As the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) rapidly grows, its anointed leaders seem to be distancing themselves from the NAR label. Especially now that discernment reporters are shining the light of Scripture on this movement and Christians are beginning to take notice – and question their pastors. One such reporter, Holly Pivek, co-author of A New Apostolic Reformation?: A Biblical Response to a Worldwide Movement, files this report over at Spirit of Error:
Recently I wrote about Bill Johnson’s attempt, in a Christianity Today cover story, to distance himself from the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR).
Now I address Heidi Baker’s denial—also reported in Christianity Today– that she’s part of the NAR. It appeared in a May 2012 cover story about Baker, titled “Miracles in Mozambique: How Mama Heidi Reaches the Abandoned.” The author, Tim Stafford, indicates that the reason people lump Heidi Baker and her husband, Rolland Baker, with the NAR is because of their association with the Toronto movement and loyalty to its leaders, many of whom are part of the NAR. But, unlike those leaders, Stafford writes “the Bakers do not promote the New Apostolic Reformation or consider themselves to be modern-day apostles.”
Contrary to what Stafford was told, Heidi Baker does claim to be a modern-day apostle and, thus, is part of the NAR. He must not have seen a video of her personal testimony–posted on YouTube in May 2011, a year before the article was published. If he did see it, he missed her claim to be an apostle. Though she does not directly state the words, “I am an apostle,” she clearly claims to be one. Anyone who understands the NAR and watches the video knows that’s exactly what she’s claiming. Watch it for yourself and see if you can spot the indicators.
A commission and a public affirmation
Here’s a brief recap of the portion of the video where she claims to be an apostle.
Starting in the video at about 6:16, Baker recounts the story of her appointment as an apostle, which occurred while attending a revival in Toronto led by the NAR apostle Randy Clark. After being miraculously healed of double pneumonia, she has a visionary experience when she sees Jesus, face to face, and receives a specific commission by him regarding her work with orphaned children in Mozambique.
Also while at Toronto, Clark–while speaking to the audience at large–suddenly publicly affirms her appointment as an apostle. He says, ““I have to change my message. I need to speak about the apostolic anointing.” (Those in the NAR know that to have an “apostolic anointing” is a NAR euphemism for being an apostle.) As Clark prophesies to her about her appointment, Baker is flipped on her head by God and she hears the Lord speak to her again about being an apostle. While Baker is still on her head, another senior leader of the Toronto revival, Ian Ross, asks her if he can pour water on her—a prophetic act and, apparently, a public symbol affirming her appointment as an apostle.
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You know how roaches scurry when the light is turned on? Well these are running now because the light of the gospels is shining on them. This is what we the bride are supposed to do! Confront error and expose it! Not worry about which candidate will help the Christian “cause,” as so many will have you believe! See, when we do what we are commanded to do, action is seen! We need to clean up house! Judgement begins in the house of the Lord! We need to throw out the rockstar fake pastors. Clean the pulpits of error spewing wolves! Go back to systemic bible teaching! And most of all, Christians please read your bibles and pray! For the bride, for your children, for your families and for the few good pastors left trying to do the right thing against tremendous odds! We can’t, but GOD can!
Curious as to how well you know Heidi Baker and where do you find error in her life?
By their fruits ye shall know them. When one really studies scripture these thing become obvious. For example 2 Peter 2:1-3.
Manny1962….nailed it! Well said.
Amen and amen! This is what we are mandated to do! In spite of all the darkness out there we can see our God working! We must continue following Jesus, no matter what the cost!
It does not really matter what they are called. Whether they go by NAR or seek to avoid the name. What they are saying and doing is utter nonsense and totally unbiblical. And the practices and visions etc are very scary and one knows it is not of God. The problem is how to stop the rot. It is impossible to clean things up. Yes we must speak up but even when these errors touch our what we think of as conservative evangelical churches, it is difficult to warn against them as people are so ignorant of biblical truth.
Is it unbiblical to not have visions from God Susan? Do you know for sure She is part of the NAR do you know this with 100 percent accuracy? You guys are saying things against a lady who is sold out for Christ! Does anyone on here want to really discuss what the Bible says she is or is not doing wrong?
Susan, you’ve hit the proverbial hail on the head. This apostasy took root as more and more churches jettisoned the truth of the bible, for the deception of man, it is clearly written that a Great Apostasy will be taking place in Christendom in the last days, no doubt we are almost there as the heresies and lies multiply. It is my opinion, this began as more and more Christians stopped reading their bibles, discernment went away, the false teachers had a filed day introducing heresy to undiscerning and bible ignorant new believers who were chasing the latest feel-good doctrine. Who is to blame? Elders, boards, leaders and finally the sheep. Those in position of authority should have never given unproven men the pulpit, when heresy was preached, right there and then, that pastor was to be held responsible and either fired, that’s right fired, or given a chance to redeem himself in front of God and the congregation, the sheep bear responsibility too, if and when a pastor starts getting away from scripture and starts preaching man, the sheep need to be Bereans, and call him out, on the spot, right there! During service! Point out the error! Tell him it’s unscriptural! Problem is, just like in the Catholic world, Protestant sheep have been brainwashed into believing pastors are infallible! Which they are not! That’s why Paul admonishes us to be Bereans!
And we can clean up house! Not all of it, but where there is still an ember of God’s word burning, we can fan the flame of truth, we must realize that the whole of Christianity is not the house of The Lord, the bride is, we are small, ardent, capable, discerning, zealous for our Lord, we can keep our house clean and free of error, the most fertile field for evangelization is Chrurchianity right here on our doorstep! We need not travel overseas for a mission field, we have the greatest need right here, right now! So let’s get to praying and reading our bibles as if our Lord is returning tomorrow! Stamp out error where ever it is to be found! Pray, as God does amazing things when His people humble themselves before Him in prayer! Don’t be afraid of what is happening in America and he rest of the world! It was fooretold it was to happen! Focus on your mission! Maranatha!
So what is wrong with Heidi or another person calling themselves an apostle? The assumption seems to be that anyone who does is false. The Jews used that thinking to crucify Jesus for calling himself the Son of God -but He was. Let me say, if there are ANY modern day apostles, which the bible indicates there are, then Heidi and her husband would certainly qualify, although they don’t go around proclaiming they are. The bible says, God set in the church apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers for the maturing of the saints, for the edifying of the body of Christ, til we all come into the unity of the faith… Why is it that one can be called any of the other four and they will not necessarily be called false? Does not the body of Christ still need maturing, edifying and unified? Then God has set in the church (still) apostles. Some people just need to mature, including those who write articles criticizing other ministries because they don’t understand them. If you would listen to someone like Heidi Baker with an open heart, you just might grow up as God intended.
Amen Tom I think people write and say things out of their ignorance! they think they have never experienced it so it has to be wrong or their pastor told them that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not for today so anyone operating in it is wrong! All along they where just not taught the word properly or they just don’t know the truth of Gods word!
Tom,
It is a shame to see yet another person enticed and hooked by the deceit that flows from this woman’s mouth. First of all there is no such thing as a “second blessing” and being “filled” with a spirit as the Pentecostals claim. An honest look at what they claim will lead to the conclusion that this “filling” supersedes the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus and is to be more sought after and prized than the Lord Jesus Himself. Before you attempt to dispute this, try to find just one Scripture that will support this nonsense. Then she claims to have “seen Jesus” and somehow was not completely humbled in this “presence” she felt. Look at the accounts of others who have met the Lord and recognize what happened to them—Moses, Job, Isaiah, Paul, etc. Next she says that the ‘church’ where she was “allowed God to work” which is also not to be found in Scripture, No one “allows” God anything, He does not need our permission, agreement, or consent to accomplish His own will.
Then she talks about “Jesus ripping a piece of His flesh from His side” and telling her to eat it and give it to the children around her; then she is “told” to drink His blood and share that also. Ever been to a catholic gathering? Maybe you are a charismatic/catholic (just another cult) and have been taught this heresy of eating the physical flesh and drinking the physical blood of Jesus Christ in their “communion” which is actually a communion with the devil. Please read Hebrews chapter nine and ten.
She never once mentions the saving power of the Lord Jesus, but opts to spread the social gospel which does nothing for the saving of the lost. And what’s with this woman preacher anyway, doesn’t she know that women preachers/pastors, etc. are not sanctioned by the Word nor it’s Author? I guess she missed that part. On a side note, if she is such a faithful “holiness Pentecostal” why does she sport short hair, I guess she forgot that is a taboo (along with her pants) in the circles she attends.
“You can do nothing without the body of Christ” Really? Book, chapter, and verse please! This is just another part of the catholic lie that she promotes.
Instead of searching the Scriptures to see if the things this woman stands for and teaches are correct you have succumbed to her soft spoken voice, her charming demeanor, and infectious smile not seeing the lies that she promotes as truth. Perhaps the height of her deceit is claiming to be an “apostle” without stating it in no uncertain terms, she is content to let others declare her to be an “apostle” thus appearing to have “maxed out” on humility.
There is a common thread that runs through all of the charismatic/Pentecostal nonsense which is this: the phrase “You must be born again” is virtually absent in all they say and do and it’s replacement “theology” is “being filled with the spirit,” talking in gibberish as a poor imitation of the gift of tongues (actual languages), and of course “healing.” The Holy Spirit IS NOT the author of these replacements for the Gospel of Jesus Christ, nor does He condone them as necessary “add-ons” to the Lord Jesus or His Gospel. They are lies from the pit of hell that have been successful from their beginning and obviously have been successful with you, Tom. May the Lord open your eyes and grant you repentance from following these lies and the people who tell them.
All in all, Heidi, her “apostolic NAR buddies” and all those who love the lies she tells are a classic example of people who “have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof.” Deception is always appealing, enticing, seductive, and makes promises that cannot be fulfilled because it’s all a lie. Notice how all that she said ends up revolving around her, what she experienced, what she did, how she “heard” the Lord speak to her (which is in itself a huge lie). Silly me, I thought it was supposed to be “He must increase, but I must decrease” and now we are told just the opposite: “What have you done for me lately, god?” Why do you, Tom, put up with people that mock the God you claim to love and serve?
Hi Darrel,
Acts 2:4 is one of the bible references stating that “All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.” It doesn’t refute the sacrifice of the Lord as you say it does, but confirms the gifts we receive as a result of believing.
How can you speak so firmly about what a servant of God is doing? You don’t seem to recognize that accepting Jesus results in the gift of the Holy Spirit which intercedes between the believer and God. God is Triune which the Bible clearly states but is something difficult for believers to comprehend.
I too am familiar with what the bible says about women preaching to a congregation which is why I approach her type of sermon with extra discernment. The Bible isn’t always as black and white as we would like to believe it is. If it was most of the different Christian denominations would not exist, but somehow do exist based on how they differ on interpretations of scripture.
So the other tongues of Acts 2:4 is equal to the gibberish of today? If you actually read your Bible you would understand that the Gift of Tongues is ALWAYS the spoken word of another earthly language. I never said tongues refutes the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus, I said that this “second blessing” nonsense of the C/P crowd supersedes the oblation of Christ (in importance) and is the mainstay and foundation of all the other heresies they love to spout. They say that the “evidence” of being “filled with spirit” (little ‘s’ on purpose) is “speaking in tongues” (gibberish) which is a lie. The evidence of being filled with the HOLY SPIRIT is a life of holiness, daily dying to the flesh, and seeking to glorify the Savior which is the opposite of what speaking in gibberish does for a man’s ego (that’s all it is, an ego trip).
One does not “accept Jesus” in order to secure salvation (another lie of man). If a person is saved it is because they were born again by the Spirit of God, the sole act of God not requiring the cooperation, consent, or acceptance of the one born again. If you had actually read your Bible you would already know this to be so.
“For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.” 1 Tim. 2:5. It is not difficult for a believer to comprehend the Trinity if it is first believed without explanation—that’s why they are called BELIEVERS.
“Extra discernment” is useless when listening to any female “preacher” because she is not sanctioned, called, appointed, or anointed to be in direct rebellion to the God she claims to speak for by anyone other than the enemy of God. Nothing that she “preaches” has been authored by the Spirit of God.
“The Bible isn’t as black and white as we would like to believe it is.” Wow! What profound nonsense. “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.” Heb. 12:14. “And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.” Luke 14:27. “… Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3. Only an evil heart will find ambiguity in these statements and seek to manipulate a specialized “interpretation” that only leads to more confusion (“confusion” is the trademark of the charismatic/Pentecostal cult). The Word of God is filled with commands that evil men do not like, who seek to negate these commands any way they can; it’s called REBELLION, something you seem to be well versed in, any excuse to disbelieve or otherwise render mute the Words of God to you seems to be your forte. Perhaps the Lord will give you the gift of repentance—it is a gift from God for a man to repent.
I appreciate your response. 1 Corinthians clearly says about the gift of tongues, “For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit”. Right after it goes on to say, “On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation”. The gift of prophesy is the word of God that people understand which I think you’re referring to.
I agree that a person is saved after being born again through the Holy Spirit but we absolutely need to seek this out. The book of John is all about Jesus saying “I am the way the truth and the light, nobody comes to the father except through me”, so we most definitely need to accept Jesus. If not then people would receive grace randomly as I seem to hear you saying. God gives us the freedom to choose who or what to put our faith in and to seek him out.
Do you know about their organization and how many poor and homeless they have helped while ministering the word of God? This might be the evidence of the Holy Spirit through a person’s actions as you mentioned. How many souls have you saved using a harsh and condescending tongue? That being said women were instructed with a different role in the church then preaching as we seem to agree. Heidi seems to have had many many profound and well documented experiences that she speaks to people about but stays within her African outreach ministry. She doesn’t say things to achieve fame but boasts about what the Lord has done.
No, Daniel, I’m not referring to the ‘gift of prophecy’ but to the aberration you and you C/P buddies have made of the Gift of Tongues. Had you bothered to continue on in 1 Corinthians you would have seen how Paul completely dismantles the present day heresy that you claim is a “gift from the Holy Spirit.” You are perpetuating the lie that the present day gibberish is actually the Holy Spirit speaking through a man——a most dangerous lie indeed, for the end of it is blaspheme against the Holy Spirit.
The Book of John is anything but showing that “we most definitely need to accept Jesus.” Rather, it shows the total supremacy of God (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) over His creation and most especially when it comes to the saving of a man. It is God who does the choosing, not man (John 15:16). It is God the Father who drags men to Himself (John 6:44). When you lay down the insanity of the “free-will” of man and read the Scriptures knowing that God is Sovereign over all, then and only then will you be able to understand that you had nothing to do with the salvation you claim to possess. John 1:13 says “Who were born, not of blood (not through heredity), nor of the will of the flesh (your own will), nor of the will of man (someone else wishing you into the kingdom of God), BUT OF GOD.” God NEVER gave anyone “the freedom to choose” anything (please provide no less than three verses that indicate this, since this is the foundation of the lies you speak). God did give the command to obey Him and to repent from our sins, which NO ONE is capable of doing apart from the grace given them. Your total ignorance of grace was revealed to the whole world when you said “…people would receive grace randomly…” as if God does not know what He is doing.
But you saved the best for last with each thought in your closing paragraph warranting a post for each of your inane statements. Social gospel Heidi? “Might be evidence” ? Which is it, evidence or not (hint, the answer is ‘not’)? And now for the big one: “How many souls have you saved…?” Did that question really come from your brain or did you hear that one from your favorite Pulpit Jackal? Who is the one that saves anyone, Daniel? You? Me? Heidi? Who? As for Heidi boasting on the Lord I never heard that. It was all about Heidi as is common for all the C/P crowd with their experience based “other gospel.” Consider John 15:26 and John 16:14. Who is it that the Holy Spirit speaks of and glorifies? Was it the flesh of man and his exploits or the Son of God? So why is EVERYTHING in the C/P cult based on “your experience?” Why is it based on “your choice” when Scripture clearly teaches that you don’t have a choice, especially when it comes to the eternal destiny of your soul? Because you seek to remove God, not just from His throne, but from existence, and replace Him with yourself. What a great day it is to repent!
If a man thinks that by any action of his will he can gain salvation for himself, then that man has no need of Grace. And if he has no need of Grace, how then can he be saved?
This is in response to your 6/13 reply.
In the garden of Eden man disobeyed God and was kicked out and condemned to a live in a mortal sinful world. However even after this God already pre destined a way for us to receive salvation from our sins (as illustrated by the below verses). He gives us the free will to choose whether we follow him or fall into the pit of hell. God never predestines anyone to Hell but gives us the free will to fall into it ourselves.
The first books of the new testament are all about how the apostles traveled and spread Jesus teachings as they (and we) are commanded to do, which caused churches to be formed all over the globe. They showed people the opportunity God gave in order to receive salvation. If God predestined everyone then they just wasted their lives and time since they ended up being persecuted to death.
Asking Jesus into your heart is symbolic of the Biblical command to repent of our sins and follow his name. Here are some verses which tell us the exact action we need to do in order to receive God’s grace:
Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Without doing this and thinking you are just pre destined as God’s elite group I worry that one might condemn themselves to Hell without knowing it.
Amen Darrel! Yes seduction comes in a sweet wrapping, I feel so saddened by those that can’t see what this movement has been spewing for a longtime now, gnosis……they have the inside track, they tell their god what to do. Part and parcel of the ever growing apostasy! Tom, may the Good Lord in heaven open your eyes to the subtle, sweetly spoken deceit being perpretated on you, please read your bible, the biggest danger facing Christians is lack of discernment, the antidote? Read scripture, pray, the Holy Spirit was sent as a helper to those that seek knowledge from God. You don’t need these false apostles, prophets, charlatans to provide any heretical knowledge, all you need is in front of you, read your bible and pray. Our God is an amazing God!
The NAR has moved way beyond the practices of the old-time Pentecostals. What Pentecostal churches accepted in the past as the Holy Spirit giving individual spiritual gifts (tongues, healing, prophecy, etc.) to each believer–as the Holy Spirit wills–has now been revamped by the NAR into “learning” how to acquire the spiritual gifts. This involves the unbiblical (actually occult) practices of contemplation/meditation/soaking (altered states) and impartation–in essence an individual can have all the gifts, it’s just a matter of learning the techniques. So there is a heavy emphasis on chasing after experiences, interpreting dreams and visions, even tatoos, the list goes on and on. Of course, there is no use of biblical discernment in all this. It’s all very subjective. All justified by NAR as God doing “a new thing.” It’s frightening to see how they have thrown open the gates to the influence of the demonic realm.
Maggie,
What you are describing concerning the NAR (and Pentecostals) is witchcraft. “Learning how to acquire the spiritual gifts” is nothing less than an attempt to manipulate God the Holy Spirit into doing the bidding of a man, as if God is obligated to meet the demands of a pride filled heart. The only difference between the ‘old-time Pentecostals’ and today’s version is the intensity and depth of deception, along with the more seductive tools and manipulative techniques they employ today. By teaching their brand of deceit and attributing all their false doctrines and practices to the Holy Spirit, many have committed the unpardonable sin of blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. This meaning that they never were ‘saved’ nor indeed can be. Yet how many millions swoon on their every word?
Witchcraft, yes. No fear of God. I found it stunning to hear from a number of people (including Bill Johnson) that being able to perform signs and wonders is “fun”!!!
Dark days indeed! When professing Christians can’t see through the ever growing flagrant deception! I don’t even think it’s deception any longer! It’s out in the open! Man wants it his way! And God is letting him have it!
Daniel,
You have addressed nothing that I said other than to give more of the same philosophical and unbiblical nonsense that permeate the C/P cult. no where in Scripture are we told that man’s will supersedes God’s will and it is He that does the choosing. The reality of your comments is that you have ignored what I have said to you as you opt to continue the line of idiocy man wishful thinking “free-will.” You have NO FREE WILL period! You are either chosen for salvation or you are not.as is clearly stated in the Scriptures provided that you have ignored which is typical of the false “brother” that you are. Instead of humbling yourself before God, you continue to worship yourself, your “free-will” with all of it’s attending lies.
ENOUGH
I will not play your games of lies and deception any longer.
Wow you are very rude. I dont want to be like you
Having spent many years in a Christian environment that taught man’s free will to make a “decision” for Jesus Christ, it was a radical teaching for me to hear that it is the Holy Spirit who brings us to repentance and faith–even though Scripture supports this, of course. It took much study for me to understand the fullness of what I had previously missed. It was a process, much as it was coming to faith after hearing the true gospel, or leaving a false religion or cult.
Now when I try to discuss this difference in doctrine with a friend who is ingrained in the teaching of making a “decision” for Christ, I get a blank stare because it doesn’t make sense to her. I don’t think this is willful on her part to disregard Scripture, but it will just take time and study for her, if she takes me seriously. It is the job of the Holy Spirit to bring her to truth.
Well said, Maggie!
It’s always difficult to “unlearn” what was taught in any cult, perhaps more so in those ingrained in the fabric of “church” today. I have yet to meet a ‘free-willer” that didn’t also believe that salvation could be lost due to some unnamed but egregious sin (some now say that a man can simple “opt-out” of ‘salvation’ at a time of his choosing). They never seem to grasp the total depravity of themselves, let alone all of mankind and therefore end on the ‘universal salvation’ trash heap, negating the sacrifice of Christ. Thank God that He does not leave His chosen ones in the cesspool of false doctrines.
Be careful folks. Some of these comments and responses do not read very nicely and make me write now. We do not know each other at all.
I for one detest many of these NAR and ‘Toronto’ pushing people and groups. I have watched enough video of Heidi Baker to conclude that what she is doing and saying is not of God. I teach and stand up for truth. And against error and false teaching. But I find in some of these comments, attacks against what I hold to as biblical truth. And for which truths I have suffered to some degree. And I say that humbly, and that I am privileged to have sacrificed for the sake of the Gospel.
I would be one of your so called ‘free-willer’ people. But I do not believe that someone truly saved can be lost so maybe I am the first. All are safe in HIS hands and his promise to keep and to never leave or forsake are true. That when he gives someone eternal life that means eternal and it cannot be taken back.
I understand the state of mankind that there is none righteous, not one. And absolutely do not intend to end on “the universal salvation trash heap”. Whatever that means.
What I do also know when it comes to salvation is the black and white clarity of these verses- God is not willing that ANY should perish.. 2 Peter 3. …. that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life John 3:16 That when the jailor asked – What must I do to be saved? The simple answer came – believe on the Lord Jesus Christ…. Acts 16:30. If God is not willing that any should be lost then how can it be that he has assigned them to hell before they were even born and yet the message is ‘WHOEVER believes in him…..:
I know that our Lord Jesus issued a command to go and preach the gospel and make disciples and go to the ends of the earth. I do know that many who live at ends-of-the-earth-places are still waiting to hear the glorious gospel and have at least one chance to accept or reject. That the church and believers have failed in taking that marvellous ‘power of God for salvation’ to such places. He knows of course who will accept and believe the message but if God makes the choice of who goes to heaven and who to hell then it appears to me that he has chosen a great many westerners for salvation but not many people in hard to reach places. Millions and millions and millions. I do not think of my God like that at all. Of course the old colonial thinking that they are savages no better than animals contributed to a failure to take the gospel to them. But God did not think of them like that. Each was precious enough to HIM for his son to have to die.
I have heard it said that God is sovereignly in control of every single person in the world and what they do. If man has no free will and everything a person does has been ordained and appointed by God then that makes God the initiator of sin. Of what Hitler and his cronies did. Of what the mass murderers have done recently with their shootings.
A teen boy was told that what was happening to him was God’s plan for his life. He struggled with that. I told him that God’s perfect plan for his life was for his abusive father who professed to be a christian to be a nurturing father who loved him and brought him up in the ways of the Lord. Eph 6:4. What he was experiencing was the result of sin and the wrong choices of a man to not live as God intended him to.
Which of us would say, if a rapist attacked one of our daughters, thank you Lord for your perfect will being done. And that the evil man had no choice but to do what God had predestined him to do because he does not have a free will. No and a thousand times no.
I have witnessed terrible cruelty and torture to other human beings. Can we say those people could not help doing what they did because they do not have a free will to make the right choice and walk away? Another thousand times no. I have also witnessed the power of the gospel in such people that when they have heard the message of salvation and put their faith and trust in the Saviour then by a work of the Holy Spirit they are born again and changed and no longer do those things.
Only the Gospel is going to make a difference to anyone and any situation. Let’s get busy with that.
Yes and amen! I agree
Susan,
I believe the extreme Calvinist position is that God predestines some to hell. That’s not where I’m coming from. I understand from Scripture that the Holy Spirit convicts and enables us to repent and have faith. Without the action of the Holy Spirit, man is totally incapable of reaching out to God for salvation, because he is dead in trespasses and sins and does not seek God. The means by which a person learns about salvation is by hearing the gospel preached.
This is in contrast to the simple “free will” teaching that if you can just present the gospel in a very appealing manner, then a person can make a “decision” to be saved. Worse, what is often being preached these days is not the true gospel, but to make a decision for Christ and live your “best life” (whatever that means),
I’m not labeling myself Calvinist or Arminianism in my beliefs, but I believe there is a tension in Scripture about the working of the Holy Spirit, along with some kind of participation from man. Making a free-will decision for Christ falls short of what the Bible teaches about salvation. I’m still working on my understanding.
Susan,
Sorry to see that you bought into the manipulation so enticingly and deceptively presented to the world under the banner of the “gospel.” In order for the things you wish were so to actually be so, there are a number of Scriptures that must totally ignored or better yet, removed from the Word of God. John 1:13; Acts 13:48; John 15:16; Rom. 9:11; Rom. 9:13. There are a few hundred others. In order to maintain the notion that a man has a “free-will” the Sovereignty of God must be destroyed. Are you prepared to enter that fight and wage war against God? That is the outcome of insisting that man has a “free-will” especially when it comes to who is saved and who is not. Would you attempt to remove Almighty God from His throne in heaven? This, too, is the outcome of the insistence that man’s “free-will” supersedes the will of God which is the end of the “logic” (it is logic, because there are NO Scriptures that back your claim in any way, not the ones you posted, nor the other favorites of those who believe as you believe. If this “free-will” thing is so Biblical, why are there twenty times the number of verses that say it is not? Please explain this to yourself.
May the Lord open your eyes to the fact that you have believed a lie, one that replaces the Lord Jesus Christ as the Sovereign Lord over all—especially man.
Heidi claims to be have been “sent out” by God, commissioned to reach a certain people group like many other Christians throughout history, yet she is criticized for simply sharing her testimony. YES, this testimony would meet the literal test of the lesser form of apostleship as defined LITERALLY by the Greek. This would be true of ANY Christian who has been called by God for a specific purpose and “sent out.” Yet in Heidi’s case this is grounds to accuse her of inordinate claims (despite the fact she never mentioned the word “apostle”) while ignoring every other Christian throughout history with a similar testimony who happens to share the same theological template. This kind of outright hypocritical slander is the mark of a FALSE ACCUSER.
People who insist that the “NAR” is off base with the belief of restoration of “apostle” as specified verbatim in Ephesians 4 have not bothered to research how “apostle” is defined, and what it is NOT is an equivalency in status to the original 12. Here is a website that defines “apostle” fairly well:
https://churchwatchcentral.com/2016/11/02/educating-dr-michael-brown-the-nars-definition-and-role-of-apostle/
“Heidi claims to be have been “sent out” by God, commissioned to reach a certain people group like many other Christians throughout history, yet she is criticized for simply sharing her testimony”
Her testimony is a mixture of the machinations of her mind with a false gospel. Can you be specific on who was sent specifically by God to reach a certain group? The only documented group I know of were the apostles, that for a very specific reason were sent out by Jesus Himself for the founding of the church. No one is founding any churches today, we are to simply proclaim the good news, we are not to build on the foundation set up by the apostles. Testimonies are declarations of how God changed the person, testimonies are to be put to the litmus test as any other claim, not all that claim Christ are truly His! Remember those that come before Christ claiming they did miracles in His name and cast out demons, He tells them depart from me, I never knew you. Heidi Baker is not an apostle, and as unpopular as it is with many who don’t like to hear it, the apostles were all men, provingly called out by The Lord, not by their imagination.
Correction: Yes, Heidi did mention “apostolic” when referring to anointing to fulfill the commission for which she has been sent. However, anyone who is remotely familiar of how “apostle” is actually defined by those in her circle understand that this is all it is. She is SENT OUT and anointed for this purpose. This is no threat to be fearful and freaked out about, people, and it absolutely is no threat to the status and authority of the original 12. This is God working exactly according to Scripture.
“Correction: Yes, Heidi did mention “apostolic” when referring to anointing to fulfill the commission for which she has been sent.”
My friend that’s all you needed to say. She’s been commissioned as we all have been commissioned, we are to spread the gospel, that is the Great Commission, it is the responsibility of EVERYONE who is a follower of Jesus Christ. To say the she has had a unique commissioning apart from every follower of Christ is disingenuous.
Well she has done a poor job of following the Great commision, wouldn’t you say? She doesn’t preach the gospel.
She preaches a false gospel.
Go to youtube and search for “The drunken delusion of Heidi Baker”. She rolls around “drunk in the spirit” for 20 entire minutes. Its disgusting.
Jane,
Pretty sure you would have mocked David dancing before the Lord. I know at times in my life I would have also. Just because we don’t understand something doesn’t mean it’s not of God. We may make it into heaven with that mindset but we would be missing out on the joy of His fellowship- if we insist on only knowing His acts and not caring about His WAYS. He is worth pursuing with everything we have- to take the time to know Him not based on the boxes of our religious backgrounds. Don’t be afraid to turn off your favorite pastors/teachers for awhile and try reading the Bible outside of the confines of denominationalism. God’s word is true. Blessings on all who read this- in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Heidi Baker… the abundance of fruit in her life is astonishing, the lives transformed, healed, the orphans loved and fed, the personal sacrifice in her journey, the love of God CLEARLY radiating from her everywhere she goes. When the light of Christ comes at his return, and the truth is revealed, many of those who have left comments here will be sorely embarrassed and very, very sorry.
Thank you, Matthew…thank you, “T”. Thank you, Susan. Thank you, Daniel.
Your humility and Holy Spirit’s grace, (thru you), go before you. I am blessed to see your soft answers and His love displaying through your words.
Shalom to each here.
Research church history = become an Orthodox Christian (sometimes referred to as Eastern Orthodox). It’s the church that the apostles actually founded and it’s still around, but weirdly unknown in America. Our Saints have visions and perform miracles and have written many warnings against delusion throughout the centuries. Heidi Baker and many charismatics seem similar to the early heretics the Montanists. Come see the true Church and experience the fullness of the Christian faith. RESEARCH ORTHODOXY.
It’s sad to see my brothers and sisters in the Lord having stupid arguments over words. The scriptures clearly tell us to avoid those.