How does one believe in the Gospel without believing that Scripture is 100 percent truth? That it is our sufficient authority, and God’s own inerrant, infallible, breathed-out Word? How do you easily convince thousands of fans that those Christians who believe such things are somehow idol worshipers? Talk about a heart-breaker. An extremely influential Christian celebrity has not only departed from Christian doctrine, he is arrogantly throwing other Christians under the bus for believing (gasp) that the Bible is true.
Two-time Dove Award winner Don 30 Francisco is a singer/songwriter best known for songs like He’s Alive, Adam, Adam Where are You” and I’ll Never Let Go of Your Hand. Surprisingly, Francisco is now scolding Christians who believe that the Bible is without error. In fact if you believe in the infallibility of Scripture, you are “dead,” and need to stop drinking the Kool-Aid, Don says. He posted this message on his Facebook page:
I love the Scriptures. Anyone who’s heard my songs knows that, and I shouldn’t even have to say it. God speaks to me through them constantly. The Bible is the most wonderful book in the world. Those who have given their lives to preserve it and translate it didn’t die in vain, for without them we wouldn’t know that God came to Earth and lived as one of us, died on the Cross to show us His love and forgiveness, and rose from the dead to take away all our fears. And those are just the main points….
My problems begin with those who would try to make this book into a god. There is only one Foundation, Jesus Christ, and anyone who attempts to build on another one will be using an unstable and deadly cornerstone. I understand those of you who have ‘drunk the Kool-Aid’ (believed in the inerrancy/infallibility thing because you’ve been taught to believe it– I used to be one of you), but it’s time to arise from among the dead and believe the Gospel. For those of you who intentionally use this doctrine to control others, may God have mercy on your soul! May you soon travel the Damascus Road as Paul did. source
I think the mercy needed here is for Don and his adoring fans agreeing with him, rather than those who cling to the truth of God’s breathed-out Word. Breaking news: the Bible judges us, not vice versa. Where did this arrogance come from? Why are thousands so readily thanking him and agreeing with him? Why did I get blocked from his Facebook page, and my comments deleted? What could possibly have influenced him in this dreadful direction?
Sadly, it appears that Rob Bell has influenced Don and Wendy, even in denying the Doctrine of Hell:
Sounds a lot like what Brian McLaren has said. Final question: Do women of God speak like this? Are we not to judge the fruits of those who call themselves “Christian?” Please continue to pray for this couple that they and their many followers would turn to the truth and away from worldliness and unholy language:
Hat Tip Jose Estrada.
To all who think Rob Bell has anything to offer but hell needs to hang out with him and Oprah. Don Francisco has written several of my favorite Christian songs, and now they are tainted. So sad. I am a musician that has been playing for well over 40 years, and to see blasphemy from DF is heart wrenching. As someone else eluded, Good will be calkled evil, and evil good……we see it in so many ways today, from the influence of eastern mysticism, to out right lies of the devil. Don’t be dissuaded because of fools like this, God’s Word is the measuring stick for all truth, without it there is nothing to compare to. You can’t arbitrarily determine truth as you see it, or base it on feeling, (feelings are not an accurate gauge of the truth). But God, Creator of the universe, and sacrificed Son, and Holy Spirit, revealer of all truth, especially through His Word, says this is the tool to use when you wat to know Him. The beginning, the end. This lie that believing God’s Word is not 100 % reliable, good for all things Godly. Believing this does not make it an idol, a god. Don Francisco I feel is way off the mark here, and moving in a very dangerous direction, along with Oprah, and Rob Bell, and a plethora of other ungodly “leaders”, the blind following the blind…right to hell.
Brand new commenter to this forum [Is that the right word?]. You stated your opinion very well, but about ” Don’t be dissuaded because of fools like this, . . .”, check out Matthew 5:22, which reads in the New American Bible (NAB) as follows:
“But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgement, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa’, will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.”
Those are Christ’s words, not my own. All Christians are brothers and sisters, which means (in my opinion) that, if they are to be corrected on doctrine (etc.), it is paramount that it be done lovingly as you hopefully would with your own (related by DNA) brother or sister.
Notice that Jesus says “liable to” and NOT “will be thrown into”. This verse is a warning to discipline one’s emotions and criticism, not a sentence passed.
‘Raqa’ translates roughly to ‘imbecile’, ‘blockhead’, etc., and is thus a form of abuse not quite as bad as ‘fool’.
‘Gehenna’ has a dual meaning [parallelism]: 1. The Valley of Himmon, which (if I understand correctly) was approx. 18 miles outside of Jerusalem, and was the city’s garbage dump, where garbage was burned to ashes (ie. destroyed); and 2. The spiritual place where souls are destroyed . . . which we call Hell (about which there are different, contradicting doctrines, all of which will be “tested as through fire” [1st Corinthians 3:13], with all incorrect doctrines being burned away).
Just a well-intentioned, hopefully not harsh, heads up.
Oh hey, almost forgot:
Reading these comments, it seems obvious to me that nobody (including Don and Wendy Francisco) are saying that the Bible “is not . , . reliable, good for all things Godly”. It’s the ‘100%, 0 errors’ doctrine that is being challenged!
Exactly the point Stephen.. its very clear that Amy Spreeman ( the person who posted this ) has taken everyone south with this one – totally misinterpreted what Don said. No one person will completely understand the scriptures and get it right – everyone thinks they have got it – cause it makes “sense” to them and to a few others and so we have “groups” of thoughts.
We all believe that the scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit (God). Jesus (God) said “we cannot even understand the things of the earth…” and here we are trying to unravel the things of the heaven. Spiritual matters with earthly wisdom. We cannot make sense out of scriptures but have them revealed to us in its completeness and its power – and the meaning will always be the same to all man when the Holy Spirit – our great teacher reveals the word to those who can understand the things of the spirit. The Holy Spirit does not use a bible version ( or biblical grammar) to teach us his words- nor does he contradict the scriptures. The bible says “I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” Heb (10:16). Whether the bible is 100% correct or not, God is not limited to that. He will write the same words in all of us. So lets not pick on words however wrong they may seem to you – the holy spirit will do his work if any man seeks to know the truth.
We all have came out of some errors and have learnt of the Holy Spirit – and those who have heard his voice – what does he say each time. ” Love God with all that you are and your neighbor as yourself ” . when you love a neighbor you will want to correct him and God will bring about correction quicker when you do this in love, but when you correct without love and anointing, you will do more damage in his life and you will be responsible for that – be careful. People who talk alot with their heads and have yet to realise how much God does when we talk with love. Its another dimension. Its a place where God achieves the most in us collectively then we can ever do with our human reasoning.
He may even use you by preparing the persons heart and giving you the “anointed” words that will go straight in and cut like a double edged sword and bring about conviction and correction. Correction based on self-righteous attitudes will not do, regardless of the “sense” it makes, it will only bring about arguments. Correction has to be anointed and the speaker has to be qualified of God to do that , the qualification like Paul said – one who does all things in Love. You may even be caught wrong about you own views about the other person – if you gave God the space to do so. The things of the spirit are not for
intellectuals..its for the spiritual and there is only one who is spiritual- our Lord Jesus. When he is in us, all things will fall into place.
God does not agree with disputing words and will not intervene in a tit-for-tat judgmental situation, but amongst those who seek the truth quietly, bearing with each others disagreements and waiting upon the Lord to bring about his correction in his own good time. Our viewpoint is horizontal and we cannot see beyond the horizon. God sees from the above, and he is pulling this all together since the last 6000 years – let him complete it – give him the space. ” When two or three ( each having his own disagreements) are gathered in His name,( in “Love” ) Lo and behold, he his amongst them – doing what my friends ? I think you all know the answer – He is the Truth and he dispels all confusion and brings about understanding and oneness like no man can – building his one true Church.
May God Bless us all , and may we resolve this matter quickly before the weaker ones stumble and fall. Every word that you speak will hold you accountable, think about each one before you say it !!!
Dear precious Christian.
Your words are so wise in amongst so many un-Christlike responses.
I don’t think anyone could argue with anything you have written .
I especially love the way you have summed up by saying “He is the truth and He dispels all confusion and brings about understanding and oneness like no man can – building His one true Church”.
I am a Christian living in South Wales, UK. I am now in my 70s and believe that the Lord has opened my understanding so much in the last few years. I read His word knowing it alone is trustworthy and I look to Him to give me understanding in the essence of what it contains – I look for the golden thread that He shows me where there is no contradiction. The Lord, who is the Living Word, truly is our Good Shepherd.
I was also wondering about your statement that “Don Francisco has written several of my favorite Christian songs, and now they are tainted”.
I’ve long believed that anything that we may learn about an artist, especially after a song was written, has no bearing on the song itself.
The lyrics and the melody has not changed, and where a song is concerned, that is all that matters.
I love lots of different songs/music, but that doesn’t mean that I would necessarily advocate the artists that composed or sang them as folks to emulate.
So, hey, disagree with Don Francisco’s opinions as much as you want, but why deny yourself in listening to his songs (that you always loved, long before Don and Wendy expressed their opinion on the ‘100%, 0 errors’, doctrine, and NOT on the Bible is ‘divinely inspired and reliable’ doctrine.
Check out my other comments and let me know what you think.
I am a Christian living in South Wales, UK, and have just stumbled into these responses to Don Francisco’s stance on the inerrancy of the Bible.
I haven’t read any comments further than this, but just want to say how encouraged I am by what you are bringing to this whole argument.
I was given an LP of some of Don Francisco’s songs not long after I became a Christian at the age of thirty (43 years ago) and was deeply moved by them. You could tell his heart and soul were in those Gospel accounts of Jesus. There is an undeniable depth of insight in the words of many of his songs. I believe that ability can only be given by God, through the Holy Spirit. I have just recently picked up on those songs again via the internet.
I understand completely what Don is talking about with first and second hand experience of God and our Saviour. I, too, have had that life changing encounter. The overwhelming love of God and the reality of hearing the voice of our Good Shepherd enables us to trust Him – more than anyone else – to open up to our understanding the truth of His Word. We have nothing to fear. The Holy Spirit will teach, guide and UNITE God’s people in the Truth. Doctrines of men have grossly misrepresent the love of God and can never produce the ‘righteousness’ that comes from Him.
There is a world of difference in saying that not every word is EXACTLY how God ordained it to be and saying the Bible isn’t true!
We have to be willing to read the Bible prayerfully, especially with regard to doctrines that are in direct contradiction to the character of our God and our Saviour. The key to understanding is there (as with your reference to Gehenna).
God bless you, brother. I am so thankful for your input.
Just another fine example of following man and man’s poisonous ideologies. Avoid.
“Open the eyes of my heart, Lord! Open the eyes of my heart! I want to see You—I want to see You! Open the eyes of my heart, Lord! Open the eyes of my heart! I want to see You! I want to see You!!! See You, high and lifted up, shining in the light of Your glory! Pour out Your power and love as we cry, HOLY, HOLY, HOLY! HOLY, HOLY, HOLY!” And open the eyes of those hearts that have yet to be able to divorce themselves from church doctrine and bask in the light of Your love, Your mercy, Your grace, and Your instruction. Set them free from the lies of the enemy that hold them in limbo and keeps them from experiencing Your peace, joy, power, and love. In Jesus precious name!!!
From Romans 10 Madeline : righteousness by the law is unattainable but through Christ , who has fulfilled the law, it is attainable to all who believe and receive Him.
Roight you are Pat, and Madeline [Ms. Fisher] obviously has . . . So, like she said, “In Jesus precious name”! 🙂
Meant to say, Ms. Fisher has obviously “believed and received him”, as it is obvious that you have. 🙂
Now that he has come out publicly…I can reveal who I was having the Biblical debate with…Don’s wife Wendy and I were having a Biblical debate about the Truth of Scripture…
She/they is/are lost as a goose in a fog when it comes to Scripture…She is liberal as they come. She got mad at me because I challenged her to prove her claims which she could not do…
I also contacted Charisma to look into their twisted interpretation of Scripture as well…
Obviously, they both are CLUELESS when it comes to the Truth of Scripture…I even challenged them to a meeting in Ft. Collins, CO since they live in Livermore, CO not far from Ft. Collins…I never received a response…Go Figure!
Reply to Gregg Huestis’ post of July 7, 2015:
Brand new poster to this debate. Not having a record (transcript) of your online debate with Mrs. Francisco, I’m somewhat unclear about what you are mean when you say you “challenged her to prove her claims”. How did you phrase it? Obviously, if you phrase what you say to someone in one way, a debate continues. Phrase it a different way (ie. “coming on too strong”, becoming condescending or disrespectful, etc. — which, let me be clear here, I am NOT saying you were or did either of those things) and your opponent (Mrs. Francisco) in the debate gets understandably upset and quits debating.
Again, you say that you “challenged” them to meet you. Why on God’s green (but quite polluted by mankind) Earth would anyone agree to meet someone that they had, until that point, dealt (interacted) with online only?! They really didn’t know you from Adam. For all they knew, you could be one of those people who would bring a gun with him. Not saying you are one of those people; I’m just hoping to point out where they were coming from in not responding.
I’ve actually found that their grasp of scripture is the opposite of “lost as a goose in a fog” (which is a clever turn of phrase, much better than the condemnatory “CLUELESS” used later).
Check out http://www.donfrancisco.com/mythbusters with your Bible in hand.
I’ve only had the chance to study, not read, Myth #4, 10, and 14 so far, but I’ve been quite impressed. Check them out and let me know what you think . . . after (at least) two days of mulling them over. Like I said, study, not read.
Who or what is this Charisma that you “contacted . . . to look into their . . . ”
I didn‘t see any reference to the possibility that your belief vis-a-vis your debate could be incorrect, even if you didnt believe it was wrong for a single second. If I understand the concept correctly, a debate is based on either side being willing to concede their position if they can‘t mount a logical, non-emotional defense. If that basic boundary condition is not met on both sides, then what you have is not a debate; it’s an arguement.
I had a private debate with Wendy as well after learning this. My experience was very similar to yours. Very sad then and I’m still very sad for them now.
this breaks my heart as Don Francisco has ministered to me through his music for over 30 years and I would just like to say that you cannot separate Jesus from His Word and God is not a man that He should lie and His Word is truth and the truth as you know it will set you free there is no other
If this is true it is shocking to me.He was one of the first christian singers I listened to when I became a christian,his songs just touched my heart and spirit.I was blessed to hear him live.To say that there is error in God’s word and that some of it is not true is blaspheme.God’s word is his word and testimony to mankind.He is not a man that he should lie.Men lie but God does not!This kind of stuff can wreak enormous damage in the body of Christ.If this is true and I pray that it is not,I pray that God would have mercy upon him or anyone like him who says this, bring conviction and lead them to repentance.Don you are just a man,perhaps you’ve been listening to other men who listened to other men who had lies whispered into their ears and the lies took root in their hearts.Your music and songs influence a large amount of people,don’t let the enemy use u as a tool 2 bring destruction into the body of Christ,it’s already wounded enough!Don’t take the precious words of life and trample them under your feet like pearls under the feet of swine.Who has bewitched you!
Barry…Hate to break it to you…but it’s DEAD on…I know…I was debating Don’s wife Wendy on Facebook…that is until she blocked me and deleted what I wrote because she could NOT refute what I said…it’s easier to ignore the truth then contend for it you know…
I Facebook Messaged Don cuz I could NOT believe that he would agree with her tree hugging twisted theology…but guess what….HE DOES!
They both grieve my spirit that someone who was such a blessing to so many as lowered himself to the level of a tree huggar, New Age Guru…Very sad but also VERY true too.
For the most part Gregg, Wendy moderates Don’s FB page as well as her own. When she writes on his behalf you may not know who is actually speaking. At the end of Solomons life he was drawn away by his foreign wives.
Have you any idea how backbiting and foul this sounds? You should be ashamed, Pat!
A straightforward question here – how can one ‘blaspheme’ against a book, no matter how good that book is?
Careful, careful, careful. Your well-worded comment to Mr. Francisco that “perhaps you’ve [he’s] been listening to other men who listened to other men who had lies whispered into their ears and the lies took root in their hearts.” does work both ways. How sure are you that it’s not you who have somehow came to believe the wrong doctrines . . . despite your obvious faith and good intentions? Glass houses and splinters in the eye, and all that.
I’m not the least bit surprised by this. There is a large “grace” movement that has abandoned the Gospel message that Jesus died for our sins, and have replaced justification with “tolerance”.
Uhmm, . . . I believe that you need to reread the first paragraph of Mr. Francisco’s comment. Don has most clearly stated he is NOT a member of whatever “large “grace” movement” you are referring to.
BTW, which denominations are teaching THAT grace doctrine? Just wondering . . .
Sadly Deceiving spirits take out anyone
Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.1 Peter 5:8
Still, check out my other posts both above and below.
It’s sad just the other day I was sharing a song by him to a friend. Now this… All we can do is look to scripture and find out what happened.
1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
Jesus also said those endure to the end will be saved. How sad.
Good news, Robert:
As 1 Corinthians 3:15 says, both you and Don Francisco WILL BE SAVED. It’s just that one of you believes the wrong doctrines (which will be burned up) and one of you believes the right doctrines (and will be rewarded).
Not saying who is who, since I have zero right to judge anyone, but can certainly express my opinion of someone’s comments.
Oh, and of course it’s possible that each of you believe some correct doctrines and each of you believe other incorrect doctrines. Ditto with myself and every other Christian out there.
Forgot to ask you to check out my other comments both above and below, but especially my replies to Bob and Dr. Ann Smit above.
Let me know what you think as I believe it will help me to progress in my faith as a Christian.
2 Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
What I believe Don Francisco wrote is that these so called preachers whom we see on tv constantly are tacking the true word and attacking Christians to do what THEY TELL US TO DO, If you don’t do this and give us your money, for one, you will be doomed to Hell, I don’t think for one minute that all Don and Wendy did all their lives was to wind up in such a situation as this. I hold onto all their songs as TRUTH BUT WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW IS NOT TRUTH.
DON AND WENDY HAS NEVER SAID THE BIBLE ISN’T TRUE. From what I gather they have a problem with what the so called preachers attempt to drill into our minds every day. GIVE THEM MONEY SO THEY CAN STAY ON TV AND PREACH, NOT FROM THE GOSPEL BUT FROM THEIR DISGRACEFUL HEARTS.
i believe they were just trying to make a point.
I hear you…but you need to read his Facebook page and see if you still think this?
I had hoped this as well…but I was sadly mistaken once I read his FB page.
with all due respect, her very words do not show Christs Glory.
“her words” . . .
Are you referring to Ms. Georgianna Wilt’s words or to Mrs. Wendy Francisco’s words?
Please clarify. Thanks in advance. 🙂
This only started after Don married Wendy. I am so disappointed and have prayed for him/them to get out of the cult they believe in. Also agree with one of the statements above. Wendy says she is a Christian, however, the filth that comes out of her mouth, when someone calls her on her pagan belief, is stunning.
I too have debated with Wendy via email a number of years back. I asked her to have a rethink re Don’s endorsement of Frank Viola’s book “From Eternity to Here” as Frank Viola promotes mysticism. Wendy said she’d look at what I’d said but I did wonder if the Franciscos had sold out to Christian mysticism as have many others. It is very sad indeed. Jesus is the Word as John 1 tells us. Therefore the Word is as Jesus Christ is – without error. There’s a warning at the end of the book of Revelation that should be heeded but we live in an age when even those calling themselves Christians feel they are above God’s Word. We are meant to worship God and be thankful for His Word which teaches us the Truth. It is our spiritual food to keep us from error. I think Don Francisco is listening to men rather than reading the Word.
I hear what you are saying, but I have noticed that folks here may — keyword being ‘may’ — be failing to point out that:
Jesus is the Word of God [capital W], and is (of course) without error.
The Bible is the word of God [lowercase W].
Those capital and lower-case w’s are good to keep straight.
The Word of God [Jesus] is not the same thing as the word of God [the Bible].
Check out my other posts above and below.
Let me know what you think.
As long as one believes that Jesus is the living son of God, has a personal relationship with our Savior and doesn’t hurt the children of God, isn’t going to die and go to hell BUT all will be accountable for their foolishness . Stop flapping your jaws against Don and/or gays, liars, thieves and murderers and pray for them and pray for our messed up world we live in and our corrupt government. Do that and you will really be serving your Lord and Savior. Love and prayers to you.
ummmm.. I think you are putting words in his mouth. he doesn’t make even 10% of the claims you say he does. Also if the bible translations are without error.. then how come when two different translations are read side by side they can say two very different things in some passages? Worth thinking about. Either way, it’s the most amazing and life changing book that ever happened and is truly the word of God (translated time and again by men who tried their best). God Bless you and God Bless Don.
I have personally seen Wendy “hurt the children of God.” with her lying beliefs. She is trying her best to change the thinking and beliefs of those who are struggling, AND she has turned those not saved AWAY from the truth., with her writings.
And for Grant, there are theologians who have researched and know for sure the Bible God’s Word, written by the Holy Spirit is inerrant. The problem you have noticed is in the mistranslations of the Bible, and not by men who are trying their best. The truth can be found if one researches, as many have. The truth of God’s Word, and also the perversions that satan has published by his people. Need to find one that is a TRUE translation and go with that.
Wendy Francisco here. After many years in ministry, and after visiting many many Christian places worldwide, and often, it’s our conclusion that the cross finished completely the work of redemption, that it will reconcile humanity to God, and that doctrines of hell, (for which there is no New Testament word), are completely manmade, for the purpose of frightening people into converting, and controlling them after they do. If saying God is love, and love never fails is liberal, that’s okay. But I am pretty amazed by the hate and distortion here — not very Christian. It is yet another example of how dead religion places value on doctrine above actual people. It literally makes people hateful and fear based. Yes Grant, thanks for the posts above… distortion is one aspect of being scapegoated. And when you threaten religious systems, this is what happens…what you see on this page. Don has always challenged dead religion. He always will. If we were trying to say murder was okay, we’d probably get less flack.
Persecution is promised to those who follow Christ and seek to spread his gospel among the zealous but uninformed church goers who need to see Jesus as the lover He is.
Wendy, you obviously have not studied the New Testament, as there are numerous mentions of hell, which can also be seen in the Old Testament. It is incredible that you believe you can cancel so much of God’s Word, while leading people to the hell you say does not exist. Those who believe in Jesus, must also believe His words, which you do not. There are many who pray that you would repent from the evil you spread. You accuse those who disagree with you as hateful and many other words. You are not a standard on Jesus and you are worthy of criticism when you reject the words of the only Savior there is. He is your hope, and you need to repent in sackcloth and ashes.
You may “mark them” [those you judge to be false teachers and believers whom you believe create division] and you may disfellowship them from your society but I read that NOTHING can separate a Christ Follower from the love of God. For to God alone will his own children give an account. And his children are all those who have believed on and received Jesus. He is their just judge and he has already passed them from death to life through his death and resurrection. I may disagree on the fine points of “theology” and I do not hold to certain doctrines held by others here but the love of God compels me to love and support by standing with all of Gods children. God is fully able to bring revalation of who he is to all he chooses. In what so ever manner or measure you judge another you also will be judged. May all his children be clothed in kindness, gentleness, humility, patience and compassion with love and mercy for all.
Sorry, I am out of here. When people say things like “you must be marked”, they are mafia. It is very hard to take the hate, blindness, and people so ignorant of true Christian doctrine. It is hard to make inroads when people hold their doctrines above even the scripture they say they believe literally, and when they ignore the verses you cite, as if their verses had more weight than your verses even though they are from the same bible. This is an indoctrinated person, who has no idea what she is saying. “Marking people” is hate. And hate is satan, not God. I’m out.
Of course you are Wendy…
Let me remind you that when we were friends on Facebook, I posted a post about making God & His Word First Place, FINAL Authority in EVERYTHING that we do and teach….
You viciously, sarcastically attacked what I said which was much of a surprise to me…then when I tried to respond to your posts you would ONLY tolerate a few exchanges and then you unfriended and possibly even blocked me because you could not properly refute what I had said…It’s easier to ignore something than defend it ISN’T IT!
I challenged you to met me in a PUBLIC place in Ft. Collins, CO so that we could discuss this issue further, but you would have none of it. I GET that you may have been concerned for you safety (possibly), however, the WHOLE point of debating further with you was NOT meant for evil but rather because I wanted to reach out to a man and his wife whom I respected for so many years…All I wanted to do was hopefully properly discuss the issue of the Authority of God’s Word and our command by God Himself to submit to His Word and allow His Word to defend us.
However, I didn’t even get that far before you unfriended me…You were VERY upset and using some profane words to express this as well.
I’m sorry that you were not willing to discuss and defend your views on God’s Word, which sounds like something that Rob Bell would write. I don’t know much about Bell, but from what I have read that he has said, unless it was taken out of context, his views are this Universalist “theology”.
Yes, I agree that the Lord died on the cross for ALL and for the forgiveness for ALL…However, that doesn’t mean that EVERYONE will accept and benefit from this.
I could offer you a gift ALL DAY LONG, but IF you refuse to accept it then you will NOT be able to benefit from that gift…That was my point.
My reason for contacting you and interacting with you on this subject was ok of genuine concern NOT to be hateful and sarcastic to you or your opinion.
I am STILL open to discussing this further. I mean you and Don NO HARM whatsoever. I just wanted to discuss this issue with you and possibly understand your position better and/or rebut these issues IF needed.
I TRULY hope that you are not so entrenched in your beliefs that you are unwilling to hear the other side of the debate?
Response to Gregg Huestis’ post dated February 14, 2017 at 7:50 A.M.:
I was wondering if you kept a copy of your posts and Ms. Francisco’s responses of your debate on Facebook. It sounds like what you were trying to say is a matter of great importance to every Christian, regardless of denomination. I ask because I do keep a copy of every post I make along with responses I receive or (for that matter) any post that I simply find interesting. This was something I began to do whenever I was reading (or posting to) an article here on the Berean Research forums, both for my own records and because posts do sometimes get removed from forums on the internet (ie. Facebook, etc.). For example, Ms. Francisco’s removal of your posts despite the constitutional guarantee to free speech that every American is afforded, and most take for granted. It’s always unfortunate when people then turn around and deny others that same constitutional right. Website administrators (and everyone on Facebook is their own website administrator) are supposed to police posts that break the law, like rascist posts or other hate-related material, but all too often use that authority to remove any post they don’t like even though those posts do not violate any federal, state, or municipal laws. Such censorship is unfortunate because it is simply not fair or equitable, just as Ms. Francisco’s removal of your posts was unfortunate and unfair. Christians are instructed to be “perfect as [our] heavenly Father is perfect” [Matthew 5:48] and God is most certainly fair and unbiased, applying the same divine standards to everyone. He doesn’t “play favourites” or discriminate, right?
I haven’t been a Christian very long and value the free exchange of opinions on forums as I find it very useful for my spiritual growth (1 John 4:1 and 2 Timothy 3:16), and when censorship occurs, it violates Romans 14:13 and thus violates God’s standards and God’s word, the Bible.
Anyway, it would be great to be able to read the debate you had with Ms. Francisco as I’m sure I could learn a lot from it.
A friend of mine, John, gave me the tablet that I’m using because he knew that I didn’t have a computer and couldn’t afford one. I don’t know if he bought it or it was given to him, and I wasn’t going to ask. Gift horses, you know? I don’t really understand how this technical stuff works, but maybe that’s the IP thing you mentioned.
So, who is this guy anyway? I’ve seen some of his posts and some contain some interesting ideas that I hadn’t seen anywhere before. Some are just fun to read and some are just plain wrong, but (so what?) they’re just opinions. Nothing harmful about opinions. You agree or you disagree or sometimes you reply. It’s like using a remote control to change the channel if you’re watching a show that upsets you.
Does the “:-/” mean he did something to you or someone else? None of my beeswax, of course. I guess the only question to ask is whether or not, as a Christian, can whomever he did whatever to forgive him? Still, like I said, none of my beeswax.
You sound just like Bishop Carlton Pearson. I am appalled. Please look him up on YouTube. I do not understand how someone who is married to someone who has written songs like your husband can fall into believing this belief that apparently is becoming prominent among Christians. It is called universal reconciliation.
I love Don Francisco songs. And it makes me so very sad that he and you and many others are falling into this lie of the devil.
Amen to everything from “but I read that . . . ”
Now, this whole “marking” and “disfellowship” part that you said before that point. So far, I’ve studied approx. 2/3rds of the New American Bible (NAB or NAV, for version) since January 2016 when I became a Christian, but I have yet to read anything about this.
Could folks please provide the scriptures — all of them, NOT just some of them — on this subject to advance my understanding of the Bible? In advance, thanks!
My post above on September 25, 2016 was to Mr. Pat Hallum’s post of February 15, 2016.
Hi Mrs. Francisco:
Could you please look over my comments both below and above, as I believe that it would help me progress in my faith as a Christian, and especially my replies to Bob and Dr. Ann Smit?
I definitely agree that some of the doctrines regarding Hell are entirely man-made and have no basis in either the Old and New Testament. However, there IS mention of something tangentially related to Hell, except that it is nothing like what many Christians think it is.
As you already know, when one interprets what is written in the Old Testament, it is entirely consistent with the New Testament . . . promises made and then fulfilled. That is how one can (subjectively) know that one’s understanding comes throuugh the Holy Spirit.
Keep up the great work in your Mythbusters and in your inspirational music, and please don’t give up trying to explain what scripture says to those who insist it says something else entirely. Oh, and please pass on my best to your husband.
Oh, was there ever a ‘Songs of the Spirit Volume 2’? I loved the first volume and it completely explained Job to me (which I never understood until that point) . . . thank you for that.
Jerry Silvia here
Christian singer/songwriter for close to 40 years. what I have learned:
I’m like a garden hose: useless until connected to the source.
For many – the institutional church has become an obstacle to grace as so skillfully
explained by Don and Wendy. it’s impossible to write as they do without being “connected”.
The bible is the “word” ABOUT the Word.
The bible won’t save you. The church won’t save you.
Only Jesus saves.
You want the Truth? Go straight to the source
To state the doctrine of hell is ‘man-made’ is to call Christ a liar. This woman needs to read Luke 16 starting at verse 19 over and over. Their ‘god’ is all love and will save humanity? God saves sinners, yes. However, not all of ‘humanity’ will be saved. God is first and foremost holy, holy, holy. The God of scripture looks nothing like Wendy’s ‘god’.
This is what happens when unregenerate sinners cherry pick through the bible and form a ‘god of their understanding’. They haven’t any understanding, so how can they know the God of the bible? Unless you are born again, you cannot see the kingdom of God. You cannot understand/comprehend spiritual truth without the new birth. So, your ‘god’ becomes whatever you make it out to be. In this case, all love, no wrath or hell.
Is it any wonder the Lord warned about deception in Matthew 24:4 after being asked about the sign of His coming and the end of the age? Look at how rampant deception is; people like Wendy and Don are deceivers leading their followers down the broad road.
Truth comes only to those who have ‘ears to hear’. Anyone can put their own spin on the bible and call it ‘truth’. Unless the Spirit of God has regenerated you, you will not know truth at all. Deception and delusion permeate many who profess to be Christian and have a form of ‘godliness’, yet are void of the power.
Lyn – you’re speaking to the choir on this thread. I believe that spiritual truth is spiritually discerned and come from God alone as he imparts that truth to his children. My prayer for the deceived is that they hear from those who know him who will use their faith to present the truth in love and then pray for deceived to come their senses.
Bereans, my tushie. Just a bunch of clanging gongs, if you ask me. Your article is full of spin and bias. Wendy and Don are the real deal. You guys, well, I’d like to introduce you to Jesus!
Actually, in the New American Bible, the word Jesus used is ‘Gehenna’ and everything I’ve read so far indicates something only tangentially related to what many, if not most, Christians seem to THINK Hell is.
Still, if you think I’m wrong, can you provide me with the scriptural verses to help me advance in my faith?
Refer to my comment to Dr. Ann Smit above, and check out my comments on this ‘inerrant and infallible, 100% correct, 0 errors’ subject both above and below.
Well said Wendy! Keep up the good work.
Jesus is the Word made flesh, not the Bible. Shame most folks think people saying this have no value for the Bible. Just not true. But we have to understand the Bible properly and through the lens of Christ.
Someone here wrote: “Jesus is the Word as John 1 tells us. Therefore the Word is as Jesus Christ is – without error.”
This conclusion doesn´t even make sense. Yes, Jesus IS the Word, the Word became flesh. Not the Bible. Where does it say that? And yes, Jesus is without error and that´s why he can say: You have heard that it was said…But I tell you….
That’s true as far as it goes Amy, but what about Jesus’s word in John 14:26 regarding the Holy Spirit bringing His teaching to them and bringing to their rememberance his words?
This is unscriptural. Jesus said my sheep hear my voice. He taught Nicodemus how to see and enter the Kingdom saying it’s like knowing the wind is there although you can’t see it. We can’t access it with our 5 senses, but in our hearts. This is what it means to be born again. Paul’s entire gospel came from a revelation. Evangelicalism insists on biblical literalism, but literally can’t see what it says. Whoever limits our experience to the bible has not read it. It is a pointer. Very sad. And saying someone has a low view of scripture because they don’t believe that a book is God is nothing but a childish insult. Views on scripture vary worldwide…. it is only extremist fundamentalists who reject the living God for a book… and in so doing, disobey the book. It is by far not the most prevalent view in Christendom. The Chicago Statement on inerrancy was drafted in the 60s, and was not received by all areas of Christendom. Evangelicals love it because they can control people with it. It is a flagrant violation of scripture, as is sola scriptura, drafted hundreds of years earlier. The other ironic and maddening thing is — very few “literalists” have studied the history of scripture, and, later, the bible, for themselves. They are completely ignorant, and only parroting what their leaders have indoctrinated them with, and who they are completely dependent on. They have literally been routed away from the living God.
Again: Who is the Word? Jesus! The Word was made Flesh, not a Book.
You seem to have a low view of the Holy Spirit.
Let me tell you a real story. You probably won´t want to believe it´s real, ok, so be it then.
A missionary travelled far into a Buddhist country. He was eager to tell everyone the Good News and came across a Buddhist monk. He told the monk about Jesus and after a while, tears were streaming down the monk´s face. The missionary asked him: So, do you want to receive Jesus into your life?
The monk replied: Receive him? I´ve known him all my life, but now I finally know his name.
So yes, I do believe Christ is bigger than a Book. Thank God!
Could you explain to me the use of the term “low view of scripture” as it relates to my faith in the Jesus revealed in the scriptures?
Was it not the true word from the bible that took you all to where you are now. Many people who become something in life have always been behind the true word of God and that is sad
Actually there is a New Testament word for hell , its “hell” – that’s straight from Christ’s mouth – Matthew 18 : 9 , Luke 16 : 23
Actually, in the New American Bible, the word Jesus used is ‘Gehenna’ and everything I’ve read so far indicates something only tangentially related to what many, if not most, Christians seem to THINK Hell is.
Still, if you think I’m wrong, can you provide me with the scriptural verses to help me advance in my faith?
Refer to my comment to Dr. Ann Smit above, and check out my comments on this ‘inerrant and infallible, 100% correct, 0 errors’ subject both above and below.
Please read Romans 14 and decide where you fit in that scripture. There may be some meat to this argument.
Doug; I think you make a good point. Whenever it comes to debate, love for the guy on the other side of the debate should be our motive for speaking. The Bible condemns reproaching someone and condones rebuking him. We are told to contend for the truth but, not to be contentious. There are other examples but, my point is that the truth is narrow. Balance is not the key, it is the spirit that leads us into truth, and discernment is a gift of the spirit not a gift of intellect. As believers we need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling and be gracious towards other who are doing the same.
In regards to the discussion concerning the inerrancy of the Bible, its inerrancy is in some ways mute because our foundation is Jesus Christ, not the book which testifies of him. When the Bible refers to itself it most often uses the term “scriptures” which according to Tim.3:16 every word of it is of God. And this book tells us to place our faith in Christ, it says to hear his voice. It pointedly tells us to not refuse him who IS speaking from heaven (present tense Heb 12:25). The Bible says that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. The terms word of God is not referring to the book. The terms “word of God” is referring to that which comes to man from God. The difference is significant in that being christian is a relationship not a system of doctrines. It is entirely possible to have doctrine that can be backed up by the scriptures and yet lack the spirit of Christ, falling into the group that Jesus was referring to when he said “you call me Lord but I don’t know you.”
Thank you, David for your words and contribution. Oh that all would apply the love principles to their debates.
Right, and it would also apply to the title of this page, that says we “berated” people. We did not. Nothing about the existence of this impersonal, accusatory, inflammatory, and gossipy page is anything close to Christian.
Spot on! As you say, “When the Bible refers to itself it most often uses the term “scriptures” which according to Tim.3:16 every word of it is of God.”
Folks should note that Timothy 3:16 specifically says “OF God”, and NOT “IS God”.
Sorry to hear of your stance on The Word Don and Wendy. You’ve already made up your minds so there is nothing anyone can say to change that. I love your songs Don and have many memorized. One of my favorites is Your Beautiful to Me…also.Since I Met Him.
Chuck and Lyn
Some people say if you speak in tongues it’s the devil, some people say if you don’t.in tongues, THAT will send you to hell. Some people say you have to be dunked, some say you need to be sprinkled…how many thousands were martyred over THAT issue. I grew up being told the bible was dictated by God word for word. We don’t even have any original documents earlier than 400 years after they were written. Scripture is inspired and important to me…so as it suggests, I need to rightly divide. And I need to take it seriously when it calls JESUS the Word. Much of western Christendom has turned a book into a god. The hate and control springing from this area of blatant scriptural disobedience is evident to any thinking person. And part of the evidence is this very page, filled with accusations, errors, slanders, gossip, and a wolfish, scapegoating mentality… even the title of it reflects nothing of Jesus at all. A person would literally have to be blind not to see this.
Knowing the long history of the Bible is crucial to being able to correctly interpret it, as you’ve just said above.
Don’t scholars have some fragments of the original Bible dating back to the 2nd century C.E.?
Do the Dead Sea Scolls have parts of the Bible among them, and (if so) when do the scrolls date to?
Stephen, There is an excellent book by Lee Strobel which addresses the issue of the earliest dates for the new testament scriptures. The Case for Christ which chronicles his search for truth from devout atheist to dynamic
faith and the evidence he uncovered to become a Christ follower.
Thank you for your reply!
I will check my local library website to see if I can find “The Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel, and hopefully I can borrow it.
Mr. Strobel’s journey from devout Atheist to Christian is of special interest as I’m fascinated about the ways that people are brought to Jesus by God the Father, since it took 30 years (give or take) for our Heavenly Father to be able to bring me to faith in Jesus and his dying for the sins of all mankind . . . since he had to bring me to Jesus the long way around . . . without the Bible.
I actually think that I have “The Case for Easter” by him somewhere around this disaster area of an apartment, but have not yet read it.
I’m currently trying to start reading “How Jesus Became God” by Bart Ehrman, who definitely does not believe that Jesus is either God the Son or the Son of God, and “The Rage Against God” by Peter Hitchens, brother of the late Christopher Hitchens (who wrote “God Is Not Great” and others), and a Christian.
Have you read “The Genesis One Code” by Daniel Friedman? In it, he makes a compelling arguement that the Book of Genesis says the SAME THING that science has discovered about how the universe formed, and that it ACTUALLY SAYS that the age of the universe is 13.7 billion years old, which it took thousands of years for science to determine the same thing.
I found it very helpful in my progress in faith as a new Christian.
I am not familiar with the book you mentioned, Stephen. My interest in Creation Science causes me to seek out and to listen to such people as Dr. Hugh Ross, an Astro Physicist and former Atheist, who I watch on You Tube.
I am a 72 year old woman who came to faith in God in 1971 after a near death event in which I experienced Hell. An atheist at the time I did not believe in any form of afterlife nor in any God being. As a result of that experience I went on a three year search for the truth regarding God and his existence if such was the case. Like many former Atheists I was eventually convinced that God was real and the evidence required a verdict on my part. In those days I read many books by Francis Schaeffer and Josh McDowell whos appologetic presentations were persuasive and challenging. Today I listen to Ravi Zachariias, John Lenox, Lee Strobel, and other appologists who minister to my need to “love the lord with all my mind” as well as all my heart. Appologists who encourage thinkers to believe and believers to think.
I immersed myself in reading the Bible and attended conferences and home bible studies where I met my first christian mentor who befriended me , bought me my first Bible, and gently encouraged me to seek more of God through reading his word and purposing to love others as JESUS loved. A command from Jesus that I still pursue. I journal almost daily and enjoy a quiet time early in the morning before the day begins. I often use scriptures as my foundation for prayer and recommend that practice to others.
God will unfold the answers you seek as you journey in your new found faith.
So let me get this straight. All his ministering life, Don has been blessing you, preaching the word, your god has been speaking to you through him, and now because he and Wendy do/say things you don’t like, you publicly vilify them on here. Has it ever occurred to you that your interpretation of these same scriptures might be wrong? Has it occurred to you that these people may be what you Christians call ‘prophets’? Telling you that you are on the wrong track and trying to lead you into blessings? Do you really think that a lifetime of working for god and ‘ministering’ to you people would just suddenly be thrown away now your bubble has burst? From the outside here, it looks as if you are the people with the problem, not the Franciscos.You speak of ‘repentance’, you are the ones who need to repent. Have you any idea how disgusting this sort of behaviour looks to those on the outside? Your Jesus is quoted as saying that ‘by this shall all men know that you are my disciples, that you love one another’. I don’t see any love here apart from that shown by Wendy Francisco. You should be ashamed of yourselves. I’m sure you don’t really know the ‘real Jesus’ as you claim, because the Jesus in the bible is nothing at all like how you people portray him. Shame on you! Shame, shame shame on you! You talk of being a ‘good witness’; all I see is a bad witness. Someone looking at this from the outside would conclude, based on your parochial behaviour, that there is no god. And don’t try replying to me with your scriptures, you rip things out of context and use it as hammers to beat those with whom you don’t agree. It was never intended for that. As one of Don’s songs says of your bible: “He gave his word for freedom; you use it to enslave. But when god’s become your enemy, tell me, who’ll be there to save?” I read a really good article about your sort of people here, you might want to read it, he puts it a lot better than I do: http://www.flyinginthespirit.cuttys.net/2015/12/08/stoning-the-prophets/
Don and wendy are two of the most loving, caring,charitible real Christians i know…Love Love Love them.♡
Yes, this. Well said Sandi 🙂
God bess you people
We love you Son and Wendy
Welcome to the family, Stephen. A review of what you are requesting here will take some time and thought to consider. If you care to correspond further send a FB friend request to Pat Hallam and mention this Berean blog. May God meet your every need and reveal to you the truth you seek precept by precept. Isaiah 28:9,10
The next time I log onto Facebook, I’ll send that friend request. Thank you for inviting me to do that!
Take as much time as you need. It does my soul good to know that at least one person is willing to answer 16 questions to (hopefully) resolve this doctrine debate.
At its core, I realized (as I read the comments above) that people didn’t seem to realize that there are two (2) separate doctrines being debated here, only one of which Don and Wendy were challenging (as they do not believe it).
If you can, check out my other posts (starting with my reply to Bob). The more feedback, whether positive or corrective, that I can get, the better.
sad to hear any one stray from the word ! I am but a simple man who answered the door when Jesus knocked . Dons and Wendys words would be meaningless and songs as well if they do not hold to Gods Word . Those who get to much worldly light and fame , and listen to the talking heads and not the Word ,or their own voice instead of the Lords ,end up like pilgrim in pilgrims progress when he takes his eyes off the road. Any truly bornagain christian as my self will quickly tell you we are saved be grace through faith , or I would say by believing what the Word said to me ! How does God speak ? You got it ! BIBLE 2 Tim 3:16 to think differently is foolishness ! Dennis Moore
Thank you for your comment!
I completely agree with you, as a careful examination of my post above indicates.
Just as you do, I hold the scriptures in the highest regard, as I do believe that Don and Wendy Francisco also do, and (believe it or not) they really do know their scriptures. And their music reflects that firm belief in Scripture. I’m still learning, but (as the saying goes) “Rome was not built in a day”.
Any Catholic or protestant who has taken the time to read the Bible (myself included, although I have not yet finished reading it) will agree 100% that we are saved by grace through faith in who Jesus was and that he died for our sins, and I definitely believe..
What is being debated here is not whether the Bible is divinely inspired or not, but whether it is without even a single error due to human fallibility. We’re talking about 2 separate doctrines that are getting mixed up into one.
As I mentioned above and was asking the questions above to help show is that the Word of God [capital W] and the word of God [small case w] are not the same thing at all. One is a part, role, capacity, etc of the only true God, and the other are God’s (and therefore Jesus’ — there is no distinction) instructions to us.
Again, 100% agreement with you regarding 2 Timothy 3:16, but I do find that many Christians don’t seem to realize that the Scriptures that Paul refers to are the Jewish Sciptures (or the Old Testament). Paul was not writing (or dictating) his letters thinking “As I write these words, I am writing Scripture). To Paul, they were simply letters — letters containing valuable information and advice, to be sure, but still only letters, not Scripture.
The decision to canonize (or classify as Scripture) the books of the New Testament was only made a couple centuries later (give or take) by the Christian church which had adopted the name “Roman Catholic Church”.
And, yes, I definitely agree that both the Old and New Testaments are holy Scripture.
May God bless you and keep you!
Do you have DVD one can buy?
I stay in South-Africa, and am very fond of your music!
Thanks for answering!
Theo Mc Farlane
Whoever wrote this blog misread Don’s quote in that he isn’t saying you’re dead if you believe Scripture is inerrant, but only believe it because you’ve been taught to believe it. It’s a matter of owning your faith as well, and not just blindly believing something others have fed you (there’s the drinking Kool Aid bit). And if we build our faith on something that’s been force-fed to us, for example our parents’ or friends’ faith, of course we will never truly be Christians until we own the faith for ourselves. I had this experience years ago. I also believe that the Word is God (it says so in the Bible) but this isn’t what Don is saying. He is simply stating that trying to build our personal faith on a belief spoon-fed from someone else will never hold up. And it never will until we confront it and discover for ourselves what having a relationship with Christ truly is, and not blindly walking through the motions of religion simply because we’ve been taught it’s the right thing to do.
That is all.
Hey!!!! Was that an April fool’s prank?!
Fascinating document /book regarding the omissions and errors in the NIV. Thanks Shree for the link to read it.
Shree, Those who are familiar with the spiritual journey of the Francisco’s today are aware that they subscribe to a theology of Inclusion. In a nutshell [All are saved – no one misses going to heaven] Inclusion is a cousin to Universalism. Because they have adopted this deceptive doctrine well meaning Christians have tried to correct them and have thus alienated them and even excluded them from their fellowships.
“What amazes me is how often we fail to read between the lines – those unsaid words that is so important in understanding the true meaning of whats being said”
I’m sorry, maybe I misunderstood………. I guess I didn’t read between the lines?
Tell me Shree, do you think all humanity will be saved? Do you think all religions worship the same god? Do you think there’s an actual hell?
“My problems begin with those who would try to make this book into a god. There is only one Foundation, Jesus Christ, and anyone who attempts to build on another one will be using an unstable and deadly cornerstone.”
I’ve yet to meet anyone making the Bible a “god.” In fact most Christians, false and otherwise don’t bother much with scripture, hence the utter ignorance, apathy, and lack of discernment plaguing Christendom.
“And if the above seems controversial than check out the serious errors in the current scriptures yourselves. Jesus is the morning star and did not fall from the heavens – look at what the NIV says. The bible is true – not entirely so in its letters but in its spirit”
2 Timothy 3:15-16
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
I guess Timothy doesn’t agree with you or Don. As holy scripture can make you wise, it is profitable FOR DOCTRINE, FOR REPROOF, FOR CORRECTION, FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS!
P.S. not yelling, just highlighting.
But since scripture is wrong, then how do we know the Jesus of the Bible? Attacking the veracity of scripture is nothing new, Don just does it to promote his view of what he thinks scripture should be. If we were to take the approach of “reading” between the lines, then doctrine wouldn’t exist, neither would absolutes………As man would fashion God in his own mind, something Rob Bell is doing now with his own version of the Bible. Or how about The Shack, there’s a great example of taking liberty with scripture, and more heinously the person of God. Remember ” did God really say?” We know who said that. Again, questioning the veracity of………Sign of the times. Good is evil, evil is good.
“And if the above seems controversial than check out the serious errors in the current scriptures yourselves. Jesus is the morning star and did not fall from the heavens – look at what the NIV says. The bible is true – not entirely so in its letters but in its spirit”
This statement is contradictory. “The Bible is true – not entirely” So which parts are right?
One thing is certain; He is coming soon! There will be foolish virgins who stay behind for three and a half years of incredible testing and violence and wise virgins who meet Him in the air.
I ask our Heavenly Father to bless everyone who has posted and read this blog to be of the wise.
Amen and amen! He surely is! Maranatha!
Interesting to read the comments. Thanks to all for adding their voice to the debate. I was a little surprised about the comments made by Wendy and Don, especially Wendy. All I can think is that times are changing very quickly. May God bless you all.
I became a Christian at 15. It was an undeniable, and inexplicable experience. I went to a Church where people had happiness and joy. My enthusiastic pastor taught me many things, using scripture to back up those teachings. I listened to some prominent preachers on the radio and found their teachings to be reasonable. Many people I respected and trusted taught me much about being a Christian. They all used scripture to support their doctrine. The implication of Christian society was: If it came from the pulpit… it was true.
But I was unhappy. I didn’t feel close to God, and many of the things I had adopted as truth, didn’t sit right in my heart. But I was constantly reminded by my mentors and friends: “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding”. Eventually I recognized that there was a problem with my very popular and common version of Christianity. It was tainted with man’s logic and man’s agendas: greed, self righteousness, and manipulation. and often my own behavior was motivated by fear instead of gratitude. It all sucked.
When I moved to a new city I was tasked with making new friends. I was also separated from those who taught me all that i had previously believed. I confided in my new friends:
“I know Christ died for my sins and that HE, who provided forgiveness through HIS blood, is the only way. Everything else is up for re-evaluation.”
I started reading scripture and asking God to help it make sense to me. I noticed scriptures like 1 JN 2:27. and 1 COR 5:12. and LK 11:42. ROM 14:23. I was quickly impressed to interpret scripture in a manner which would present the fruit of the Spirit. Fear, confusion, shame and pride would NOT accompany a correct spiritual interpretation. Many times I still have no comprehension… But i now understand that that is okay.
I began to understand that when people told me to “Trust in the lord with all your heart…” What they really meant was either ” …and stop questioning the interpretation that I have given you” OR “Sorry, I have no clue and don’t want to get involved”. I learned that anyone that wasn’t willing to work out my salvation WITH me, was not ordained to rebuke me in personal spiritual matters. (Authority and responsibility are inseparable) Likewise, I also learned that I had no authority to correct anyone who hadn’t given me their permission to do so. I learned to tread lightly with my words, offering encouragement, rather than rebuke or ridicule. I learned that treating someone as a “heathen or tax collector” (MAT 18:17) meant showing them the deepest of compassion and love, being careful not to fall into the same sin that had captured them. I learned that except for the scribes and pharisees, Scripture is free of any instance where Jesus pointed out a person’s sin publicly. It was not His mission to degrade or embarrass those he ministered to… and he ministered to all. ( Note: He was *alone* with the woman at the well).
I learned that it was not necessary to, nor did God expect me to, have an understanding of all scripture. I learned that God will not smite me or turn His back on me if i cuss Him out or blame Him for something i don’t like. And he will always respond with kindness (when I am open to hear it) I learned that it was okay to question God, but not to question His authority. I learned that true doctrine will withstand the most invasive scrutiny… and never take offense. I learned that God has forgiven me for all I’ve done and will do… even before I’ve done it; and that I don’t have to ASK for forgiveness… I just have to accept it.
I learned that The Bible is insufficient to contain all that God and Christ have done JN 21:25. I also learned that scripture is only infallible when comprehended through the eyes, ears, and heart of the infallible Spirit of God…. who will one day render it obsolete…. and that I would never have a relationship with a book. Arguing over the inerrancy of Scripture is an irrelevant, unprofitable, and carnal conversation.
“Arguing over the inerrancy of Scripture is an irrelevant, unprofitable, and carnal conversation.”–Man
2 Timothy 3:15-3:17
All Scripture is God-Breathed
“…15From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.”–God.
That is not a contradiction. My statement and your scripture reference are not in conflict. If you will, “God/Paul” does not say scripture is complete. God/Paul is not referring to New Testament scriptures, but those which Timothy has known his whole life.
God breathed.. to be acknowledged, respected and studied. We might also remember that God/Paul did not say: perfect, comprehensive, or even sufficient, but instead chose the word translated “useful”… If Scripture is “useful”, but the man of God is to be complete, we could deduce that something in addition to Old Testament Scripture will be necessary.
But here… again… I am falling into the unprofitable trap. I digress…
My statement is not incompatible with Scripture, But more importantly, it is in line with the Spirit.
Daniel, here is the passage with the words defined:
Every scripture inspired of God [God-breathed] is also profitable for [for the service of] teaching [doctrine, learning], for reproof [evidence, conviction], for correction [rectification, “straightening up”], for instruction [chastisement, nurture] which is in righteousness: That every man of God may be complete [perfect], furnished completely [fully equipped] unto every good work.
The Word of God is the only standard we have. Any experience you have with Christ through His Spirit must be compared to the revelation of God and His “character” as revealed in His Word. Notice also that the Bible is everything we need to be complete and fully equipped.
Hey B! Thanks for amplifying.
Hey brother, keep fighting the good fight!
Who defines scripture, but the Holy Spirit?
Your argument is a man’s argument, with a man’s interpretation. Here is another man’s argument: Paul’s letter was not scripture and He never specifically described any of his letters as scripture. However, we can certainly agree that they are all “useful”
“Notice also that the Bible is everything we need to be complete and fully equipped.” It doesn’t really say that… but let’s go with it…
So if the Bible is complete and sufficient, then by this we imply that those who write books about theology and spiritual matters are in defiance of Scripture? If circular logic is valid in one direction surely it is valid the other way as well.
How might we interpret John 2:27? John 5:39?
We never seem to have a problem with someone’s interpretation of scripture until it doesn’t match our own (or what we have accepted from someone else.)
I simply encourage people to read scripture according to the Spirit of God, who alone interprets scripture perfectly. Neither you nor I will conquer that in this lifetime. Yet you find cause to disagree with my view, putting words in my mouth I did not say and words in God’s mouth that HE did not say.
Man studies Scripture to seek and worship Christ and God. He also employs it to justify and mask his own sin. (I know… I have done both)
And the Spirit of God ALONE establishes the difference between one and the other. The Scriptures REQUIRE the Spirit for growth and fullness, but the Spirit does not require the Scriptures to prevail. If I endeavor to understand the scriptures, my focus is frustrated. if I endeavor to know the Spirit, I will be fulfilled, and as a result, I will understand the scriptures. Because the Spirit reveals the scriptures… not the other way around. This is because the Spirit is eternal and the scriptures only temporal.
Do you understand now why I say the argument is carnal, pointless and irrelevant?
Peace and Grace to you.
[Paul’s letter was not scripture and He never specifically described any of his letters as scripture.]
God Himself described Paul’s letters as Scripture when He had Peter write: “And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; wherein are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unstedfast wrest, as they do also the OTHER SCRIPTURES, unto their own destruction.”
It is interesting, isn’t it, that in these verses that define Paul’s epistles as Scripture, we have a warning concerning the ignorant and unsteadfast who will end up in destruction — all because they twist the Scriptures to thier own thoughts. Daniel, this is what you are doing.
[I simply encourage people to read scripture according to the Spirit of God, who alone interprets scripture perfectly.]
But when I do that, you say it’s wrong and no one can really know what the Scriptures mean. You’re wrong, Daniel. God gave us His Word so that we could understand it and come to know Him.
The Holy Spirit is the one who wrote the Scriptures and the Lord Yeshua told us that the Spirit would teach us all things. What things would that be? Something other than His own Scriptures? No. “Your Word is truth; sanctify them in Your Word.” We are sanctified in the Scriptures by the power of the Spirit.
You are seeking another way. May God grant you repentance.
Thank you for providing that scripture reference … I missed it. This is encouraging to me. And forgive my long response. below..
“But when I do that, you say it’s wrong and no one can really know what the Scriptures mean”
I did not say that. Compare what I said side by side to the above claim. they do not match.
“What things would that be?” Far more than can be contained in Scripture. What scripture led Phillip from Jerusalem to the chariot to speak to the eunuch? What Scripture did the prophet quote when he said: “In this way, the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.” Scripture is useful for many things… but it cannot take the rightful place of the direction of the Holy Spirit, nor should it bind the hands of the Spirit because such an example cannot be found, or may even seem contradictory to scripture.
Below is an example of the wonder of the Spirit which led me to do something which seemed contradictory to sound teaching.
In Jan 88, I was diagnosed with HIV while being mentored by a man of God and his wife. I was immediately concerned for the health and well-being of the last person I had been in a sexual relationship with. I told my mentor that I needed to contact the man and tell him that he might be infected and should get tested. I was confident this would be the Godly, and responsible thing to do. But my mentor told me not to contact the man. He gave no reason, but that the Spirit had said “NO”. I was initially upset, angry that this man was preventing me from doing “the right thing”. I complained to God. That is when the Spirit asked me: “Do you want a relationship with ME or a book?” I could not have conjured such a response myself. (my own response would have said “go behind his back and do it”). While it was not the answer I wanted, I reluctantly let the matter go… eventually forgetting about it. I wondered why the Spirit would direct such an action, or rather forbiddance of action. And if God had NOT answered me … I would have held onto it like a dog with a bone.
A dozen years later….. I found the man online… and told him of my concern. He said that he DID get tested and the test came back NEG. I was relieved and finally understood why God might have said what He said, Perhaps contacting the man at that time might have proved a stumbling block for me, but certainly, God already knew that I had not infected him and there was no reason to contact him. God knew what I did not. He alone has all the facts. I must follow that which is love joy peace patience faithfulness, etc. Even when it goes against someone else’s interpretation of scripture, or what I had previously accepted as true.
There are many times when we are presented with situations in life when we have no example in scripture to follow, Where in scripture are we taught, without apparent contradiction, about patriotism or racism? What does scripture say about stewardship of the earth and pollution? Is it scriptural to own or drive a car? What if it’s a Porche? Is it okay to have credit cards… or a mortgage? To gamble? Since there is scarcely an example in scripture for many of these are we to assume these subjects are irrelevant to our Creator?
It’s interesting how we say that someone else “twists scripture” while we only occasionally, and hardly ever, only misinterpret it. Each denomination seems so certain that they know more truth, yet the gifts of the Spirit are noticeably lacking in every fellowship, despite our access to millions of Bibles in dozens of translations. If we revered the Spirit as much as we do the Bible, things would be much different.
Daniel, your example of the work of the Spirit is from Acts. Acts is descriptive, not necessarily prescriptive. Those first 30 years post-Cross, as narrated in Acts, is at the confluence of two Ages — Israel and the Church. The Twelve as well as the 7 deacons were all going to Jews and Proselytes only. Later Paul went to Jews in the Diaspora (as well as Gentiles). Jews seek signs (and that’s NOT a good thing!) and they were given plenty.
As the end of the Age of Israel dawned, the specific ministry by the Twelve to Jews died out and ended with the deaths of the Apostles and the destruction of the Temple in AD 70. Meanwhile, Paul was going to Gentiles as the masterbuilder of the Church. As the last Apostle (1 Corinthians 15:8), he had all of the gifts of the Spirit, but near the end of his life, he was no longer healing people, and he explained that the sign gifts of prophecy, tongues, and words of knowledge would all cease (1 Corinthians 13:8). And they did cease when the Word of God was complete in the first century AD.
Daniel, you seem to be saying that the work of the Spirit is in signs and words in your mind that He puts there. But all of those things ceased. The things of the Spirit that are still in force are far better! The work of the Spirit in the Christian is ongoing and includes no less than life in Christ; that is, the eternal and victorious life of the Christian is given and sustained by the Holy Spirit. He indwells the believer, He intercedes in the believer, He teaches the Bible, He applies the Bible to our hearts and minds for sanctification, He wars against the flesh, He applies the peace of God to the believer, He spreads the love of God in our hearts. He is the Spirit of life in Christ that has freed the believer from sin and death. He produces His fruit through the believer. These are the greatest works of the Spirit. Don’t seek after temporal signs that can be easily faked by the enemy.
I believe the Spirit does basically all you said… and basically what I have said. For much of what we each describe are not mutually exclusive. I will give us the option of agreeing to disagree. My interpretation of “but when that which is perfect has come…” is surely different than yours. My eyes are open… in many ways… and still veiled in others. But I understand that my salvation and my eternal position do not depend on my complete grasp of even this scripture, but only faith in what Christ did, which I can never completely comprehend in this life. I do not believe that we must follow the new testament as some new list of rules for the believer… but in that it points us to Christ and the Spirit of God. I disagree that certain interpretations of scripture maintain authority when other scriptures conflict with that interpretation. I find no scriptural evidence in Acts that the gifts of the Spirit were only for a certain time, for certain people, and that we have surpassed “the last days” as there is evidence to the contrary. in those same scriptures. But it is unlikely we will agree on these things. The difference between us is that I don’t believe that these things separate us from God, putting us in danger of eternal damnation, but they may hinder us from receiving all the goodness and victory that God has for us in this life. It is not an all or nothing proposition. God is very cognizant of our limitations, fears, and reluctance
No… if we believe that God has come in the flesh in Christ Jesus, that The SPIRIT sets us free, not the embracing of questionable scriptural doctrine as taught by men, but only in that which is of faith… faith in hearing “The Word”. If such nuanced teachings of the scriptures are paramount to gain or maintain salvation, then those who have no bible or scripture to reference are truly doomed. My creator is not so petty. But doctrine, and experience which leads us to spend time with our creator and produces good fruit, that is paramount and can be revealed with or without the aid of scripture. I see that as we are human.. it is only to admit the truth to recognize that our pride of life, the lust of the eyes and flesh will always seek some way to augment our existence outside of intimacy with the Spirit. Adam’s failure was not a lack of following a list of rules, but his lack of trusting God, which led to disobedience. Thusly Christ came to put us back on the track of faith and gratitude, which breeds trust and obedience.
While my mind IS being renewed, I can depend on truth from the Spirit far easier than I can depend on my intellect to interpret scripture, But my flesh leans towards the latter.
Have you found ANYTHING in my words to give you encouragement, something which speaks life to your spirit?
And now, let me ask you this, Daniel. Are you still practicing homosexuality? Do you consider it sinful?
[It is interesting, isn’t it, that in these verses that define Paul’s epistles as Scripture, we have a warning concerning the ignorant and unsteadfast who will end up in destruction — all because they twist the Scriptures to thier own thoughts]
Very well said B!
[If such nuanced teachings of the scriptures are paramount to gain or maintain salvation, then those who have no bible or scripture to reference are truly doomed.]
Daniel, let’s look at the importance of the history of the Sacred Writings. In Romans 3:1-4, Paul anticipates the accusatory questions of the Jews and preemptively provides the answers. The oracles of God (v. 2) include all of the Old Testament, but particularly the promises and prophecies, as well as the judgments. With the Scriptures in hand, the Jews’ guilt should have been evident; however, they lacked faith, the faith that would have opened their eyes. “Faithless to the trust” (v. 3) refers to Israel’s faithless attitude toward the privilege of the nation as the bearer of the oracles. They had pride in their position as the bearers of the oracles, but they did not heed the oracles. Paul quotes from Psalm 51 to show that when the promises of the Scriptures are fulfilled, primarily in the Millennial Kingdom, God will be justified before men, and unbelievers, not God, will be the ones proven to be faithless.
Now we also have the NT, also given to us by Jews and preserved by God through Jews and Gentiles alike. The Jews had the high privilege of writing, preserving, and maintaining the Sacred Writings; thus, God will hold them to a higher standard than those who have never had the Bible. You and I have the Word of God in our hands. It has been preserved through the millennia so that we could have it. We have the responsibility to study it and obey it. Those who do not have the Bible will be justly and righteously judged by God (Luke 12:46-48). But notice that to whom much is given, much is required. The fact is, you do have the Word of God. You have been given much; many men gave their lives in the effort to preserve the Bible. It is your great privilege to hold it in your hands. It is so important that no less than the Holy Spirit Himself will teach it to you and He will use others to teach it to you (Ephesians 4:11).
I agree… yet again, I don’t recognize a conflict with my original message or response.
It is my sincerest prayer that God opens your eyes. I leave you in peace, and I would ask that you reconsider your position with much prayer. Berlorac and Rascott are brothers in Christ and can help much.
May the peace of Jesus Christ be with you, may He open your eyes and may He be a lamp unto your feet. We are here to bear each other’s burdens.
It is also not important that i continue this conversation. Perhaps I again have not been ordained to lend what i perceive to be a bit of objectivity or enlightenment. These things are not crucial… and it is not for me to be critical of another man’s servant.
I simply ask that you continue to seek our Father, to keep your heart open to the Spirit. But please be careful in your corrections of others. My spirit warned me not to entertain the criticisms I might receive… but in my stubbornness and self-righteous. mindset, I didn’t obey, and where has it gotten any of us?
Peace to you… and Praise to Him who is able to reveal all things. Once again HE knows what is best.
What does the Scritures say,more importantly what did Jesus say,these are the Scriptures that testify of Me but you refuse to come to Me! It’s amazing that some believers don’t believe in Gods word. “All Scripure is God-breathed and is useful for teaching,rebuking,correcting,and training in righteousness.So that every man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work”2Tim.3:16-17. How can anyone who says they are a Christian,who believes God created all of that which is created not believe that He can keep His Word pure and clear of mans interpretations! It is called the living Word for a reason. How small we make God,that He can create by the power of His word but can’t keep His written Word pure and all of it under the direction of the Holy Spirit! Don’s songs sadly have become less meaning as they use to!
Don Francisco’s He’s Alive and Adam, Where are you? are the reasons I grew up loving a forgiving Savior in an unforgiving world. Many still do find motivation in the experiential construct of hell and use it to justify their need for forgiveness and salvation… while, the only one I need salvation from is myself. I came to realize that necessity very early on… that the adversary in my questioning was me… not some red guy with a spikey tail who spit fireballs. I do believe in adversity and adversarial relationships, both physical and ethereal; yet in knowing the construct of hell and how it’s made and experienced, I no longer fear it. Am I going there? Where is it located, that I may go? There answer is not in where… but, when… from the moment we experienced separation from our creator to the moment we felt our lives intertwined with his again… that is and will always be our hell, should we choose to dwell in that experience and pitch a tent for it to occupy a place in our lives Hell only becomes a place if we make it so. Same for heaven. Wendy has simply, in the presence of friends, come to this realization. Please…if you name the name of Christ; yet, continue to spread division in the Body of Christ…You are an adversary, yourself, spreading balam, not bliss. Seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and possibly you will find Wendy greeting you in your experience, when you arrive. But please, do leave your hell behind. It’s not allowed in that existence.
I was troubled to hear the things that are being said of Don Francisco. I have loved him in Christ for more than 30 years and his music has encouraged me when I have been down.
I think that Don has said things that have been twisted. There is much wrong in the church today. Pastors and leaders not as close to God as they should. And yes, I too think that scripture is used sometimes to control God’s people.
Scripture is used, maybe a verse or too, but given to hang a whole churches doctrine on. The church I went to believed that anyone who touched alcohol was a drunkard. They called Jesus a wine bibber and a gluten in His day.
I think Don and his wife Wendy are God fearing Christians with a close walk with Jesus. So close, like many other Christians , they see the scribes and Pharisees in the church system, and what Don says is right , those leaders do need an encounter with Jesus on the Damascus road. Don’t judge him or His wife when you don’t know their hearts towards God……..
Some think my comments were despicable and vile…What’s really…dispicable is that Don & Wendy both do not believe the Bible IS the Word of God, and that it can be trusted…What a joke!!!
I STILL challenge Wendy & Don to a debate. I will be back in fort collins, co around the 13th of January, and I will debate them any day, any time. They live about 15-20 miles outside of
Ft. Collins, and I dare them to debate me!
I dare you to debate me Don & Wendy
Neil Hansen is my middle name and fathers last not: Gregg Huestis…I still challenge up both to a debate! Name the place in fort collins and time.
All this tells me is that he’s not a radical, right-wing Fundamentalist who often believe in the KJV.
He sounds like an evangelical who would say yes there are errors in the various manuscripts, but none of them changes the truth of the doctrines it teaches.
I believe in the infallibility of the Bible and in the absolute truth of all that it affirms.
Evidently, Don is saying that he is no longer the Fundamentalist that he evidently once was.
Give him some grace people! Otherwise, you are acting like those who rejected the Jesus’ People to whom he was part of as well as sang to.
Sure are a lot of so called “Christians”…especially celebrity “Christians”…getting divorced and remarried…It’s like they are telling us Jesus didn’t know what he was talking about… calling it ADULTERY. Twisting scripture to suit their lifestyles. How come when you try to look-up “Christian” celebrities on Wikipedia….there’s nothing there under PERSONAL like movie stars and politicians where you can find how many spouses they have, partners, children, etc? Is it because they are ashamed…and don’t want the rest of us uninformed ninnies (as they are far above us in their thinking, in this modern world) who believe the teaching of Jesus about divorce and remarriage is TRUTH and the command of Jesus if you are separated/divorced…. you are to remain single or reconcile with husband/wife?