savior of all men nor do you take “whole world” to mean “whole world” in 1John 2:2. If you did you would chuck Limited Atonement out the window.

            You explain away “all” as well but at least the context of Rev 13 and 20 (some are beheaded for not taking the mark so not “all” do) allows for “all” to mean “both great and small, rich and poor, slave and free”.

          • lyn May 9, 2017 at 12:15 am #

            Good points Manny.

            Again, it cannot mean every person will take the mark. Look into Revelation 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands’ First, take note, ‘a great multitude’ too many to count. Next, it distinguishes that this multitude has come from all walks of life, from every part of the globe, from ‘all’ nations. Does that mean every person on the earth at this time? No, it does not.
            Now, go down to verse 14, “These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” This multitude of believers went through great tribulation; what did they suffer? Look at verse 16, “They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.”
            As brother Manny stated, during this horrific time on earth, believers will starve, they will be in dire agony of thirsting, and the elements will bear down on them.

            One last point, if ‘all’ are to receive the mark, then where did the believers, the great multitude from every part of the globe, where did they come from?

            Marinus said “Lyn. Didn’t you say , all who receive the mark will suffer God’s wrath??
            But the Bible says in Rev. 13:16 And he causes ALL………to receive the mark………….
            That means every soul that enters tribulation. That means that ALL receives the MOB.
            According to you they are ALL doomed.”

            The text does NOT say that ‘every soul that enters tribulation, that means all receives the MOB’. Nor did I say every person on the earth at that time are doomed. This is a poor eisegesis of the text.

            Look at ‘all’ in Rev. 13:16, it’s from the Greek word ‘pas’ and is defined as ‘all, the whole, every kind of’. In order to know which definition is correct, you have to look at the context of the chapter. You have to go back a few verses, to verse 8, “Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” All refers to a particular group of people – those whose names are not written in the Lamb’s book of life. So, there are people alive at this time that ARE written in His book and that will NOT take the mark. As a result, they suffer, as is pointed out in Revelation 7.

  18. Manny1962 May 8, 2017 at 1:00 pm #

    Many will survive as they scavange for food, always on the run, they will run from place to place, the countryside……..trying to keep away from the forces of the antichrist, fortunately for the few, God will cut those days short to only seven years, those will go in to populate the kingdom. Most will be martyred, losing their heads for their testimony of God, and shunning the mark. Plain reading of the text supports death connected with the mark.

  19. Manny1962 May 9, 2017 at 9:01 am #

    Or why doesn’t everyone just take the mark, live perfectly fine under the system, and then just repent at the end! No harm, no foul! It makes no sense logically. The whole premise of JMacs argument according to Phil Johnson is: “The point John MacArthur was making is about the extremes to which God’s grace will reach in order to seek and save a sinner.”

    https://www.gty.org/library/blog/B131030

    I’m still confused if JMac meant that as theoretical scenario or an outright statement, if outright, then why just not take the mark and be at ease, then repent later? It all doesn’t make sense to me. I would have been better to say, do not take the mark period. It may sound over dramatic, but anyone who stays behind and comes across the statement might be tempted to take it to ease his situation.

    • lyn May 9, 2017 at 9:35 am #

      JMac isn’t clear on his erroneous teaching, and this isn’t the first time I have seen him try to backpeddle or justify a wrong teaching. He isn’t someone I listen to or follow.

      Again, good points Manny. Yes, why not take the mark, continue to live as usual, then repent? Here’s why—–because the bible warns against those who do receive the mark… They will face God’s wrath.

      We must always be good bereans and examine what is being taught, regardless of whether the preacher is famous or not. The first end time warning Christ our Lord gave to His disciples was this, ‘take heed no man deceive you’

      • Manny1962 May 9, 2017 at 11:14 am #

        Amen! I can see why all the confusion, I read the blog posted above, it’s confusing at best.

      • Marinus L May 9, 2017 at 11:54 am #

        Hey lyn I can put together verses and make it say what I think it should say like you do. You act like you are making a patch work quilt. You’re confusing me. Stay on point.

        • lyn May 9, 2017 at 12:24 pm #

          Marinus,

          Apparently you refuse to read the bible in it’s context. You believe ‘all’ means every person, even though you’ve been shown there is a great multitude in heaven that did NOT take the mark and that came through the great tribulation, suffering profusely for their allegiance to Christ. Remember this, scripture interprets scripture. You can make false accusations all day long, in the end, are you seeking God for right wisdom and understanding or are you following the false teachings of man?

          You say ” Not one believer will go thru the trib time. The unbelievers will go through all this.” – this erroneous belief comes from holding to a ‘pre-trib’ rapture, which is another false teaching. I’ve learned that those who hold to this view aren’t interested in searching out the truth found in God’s word. When pressed, they simply falsely accuse, as you have done by stating that I am ‘putting verses together’. Again, scripture interprets scripture.
          I will ask you this, where did the multitude of saints come from that go through the great tribulation? If you say they were saved AFTER the church is ‘raptured’, then I must press you for a text from Holy Writ that states such. Perhaps that isn’t your view; so explain how there is a great number in heaven after this great tribulation – where did they come from? Who suffers hunger, heat, thirst as told in Revelation 7:16? Where did the people spoken of in Revelation 7:14 come from?

          Lastly, take note of this vital text……
          Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years”

          Your view is false Marinus. It is clear that believers will indeed go through the great tribulation. How sad is it that men like JMac are NOT preparing them for this horrific time?

          “Take heed that no man deceive you” – Matthew 24:4

          • Marinus L May 9, 2017 at 1:29 pm #

            Lyn That says it all. We will never agree. Yes I believe in pre-trib. You are one of the Zac Poonen followers. He confuses people by the second coming and the rapture. I believe that God will rapture His church before the rapture.

  20. Marinus L May 9, 2017 at 1:31 pm #

    Before tribulation .

    • Lyn May 10, 2017 at 12:04 am #

      I have never listened to zac poonen and have no idea who he is.

      It’s sad that professing Christians reject the plain truth found in God’s word. I noticed you never addressed any of my questions. I will present them again – “I will ask you this, where did the multitude of saints come from that go through the great tribulation? If you say they were saved AFTER the church is ‘raptured’, then I must press you for a text from Holy Writ that states such. Perhaps that isn’t your view; so explain how there is a great number in heaven after this great tribulation – where did they come from? Who suffers hunger, heat, thirst as told in Revelation 7:16? Where did the people spoken of in Revelation 7:14 come from?

      Lastly, take note of this vital text……
      Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years”

      To say believers will not go through the great tribulation means you have to rip multiple verses out of your bible, or do as you’ve done…ignore them.

      All I ask is for biblical proof from you showing the verses I’ve given are wrong, according to your view. I see Rascott has given his opinion, “They are told/warned that to take mark of the beast is to seal their fate. Grace does run out.”

      Where in the bible does it say you can take this mark and NOT face God’s wrath? Opinions are not the same as God’s truth being presented to support that opinion.

      • rascott247 May 10, 2017 at 12:19 am #

        [They are told/warned that to take mark of the beast is to seal their fate. Grace does run out] Is reference to Rev 14:9-11. [Where in the bible does it say you can take this mark and NOT face God’s wrath?] Nowhere!

        I believe a pre-trib rapture best fits the evidence form scripture.
        • There will be a future earthly kingdom ruled by Christ from the throne of David in Jerusalem (Isa 9:7, Jer 3:17, Zech 6:13, Matt 19:28, Rev 3:21; 20:1-9)
        • There are distinctions between Israel, the nations and the church (Rom 9:1-5; 11:11-26, 1Cor 10:32, Rev 7:4-8; 12:1-6).
        • The Church was future according to Matt 16:18 and is made up of both Jews and Gentiles who come to faith in Jesus Christ and have been baptized into one Body; not the baptism of John but the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5; 11:15-16, Col 1:18,1Cor 12:13).The Church was a mystery not known by previous revelation (Eph 3:1-14; 5:32, Col 1:24-27) you will find no hint of Jew and gentile united into the Body of Christ in the OT. Likewise you will find no hint that this Body will be raptured in the OT.
        • Israel and the nations are destined for purifying wrath and vengeance; the Church is not (Duet 30:1-7, Ezek 20:33-44, Dan 9:24-27, 1 Thes 1:9-10; 5:9).
        • The repentance of national Israel is a prerequisite for the second coming (Lev 26:42-44, Jer 3:11-18, Zec 12:10, Hos 5:15, Matt 23:37-39, Rom 10).
        • There are imminence passages that are sign-less(rapture)(1Thes 1:9-10, 1Cor 1:7, Titus 2:13, 1Jn 3:2-3, Rev 3:11; 22:7 &12 & 20, Heb 10:37, Jam 5:7-8) there are passages with precursors (return)(Dan 7:23-28; 9:27, Matt 24:5-35, 2Thes 2:3-12, Rev 6-19).
        • The rapture was a mystery and is taught as comfort to the Church(1Cor 15:51,1 Thes 4:13-18, Rev 3:10); the DOL which includes Christ’s return was not a mystery (DOL all through the OT).
        • Daniels 70th/7 is yet future and all 7 of those remaining years contain the wrath of the Lamb known as the Day of the Lord. Birth pangs describe the DOL. Birth pangs begin before the Abomination of Desolation (mid-trib) . For features of God’s wrath—Lev 26:14-46, Deut 28:15-25, Jer 24:9 compare with Rev 6.
        • The Church was not present for the first 69/7s why is it present for the 70th/7?
        • The return of Jesus is at the end of the Great Tribulation for the purpose of saving flesh (Matt 24:22). The Church is not delivered in flesh (1Cor 15:50-53). Sheep and Goats are judged in the flesh (Matt 25:31-34).
        • There is a pattern of judgment/salvation in scripture where the righteous are removed prior to the wrath of the judgment being poured out (Noah, Lott).
        • The Jewish wedding tradition of arrangement, then preparation, then fetching the bride, then ceremony then wedding feast, fits very well with a pre-trib rapture.

        BOOK OF REVELATION:
        • The word Church is used twenty times in Revelation, and nineteen of these references are found in the first three chapters (things that are section).
        • The Church is on earth in Rev 3 and in heaven during Rev 4 and 5.
        • 24 elders and others are given crowns and white robes and are granted to sit on thrones in Rev 4and 5. This certainly appears to be the Bema Seat. When rewards are given to individuals of a group the whole group must be present and their mission completed in order to determine their worthiness. You don’t give tournament trophies until the contest has been completed.
        • In Rev 5 the Lamb is the only One found worthy to take the scroll. Christ executes His throne rights (King of Kings) by breaking the seals (all 7). This is the wrath of the Lamb (all 7 seals).
        • The first resurrection (to life) takes place in stages (rapture, second coming -1Cor 15:23) and the second resurrection (to death) and Great White Throne judgment takes place 1000 yrs after (Rev 20:7-15). Again, those who come out of the tribulation are resurrected after Christ returns (Rev 20:4-6) they are not raptured from the living; they are not caught up to meet the Lord.

        THESSALONIANS:
        • 1 Thes 4:13-18: Paul is informing them about, comforting them with the rapture. Those who died will be raised before the living but all in Christ will be gathered to Him in the air (new info).
        • 1 Thes 5:1-10: They are not ignorant of the DOL (old info). Paul has no need to tell them anything about it except that they will not be part of it (new info). Paul did informed them of the suddenness with which the DOL comes (as a thief) . Paul contrast “they” with “you” and darkness and light; day and night. Again the comfort is in the contrast between they (appointed to wrath) and you (not appointed to wrath -DOL).
        • 1 Thes 5:3; Paul links sudden destruction as labor pangs with the DOL as Jesus did in Matt 24:8 with the first half of the tribulation.
        • 2 Thes 2:1-2: The gathering to Him and the DOL; two different events. Those at Thessalonica were distressed by false teaching which claimed that the suffering they currently experienced was due to the DOL.
        • 2 Thes 2:3-5: The issue Paul addresses is the impossibility that the DOL had come and he reminds them of the signs that the DOL has begun (apostasy and revealing of the man of sin). Paul is not teaching that the rapture can’t happen until Antichrist is revealed; rather, he teaches that the DOL cannot be present because the “apostasy” had not happened and the Antichrist has yet to be revealed. Paul does not teach that the Antichrist is revealed at the time he sets himself in the temple, but at the time the restrainer is removed (2Th 2:7- 8).
        • All indications are that those in Thessalonica expected to be raptured before the tribulation. If Paul had taught that they would have to endure the tribulation before Christ’s coming, then why would they have been shaken and afraid by a letter telling them that the DOL had come? They should have been excited knowing what Paul taught was coming true. They would have faced the tribulation with hope and endurance knowing that the coming of the Lord was less than 7 years away. But the letter they received didn’t square with what Paul had previously taught them. Being told they were already in the tribulation caught them off guard; they panicked. Why? If the tribulation has to come first then it is what we should look to for hope that we will be gathered to Christ relatively shortly after it starts. They were not looking to being in the DOL.

        Church and Government
        • The gates of hell –Satan—will not prevail against the church (Matt. 16:17-18). The Anti-Christ is given power to overcome (prevail against) Saints (Rev 13:7).
        • Romans 13:1 and 1Tim 2:1-2 tell the Church to be subject to and pray for authorities and kings. I highly doubt Paul had in mind that the Body of Christ is to be subject to and pray for the satanic Anti-Christ and his government.

        • lyn May 10, 2017 at 12:54 am #

          This is nothing more than verses given with a pre-trib spin put on them.
          “All indications are that those in Thessalonica expected to be raptured before the tribulation. ” Nowhere does any text imply this. There was confusion over those who’d already died, what would happen when the Lord returned. 1Th 4:13  “But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.” This is what perplexed them, not some secret rapture.

          The pre-trib view will leave multitudes unprepared for the horrors that are about to take place.
          The beast will overpower the saints Rev 13:7  And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 

          The saints, the people of God, will suffer horrifically during this time. May God prepare those who will go through this great tribulation.

          As for the pre-trib view, I do not adhere to it at all. For those who do, that is your decision. I will not change your mind and you certainly won’t change mine.

          May God’s blessings be upon His people.

  21. rascott247 May 9, 2017 at 1:32 pm #

    Marinus
    Believers will not enter into the tribulation, the Church is not appointed to wrath but to obtain (future) salvation 1Thess5:9. The rapture will provide this salvation from wrath. Those who remain are unbelievers and not part of the Body of Christ. The Gospel is preached to them, some will believe others will not but all are in this time of wrath being poured out on earth. They are told/warned that to take mark of the beast is to seal their fate. Grace does run out. Think of those caught in the flood when it was too late to enter the ark. God’s judgment does not come without warning.

    Only believers from Pentecost when Spirit baptism began until the rapture make up the Body of Christ. The rapture is the Body’s “blessed hope” and one needs to believe in Christ now to experience the blessed hope. The multitudes who come out of the tribulation are people who come to faith during the tribulation not before. Scripture tells us they will not receive the mark.

    • berlorac May 9, 2017 at 3:19 pm #

      RS, well said. You’ve summed it up nicely. Thank you, brother!

      • rascott247 May 9, 2017 at 3:55 pm #

        Thank you B, it is always good to hear from you.
        Maranatha!

    • Marinus L May 9, 2017 at 10:44 pm #

      Thanks rascott, understand it more after reading Revelation chapter 19. Learning everyday.

      • rascott247 May 9, 2017 at 10:57 pm #

        Amen Marinus! Learning from God’s word is wonderful. Conversations leading us to examine God’s word are as well. I believe we will be learning for all eternity.

    • lyn May 10, 2017 at 1:36 am #

      You contradict yourself rascott, you claim “Only believers from Pentecost when Spirit baptism began until the rapture make up the Body of Christ.” Then, you claim “The multitudes who come out of the tribulation are people who come to faith during the tribulation not before. ” IF the church is ‘raptured’ out before the great tribulation, those who are saved during the great tribulation, are they not a part of the body of Christ, according to your view? That makes no sense. Does Christ have multiple bodies? Are some saved but excluded from being the body of Christ?

      Then you say “The multitudes who come out of the tribulation are people who come to faith during the tribulation not before. ” So which is it? Are those who are saved after this secret rapture a part of Christ’s body or not? If not, then explain who the great multitude that have come through the great tribulation are {Rev. 7:14} Are they not considered the body of Christ as well?

      Again, this seems to be mere speculation on your part. Is there scriptural support to back your view concerning the time frame of when the body of Christ ceases to be His body and why believers alive during the great tribulation are not considered a part of His body?

      This is why I do not adhere to any certain end time ‘camp’ view – they all have huge holes in what they say they believe. Then a lot of tap dancing is done to cover up those holes.

      • rascott247 May 10, 2017 at 1:49 am #

        No contradiction. Only believers from Pentecost til the rapture are the Body of Christ. This would exclude OT Saints including John the Baptist who calls himself a friend of the bridegroom (not part of the bride John 3:29). Tribulation Saints are part of the nations or Israel they are not part of the Church. To be part of the Church one needs be baptized into the body of Christ which began on Pentecost. The guest at the wedding feast are not the bride but are guest. They are believers (saints) but do not belong to the Body of Christ which is not destined for wrath but to obtain salvation from wrath! The Body of Christ will have their works judged at the Bema seat to determine kingdom and eternal rewards. The Bema must take place when the entire Body is resurrected. Tribulation saints who are beheaded are resurrected after Christ returns to earth not before. Tribulation Saints that survive go into the Kingdom in natural bodies to repopulate the earth. That is why flesh must be saved! The Church is not saved in the flesh!

        • rascott247 May 10, 2017 at 2:08 am #

          The Church is the Body of Christ (Col 1:18) created in Him by reconciling Jew and gentile to God through the cross (Eph 2:14-18). We are placed in the Body by baptism of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12:13). Where there is no HS baptism there is no Body. HS baptism was future to Acts1:5. In Acts 11:15-17 Peter equates what happened to Cornelius (gentile) and his household and to what happened on Pentecost i.e. HS baptism.

          Ekklēsia means assembly it does not always refer to the Body of Christ. The ekklēsia in the wilderness was not Jew and gentile united together and seated with Christ at the right hand of the Father. The ekklēsia in the wilderness were not baptized into the Body of Christ they were baptized into Moses (1Cor 10:2). Baptism means immersed implying identification with. There are many baptisms in scripture (most dry some wet).

          In Matt 16:18 the Church is spoken of as future tense “will build”. In Matt 18 Jesus is training the Apostles who are the foundation of the Church with Christ as the foundation stone (Eph 2:20).

      • rascott247 May 10, 2017 at 2:23 am #

        BTW you do adhere to an end time view; you have been expressing it on this thread.
        It would be a shame to stand before Christ and tell Him we had no view of His plan for history that He describes throughout scripture. You are free to your view for sure but I am very comfortable that I have supported mine with scripture. Is my view perfect? No! But it is what makes sense to me through inductive study not because of a presupposed theology.

  22. lyn May 10, 2017 at 12:16 am #

    “Believers will not enter into the tribulation, the Church is not appointed to wrath but to obtain (future) salvation” So, can someone tell us who this is in Revelation 7:14, ” And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” Who, other than believers, have been washed in the blood of the Lamb?

    Here lies the confusion, you all think this is God’s wrath being poured out at this time – – – it isn’t. Read this, from Rev 6:9  “And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held”
    Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 
    Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 
    Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 
    Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 
    Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 
    Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    Take note, the wrath of the Lamb doesn’t take place until the sixth seal is opened. What believers face at this time is the wrath, so to speak, of the beast.  

  23. lyn May 10, 2017 at 12:26 am #

    “The multitudes who come out of the tribulation are people who come to faith during the tribulation not before.” — where is scripture that teaches this? Where does the bible specifically state these believers were non-believers before the great tribulation?
    This statement seems to be mere speculation, nothing more.

  24. lyn May 10, 2017 at 10:17 am #

    I never stated I do not have an end time view, I do. My view comes from the bible and not one of the man made camps like pre trib, pre mil, a mil, or preterist. I can find both good and bad in all of those camps. With that said, I cannot adhere to any certain one because of the errors each one teaches.

    May the Lord’s blessings be upon His people

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