Today Brandon Hatmaker came out swinging against those who’ve raised alarm at his famous wife Jen Hatmaker’s public stance last week on homosexual marriage, in which she stated that a committed marriage between two people of the same sex was “holy” before God.
Maybe she didn’t mean it? Nope. Brandon put any vague doubts to rest with his firm statement this afternoon, titled, “Where I stand on LGBTQ” on his Facebook page:
Brandon Hatmaker
To be clear…
Jen and I are 100% on the same page regarding her recent interview about our love and hope for the LGBTQ community. This is a journey we have been on together. We both believe a same-sex marriage, as a life-long monogamous commitment, can be holy before God.
He explained that his “shift” was the result of studying Scripture and prayer:
Every verse in the bible that is used to condemn a “homosexual” act is written in the context of rape, prostitution, idolatry, pederasty, military dominance, an affair, or adultery. It was always a destructive act. It was always a sin committed against a person. And each type of sexual interaction listed was an abuse of God’s gift of sex and completely against His dream for marriage to be a lifelong commitment of two individuals increasingly and completely giving themselves to one another as Christ did for the church.
But not one of these scriptures was written in the context of marriage or civil union (which simply did not exist at this time). Each act mentioned in the bible was sin, no doubt. In context, we believe the same today. Just like heterosexual sex outside of marriage is sin for obvious reasons, whether consensual or not, we still believe homosexual sex outside of marriage is a sin.
Take heart, our shift is not a departure from our everlasting love, dependency, and belief in the authority and infallibility of scripture. In fact, this is the exact opposite to a departure. We’ve always believed that the bible holds up.
On her Facebook Page, Jen lamented the pain she was in over “hateful” responses from those who would question her orthodoxy.
“I’m not here to defend or explain right now. I have very open hands here. I have nothing to protect, nothing worth losing that I am not afraid to lose…And I hold those of you who are angry or shocked or confused with me this week very tenderly, too. I love you and I am here in the tension, committed to our little community and to all these sisters of mine”
Like her husband, Jen warned her readers that the LGBTQ readers are watching the comments.
At this writing, nearly 19 thousand readers reacted and/or responded. And the most heartbreaking element of this entire tragedy is the Great Falling Away we’re seeing in the comments sections of both Jen’s and Brandon’s posts, as professing Christians are applauding this departure from God’s Word, while maintaining that it’s exactly what God would want. In other words, this celebrity power couple is calling good evil, and evil good. And their thousands of readers are nodding their doomed heads in agreement, as they, too, are making the “shift” to follow the Hatmakers on their merry way to apostasy.
Read Brandon and Jen Hatmaker’s full statements here:
As you read this and consider responding, please also remember that this is not a private conversation between us. There are many who are reading this who do not hold your view on God, religion, politics, or your view on LGBTQ. Please be respectful and kind in your comments. There is a real human on the other end of every Facebook post and tweet that God loves just as much as He loves you.
While there have been many who have responded with personal attacks and unfair generalizations, I want to thank everyone who has privately and publically encouraged us (even those who disagree) with the love of Christ. You know our hearts. You know our commitment to God’s Word. You know our commitment to Jesus and to loving people. Thank you for fighting for the Kingdom. God is able. He is still in control.
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To be clear…
Jen and I are 100% on the same page regarding her recent interview about our love and hope for the LGBTQ community. This is a journey we have been on together. We both believe a same-sex marriage, as a life-long monogamous commitment, can be holy before God.
While this is not meant to be a complete and final explanation, let me share with you a little about our journey and how we got here:
The last 10 years of our ministry we’ve tried our best to learn what it means to “love mercy and seek justice”. In order to do this, we’ve learned we must first identify pain and suffering that we might normally miss. We’ve seen it among the poor, among the orphan, among those affected by unexplainable natural disasters, and among the sick. We’ve seen it in everyday people like you who have faced a personal crisis, experienced oppression, depression, racism, sexism, have loved ones dying, teenagers off the rails, marriages in shambles, and private struggles no one else knows about.
We’ve seen so much pain among the LGBTQ community: Suicidal teenagers. Divided families. Split churches. So. Much. Pain.
That said, Jen and I have attempted in the past several years simply to lead the church to a better posture towards the LGBTQ community. Although we held a traditional view at the time, we have always felt convicted to lead with a concern for those on the outside who might feel hopeless, more than we have with a concern for our inside critics.
Because of this, we have been consistently criticized, challenged, pressed, bullied, and pushed to make a clear stance on where we land on the topic. As the criticism grew louder, more demanding, and more confusing to those we partner with, serve with, represent, and love, we felt obligated to take a new and hard look inward to be able to explain our position with love.
In doing so, we realized that while we had heard sermons listing homosexuality as a clear sin, and we had read all the verses referenced, that we had personally neglected to do the hard work of faithfully studying the scriptures as we typically would.
So we committed to a season of study and prayer.
We started with scripture (Again, please assume a ton of prayer). For more than a year we studied every version of every verse in the bible that appeared to discuss “homosexuality”. We studied the Greek. We studied the Hebrew. We read every commentary we could find related specifically to the related passages.
As we would for any topic seeking truth, we did our best to look at each verse with fresh eyes. We applied all the rules to faithfully and ethically interpret scripture: We considered the type of literature, the context in which each was written, what other scriptures say about it giving clues to God’s intent, and viewed each through the lens of the Gospel.
The historical view is that scripture is clear on homosexuality. What we found is that it’s not as simple as traditionally taught.
I have a journal completely full of notes where I can walk through each passage and reference that could explain our shift, but the most relevant and critical common thread we found in scripture was this:
Every verse in the bible that is used to condemn a “homosexual” act is written in the context of rape, prostitution, idolatry, pederasty, military dominance, an affair, or adultery. It was always a destructive act. It was always a sin committed against a person. And each type of sexual interaction listed was an abuse of God’s gift of sex and completely against His dream for marriage to be a lifelong commitment of two individuals increasingly and completely giving themselves to one another as Christ did for the church.
But not one of these scriptures was written in the context of marriage or civil union (which simply did not exist at this time). Each act mentioned in the bible was sin, no doubt. In context, we believe the same today. Just like heterosexual sex outside of marriage is sin for obvious reasons, whether consensual or not, we still believe homosexual sex outside of marriage is a sin.
Take heart, our shift is not a departure from our everlasting love, dependency, and belief in the authority and infallibility of scripture. In fact, this is the exact opposite to a departure. We’ve always believed that the bible holds up. No matter our question, fear, concern, or confusion, we can press into the bible and we will find the truth. It has held for thousand of years without blemish. Still does today.
In the same way, we then studied what the Bible says about marriage. Every verse. We studied what scripture describes as God’s original design, God’s gift of sex and procreation, and God’s intent for the relationship. We considered it through the lens of God’s redemptive plan from Genesis to Revelation. We viewed it as the most disciple-making relationship ever dreamed where two individuals learn to increasingly give themselves wholly to each other as Christ did the church. We dug deep into considering which of the bible’s teaching on marriage was a description of whatever the current state of marriage was at the time each book was written and which of the bible’s teaching was a prescription for how marriage should be.
Bottom line, we don’t believe a committed life-long monogamous same-sex marriage violates anything seen in scripture about God’s hopes for the marriage relationship.
The conversation about God’s dream for marriage is so incredibly nuanced. I’m not trying to define it in one quick post, There’s more to say about this, only to give you an insight to the many facets of our journey.
From there we began to prayerfully meet with people to discuss what we were learning. We engaged in hours of conversations with theologians, bishops, pastors, authors, and church leaders individually and through community on both sides of the argument.
While some people have certainly shifted their view of scripture, we’ve found that the majority of affirming Christians have not “abandoned” the bible in order to shift their thinking, as many accuse. In fact, there are many brilliant theologians and authors like, David Gushee, who was known for decades as one of America’s leading evangelical ethicists, who have shifted their view on this after years of holding a traditional view.
We found that there are a ton of people asking questions privately, praying, and studying but are fearful to ask questions publically for fear of being judged or ostracized. So many of you are on this journey as well.
We read numerous books from both affirming and non-affirming authors (Specifically those who hold scripture as their starting point). Can You Be Gay and Christian by Michael Brown (Non-affirming), People to be Loved by Preston Sprinkle (Non-affirming), Space at the Table by Brad & Drew Harper (Non-affirming but sympathetic), Changing our Mind by David Gushee (Affirming), The Bible’s Yes to Same Sex Marriage by Mark Achtemeier (Affirming), Unclobber by Colby Martin (Affirming), among others. Every chapter in each book has pages underlined, was cross referenced, noted, and read over and over again.
We even studied some historical texts that give cultural context to scripture. We reviewed biological research and findings. We researched the claims behind the Kinsey Scale which gives insight to our sexuality (Which if you haven’t researched you should, It makes sense of why one person’s journey does not match another person’s journey or to speak authoritatively as a one-size fits all solution).
We did some heavy lifting. But we didn’t do it and I didn’t write this to try and change YOUR mind. That is the work of the Holy Spirit.
But I did write this to challenge each of you who have neglected the hard work of study, reading, discussion, and prayer to invite the Spirit to lead you. Don’t study to be right, study to find the truth. You have nothing to fear, trust that God will lead you. But wherever you land, don’t be ignorant and uninformed about it.
Being informed invites the Spirit to lead, reduces our defensiveness, and gives us the confidence to love better.
Listen, regardless of what we think, the majority of our churches are not safe places for LGBTQ. Every Sunday, people searching for hope and community sit in confusion, condemnation, private pain, and the fear of being singled out, publicly humiliated, and being rejected. The exact opposite of what we all hope for.
Regardless of where you stand or eventually land, our belief is that the church can do so much better in handling this conversation and that we can do so much better in how we treat one another along the way.
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” – John 13:34-35
A couple of quick thoughts on all these tender things:
1. First, regardless of what you see from strangers on the internet, our real friends and ministry partners and colleagues and fellow pastors have been across the board, carte blanche, by the dozens and dozens and dozens…kind and good to Brandon and I this week. Every one of them. We can’t even keep up with it. So know that regardless of headlines, we have very much experienced a faithful witness to Jesus through our friends in our real life this week. They give the church a beautiful name worthy of its source.
2. I’m not here to defend or explain right now. I have very open hands here. I have nothing to protect, nothing worth losing that I am not afraid to lose. I have zero agenda for myself. I don’t feel self-protective or defensive or scared or angry. I am neither trying to gain applause or start a war. Some people are throwing parades and some are burning books, but I am not motivated by either; I’m neither overly encouraged or overly discouraged. If you believe the hype, you have to also believe the hate, and neither is fully true. Some are certain I am after “the approval of people,” but here is the truth: I don’t love the approval of people, but I do love people. I love them because Jesus’ love for us is so insane and big and outside our templates and it reaches and reaches and reaches past our comforts to draw people to Him, and He does this with or without our permissions and sanctions and rules and hierarchies, and He has done it for all of time and will continue to do it for all of time. We are standing outside the city gates with people He asked us to stand with, and that is the beginning and end of it.
3. The time will come to discuss and talk about this together, but know this: we deeply, sincerely, with our minds and hearts both engaged, including perspectives all along the spectrum, in deep discussions with people we trust and respect, with prayer and careful study and deliberation moved into this space. We wrestled with and through Scripture, not around it. Our view of the Word is still very high, as is it for the hundreds of thousands of faithful believers who believe likewise.
4. Regardless of your position, please remember this as you respond, discuss, and take this conversation to both your Facebook walls and your dining room tables this week: all around you, the LGBTQ community is watching. They are listening. They are watching how we respond, how we talk about them, how we actually feel about them in our churches. They are your neighbors, your colleagues, they are in your churches already, some of them are in your homes, some of them are your children and you don’t know it. Most of them are quiet because they are scared. With good and obvious reason. But they are beautiful people loved by Jesus and no matter what, we should speak in a way befitting the way of grace, the same way that found and saved and redeemed and healed us too. Please don’t mistakenly take me to the mat in public or private and imagine it doesn’t carry weight with tender, beloved people who are bearing witness to all this.
I love you sincerely. I am always grateful to be your sister. All of you. And I hold those of you who are angry or shocked or confused with me this week very tenderly, too. I love you and I am here in the tension, committed to our little community and to all these sisters of mine. I am still here, hands open. Please remember with kindness and mercy the eyes on my page this week, so impossibly dear to God.
63 thoughts on “The Hatmakers double down on “holy” homosexual “marriage””
“Every verse in the bible that is used to condemn a “homosexual” act is written in the context of rape, prostitution, idolatry, pederasty, military dominance, an affair, or adultery.”
He is a liar. Start with Romans 1:26–27 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
The Bible couldn’t be more clear. Bible-believing Christians and even two out of the three types of pro-gay people* (religious or not) can see these truths:
– 100% of the verses addressing homosexual behavior describe it as sin in the clearest and strongest possible terms.
– 100% of the verses referring to God’s ideal for marriage involve one man and one woman.
– 100% of the verses referencing parenting involve moms and dads with unique roles (or at least a set of male and female parents guiding the children).
– 0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to homosexual behavior in a positive or even benign way or even hint at the acceptability of homosexual unions of any kind. There are no exceptions for “committed” relationships.
– 0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to LGBT couples parenting children.
* The three general types of pro-gay theology people:
1. “The Bible says homosexuality is wrong but it isn’t the word of God.” (Obviously non-Christians)
2. “The Bible says it is wrong but God changed his mind and is only telling the theological Left.” (Only about 10 things wrong with that.)
3. “The Bible is the word of God but you are just misunderstanding it” (Uh, no, not really.)
My thirty years of personal Bible Study tell me that you and Manny1962 have done your due diligence. Congratulations! Excellent biblical response. We can love (want the best for) everyone without approving of their sins. And since we are all sinners headed to destruction without faith in Christ, we as BORN AGAIN Christians have a loving obligation to share the truth of God’s word with everyone, including this man who thinks he’s got it right. The truth is that ALL sexual immorality (sex outside of heterosexual marriage) is sinful in the eyes of God. He designed woman for man… not man for man, or woman for woman.
Amen Murphy, amen. It’s written in so many places in scripture. People will come in Jesus name, proclaiming He said this and He said that, meanwhile willful ignorance on the part of the sheep will help spread these errors. Arrogance, ignorance and a willing heart to follow their own “visions and voices” proves they are corrupt, the blind leading the blind, instead of coming to The Lord for forgiveness, salvation, and wisdom……they try to be relevant to the rotted culture. Truly great is the apostasy and blindness affecting the rotting corpse of Churchianity, as God said, “come out from her my people.” Remember The Lord always seperates.
This is why there’s been a jettisoning of the The Word in so called modern congregations. They can’t get around it, so they devise their own explanations and try to back it up by saying “through much prayer, and scripture study” The Lord revealed this. There’s absolutely no shame left in these people. And where are the “conservative” pastors? Why aren’t they calling out these self appointed leaders? They’re just as complicit! No wonder the bible calls it The Great Apostasy. It’s here folks, the slide down the slippery slope has gained so much speed. Also, remember, as per The Word of God, those that will turn on us who hold on to the word will start on those that call themselves “Christians.”
I keyed in on this quote, which is at the crux of their argument.
“But not one of these scriptures was written in the context of marriage or civil union (which simply did not exist at this time).”
First, you have to totally redefine marriage to even talk about this issue. I don’t think God allows that
kind of redefinition–so it’s a moot point.
So this is an argument from silence, which never holds up. Just because the Bible does not explicitly say that
same sex marriage is a sin, that does not mean it is not a sin. If homosexual activity is a sin, we should
assume that homosexual activity within “same-sex marriage” (which is an illegitimate term in God’s eyes) is also a sin.
Finally, they are right about their statement because, even in the debauched world of that time, they never even
conceived of such a thing as same-sex marriage. No one, including GOD, would
even see the necessity of addressing it. We have come “so far” in our society that our debauchery has surpassed that
of the ancient world.
We need to both love LGBT people and tell them the truth. If we don’t, who will?
Great response. This article is trying so hard to make it look okay, when it cannot be supported by any scripture. This is very, very sad. Who are these people anyways?
Well said. I’m not sure how someone can distort scripture so badly. God is pretty straight forward and clear about any kind of sexual sin,including and especially homosexuality.
How can anyone reading the bible get the idea that homosexuality is okay? That is something that has always amazed me. Statements about homosexuality are some of the clearest in Scripture. There is absolutely no room for parsing out any other meaning. Do people like the Hatmakers really believe that a Jesus who says that a man who merely looks at another woman is guilty of adultery in his heart would give a free pass to sodomy? Incredible! Of course we are called to love homosexuals, to pray for them and respond to them with kindness and respect, but it is the ultimate evil not to tell the clearly biblical truth about their acts. I also find it very creepy that the Hatmakers tell us that homosexuals are watching the comment section. Very Bib Brother. To recap: as said above, all sexual sin is condemned, whether hetero or homo.
Brothers and sisters as I always say, part and parcel of the ever growing apostasy that’s evolving into the world wide religious system know as Mystery Babylon, inclusivity is the norm and ecumenism. Ironically God throughout scripture is always dividing, good from bad, wheat and tares.
Is there any wonder why the bible speaks so much against homosexuality? That the antichrist will possibly be a homosexual? That it was practiced by pagans and now infests the visible false church? The Hatmakers are deluded at best, at worst demon influenced, nonetheless they’re spouting as if they know what they are talking about, truly poisonous. Supplanting scripture for the imagination and foolishness of their corrupt thoughts.
Look at all the false teachers that support homosexuality and see how they are running headlong to Rome. Folks, please pray daily for the bride of Jesus Christ, the true church. Rampant homosexuality will be one of the flags signaling the coming man of sin, like in the days of Lot………..
That’s right Manny1962,
And currently the White house is occupied by two of them. The reigns of power have been given over to them already. At least in this country and the west.
This “power couple” has based their decision on feelings rather than God’s word. Their idea of what love is makes this point. Love apart from the truth is a lying feeling, and not real love at all. Which is a choice.
The reason they were not able to find a passage that put homosexuality in the context of a monogamous marriage is that God made them male and female in regard to marriage. Mark10:6- “But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.”
Anything else is an abomination to God that Paul says is worthy of death.
Rom.1:32- “Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”
It is connected with idols because that is where they started that led them to homosexuality. And Paul’s explanation here makes that true accross the board for every homosexual.
Rom.1:25-27- “Who changed the truth of God into a lie, AND WORSHIPPED AND SERVED THE CREATURE MORE THAN THE CREATOR, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
FOR THIS CAUSE God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.”
First the idolatry, then the homosexuality. This has been the same for all homosexuals for all time. You can not separate the two because the idol worship always comes first.
Maranatha!!
Blessings:-}
Amen Ed, it really boils down to idol worship which in turn is nothing more than Satan worship. Truly the bible is very clear on this. The mere fact that homosexuality is so condemned throughout the old and new testaments should give pause to anyone trying to expound differently. From Sodom and Gomorrah to male temple prostitues aptly called “temple dogs.” Even the antichrist is hinted at being a homosexual. Now why is homosexuality such an abomination, well it’s a sin against the body which is a temple, it destroys God’s creation, because such an abomination does not produce offspring, therefore it negates God’s command to go out into the world and multiply, it also negates marriage and the family unit, both institutions set up by God for the good of man. Look at the diseases brought upon the practicioners, all sorts of STDs that are with them for life. It is also one of the red flags of the approaching end of this age.
I sensed as I read the Hatmakers defense of homosexual marriage that I am supposed to be impressed by the sincerity of their convictions and impressed by the amount of “homework” in the Scriptures.
I am not impressed. They are certainly passionate. But they fail to persuade for two basic reasons.
First, Their apologetic is loaded with the language of “felt needs” and they assume I know all about their love and commitment to God’s Word and His people, as demonstrated by their ten years of ministry. And they assume a lot more besides.
Well folks, mistake #1 is assuming I know all about them because they are “celebrities”‘
Everyone else knows about them and trusts them…and so should I. That sounds like a commercial! And I am not buying what they are selling.[ I have a background in sales and marketing…I know what a sales pitch sounds like].
Secondly, the Hatmakers describe in excruciating detail all of the “heavy lifting”….all the study and research they did in the Scriptures and other sources so as to verify their position on homosexual marriage. Sounds like I should be impressed….again! I am not!
Romans 1:26-27 does not frame homosexuality in the context of a sex crime. It just says it is WRONG and IT IS SIN! I have no problem understanding those verses!
The bottom line: THESE PEOPLE HAVE NO DOUBT AS TO THEIR VIEW OF HOMOSEXUAL MARRIAGE AND NOTHING,NOT EVEN GOD’S WORD IS GOING TO MOVE THEM!
It feels good to reach out to the gay community and tell them what they want to hear.
It is cool being celebrities and experiencing the adulation of hurting, disenfranchised people who need to feel like their impulses and predilections are “normal.” They are the quintessential “rescuers”!
Trouble is, they are being hauled out of the water and placed on the Titanic!
Right Nancy! They appears to be dreamers and have cast God in the role of a dreamer. God does not dream how marriage can be He declares how it is! He defines what things are! He doesn’t learn! His standard does not shift with the times. There is no nuance to His definition of marriage. Any journey that gives “insight” contrary to what He has plainly declared is a journey of departure from the narrow path no matter how much they protest that they have not strayed.
Excellently put, Nancy!
Great reply Nancy! Couldn’t have said it better! 🙂
Stop saying the word of my sexual orientation so much. HETEROSEXUAL isn’t ever said this way it is not fair. NANCY I am NOT hurting and my feelings are normal just because heterosexual practicers don’t feel them doesn’t mean that they are abnormal. So why do heterosexuals feel their impulses and predilections are “normal”? Why do the heterosexual feel they are normal? Do the heterosexual choose heterosexuality or the heterosexual is born a heterosexual straight? Also sense so much people hate my orientation so much I am no longer a defender of heterosexual marriage also why don’t Christians pick on somebody else? Pick on pedophiles and leave me alone. My orientation is natural I didn’t choose I know this DOWN SYNDROME boy who is my orientation and he is proud it just hurts to know heterosexuals want to destroy him. I’m Autistic myself and I love love love guys
Hey i am new here.But the 1st chap of Romans.Vrs11starts I long to see you..That i may impart..Spiritual Gifts..To the end you may be ESTABLISHED….Comforted together.WITH you .By the mutual FAITH , Both of you and me. The next vrs .I would not have you IGNORANT BRETHERN ??? Go on to vrs17 and 18..Who hold the TRUTH IN UN RIGHTEOUSNESS…..All the rest of the chapter is about this and only this . IT is what Bro Paul says right at the end of the chapter in vrs32.HAVE PLEASURE IN THEM THAT DO THEM….OR consentingWITH THEM ,Who are they not just HOMASEXUALS sin here but all SIN. Shalom OR Selah .
Interestingly, the NIV intentionally dumbed down homosexuality in several places in both the old and new testaments. Martin Woudstra, an open homosexual, was the head of the Old Testament translation committee for the NIV while Virginia Mollencott, a lesbian, was the stylistic editor for the whole of the NIV. I have heard her speak of the intent to change the stigma of homosexuality where they could.
The critical point is that sin is why Jesus came to this earth and died a horrible and humiliating death, and if we don’t confront people with the gospel of sin and repentance, then we are not loving them – we are loving ourselves. The saving truth hurts, but it hurt Jesus more. Confront sin lovingly, but directly, snatching God’s precious children from the eternal fires of hell…while there is still time. You won’t regret it when you arrive in the presence of Jesus, no matter how much it cost you on earth.
Thanks Sola,
I knew the NIV was terrible, but I had no idea it was translated by homos.
WOW!
Blessings:-}
Your welcome my man.
Amen Nancy, amen!
They are perverting the Scriptures to suit their own perverted views.
In Romans chapter one Paul’s warning is that people who “hold the truth in unrighteousness” become fools vs.22 and this is a fitting description of the Hatmaker’s
Homosexuality is one of the results to “holding the truth in unrighteousness”, and in context to the rest of the chapter, support of homosexuality is the same as supporting “unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful”
They would deny this accusation but it will be the end result if they continue to “hold the truth in unrighteousness”
In “Thought #2 of Jen Hatmaker’s full statement, she says: “Jesus’ love for us is so insane and big and outside our templates and it reaches and reaches and reaches past our comforts to draw people to Him, and He does this with or without our permissions and sanctions and rules and hierarchies.” I hear this type of argument time and time again from many of my former church members — a church which has totally embraced the LGBT cause — by rejecting a LOT of scripture which doesn’t fit this agenda. This is one concept the LGBT supporters have slowly drifted to … the thought that God/Jesus embraces people of all lifestyles WITHOUT “our sanctions and rules, etc.” Excuse me? They aren’t OUR rules … they are God’s, as written in HIS Holy Word. These aren’t OUR or “my” opinions about homosexuality … they are the opinions of our Creator, who created male and female — who FIT together in a unique way — for the purpose of procreation. Wasn’t it Jesus himself who looked straight in the eye, the woman caught in adultery, and said, “Go thy way … AND SIN NO MORE.” He didn’t go on and on about how “love was all you need” … and nothing else mattered. His Word is CLEAR on sin — what it is, what it will do to your soul, and that its only wages is death — PERMANENT DEATH. There is NO scripture in the Word of God that can be interpreted that homosexuality is “OK in certain circumstances … like a loving, committed relationship.” People … we are ALL “as dead” because we ALL walk in sin. The only way for us to be redeemed, and BROUGHT TO LIFE is to accept God’s grace, mercy and forgiveness, and His salvation through the sacrifice of His son. The only way to do that is to believe on His name, and repent. We must ALL “go thy way and sin no more.” Spending ANY amount of time justifying something God’s Word identifies as “sin” is a complete waste of the precious time God has given us in this life. And for what purpose? So that sinners won’t be offended or hurt by the words of the Bible? Jesus himself is the “stumbling stone” of offense! True Christianity is NON-INCLUSIVE … it doesn’t include sin, or unrighteousness, or anything acceptable to the Prince of Darkness. It doesn’t include those who embrace a life of murdering, whoring, thievery, lying … and on and on and on. Should we tell ALL sinners their sins are “OK” because God loves them, and just wants them to be happy? NO! True LOVE does the hard task of teaching TRUTH to those we love, no matter how difficult that is. Is it more important for a child of God to be happy here on earth in this short life, doing all the things that make that person happy … or is it more important to lay our sins on the altar at the feet of Jesus, live as HE would have us live, so that we can be WITH HIM IN ETERNITY? Please don’t be fooled by those who call sin “acceptable in today’s world.” Jesus told Pilate he came here for TRUTH. Our world twists it into something completely unrecognizable, proclaiming that “everyone has their own truth” — and THAT is sin too, which God will hold all accountable for.
How can you say that marriage did not exist at that time, when the Bible clearly says that Joseph and Mary were “engaged to be married”? And how can you claim that all the Bible verses calling homosexuality a sin are about rape and incest, when they clearly have NOTHING to do with either one? How can you even claim to have studied Scriptures when an unbeliever can easily see what these verses say and know that your “argument” is utterly false? You have just become a part of the world instead of followers of Jesus, and are part of the Great Delusion.
Beyond this, the Free Methodist Church is advertising the Hatmaker’s reality show on HGTV, unfathomable. My early ministry days was around the Free Methodist, broke off the Methodist Episcopal Church over the issue of slavery in the 1800’s. I’ve been taught at Asbury Seminary in the 70’s by some remarkable biblical theologians of their church. Our more biblical denominations and churches are falling, and now the Free Methodist turn a blind eye to this apostasy? I posted on their website, “Homosexual marriages was NOT needed in non-believing or non-Judaic world, since it was widely acceptable practice.” The Hatmakers demonstrate proof-texting, and the fall of the “church,” (little c intended) is because of such biblical illiteracy and bereft scholarship.
The Free Methodists have since dumped the Hatmakers over the issue.
Me tinks the Hatmakers are upset that their bank roll may ne getting a bit smaller after this. People like them are all about money. Lots of these folks in American Evangelicalism. She is just another false teacher saying what goats want to hear and making lots of money while doing it.
Should I know who this is? Never heard of her, or her husband, before. I googled them, and apparently they have a show (?) and he wrote a book (?) but all the same, why should I care what they think about the LGBTQXYZ issue?
Hello Moz,
Well, what they’re pushing is erroneous, blasphemously attributing their swill as coming from heaven directly. Apostates spreading anti biblical error should be the concern of all Christians. Paul admonished us all to contend for the faith. What do you think of what they’re proposing?
Thank you for not allowing offensive ads. I can only repost information that does not have awful ads. Good article, appreciate the information.
People of God: If you can not discern by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit that what these apostates are saying, you need to get a refresher course in knowing the Word of God!
This couple have twisted the Word of God to their own imaginations and they want to appear pious and humble and “oh so godly” that you want to puke.
Am I judging them? You bet! My judgment is righteous because it agrees with the Word of God which condemns such acts as sin.
My “beef” with this couple is that they try to cover their gibberish with the ruse of
prayer and reading the scriptures. Baloney! They have fallen victim to Satan’s devices and they do not even know it!
In their desire to be inclusive and not take a stand on the Word of God, they have forsaken their first love and have taken up allegiance with demonic influences.
Someone needs to turn them over to Satan for their chastisement so that they can
come to their senses and repent!
Amen! Apostasy abounds
I’ve noticed that the Hatmakers did NOT list Robert A. J. Gagnon of Pittsburgh Theological Seminary (The Bible and Homosexual Practice) as he is the preeminent author on the issue.
He’s gone toe-to-toe with Matthew Vines (“The Bible doesn’t know loving committed gender neutral relationships/marriages”) as well as David Gushee (“The traditional beliefs about love and marriage have negatively affected the LGBTQITrXYZ etc. community and therefore must change”). Or his podcast on Unbelievable (Gagnon vs. Jayne Ozanne)
“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires”
(2 Timothy 4:3)
Reading some of the Hatmaker’s Facebook comments it is clear the above verse is happening in our time. People make these teachers into celebrities and leaders because it’s what they want to hear but regardless what these teachers assert it is not truth based from scripture.
I think it would be good to point out as others have how this is being presented because it is rather clever and is used frequently to distort what the bible actually says.
The Hatmaker’s want to immediately give the impression that they are taking the high road of love and compassion and those who disagree are hard hearted bullies who have not studied the subject or the Holy Spirit would also reveal the same conclusion they have come to leaving those who disagree on the low road. (Ouch).
Jen also states –
“We are standing outside the city gates with people He asked us to stand with, and that is the beginning and end of it.”
So now if you disagree you are a hypocritical pharisee and she is outside the gates (a reference to Hebrews coming out of Judaism) end of story. This is a bad analogy. In reality she has caused division and harm in the church and become a heretic. It’s those who know the truth who care about those outside the church. She has sided with sin and wants to scold Christians who don’t.
From this lofty position they have established Brandon begins by making reference to what appears to be a quote from Micah 6:8 to ”love mercy and seek justice’. The problem here is that he has transposed the words and left out “and to walk humbly with thy God”.
Here is Micah 6:8 –
He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?
By cleverly putting mercy before justice you change the order in which God is telling us how to walk, you must have justice or there is no need for mercy! Justice means to determine what is true and what is right in our own lives then in the life of others, in this case we are talking about homosexuality, and then dealing with it with the same amount of mercy we ourselves would like to receive and hopefully that mercy would not include affirming to continue in sin.
Also by putting mercy first he then begins to use the “higher road” of love as a hermeneutic to interpret scripture and that begins with searching for pain in the lives of others. This is a faulty hermeneutic putting feelings and experience to understand God’s word rather than letting God’s word speak for itself with a literal hermeneutic, in other words, a normal understanding of what is being said in context. Feelings, experience, or even passion, are not good ways to determine what the bible is saying or finding truth.
Leaving out “to walk humbly with our God” leaves out for the reader to understand they are not the ones who get to decide what is just but must humble themselves, leave their understanding of justice, and allow the creator to tell us what is just, good and right.
With the hermeneutic of Feelings and experience (talking to those who have same sex attraction etc.) and some word gymnastics Brandon reveals something amazing that has been misunderstood for most of Christendom –
“Every verse in the Bible that is used to condemn a “homosexual” act is written in the context of rape, prostitution, idolatry, pederasty, military dominance, an affair, or adultery.”
This statement is the latest argument being put forth by gay affirming “more loving” activists and has been shown not to be true at all. Every verse in the bible on homosexuality makes no reference to the things he mentions they simply say that –
“If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.” (Leviticus 20:13).
Both of them are guilty for this act, in the case of rape only one is to be punished not both proving this is consensual, and man legalizing homosexual marriage does not change God’s word.
In Romans 1 it says –
“For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.”
Again “burned in their desire toward one another” is consensual. There is no mention in the bible that ii is okay to commit these acts if you are in a “civil union” or a committed consensual monogamous relationship, it says it is an abomination and those who practice these acts will not inherit the kingdom of God.
One of the most insidious things from both of them is their assurance to us that their “view of the word is still very high” and “we’ve found that the majority of affirming Christians have not “abandoned” the Bible in order to shift their thinking, as many accuse”. This is like something straight of of the Screwtape Letters, “we haven’t abandoned the bible we just understand it better now”. BALONEY!
Brandon closes with this verse –
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” – John 13:34-35
My question is, what kind of love affirms someone in sin that excludes them from eternal life with God?
Amen Q, “love and compassion” has sent more to hell than you think. This is the same arguement used for not judging, any judging, including righteous judgement as prescribed in scripture. Many would rather let people slide into hell rather than be accused of being unbrotherly, unloving or being judgemental. Sad indeed.
Amen Manny and Q.
Blessings:-}
This may be very bold in saying this. Abraham and LOT and family in Sodom And Gomorah And wait for it/////// ANGELS in attendance to bring Judgement here on not just sexual sin and perversement .The poor and needy???? LOT mentioned in new test ,His righteous soul vexed continually is stated.????Us today? Now for the tribe of Benjaim and how all the tribes of ISRAEl came against them and slew this tribe down to 600 men..We all need to read about the LEVITE AND HIS CONCUBINE in going back to BETHEL.In his travel he chose a israelite town than a town outside israel The latter may have been safer. But choices are made Benjaminites ? HOMOSEXUALS IN ISRAEL..This is not a nice story here believe me and holly wood would have a hard time in scripting this one .All it would have to do is follow the bible. While i am here the movies on biblical PATRIARCH not good just more error after error..Remember what Christ.said hypocripts.PRETENDERS / FALSIFERS /ACTORS. The sad thing here is in JUDGES every MANSWAY was RIGHt in their OWN EYES. Does this sound similar to this day. I leave this up to you to DISCERN people of GOD. There is a saying i have heard for many years now it goes like this. THE TRUTH HURTS. Thank god for TRUTH people we need more of them . P. S. the truth sorry TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE.Shalom or SELAH.
“Also, we would do well to remember that this actually isn’t just “an issue” let alone something “outside” – this is us. GLBTQ disciples are among us – and always have been – as a faithful witness to the resurrection of Jesus Christ. They are the church just as much as the rest of us, each deeply beloved by God and by their community. There is no us-and-them here. Have care with and for one another.”
This young lady needs The Lord and lots of prayer. I read her entire post referenced by Molly, so sad. Their notion of God is just not real. Again, having a form off godliness…..but denying power.
People don’t want truth anymore! They want their ears tickled, their preconceived notions to be as authoritative as God inspired scripture. These people are blind, pitiful, ignorant and headed for a huge surprise. Churchianity is so rotted it’s disgusting. These people have fully melded into the world.
Manny1962,
You just described the laodicean church of these last days. And you could not be more correct in that description.
Rev.3:14-18
“And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art WRETCHED, and MISERABLE, and POOR, and BLIND, and NAKED:
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.”
These are the fulfillment of this scripture.
Blessings:-} brother
Maranatha!!
Well said Manny and Ed. Sin is why Jesus died. Sin is what sends people to hell for ever and ever. If we don’t confront people with their sin, lovingly but directly … then we don’t love them.
Brothers! in spite of all the darkness falling on this world, let’s rejoice! Ed, SS, we have so much to be thankful for! It’s an amazing time to be alive in, we are seeing the culmination of history and the book of Revelation coming alive before our eyes! It seems we are always trying to stem the onslaught, it’s contending for the faith! I’m humbled by men (and the ladies here) such as yourselves, we truly are on the edge of forever, and we are trying to persuade others to come to Christ!
How blessed we should count ourselves to be and how humbled, as our Lord has opened our eyes to see! We are not perfect, but we will be one day! Let’s rejoice in our salvation and let’s reach as many as we can, strange days are headed our way, but The Lord will NOT test us beyond what we can bare. Amy and Marsha God bless you both for your tireless effort contending for the truth in Christ. Few are the days left!
Manny,
How true your words are. We are so close to His return and there is nothing but to reach as many as possible for the kingdom. And yes, thank you Marsha and Amy for the great job you do contending for the faith.
Blessings:-}
Very true, Manny, from another 1962 alumni! I don’t understand why so many Christians are worrying about a Clinton presidency and the supposed persecution that will come of it. No one wants persecution, but when it comes, it has always seen a great flowering of true belief. We have nothing to fear.
Amen brother! Christians need to seperate from the world’s system, that includes a politicization of Christianity! As if somehow voting for the “right” candidate will undo the evil being propagated! How many articles I’ve read in which the author blames the church for the evils of society, for not embracing it and the correct party, how we somehow let Jesus down by not being activists! Well, if we the small and faithful bride of Christ are to be blamed, then we would have to blame Paul and the apostles for the downfall of Rome! Never have I read in Holy Scripture where we had to be political activists to get our “rights.” Our rights are in our country from where we eagerly await our King. This here and now is passing away very, very fast! Jesus said we would have trouble and persecution or His name’s sake, we will not be tested beyond what we can bare! Our God is Holy, Just, Perfect and beyond reproach, trust in our Rock we will be fine! No matter how rough the seas get! Remember Peter, the boat and walking on water! Our God can do anything! Bless you brother! Keep on praying, lay all your cares upon His feet!
Manny, I absolutely love every word you’ve written here, and I found it to be VERY convicting. I have worried far too much about this election and its results. I HAVE remembered to trust my Lord, and I KNOW He will take care of us — His Bride — His Church — but as an American, I worry that we have done NOTHING to warrant His favor, in our current generation. We continue to slide down, as a nation, deeper and further into darkness — denying sin for what it is, and accepting sin as “normal and good.” Denying God’s Word — and accepting the approval of the world, as if that mattered at all. My biggest worry is that God will decide “its time” to repeat His words to the Romans, in the 1st chapter of Paul’s wonderful epistle: “God gave them over. He gave them over. He gave them over.” Thank you for sharing this … and may I ask your permission to share this with my friends on my FB page, while crediting you. I have been silent through this entire election season, but your words ring so true to me, and I really do WANT my friends and family to know where I stand. I couldn’t have said it any better than you have here. You stand in the stead of Christ and His righteousness.) God bless you!!
Good evening sister Ruth! Of course you may use what I wrote! I try to write with my brothers and sisters in mind! I know many worry about the state of affairs in this nation and in the world! Sister, remember where you come from! It’s not here, our Good Lord has granted you citizenship into His kingdom! Please, don’t worry about anything God will be a lamp unto your feet! What you must do is pray! Pray incessantly! The hour is so late! Remember, don’t get attached to this world, but cling to The Rock the Savior of your soul! America is going the way of all he nations in the world. As we stand America has fully rejected God, they did not want Him in government, schools, courtrooms and many pastors have dishonored His perfect Son and His righteous Word! Do not worry about anything! Presidents, congressmen, judges they’re all under the authority of God’s plan! Not man!
Is it possible to desecrate the sacraments—say, like—drinking goat’s blood and eating feces instead of juice and bread—and calling it the Lord’s Supper? (These things represent the sanctified body and blood of Jesus.)
I know that may sound ridiculous and extreme—but think on this. We mustn’t forget (as Christians, specifically)—that marriage between a man and a woman is supposed to represent the relationship between Christ and His Bride, the church. This is meant to be a “sanctified relationship”—the Creator/Redeemer bonded to His creation—His bride.
Eve was “made” from Adam’s rib because it is through the power of the Son of God that His Creation—his Bride–came into existence. It is also through the Son of God that the Bride finds her redemption. Essentially, the Bride finds both her origination and redemption in her Lord. She is the Body of Christ. The Son of God and His Bride definitely have different “roles to play” in this union.
What are we, as Christians, without our Lord and Savior? Are we “Lords unto ourselves?” What is our Lord without a people to redeem? Christ may still be deity, but He is NOT A CREATOR AND SAVIOUR—because there is no bride to redeem. The union of a “bride with a bride”, or a “groom with a groom” is a desecration of holy symbolism. This is the “message” of the gay union. It is an anti-Christ, anti-Lord message/symbolism.
When the definition of marriage is changed, the symbolism is desecrated and destroyed. It is made unholy. When that which is holy and true is made UNHOLY—all of society will suffer. (This is because our Creator made society to “work best” when it works in harmony with His design and symbolism. It’s embedded in nature. If His design is abandoned, then society will ultimately break down.)
Manny and Joy,
The basis for the Hatmaker’s misunderstanding of “holy matrimony” is deception. They have believed the hiss of the serpent saying that love is love no matter the union. Where does this stop once we have accepted such an abomination as homosexuality being “holy”? It does not. Pedophelia, polygamy. Anything goes once God’s word is rejected as the final authority for right and wrong.
Blessings:-}
Good afternoon Joy 1979,
Society is paying now for many transgressions against a Holy and Just God. Abortion and wanton Dirvorce without a biblical excuse (defiling the marriage bed), rampant homosexuality and its consequences from STDs to suicides and mental diseases, oh it’s paying. And people who presume to speak for The Lord like Mrs. Hatmaker and lead others to sin (by saying she received revelation from The Lord that “holy” gay marriage is ok) are guilty of many sins, but the worse is presuming to speak in the name of The Lord and proclaiming God said homosexuality is acceptable. They’re playing with fire.
The Hatmakers are just a bunch of hating heresy makers.
Yes, homosexuality IS a sin, and God will come out ‘swinging’ at those who disagree when He pours out His wrath upon all the earth for sins such as homosexuality! Sadly, they will be on the wrong side of the fence when it gets unleashed…
I am thinking of leaving the protestant church over the kind of people who have left responses here. You are to me the definition of evil and love the Bible more than you love people, not at all what Jesus did.
I have cancelled all of my dealings with Lifeway and I will also do it with Berean. May you all find your little hate -illed Bible thumping world as small and contained as you all would like it.
For me, I choose LOVE, like Jesus did.
Did you know that the program that was touted as the therapy for gays has been discontinued because it does not work. How do you explain that?
Think about it!
“For me, I choose LOVE, like Jesus did.”
Matthew 7:15
Matthew 23:25-26
Acts 20:28-30
Jesus did not “love” those that twisted scripture!
[Did you know that the program that was touted as the therapy for gays has been discontinued because it does not work.]
I know people who used to be homosexual. Some of them came from a “program” and others didn’t go through any program. I will say that those who were in the program had more struggles. It’s not that God can’t change homosexuals, it’s that the programs aren’t always the right answer.
God does change homosexuals into heterosexuals because that’s how He created us.
Carol, if encouraging your friends to engage in a lifestyle that God states clearly destroys them spiritually and leads them down the path of eternal separation from their Savior is your definition of love, then we’re reading very different dictionaries. Because that sounds like hate to me.
Unfortunately, the road to hell is paved with “love.” Many think it’s “loving” to accept sin, look the other way, and let the person happily wallow in it while on the slippery wide road…….their excuse: don’t judge others, be accepting, you’re a homophobe, you’re a bigot or worse. Meanwhile a human being is sacrificed on the altar of Political Correctness, all because someone put THEMSELVES first, see the irony? It’s the ultimate selfishness, putting someone’s sensibilities before their salvation! Truly these are the days when evil is called good and good evil!
Carol,
The Jesus you love is not the Christ of the bible, he is a god of your understanding. You haven’t a clue who the God of the Bible is —- for He is holy, holy, holy. He absolutely hates all sin and poured out His wrath on His own Son for all who believe because of His hatred of sin.
This is an excerpt from Ralph Venning’s sermon, ‘the sinfulness of sin’ – http://www.apuritansmind.com/wp-content/uploads/FREEEBOOKS/TheSinfulnessofSin-RalphVenning.pdf
“The wicked and the one who loves violence–His soul hates!” Psalm 11:5
God hates man for sin! It is not only sin, but sinners that God hates–and that for sin! It is said of God, that He hates the workers of iniquity (Psalm 5:5); not only the works of iniquity–but the workers of it.
It is because of sin, that the merciful God says, “Their Maker has no compassion on them, and their Creator shows them no favor!” Isaiah 27:11
This is the worst that can be spoken of the venom of sin, that in a sense, and to speak after the manner of men–it has put hatred into God Himself! Sin has made the Lord hate and destroy His own workmanship!” R. Venning
It is obvious you haven’t a clue how wicked all of mankind is, and you take one attribute of God and run with it, which gives you a lopsided ‘god’. However, the God of scripture will take vengeance on unrepentant sinners.
This is a part of the modern day accursed gospel, ‘Jesus loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life’. You will not find that anywhere in the bible.
I & my boyfriend was planning to get married last month, just last week we had some argument that made him get angry on me just because of the argument, he said we will not marry me again and the next day he left me and we broke up. I still loved him and I wanted him to marry me, for me to get him back i had no choice than to contacted dr_mack@yahoo. com to help me and he helped me to bring my lover back to me so we can continue our plan to be married. he came back after 3 days, we are happily married now.
Spam…………..
Romans 1:21-32
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Where I stand on LGBTQ…
Hi, everyone.
“Every verse in the bible that is used to condemn a “homosexual” act is written in the context of rape, prostitution, idolatry, pederasty, military dominance, an affair, or adultery.”
He is a liar. Start with Romans 1:26–27 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
The Bible couldn’t be more clear. Bible-believing Christians and even two out of the three types of pro-gay people* (religious or not) can see these truths:
– 100% of the verses addressing homosexual behavior describe it as sin in the clearest and strongest possible terms.
– 100% of the verses referring to God’s ideal for marriage involve one man and one woman.
– 100% of the verses referencing parenting involve moms and dads with unique roles (or at least a set of male and female parents guiding the children).
– 0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to homosexual behavior in a positive or even benign way or even hint at the acceptability of homosexual unions of any kind. There are no exceptions for “committed” relationships.
– 0% of 31,173 Bible verses refer to LGBT couples parenting children.
Having said that, I believe that Christians should support and encourage those who are fighting same-sex attraction. And no one needs to grandstand on the issue before getting to the Good News of the cross: http://1eternitymatters.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/evangelism-experiences-1/ .
* The three general types of pro-gay theology people:
1. “The Bible says homosexuality is wrong but it isn’t the word of God.” (Obviously non-Christians)
2. “The Bible says it is wrong but God changed his mind and is only telling the theological Left.” (Only about 10 things wrong with that.)
3. “The Bible is the word of God but you are just misunderstanding it” (Uh, no, not really.)
My thirty years of personal Bible Study tell me that you and Manny1962 have done your due diligence. Congratulations! Excellent biblical response. We can love (want the best for) everyone without approving of their sins. And since we are all sinners headed to destruction without faith in Christ, we as BORN AGAIN Christians have a loving obligation to share the truth of God’s word with everyone, including this man who thinks he’s got it right. The truth is that ALL sexual immorality (sex outside of heterosexual marriage) is sinful in the eyes of God. He designed woman for man… not man for man, or woman for woman.
Amen Murphy, amen. It’s written in so many places in scripture. People will come in Jesus name, proclaiming He said this and He said that, meanwhile willful ignorance on the part of the sheep will help spread these errors. Arrogance, ignorance and a willing heart to follow their own “visions and voices” proves they are corrupt, the blind leading the blind, instead of coming to The Lord for forgiveness, salvation, and wisdom……they try to be relevant to the rotted culture. Truly great is the apostasy and blindness affecting the rotting corpse of Churchianity, as God said, “come out from her my people.” Remember The Lord always seperates.
This is why there’s been a jettisoning of the The Word in so called modern congregations. They can’t get around it, so they devise their own explanations and try to back it up by saying “through much prayer, and scripture study” The Lord revealed this. There’s absolutely no shame left in these people. And where are the “conservative” pastors? Why aren’t they calling out these self appointed leaders? They’re just as complicit! No wonder the bible calls it The Great Apostasy. It’s here folks, the slide down the slippery slope has gained so much speed. Also, remember, as per The Word of God, those that will turn on us who hold on to the word will start on those that call themselves “Christians.”
I keyed in on this quote, which is at the crux of their argument.
“But not one of these scriptures was written in the context of marriage or civil union (which simply did not exist at this time).”
First, you have to totally redefine marriage to even talk about this issue. I don’t think God allows that
kind of redefinition–so it’s a moot point.
So this is an argument from silence, which never holds up. Just because the Bible does not explicitly say that
same sex marriage is a sin, that does not mean it is not a sin. If homosexual activity is a sin, we should
assume that homosexual activity within “same-sex marriage” (which is an illegitimate term in God’s eyes) is also a sin.
Finally, they are right about their statement because, even in the debauched world of that time, they never even
conceived of such a thing as same-sex marriage. No one, including GOD, would
even see the necessity of addressing it. We have come “so far” in our society that our debauchery has surpassed that
of the ancient world.
We need to both love LGBT people and tell them the truth. If we don’t, who will?
Great response. This article is trying so hard to make it look okay, when it cannot be supported by any scripture. This is very, very sad. Who are these people anyways?
Well said. I’m not sure how someone can distort scripture so badly. God is pretty straight forward and clear about any kind of sexual sin,including and especially homosexuality.
How can anyone reading the bible get the idea that homosexuality is okay? That is something that has always amazed me. Statements about homosexuality are some of the clearest in Scripture. There is absolutely no room for parsing out any other meaning. Do people like the Hatmakers really believe that a Jesus who says that a man who merely looks at another woman is guilty of adultery in his heart would give a free pass to sodomy? Incredible! Of course we are called to love homosexuals, to pray for them and respond to them with kindness and respect, but it is the ultimate evil not to tell the clearly biblical truth about their acts. I also find it very creepy that the Hatmakers tell us that homosexuals are watching the comment section. Very Bib Brother. To recap: as said above, all sexual sin is condemned, whether hetero or homo.
Brothers and sisters as I always say, part and parcel of the ever growing apostasy that’s evolving into the world wide religious system know as Mystery Babylon, inclusivity is the norm and ecumenism. Ironically God throughout scripture is always dividing, good from bad, wheat and tares.
Is there any wonder why the bible speaks so much against homosexuality? That the antichrist will possibly be a homosexual? That it was practiced by pagans and now infests the visible false church? The Hatmakers are deluded at best, at worst demon influenced, nonetheless they’re spouting as if they know what they are talking about, truly poisonous. Supplanting scripture for the imagination and foolishness of their corrupt thoughts.
Look at all the false teachers that support homosexuality and see how they are running headlong to Rome. Folks, please pray daily for the bride of Jesus Christ, the true church. Rampant homosexuality will be one of the flags signaling the coming man of sin, like in the days of Lot………..
That’s right Manny1962,
And currently the White house is occupied by two of them. The reigns of power have been given over to them already. At least in this country and the west.
This “power couple” has based their decision on feelings rather than God’s word. Their idea of what love is makes this point. Love apart from the truth is a lying feeling, and not real love at all. Which is a choice.
The reason they were not able to find a passage that put homosexuality in the context of a monogamous marriage is that God made them male and female in regard to marriage. Mark10:6- “But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.”
Anything else is an abomination to God that Paul says is worthy of death.
Rom.1:32- “Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”
It is connected with idols because that is where they started that led them to homosexuality. And Paul’s explanation here makes that true accross the board for every homosexual.
Rom.1:25-27- “Who changed the truth of God into a lie, AND WORSHIPPED AND SERVED THE CREATURE MORE THAN THE CREATOR, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
FOR THIS CAUSE God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.”
First the idolatry, then the homosexuality. This has been the same for all homosexuals for all time. You can not separate the two because the idol worship always comes first.
Maranatha!!
Blessings:-}
Amen Ed, it really boils down to idol worship which in turn is nothing more than Satan worship. Truly the bible is very clear on this. The mere fact that homosexuality is so condemned throughout the old and new testaments should give pause to anyone trying to expound differently. From Sodom and Gomorrah to male temple prostitues aptly called “temple dogs.” Even the antichrist is hinted at being a homosexual. Now why is homosexuality such an abomination, well it’s a sin against the body which is a temple, it destroys God’s creation, because such an abomination does not produce offspring, therefore it negates God’s command to go out into the world and multiply, it also negates marriage and the family unit, both institutions set up by God for the good of man. Look at the diseases brought upon the practicioners, all sorts of STDs that are with them for life. It is also one of the red flags of the approaching end of this age.
I sensed as I read the Hatmakers defense of homosexual marriage that I am supposed to be impressed by the sincerity of their convictions and impressed by the amount of “homework” in the Scriptures.
I am not impressed. They are certainly passionate. But they fail to persuade for two basic reasons.
First, Their apologetic is loaded with the language of “felt needs” and they assume I know all about their love and commitment to God’s Word and His people, as demonstrated by their ten years of ministry. And they assume a lot more besides.
Well folks, mistake #1 is assuming I know all about them because they are “celebrities”‘
Everyone else knows about them and trusts them…and so should I. That sounds like a commercial! And I am not buying what they are selling.[ I have a background in sales and marketing…I know what a sales pitch sounds like].
Secondly, the Hatmakers describe in excruciating detail all of the “heavy lifting”….all the study and research they did in the Scriptures and other sources so as to verify their position on homosexual marriage. Sounds like I should be impressed….again! I am not!
Romans 1:26-27 does not frame homosexuality in the context of a sex crime. It just says it is WRONG and IT IS SIN! I have no problem understanding those verses!
The bottom line: THESE PEOPLE HAVE NO DOUBT AS TO THEIR VIEW OF HOMOSEXUAL MARRIAGE AND NOTHING,NOT EVEN GOD’S WORD IS GOING TO MOVE THEM!
It feels good to reach out to the gay community and tell them what they want to hear.
It is cool being celebrities and experiencing the adulation of hurting, disenfranchised people who need to feel like their impulses and predilections are “normal.” They are the quintessential “rescuers”!
Trouble is, they are being hauled out of the water and placed on the Titanic!
Right Nancy! They appears to be dreamers and have cast God in the role of a dreamer. God does not dream how marriage can be He declares how it is! He defines what things are! He doesn’t learn! His standard does not shift with the times. There is no nuance to His definition of marriage. Any journey that gives “insight” contrary to what He has plainly declared is a journey of departure from the narrow path no matter how much they protest that they have not strayed.
Excellently put, Nancy!
Great reply Nancy! Couldn’t have said it better! 🙂
Stop saying the word of my sexual orientation so much. HETEROSEXUAL isn’t ever said this way it is not fair. NANCY I am NOT hurting and my feelings are normal just because heterosexual practicers don’t feel them doesn’t mean that they are abnormal. So why do heterosexuals feel their impulses and predilections are “normal”? Why do the heterosexual feel they are normal? Do the heterosexual choose heterosexuality or the heterosexual is born a heterosexual straight? Also sense so much people hate my orientation so much I am no longer a defender of heterosexual marriage also why don’t Christians pick on somebody else? Pick on pedophiles and leave me alone. My orientation is natural I didn’t choose I know this DOWN SYNDROME boy who is my orientation and he is proud it just hurts to know heterosexuals want to destroy him. I’m Autistic myself and I love love love guys
Hey i am new here.But the 1st chap of Romans.Vrs11starts I long to see you..That i may impart..Spiritual Gifts..To the end you may be ESTABLISHED….Comforted together.WITH you .By the mutual FAITH , Both of you and me. The next vrs .I would not have you IGNORANT BRETHERN ??? Go on to vrs17 and 18..Who hold the TRUTH IN UN RIGHTEOUSNESS…..All the rest of the chapter is about this and only this . IT is what Bro Paul says right at the end of the chapter in vrs32.HAVE PLEASURE IN THEM THAT DO THEM….OR consentingWITH THEM ,Who are they not just HOMASEXUALS sin here but all SIN. Shalom OR Selah .
Interestingly, the NIV intentionally dumbed down homosexuality in several places in both the old and new testaments. Martin Woudstra, an open homosexual, was the head of the Old Testament translation committee for the NIV while Virginia Mollencott, a lesbian, was the stylistic editor for the whole of the NIV. I have heard her speak of the intent to change the stigma of homosexuality where they could.
The critical point is that sin is why Jesus came to this earth and died a horrible and humiliating death, and if we don’t confront people with the gospel of sin and repentance, then we are not loving them – we are loving ourselves. The saving truth hurts, but it hurt Jesus more. Confront sin lovingly, but directly, snatching God’s precious children from the eternal fires of hell…while there is still time. You won’t regret it when you arrive in the presence of Jesus, no matter how much it cost you on earth.
Thanks Sola,
I knew the NIV was terrible, but I had no idea it was translated by homos.
WOW!
Blessings:-}
Your welcome my man.
Amen Nancy, amen!
They are perverting the Scriptures to suit their own perverted views.
In Romans chapter one Paul’s warning is that people who “hold the truth in unrighteousness” become fools vs.22 and this is a fitting description of the Hatmaker’s
Homosexuality is one of the results to “holding the truth in unrighteousness”, and in context to the rest of the chapter, support of homosexuality is the same as supporting “unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful”
They would deny this accusation but it will be the end result if they continue to “hold the truth in unrighteousness”
In “Thought #2 of Jen Hatmaker’s full statement, she says: “Jesus’ love for us is so insane and big and outside our templates and it reaches and reaches and reaches past our comforts to draw people to Him, and He does this with or without our permissions and sanctions and rules and hierarchies.” I hear this type of argument time and time again from many of my former church members — a church which has totally embraced the LGBT cause — by rejecting a LOT of scripture which doesn’t fit this agenda. This is one concept the LGBT supporters have slowly drifted to … the thought that God/Jesus embraces people of all lifestyles WITHOUT “our sanctions and rules, etc.” Excuse me? They aren’t OUR rules … they are God’s, as written in HIS Holy Word. These aren’t OUR or “my” opinions about homosexuality … they are the opinions of our Creator, who created male and female — who FIT together in a unique way — for the purpose of procreation. Wasn’t it Jesus himself who looked straight in the eye, the woman caught in adultery, and said, “Go thy way … AND SIN NO MORE.” He didn’t go on and on about how “love was all you need” … and nothing else mattered. His Word is CLEAR on sin — what it is, what it will do to your soul, and that its only wages is death — PERMANENT DEATH. There is NO scripture in the Word of God that can be interpreted that homosexuality is “OK in certain circumstances … like a loving, committed relationship.” People … we are ALL “as dead” because we ALL walk in sin. The only way for us to be redeemed, and BROUGHT TO LIFE is to accept God’s grace, mercy and forgiveness, and His salvation through the sacrifice of His son. The only way to do that is to believe on His name, and repent. We must ALL “go thy way and sin no more.” Spending ANY amount of time justifying something God’s Word identifies as “sin” is a complete waste of the precious time God has given us in this life. And for what purpose? So that sinners won’t be offended or hurt by the words of the Bible? Jesus himself is the “stumbling stone” of offense! True Christianity is NON-INCLUSIVE … it doesn’t include sin, or unrighteousness, or anything acceptable to the Prince of Darkness. It doesn’t include those who embrace a life of murdering, whoring, thievery, lying … and on and on and on. Should we tell ALL sinners their sins are “OK” because God loves them, and just wants them to be happy? NO! True LOVE does the hard task of teaching TRUTH to those we love, no matter how difficult that is. Is it more important for a child of God to be happy here on earth in this short life, doing all the things that make that person happy … or is it more important to lay our sins on the altar at the feet of Jesus, live as HE would have us live, so that we can be WITH HIM IN ETERNITY? Please don’t be fooled by those who call sin “acceptable in today’s world.” Jesus told Pilate he came here for TRUTH. Our world twists it into something completely unrecognizable, proclaiming that “everyone has their own truth” — and THAT is sin too, which God will hold all accountable for.
How can you say that marriage did not exist at that time, when the Bible clearly says that Joseph and Mary were “engaged to be married”? And how can you claim that all the Bible verses calling homosexuality a sin are about rape and incest, when they clearly have NOTHING to do with either one? How can you even claim to have studied Scriptures when an unbeliever can easily see what these verses say and know that your “argument” is utterly false? You have just become a part of the world instead of followers of Jesus, and are part of the Great Delusion.
Nichole Nordeman is supporting Jen Hatmaker in a tweet as well: https://mobile.twitter.com/nicholenordeman/status/790969842119512065?p=v
Beyond this, the Free Methodist Church is advertising the Hatmaker’s reality show on HGTV, unfathomable. My early ministry days was around the Free Methodist, broke off the Methodist Episcopal Church over the issue of slavery in the 1800’s. I’ve been taught at Asbury Seminary in the 70’s by some remarkable biblical theologians of their church. Our more biblical denominations and churches are falling, and now the Free Methodist turn a blind eye to this apostasy? I posted on their website, “Homosexual marriages was NOT needed in non-believing or non-Judaic world, since it was widely acceptable practice.” The Hatmakers demonstrate proof-texting, and the fall of the “church,” (little c intended) is because of such biblical illiteracy and bereft scholarship.
The Free Methodists have since dumped the Hatmakers over the issue.
Me tinks the Hatmakers are upset that their bank roll may ne getting a bit smaller after this. People like them are all about money. Lots of these folks in American Evangelicalism. She is just another false teacher saying what goats want to hear and making lots of money while doing it.
Should I know who this is? Never heard of her, or her husband, before. I googled them, and apparently they have a show (?) and he wrote a book (?) but all the same, why should I care what they think about the LGBTQXYZ issue?
Hello Moz,
Well, what they’re pushing is erroneous, blasphemously attributing their swill as coming from heaven directly. Apostates spreading anti biblical error should be the concern of all Christians. Paul admonished us all to contend for the faith. What do you think of what they’re proposing?
Thank you for not allowing offensive ads. I can only repost information that does not have awful ads. Good article, appreciate the information.
People of God: If you can not discern by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit that what these apostates are saying, you need to get a refresher course in knowing the Word of God!
This couple have twisted the Word of God to their own imaginations and they want to appear pious and humble and “oh so godly” that you want to puke.
Am I judging them? You bet! My judgment is righteous because it agrees with the Word of God which condemns such acts as sin.
My “beef” with this couple is that they try to cover their gibberish with the ruse of
prayer and reading the scriptures. Baloney! They have fallen victim to Satan’s devices and they do not even know it!
In their desire to be inclusive and not take a stand on the Word of God, they have forsaken their first love and have taken up allegiance with demonic influences.
Someone needs to turn them over to Satan for their chastisement so that they can
come to their senses and repent!
Amen! Apostasy abounds
I’ve noticed that the Hatmakers did NOT list Robert A. J. Gagnon of Pittsburgh Theological Seminary (The Bible and Homosexual Practice) as he is the preeminent author on the issue.
He’s gone toe-to-toe with Matthew Vines (“The Bible doesn’t know loving committed gender neutral relationships/marriages”) as well as David Gushee (“The traditional beliefs about love and marriage have negatively affected the LGBTQITrXYZ etc. community and therefore must change”). Or his podcast on Unbelievable (Gagnon vs. Jayne Ozanne)
“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires”
(2 Timothy 4:3)
Reading some of the Hatmaker’s Facebook comments it is clear the above verse is happening in our time. People make these teachers into celebrities and leaders because it’s what they want to hear but regardless what these teachers assert it is not truth based from scripture.
I think it would be good to point out as others have how this is being presented because it is rather clever and is used frequently to distort what the bible actually says.
The Hatmaker’s want to immediately give the impression that they are taking the high road of love and compassion and those who disagree are hard hearted bullies who have not studied the subject or the Holy Spirit would also reveal the same conclusion they have come to leaving those who disagree on the low road. (Ouch).
Jen also states –
“We are standing outside the city gates with people He asked us to stand with, and that is the beginning and end of it.”
So now if you disagree you are a hypocritical pharisee and she is outside the gates (a reference to Hebrews coming out of Judaism) end of story. This is a bad analogy. In reality she has caused division and harm in the church and become a heretic. It’s those who know the truth who care about those outside the church. She has sided with sin and wants to scold Christians who don’t.
From this lofty position they have established Brandon begins by making reference to what appears to be a quote from Micah 6:8 to ”love mercy and seek justice’. The problem here is that he has transposed the words and left out “and to walk humbly with thy God”.
Here is Micah 6:8 –
He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?
By cleverly putting mercy before justice you change the order in which God is telling us how to walk, you must have justice or there is no need for mercy! Justice means to determine what is true and what is right in our own lives then in the life of others, in this case we are talking about homosexuality, and then dealing with it with the same amount of mercy we ourselves would like to receive and hopefully that mercy would not include affirming to continue in sin.
Also by putting mercy first he then begins to use the “higher road” of love as a hermeneutic to interpret scripture and that begins with searching for pain in the lives of others. This is a faulty hermeneutic putting feelings and experience to understand God’s word rather than letting God’s word speak for itself with a literal hermeneutic, in other words, a normal understanding of what is being said in context. Feelings, experience, or even passion, are not good ways to determine what the bible is saying or finding truth.
Leaving out “to walk humbly with our God” leaves out for the reader to understand they are not the ones who get to decide what is just but must humble themselves, leave their understanding of justice, and allow the creator to tell us what is just, good and right.
With the hermeneutic of Feelings and experience (talking to those who have same sex attraction etc.) and some word gymnastics Brandon reveals something amazing that has been misunderstood for most of Christendom –
“Every verse in the Bible that is used to condemn a “homosexual” act is written in the context of rape, prostitution, idolatry, pederasty, military dominance, an affair, or adultery.”
This statement is the latest argument being put forth by gay affirming “more loving” activists and has been shown not to be true at all. Every verse in the bible on homosexuality makes no reference to the things he mentions they simply say that –
“If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.” (Leviticus 20:13).
Both of them are guilty for this act, in the case of rape only one is to be punished not both proving this is consensual, and man legalizing homosexual marriage does not change God’s word.
In Romans 1 it says –
“For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.”
Again “burned in their desire toward one another” is consensual. There is no mention in the bible that ii is okay to commit these acts if you are in a “civil union” or a committed consensual monogamous relationship, it says it is an abomination and those who practice these acts will not inherit the kingdom of God.
One of the most insidious things from both of them is their assurance to us that their “view of the word is still very high” and “we’ve found that the majority of affirming Christians have not “abandoned” the Bible in order to shift their thinking, as many accuse”. This is like something straight of of the Screwtape Letters, “we haven’t abandoned the bible we just understand it better now”. BALONEY!
Brandon closes with this verse –
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” – John 13:34-35
My question is, what kind of love affirms someone in sin that excludes them from eternal life with God?
Amen Q, “love and compassion” has sent more to hell than you think. This is the same arguement used for not judging, any judging, including righteous judgement as prescribed in scripture. Many would rather let people slide into hell rather than be accused of being unbrotherly, unloving or being judgemental. Sad indeed.
Amen Manny and Q.
Blessings:-}
This may be very bold in saying this. Abraham and LOT and family in Sodom And Gomorah And wait for it/////// ANGELS in attendance to bring Judgement here on not just sexual sin and perversement .The poor and needy???? LOT mentioned in new test ,His righteous soul vexed continually is stated.????Us today? Now for the tribe of Benjaim and how all the tribes of ISRAEl came against them and slew this tribe down to 600 men..We all need to read about the LEVITE AND HIS CONCUBINE in going back to BETHEL.In his travel he chose a israelite town than a town outside israel The latter may have been safer. But choices are made Benjaminites ? HOMOSEXUALS IN ISRAEL..This is not a nice story here believe me and holly wood would have a hard time in scripting this one .All it would have to do is follow the bible. While i am here the movies on biblical PATRIARCH not good just more error after error..Remember what Christ.said hypocripts.PRETENDERS / FALSIFERS /ACTORS. The sad thing here is in JUDGES every MANSWAY was RIGHt in their OWN EYES. Does this sound similar to this day. I leave this up to you to DISCERN people of GOD. There is a saying i have heard for many years now it goes like this. THE TRUTH HURTS. Thank god for TRUTH people we need more of them . P. S. the truth sorry TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE.Shalom or SELAH.
Sarah Bessey on Hatmaker: https://twitter.com/sarahbessey/status/792090740486660096
Sarah Bessey:
“Also, we would do well to remember that this actually isn’t just “an issue” let alone something “outside” – this is us. GLBTQ disciples are among us – and always have been – as a faithful witness to the resurrection of Jesus Christ. They are the church just as much as the rest of us, each deeply beloved by God and by their community. There is no us-and-them here. Have care with and for one another.”
This young lady needs The Lord and lots of prayer. I read her entire post referenced by Molly, so sad. Their notion of God is just not real. Again, having a form off godliness…..but denying power.
People don’t want truth anymore! They want their ears tickled, their preconceived notions to be as authoritative as God inspired scripture. These people are blind, pitiful, ignorant and headed for a huge surprise. Churchianity is so rotted it’s disgusting. These people have fully melded into the world.
Manny1962,
You just described the laodicean church of these last days. And you could not be more correct in that description.
Rev.3:14-18
“And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art WRETCHED, and MISERABLE, and POOR, and BLIND, and NAKED:
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.”
These are the fulfillment of this scripture.
Blessings:-} brother
Maranatha!!
Well said Manny and Ed. Sin is why Jesus died. Sin is what sends people to hell for ever and ever. If we don’t confront people with their sin, lovingly but directly … then we don’t love them.
Brothers! in spite of all the darkness falling on this world, let’s rejoice! Ed, SS, we have so much to be thankful for! It’s an amazing time to be alive in, we are seeing the culmination of history and the book of Revelation coming alive before our eyes! It seems we are always trying to stem the onslaught, it’s contending for the faith! I’m humbled by men (and the ladies here) such as yourselves, we truly are on the edge of forever, and we are trying to persuade others to come to Christ!
How blessed we should count ourselves to be and how humbled, as our Lord has opened our eyes to see! We are not perfect, but we will be one day! Let’s rejoice in our salvation and let’s reach as many as we can, strange days are headed our way, but The Lord will NOT test us beyond what we can bare. Amy and Marsha God bless you both for your tireless effort contending for the truth in Christ. Few are the days left!
Manny,
How true your words are. We are so close to His return and there is nothing but to reach as many as possible for the kingdom. And yes, thank you Marsha and Amy for the great job you do contending for the faith.
Blessings:-}
Very true, Manny, from another 1962 alumni! I don’t understand why so many Christians are worrying about a Clinton presidency and the supposed persecution that will come of it. No one wants persecution, but when it comes, it has always seen a great flowering of true belief. We have nothing to fear.
Amen brother! Christians need to seperate from the world’s system, that includes a politicization of Christianity! As if somehow voting for the “right” candidate will undo the evil being propagated! How many articles I’ve read in which the author blames the church for the evils of society, for not embracing it and the correct party, how we somehow let Jesus down by not being activists! Well, if we the small and faithful bride of Christ are to be blamed, then we would have to blame Paul and the apostles for the downfall of Rome! Never have I read in Holy Scripture where we had to be political activists to get our “rights.” Our rights are in our country from where we eagerly await our King. This here and now is passing away very, very fast! Jesus said we would have trouble and persecution or His name’s sake, we will not be tested beyond what we can bare! Our God is Holy, Just, Perfect and beyond reproach, trust in our Rock we will be fine! No matter how rough the seas get! Remember Peter, the boat and walking on water! Our God can do anything! Bless you brother! Keep on praying, lay all your cares upon His feet!
Manny, I absolutely love every word you’ve written here, and I found it to be VERY convicting. I have worried far too much about this election and its results. I HAVE remembered to trust my Lord, and I KNOW He will take care of us — His Bride — His Church — but as an American, I worry that we have done NOTHING to warrant His favor, in our current generation. We continue to slide down, as a nation, deeper and further into darkness — denying sin for what it is, and accepting sin as “normal and good.” Denying God’s Word — and accepting the approval of the world, as if that mattered at all. My biggest worry is that God will decide “its time” to repeat His words to the Romans, in the 1st chapter of Paul’s wonderful epistle: “God gave them over. He gave them over. He gave them over.” Thank you for sharing this … and may I ask your permission to share this with my friends on my FB page, while crediting you. I have been silent through this entire election season, but your words ring so true to me, and I really do WANT my friends and family to know where I stand. I couldn’t have said it any better than you have here. You stand in the stead of Christ and His righteousness.) God bless you!!
Good evening sister Ruth! Of course you may use what I wrote! I try to write with my brothers and sisters in mind! I know many worry about the state of affairs in this nation and in the world! Sister, remember where you come from! It’s not here, our Good Lord has granted you citizenship into His kingdom! Please, don’t worry about anything God will be a lamp unto your feet! What you must do is pray! Pray incessantly! The hour is so late! Remember, don’t get attached to this world, but cling to The Rock the Savior of your soul! America is going the way of all he nations in the world. As we stand America has fully rejected God, they did not want Him in government, schools, courtrooms and many pastors have dishonored His perfect Son and His righteous Word! Do not worry about anything! Presidents, congressmen, judges they’re all under the authority of God’s plan! Not man!
Is it possible to desecrate the sacraments—say, like—drinking goat’s blood and eating feces instead of juice and bread—and calling it the Lord’s Supper? (These things represent the sanctified body and blood of Jesus.)
I know that may sound ridiculous and extreme—but think on this. We mustn’t forget (as Christians, specifically)—that marriage between a man and a woman is supposed to represent the relationship between Christ and His Bride, the church. This is meant to be a “sanctified relationship”—the Creator/Redeemer bonded to His creation—His bride.
Eve was “made” from Adam’s rib because it is through the power of the Son of God that His Creation—his Bride–came into existence. It is also through the Son of God that the Bride finds her redemption. Essentially, the Bride finds both her origination and redemption in her Lord. She is the Body of Christ. The Son of God and His Bride definitely have different “roles to play” in this union.
What are we, as Christians, without our Lord and Savior? Are we “Lords unto ourselves?” What is our Lord without a people to redeem? Christ may still be deity, but He is NOT A CREATOR AND SAVIOUR—because there is no bride to redeem. The union of a “bride with a bride”, or a “groom with a groom” is a desecration of holy symbolism. This is the “message” of the gay union. It is an anti-Christ, anti-Lord message/symbolism.
When the definition of marriage is changed, the symbolism is desecrated and destroyed. It is made unholy. When that which is holy and true is made UNHOLY—all of society will suffer. (This is because our Creator made society to “work best” when it works in harmony with His design and symbolism. It’s embedded in nature. If His design is abandoned, then society will ultimately break down.)
Manny and Joy,
The basis for the Hatmaker’s misunderstanding of “holy matrimony” is deception. They have believed the hiss of the serpent saying that love is love no matter the union. Where does this stop once we have accepted such an abomination as homosexuality being “holy”? It does not. Pedophelia, polygamy. Anything goes once God’s word is rejected as the final authority for right and wrong.
Blessings:-}
Good afternoon Joy 1979,
Society is paying now for many transgressions against a Holy and Just God. Abortion and wanton Dirvorce without a biblical excuse (defiling the marriage bed), rampant homosexuality and its consequences from STDs to suicides and mental diseases, oh it’s paying. And people who presume to speak for The Lord like Mrs. Hatmaker and lead others to sin (by saying she received revelation from The Lord that “holy” gay marriage is ok) are guilty of many sins, but the worse is presuming to speak in the name of The Lord and proclaiming God said homosexuality is acceptable. They’re playing with fire.
The Hatmakers are just a bunch of hating heresy makers.
Yes, homosexuality IS a sin, and God will come out ‘swinging’ at those who disagree when He pours out His wrath upon all the earth for sins such as homosexuality! Sadly, they will be on the wrong side of the fence when it gets unleashed…
I am thinking of leaving the protestant church over the kind of people who have left responses here. You are to me the definition of evil and love the Bible more than you love people, not at all what Jesus did.
I have cancelled all of my dealings with Lifeway and I will also do it with Berean. May you all find your little hate -illed Bible thumping world as small and contained as you all would like it.
For me, I choose LOVE, like Jesus did.
Did you know that the program that was touted as the therapy for gays has been discontinued because it does not work. How do you explain that?
Think about it!
“For me, I choose LOVE, like Jesus did.”
Matthew 7:15
Matthew 23:25-26
Acts 20:28-30
Jesus did not “love” those that twisted scripture!
[Did you know that the program that was touted as the therapy for gays has been discontinued because it does not work.]
I know people who used to be homosexual. Some of them came from a “program” and others didn’t go through any program. I will say that those who were in the program had more struggles. It’s not that God can’t change homosexuals, it’s that the programs aren’t always the right answer.
God does change homosexuals into heterosexuals because that’s how He created us.
Carol, if encouraging your friends to engage in a lifestyle that God states clearly destroys them spiritually and leads them down the path of eternal separation from their Savior is your definition of love, then we’re reading very different dictionaries. Because that sounds like hate to me.
Unfortunately, the road to hell is paved with “love.” Many think it’s “loving” to accept sin, look the other way, and let the person happily wallow in it while on the slippery wide road…….their excuse: don’t judge others, be accepting, you’re a homophobe, you’re a bigot or worse. Meanwhile a human being is sacrificed on the altar of Political Correctness, all because someone put THEMSELVES first, see the irony? It’s the ultimate selfishness, putting someone’s sensibilities before their salvation! Truly these are the days when evil is called good and good evil!
Carol,
The Jesus you love is not the Christ of the bible, he is a god of your understanding. You haven’t a clue who the God of the Bible is —- for He is holy, holy, holy. He absolutely hates all sin and poured out His wrath on His own Son for all who believe because of His hatred of sin.
This is an excerpt from Ralph Venning’s sermon, ‘the sinfulness of sin’ – http://www.apuritansmind.com/wp-content/uploads/FREEEBOOKS/TheSinfulnessofSin-RalphVenning.pdf
“The wicked and the one who loves violence–His soul hates!” Psalm 11:5
God hates man for sin! It is not only sin, but sinners that God hates–and that for sin! It is said of God, that He hates the workers of iniquity (Psalm 5:5); not only the works of iniquity–but the workers of it.
It is because of sin, that the merciful God says, “Their Maker has no compassion on them, and their Creator shows them no favor!” Isaiah 27:11
This is the worst that can be spoken of the venom of sin, that in a sense, and to speak after the manner of men–it has put hatred into God Himself! Sin has made the Lord hate and destroy His own workmanship!” R. Venning
It is obvious you haven’t a clue how wicked all of mankind is, and you take one attribute of God and run with it, which gives you a lopsided ‘god’. However, the God of scripture will take vengeance on unrepentant sinners.
This is a part of the modern day accursed gospel, ‘Jesus loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life’. You will not find that anywhere in the bible.
I & my boyfriend was planning to get married last month, just last week we had some argument that made him get angry on me just because of the argument, he said we will not marry me again and the next day he left me and we broke up. I still loved him and I wanted him to marry me, for me to get him back i had no choice than to contacted dr_mack@yahoo. com to help me and he helped me to bring my lover back to me so we can continue our plan to be married. he came back after 3 days, we are happily married now.
Spam…………..
Romans 1:21-32
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.