I’m about to share complete blasphemy with you, wrapped and bound snugly in the heartstrings of emotionalism and self esteem. Before you see this in your youth group, in your women’s Bible study, on your timeline, or even from the Jumbotron at your church, I hope you see it here first.
I post this story as a preemptive strike against those who will perpetuate the lies of the enemy of our souls. Thy do it beautifully, with skilled manipulation cloaked in tears. If a wolf cries real tears, then what they are saying must be true, right? After all, God judges the heart, and this wolf’s heart is humble.
If that sounds harsh, I don’t mean it to be. You see, the battle for truth is very real, and very wicked. The enemy’s tactics are as old as “Hath God really said?”
Several years ago some dear women I know shared these same lies in the form of a video titled “Who You Are: A Message For Women”, by Jon Jorgenson. Yes, it made church Jumbotrons. Youth groups. And women’s Bible study groups.
Because I know God’s Word, I recognized the wolf. I did some background checking on him and wrote about the dangerous deception of his messages here, so that others could mark and avoid him.
Today the female version of the enemy’s lies appeared on my timeline (shared by professing Christians), titled, “Witch Hunt: A Message to Humanity.” The author is Juliana Neilson, s a life coach from Indiana.
I can just see the tears of emotion streaming once again for a message that tells women that they are not broken or in need of a Savior; it’s all a man-made lie to make you feel bad.
Some will believe that this is a Christian message. After all, this woman quotes Scripture, or a loose notion of it. But if you don’t read your Bible and study it, if your women’s “Bible studies” have you feasting on Beth Moore, Jen Hatmaker, , etc., instead of His breathed-out Word of truth, you won’t even recognize how this woman twists the truth of the Bible into a feel-good heresy.
If you don’t want to watch the entire blasphemous thing, here are some highlights:
2:34 “You’ve been told that you’re dirty that you’re broken, that on your best day you’re still painfully inadequate. That your true colors are evil. But what if this tale isn’t true? What if it’s all a hoax? Maybe the townspeople were wrong. What if they misunderstood that there is in beast in you?”
3:35 “If there’s anything that needs to die it’s this tale we’ve been telling for far too long; this infection we’ve spread, passed down to our children! It’s time to share a new narrative with one another. It’s time for you to believe a new story about yourself: You are not broken. You are not intrinsically damaged. You are not destined to spend the rest of your life fighting a losing battle.”
And, (spoiler alert), it builds up to a voluminous crescendo to conclude:
“You are WHOLE! You are BEAUTIFUL! You are WORTHY! You are SO GOOD! And this is just the beginning of the true story we call humanity.”
Watch this not with an open mind, but an open Bible:
Boo hoo hoo, please pass the tissues. Ladies, if you see this being propagated as truth, you need to soundly rebuke those who are sharing these lies. How do you do that? With the truth of Scripture. Because if I am enough or if I am SO GOOD, then the Bible is lying about my heart being deceitfully wicked.
There are none righteous, no not one. The truth about who I really am is why Christ had to die on the cross. Neilson, Jorgenson and others will tell you that His sacrifice was pointless.
The way God sees us is clear from the way He described us in the verses below. But the Good News is that Jesus died for wicked hearts, as the sacrifice to take the penalty of sin. He beat death! He is our hope; He is worthy, and He is SO GOOD.
- Jeremiah 17:9 – “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?”
- Titus 1:15-16 – to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.
- Ecclesiastes 9:3 – Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
- Romans 1:28-31 – And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were… foolish
- Ephesians 4:17-18 – you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.
- Jeremiah 10:7-8,14 – among all the wise ones of the nations and in all their kingdoms there is none like you. They are both stupid and foolish… Every man is stupid and without knowledge
- Matthew 15:19 – “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.” (c.f. Mark 7:21-23)
- Genesis 6:5 & 8:21 – The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually… from his youth.
- Proverbs 10:20 – the heart of the wicked is of little worth.
- Proverbs 28:26 – Whoever trusts in his own [heart] is a fool
- Psalm 143:2 – Enter not into judgment with your servant, for no one living is righteous before you.
- Romans 11:32 – For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. (c.f. Galatians 3:22)
- Romans 3:23 – for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
- 2 Chronicles 6:36 – “there is no one who does not sin”
- Isaiah 53:6 – All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way
- Micah 7:2-4 – The godly has perished from the earth, and there is no one upright among mankind; they all lie in wait for blood, and each hunts the other with a net. Their hands are on what is evil, to do it well; the prince and the judge ask for a bribe, and the great man utters the evil desire of his soul; thus they weave it together. The best of them is like a brier, the most upright of them a thorn hedge.
- Romans 3:9-12 – What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” (c.f. Psalm 14:1-3, 53:1-3)
- 1 John 1:8,10 – If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we say we have not sinned, we make [God] a liar, and his word is not in us.
- Mark 10:18/Luke 18:19 – And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.”
- Mark 7:21-23 – “For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.” (c.f. Matthew 15:19)
- Psalm 5:9 – For there is no truth in their mouth; their inmost self is destruction; their throat is an open grave; they flatter with their tongue.
Well said. Two years ago I would have fallen for this. You, among others, have opened my eyes to the truth. Thank you for your tireless service for the Kingdom.
Thank you for exposing this!
So many in the church are taking this turn too, and have the emergent heretics to thank for it. It is the message of the devil wrapped in shiny paper with a ribbon on top. It attacks every aspect of the gospel.
The gospel:
1. We are born with a sin nature. That is the problem. We are separated from fellowship with God. We cannot save ourselves, or the world. We cannot bring in ‘world peace’ or any real solution as humanity, in the church or out of it. We are to preach the gospel, the rest is up to the Lord.
2. That is why Jesus went to the cross to die for our sins in our place, with his blood atonement, to reconcile us to God. He is the perfect sacrifice, 100% God and 100% human, representing each to the other as our perfect High Priest, Lamb of God, and 100’s of other titles. Then, He rose again demonstrating His victory over death, sin, hell, the devil. Only He could do this since only He was God incarnate and sinless.
3. Our job is to surrender ourselves to Jesus, life, heart, soul, all of us, and receive His atonement for our sin. We are then born again by the Holy Spirit.
4. There is only one way of salvation, by Christ’s finished work on the cross, and it is by grace through faith in Him, not by any other thing (works, church membership, rituals, etc.).
5. Now, we need to live for Him and follow Him as Christian disciples, because that is what Christians are; disciples.
Now the devil will come along and attack every one of these points. He will say…
“Did God really say that….
we are sinners? That we need a Savior and can’t save ourselves? That Jesus is the Savior by dying on the cross? That Jesus provides the only way? That He rose again? That you MUST be born again? That salvation is not obtained by good works, but grace through faith? That we must live for Him and be His witnesses? Living a holy life in obedience and loyalty and sanctification? But, isn’t that just ‘legalism’ and being a ‘goody-goody’ and ‘works salvation’? Can’t we all just get along? Let’s just hold hands for world peace, who cares about your testimony, it’s okay to compromise your religion, after all, it’s for a ‘good cause’… right? Isn’t that ‘God’s dream’?” Oooohhhh! He’s cunning folks! Now it is more important than ever to know God’s Word.
If you can’t stand on God’s Word, you will fall for anything.
Anyone who teaches that we do not need Jesus, no matter what their reason, is a liar. Without Jesus there is no eternal life. But, only eternal death in the lake that burns with fire. Where the smoke of their torment goes up for eternity.
I agree with the other posters. The truth is that we can confess, repent, and be forgiven. The righteousness we have is imputed by God because He sees us as justified, “just as if we never had sinned.” We certainly are not good in and of ourselves, as the Bible tells us.
This is a cancer spreading throughout Christendom, unfortunately. This message is straight from new-age thought and has not the earmarks of anything remotely relating to Biblical Christianity. I can say from experience of having been counseled years ago by a so-called, “Christian” psychologist that this message is a bottomless pit. The more one tries to convince themselves that they are beautiful, enough, capable, strong, invincible (fill in the blanks), the more one needs reinforcement – it is never enough!! For every time you tell yourself, “I love myself and accept myself”, you will correspondingly fail, and do something that is not lovely or honorable (sin) and you will need another booster. It is performance based underneath it all. Ladies, run from this self-esteem movement and run into the arms of God. Only He is worthy, only He is enough, more than enough, and He is altogether lovely. Our eyes should be focused on Him and not on ourselves – Oh what a relief that God has shown me that secular psychology, no matter how much it is wrapped up in Christian-ese, is not the answer.
Thank you for this article/video and for exposing it’s deception. May God bless you in your work and may He be praised!
Real emotional healing comes from recognizing our sin nature, turning to God for forgiveness, and being cleansed by the blood of Christ–every day! We sin every day by thought, word and deed. Our mind is renewed by the Holy Spirit as we pray and study the Bible. Sinful man in rebellion to God will try anything to circumvent these truths.
Maggie,
I thought the teaching concerning 1stJohn 3:6,8,9 when John says that “he who is born of God can not sin”, was that we do not do the same sin over and over again or “continually”? But, isn’t that what you are saying all Christians do by “sinning every day in thought, word, and deed” because of a sin nature? Seems contradictory doesn’t it?
Edwitness,
Not clear what you are saying–I don’t think you could mean that once we are convicted of a sin and repent, we no longer do it “continually.” We all have our weak areas of sin and must return (repeatedly, as often as necessary) to the Cross for forgiveness and submission to the Holy Spirit in order to die to self. (“For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.” Romans 7:15)
Before being born again, we are in bondage to sin; we cannot choose not to sin. When we are born again, our desires change, we want to walk in the light and hate sin. But while in this life, we as Christians are still dealing with our sin nature.
The standard is high: “And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength….You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Mark 12:30-31. Do I fulfill this, in thought, word and deed? No, I do not, I continually fall short of that standard, every day. As I am convicted of my sin, I need to confess it, repent, and receive forgiveness. This is my understanding of the process of sanctification.
Maggie,
There are a couple of things that are problematic in your response as far as mainline teaching is concerned, and by extension good exegesis.
For one, the general teaching regarding the passage I referred to in 1stJohn 3 says that since we do sin as Christians, what John must have meant by saying that “he who is born of God doe not sin”, was that we do not do the same sins over and over again, or “continually”. But, your statement is obviously true that we can have sins that give us more problems than others, and that we in effect really can sin the same sin over and over again. This being true, what can we do about it?
One thing we can do is to look at what sin really does separate us from God. This sin, and this sin alone is equivalent to death. And why did Jesus send the Holy Spirit into the world regarding sin. For this we go to Joghn 16:9. Here we find Jesus telling His disciples that He must go away. But, that he will send the Holy Spirit in His stead. And that when he comes He will “reprove the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment”. Vs. 9- “Of sin, because they believe not on me”. This defines THE sin Jesus died for and sent the Holy Spirit into the world to reprove us of. No faith in Him. WE NEED TO KNOW JESUS. This is life eternal. John 17:3.
But, mainline teaching appeals to 1st John again for their answer. In the 1st chapter this time. It is generally taught that John was teaching Christians to confess their sins each time they do them in order to receive forgiveness each time they commit them. Sounds like the confessionals of Catholicism, doesn’t it? But, 1st John 1:9 is a description of one’s initial repentance at salvation, and not for those who are already Christians at all. We know this because John is addressing the person who says “they have no sin”. But, a Christian IS a Christian BECAUSE they have recognized their sin and repented of it.
As for a person being able to choose not to sin before they are a Christian we need only to read what Paul said about that in Romans 2:14. He says the Gentiles who did not have the law were able to do what the law said to do by “their natures”. According to the sin nature doctrine a person with a sin nature can not do anything but sin, right? But, here Paul says they could and did do what the law said. Even without knowing it.
And when Paul wrote in Romans 7:15 what you referred to, he prefaced it by saying that he was writing to those who know the law. Jews. Vs. 1. And made it clear from the start that he was talking about someone who was under the law of Moses. That would exclude all Gentiles. And being a Gentile myself that would exclude me from the teaching in the 7th chapter. That is, unless I allowed myself to believe that I am responsible to the law God gave to Moses. Which I most assuredly am not.
He taught them that to remain under the law while trying to walk with Christ, was like a woman who married another man while her current husband is still alive. Vs’s 1-4. That would make her an adulteress.
In the rest of the chapter Paul explains the fight that goes on inside of someone who has chosen to remain under the law and have a relationship with Christ. In other words, Paul is not describing the “normal Christian life” in Romans 7 as many have been taught. On the contrary, he is describing a Jew who will not die to the law of Moses (be delivered from it) so he can be “married” to Christ.
So what do we do with the sin nature doctrine? We must reject it with all of it’s misinterpretations of the scriptures. This doctrine does not solve man’s basic problem. Because it does not address it.
Man’s basic problem is that he is separated from God as you said so well earlier. But, that separation is not caused by our personal sin as some might teach. It is caused by the DEATH that spread to all men from Adam’s sin and ultimate death. Romans 5:12-14.
We are not bad people who need to be made good. We are dead people who need to be made alive. We are delivered first from death to life. Then from sin to righteousness. Then from wrath to peace. The first is first because Jesus said He came that we might have LIFE, and that more abundantly. John 10:10. He also said that that life IS KNOWING God and His Son whom He has sent. John 17:3.
The truth is Maggie that the sin nature doctrine is a leftover from Catholicism that the reformation did not dispose of. And seminaries, Protestant or otherwise, continue to teach it to this day. Augustine was it’s champion. He was heavily influenced by Manichaeism and neo Platonism. Neither of which are conducive to the Christian Faith.
Blessings:-}
I see contradictions in what you say, so I believe I am not understanding your line of thought. Perhaps you can just tell me the name of the theology you are espousing and that will clear it up for me.
Maggie,
Please receive this in the meekness that is intended. Perhaps you are not able to process the things I am saying because you have accepted contradictions as truth in your own theology.
That is what I am trying to explain to you. It is a contradiction to believe that we have a sin nature when the Bible clearly teaches no such thing. When you read the explanation of Romans 7 that I wrote, what contradiction was there in it?
The contradiction comes from belief that Romans 7 is teaching about the battle between the sin nature and the new nature. When all the while it is simply stating that a Jew is to be dead to the law of Moses in order to be “married” to Christ. And that if he is not he will have a battle raging inside his thinking he can do nothing about. Save accepting Christ alone for salvation.
Please tell me if you can what John meant when he wrote in 1stJohn3:6,8,9 “He that commits sin is of the devil”? Is it possible that he was referring to a Christian when he wrote those words? Or when he wrote “Whosoever abides in Him sinneth not, whosoever sins has not seen Him, neither known Him”. Does this mean that if we sin we are not saved anymore? Or finally, “Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for His seed remains in him: and he can not sin, because he is born of God”. If we are to believe that John is saying that all sin is the same then we are all doomed.
But, the truth is that all sin is not the same. There is a sin that is synonomous with death. This sin is idolatry. THE sin that the Holy Spirit was sent into the world to reprove the world of. John 16:9-“No faith in me”. There is no other sin with such a distinction.
To answer your question regarding my faith I would answer with this; Jesus is the Creator God. The God we serve is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He came to earth to live as a man. He lived among us so that we might know Him. He fulfilled the law so that it could be done away with in Him. He died and rose again from the grave. And having conquered death He made the “WAY” for us to follow Him into eternal life through faith in HIM as savior and Lord. Colossians 1&2.
There are many false doctrines that can and do keep us from knowing the truth that is Jesus Christ. The sin nature doctrine is such a false doctrine. Paul fought against it throughout his entire ministry. They were called Judaisers in his day. Those who would teach that we must keep the law of Moses and trust in Christ to be saved. Today they use terms like sin nature for this purpose.
The truth is, when we sin it is because we want to, and not because we have a nature inside us that forces us to. We are not sinners from birth and there is not one scripture that says otherwise including Psalm 51.
Blessings:-}
Edwitness,
No disrespect to you. I think working through doctrine is important, and I believe iron sharpens iron. In light of the entirety of Scripture, what you present has a lot of ramifications and I had hoped you would be able to give a name to your doctrine or the source–something I can use to follow up on this.
Yes Maggie I can, fromdeathtolife.org. It is a book written by Ray Shelton called the biblical doctrine of salvation. I studied under him for several years. He is a Greek and Hebrew scholar and a great teacher who loves the Lord Jesus.
Blessings:-}
Maggie
Be warned concerning ‘edwitness’. He holds to false teachings concerning the sin nature we inherited from Adam. Notice this statement of his, “So what do we do with the sin nature doctrine? We must reject it with all of it’s misinterpretations of the scriptures. This doctrine does not solve man’s basic problem. Because it does not address it.
Man’s basic problem is that he is separated from God as you said so well earlier. But, that separation is not caused by our personal sin as some might teach. It is caused by the DEATH that spread to all men from Adam’s sin and ultimate death. Romans 5:12-14.”
Do you see what he is saying? Sin doesn’t separate us from God, death does. This is heresy. Spiritual death is because of sin, for example, in Ezekiel God says the soul who sins shall die. ‘Edwitness’ is stating it is Adam’s sin that causes death for all. This too is heresy. We all have a sin nature we inherited from Adam, and we all are accountable as a result. This argument has come up previously on another thread. I am here to warn you to ignore edwitness, for his teachings are dangerous, confusing, and NOT of God.
edwitness, do not waste your time trying to engage me, I will not respond to your heresies. I will implore you to repent of your wickedness and cry out for mercy.
lyn, be careful, in your rebuke of Edwitness, that you also err. Edwitness is wrong in saying that we do not have a “sin nature,” but you are also incorrect.
You said that it is heresy to say, as Edwitness does, that [Adam’s sin…causes death for all]. In fact, this is a crucial truth that we need to understand as Christians. We are all condemned because we are in Adam (until we are in Christ by His Grace).
“For if, by the trespass of the one [Adam], death reigned through the one [Adam];… So then as through one trespass [Adam’s] the judgment came unto all men to condemnation… For as through the one man’s [Adam’s] disobedience the many were made sinners…” Romans 5:17-19
We were, in Adam, declared condemned sinners. We are, in Christ, declared righteous.
Thank you, Lyn (and others), for your comments. What Edwitness was saying did not make sense to me from what I know of Scripture. When wrong teaching is examined, its instructive to trace it to its root. I think Edwitness is confusing the doctrine of original sin with our fallen (sin) nature, which is a subtle but important difference. I’m still making my way in understanding these concepts and appreciate how readily people jump in to clarify.
How sad 🙁 that young believers are so easily led to believe the teachings of the lying Catholic religion.
That sounds pretty condescending, Edwitness.
I suppose it does Maggie,
But there is a time when there is no other response than to tell the truth about the legalism that has infiltrated the so-called church. It has become the norm and not the exception. Paul dealt with these people harshly in his day (Galatians 3:1-ft) because he knew how it could infect the body of Christ with the poison of idolatry of the law.
Blessings:-}
The enemy makes no distinction between men and women, his minions come in all genders, colors, languages and persuasions. Don’t be fooled, without Jesus we are all damned. Remember folks, as the bible says…. In the last days false teachers will wax worse and worse. The Great Apostasy is gathering speed, all of this will become more and more pronounced until our Lord Jesus Christ returns for His bride!
berolac,
I was addressing the fact that edwitness denies we inherit a sin nature from Adam. I understand what you are stating and I hastily replied due to lack of time. There are many errors in what edwitness states, but I do not have time to point to them. I won’t waste time engaging him anyway, he has spewed out heresy on this forum before and has and agenda, as all do who seek to twist the truth.
Great article, but to take it up a notch, in your sited scriptures, the New Age translations have quite a few changes, masked as “easier to read”, but it was admitted by occultist Manly P. Hall in Hall’s Spring 1944 Horizon Magazine, page 13, that they have been working to change the Bible to suit the New World Order since 1844 (year of the New Age Codex Sinaticus forgery controversy on which all New Age translations are based).
The people behind the video are the same people behind the New Age Bible perversions. If they don’t get the Christian through the world or feel-good dumbed down doctrine, they try to get the ones they missed through subverted Bible translation.
Good word. So few people understand the Bible version issue and how critical it is. I just figured it out two years ago. It took months to peel my hands off my false Bible…until I studied the history of the Greek manuscripts, and saw charts of the changes. People will shun you (…ahem MW) and hate you for pointing this out, but it really is undeniable. Westcott & Hort were notorious occultists, haters of the Received Text, and catholic sympathizers. I wrote about it briefly and included some good links:
https://followingjesuschrist3.com/2015/10/24/the-bible-version-controversy-a-brief-history/
Thank you Kyrie Eleison for the info. I have read Hall’s writings before, but not that one. It explains where Mormons and JW’s got their start in a new way. I knew they were luciferian, but didn’t have this piece of info for additional support before.
Blessings:-}
I was actually curious if the Mormon founder (Joshua Ben) “Joseph” Smith and his brother Hiram’s names were tied to the idea that Jesus and Lucifer (Hiram Abiff) were brothers. Does Hall comment on this?
Kyrie E,
It has been a while since I read Hall’s books. But, I do not remember him referencing such a connection.
Blessings:-}
Bill Schnoebelen, former high Satanic Priest turned whistleblower, in his book, “Lucifer Dethroned” tells about how in Witches Covens, Witches go out into society and churches posing as “Christians”; They attend Christian churches and sing the Christian’s songs to but with Lucifer in mind, pray with the congregation but too Lucifer undetected, leave items behind to cause mischief, etc. Some Witches have full on “Christian” Ministries. My daughter had a friend who confided in her that she was from a witch family and was told by her mother to tell people they were Christian.
If this women isn’t one of these covert coven members, she sure does act like one, or she has been deceived by one. Jesus did tell us in Matt 24:24 “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”
Worse than these overt new agers in the ranks, are those that are in pulpits teaching heresy, wolves like Ruck Warren who quite verses out of context, misapply scripture and deny Jesus is the only way to salvation. The crux of the problem is not the new agers in the ranks, the super wolves behind the pulpits, the fault lies with the sheep not wanting to read their bibles, this leads to lack of discernment and the infiltration by heretics and witches goes unchecked. If more Christians would read their bibles, ask the Holy Spirit to fill them, to open their eyes and ears, it give them discernment to see what is going on the less people like these would be able to infiltrate congregations. But these are playing their part in the Great Apostasy foretold to happen to Churchianity, the Great falling away. If you’re a follower of Christ caught in one of the congregations, you must warn others and get out, right away, seperate from such wickedness.
When in doubt, refer to the Scriptures.
The FACT of our inherited sin nature is clearly displayed in Rom. 3:10-18. Only by outrageous pride could anyone say he is not totally depraved.
As for the cause of our own personal death, that, too, is clearly seen in Rom. 5:12. “Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, BECAUSE ALL SINNED” Not just because Adam sinned. We die our own death because we have sinned—each of us, individually have sinned and are responsible for our own sins and no one else’s. Adam brought sin into the world and we have him to thank for our own sin nature that we are saddled with, but it is our own sins that bring death. James 1:14 & 15 tells us that it is our own sins that brings our own death. Being “drawn away by his own desires and enticed” is the inherited sin nature that we all have doing it’s dirty work and bringing about sin and then sin —OUR OWN SIN, not ADAM’S—brings forth death. To say that it is Adam’s sin that causes man to die is shifting the blame for our own sins off onto someone else, in this case Adam. This “blame shifting” is a favor tactic of the enemy of Christ. Adam did it to Eve and Eve passed on her blame to the serpent and the use of blame shifting goes on unabated. To say that it is Adam’s sin for which we die completely negates the command for all men to repent of their own sins and it is impossible for us to repent of Adam’s sin. If it is Adam’s sin that send anyone to hell, then the whole human race is locked into a hopeless, eternal death with no possibility of salvation. THAT IS NOT THE GOSPEL.
We are responsible for our own sins ONLY. Adam will not catch the blame for anyone who ends up in hell, that will be on each one’s own head who refuse to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
There is more than one who spouts heresy on this blog from time to time, edwitness is most definitely one of them, so readers beware.
“Only by outrageous pride could anyone say he is not totally depraved”. Please Darrel, this conclusion can also be reached through true Biblical scholarship as well. Just because you have decided to accept Calvin’s view of man’s predicament doesn’t make it the truth. TULIP my theological foot!
The Bible, and not Calvin, is the final authority on theological matters. But, it is proven true over and over that every DEAD fish goes with the flow.
1st Corinthians 15:22
“FOR AS IN ADAM ALL DIE, even so IN CHRIST shall all be made alive”.
“The soul that sins it shall die” was applicable only under the law of Moses. All anyone has to do is look at vs’s 10-ff in Ezekiel 18 and you will see what sins they die for. The same ones that God commanded them to be killed for under the law of Moses.
And in case you “Christians” here missed it, Christians are not under the law of Moses.
“FOR YOU ARE NOT UNDER LAW, BUT UNDER GRACE”. Romans 6:14
May God open your blind eyes.
Actually, Edwitness, no one is under the law of Moses, it was only for the OT Jews.
Amen to that Mike!!! 🙂
Well said, Mike! But remember that Paul calls the Law good. He does this because Israel under the Law demonstrates the iniquity of man so that God can then conclude the whole world under sin (Romans 3:19). In other words, if the Jews couldn’t keep the Law, this is a demonstration that no one can keep the Law. Therefore, we must approach God by faith alone (Romans 3:31). And when God could conclude the whole world under sin, He could set forth His Grace to all. This is the goodness of the Law.
Paul calls the law good “when it is used lawfully”. 1st Tim.1:8-11. In this passage we see that the law is only for civil gov’t. Not for those who are righteous. It was the same for Israel. It kept them from destroying themselves until “faith came”. Gal.3:23-25.
Edwitness, I beg to differ. The passage is about false teachers trying to put Gentile believers under Judaism. Paul says that the Law can be used to show people how sinful they are, just as God had originally intended when Israel vowed that they could keep the Law and subsequently put themselves under it. The Law is not for Christians (we agree on that). But the Law is no longer in force for anyone, not even the Jews. God saw to it that they could no longer attempt to keep the Law when He allowed the Romans to destroy the Temple.
The 1 Timothy passage only means that the Law makes sin exceedingly sinful (Romans 7:13) and, in this way, it is used lawfully toward those who are outside of Christ, walking in sin (or as proof to the Christian that trying to keep the Law is contrary to Christian faith). Thus, to the unbeliever, we may present the Commandments as a proof that he is a sinner. If, however, a person already admits to being a sinner, the Commandments should not be presented; instead, we present them with the remedy, the Gospel.
Romans 13 is the place to go if you seek to show how civil law should be used and how the Christian is to live under civil laws.
Berlorac,
We agree that no one is under the law since Christ’s death and resurrection. The question then becomes “Why do WE still define sin that way”? Jesus did not define it that way when He said to the disciples “When He comes (the Holy Spirit) He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment. Of SIN, BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE NOT ON ME”. John 16:8-10.
And the reason Jesus gave for those in Mt.7 not being saved was “I NEVER KNEW YOU”. Not “You were bad” or “you broke the law”. Knowing Him is eternal life. John 17:3. Their behavior has no bearing on their salvation. It is solely dependent upon knowing Him + nothing.
Paul tells us that “Where there is no law sin is not imputed”. Rom.5:13. He even goes so far as to say that “For me ALL THINGS are lawful…..” 1stCor.6:12. Why then would anyone use the law to bring someone to Christ? Because most are taught to do it that way by their legalistic teachers.
What does Paul mean when he says “All things are lawful unto me….”?
And again when he says that “Where there is no law sin is not imputed”? He is saying that the sin that keeps us from being saved is no longer to be defined by the law. Or bad behavior. And that in Christ we are free from sin itself and it’s ability to enslave us.
The law has no power to save anyone. Gal.3:21. Their need for Christ is that they are dead and need life. John 10:10. Not that they are bad and need to be made good. That is legalism. IF THE LAW HAS ANY PART IN OUR SALVATION THEN WE ARE SAVED BY WORKS.
Edwitness,
“How sad that young believers are so easily lead to believe the teachings of the lying Catholic religion.”
Funny you should say that since you yourself believe and teach the lies of your brother Catholics. You may not be a card carrying catholic but you repeat their lies, so what difference does it make if your collar is on backwards or not? No sin nature? catholic through and through. Salvation by the work of your “free-will”? catholic through and through. Deny it as you see fit, but you have exposed yourself many times and will continue to do so, because that is your nature.
Darrel,
Wrong as usual. The sin nature doctrine comes from Augustinian influence as he, according to his contemporary, Jerome, “established anew the ancient Faith.” In his early years, he was heavily influenced by Manichaeism and afterward by the neo-Platonism of Plotinus. After his baptism and conversion to Christianity in 387, Augustine developed his own approach to philosophy and theology, accommodating a variety of methods and perspectives. Believing that the grace of Christ was indispensable to human freedom, HE HELPED FORMULATE THE DOCTRINE OF ORIGINAL SIN.
This doctrine states that all who came after Adam were responsible to his sin because we were “in his loins” sinning with him. But, Romans 5:14 says there were those who did not sin as he did. That being true, there is no way anyone from Adam till now was with him sinning in the garden. So the doctrine is a lie.
The Catholic religion teaches this doctrine and the reformation carried it right into the Protestant church. Catholic catechism- 402 All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”: “sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned.” 289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. “Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.” 290
Like I said, your theology matches perfectly in this with the Catholic whore. And not the Bible.
If you couldn’t lie you’ve have nothing to say. The least you could do would be to credit the source of your first paragraph to it’s rightful, Wikipedia. Instead, you’ve chose to plagiarize Wikipedia in you usual dishonest fashion, but being a product of your wicked sin nature, you just can’t help yourself.
Rom. 5:14 has nothing to do with original sin-Adam’s-and even less to do with fact that we have a wicked sin nature. I see you have once again failed to read Rom. 3:10-18 because if you had then you would not continue to embarrass yourself with your own words. You have rewritten the doctrine to fit your own fantasies so as to make yourself out to be some sort of religious intellect (one that is a great cause of laughter).
So now you have made it clear that you are also a universalist, just like Billy Graham, what fine company you have chosen. Your words (not found in the Bible): “…so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.” It’s plain for all to see that the real Gospel is meaningless to you. There is no repentance, no faith, no grace, just being born of a woman one time is all that it takes for “acquittal and life” with no necessity that a man be “born again” John 3:3. What a gospel you have created, just be born of a woman (who hasn’t been?) and you can live in sin and lust and even hate God all your life (and lie about as you do so well), all the while being acquitted and a possessor of life. WOW! Who knew?
Please continue to reveal yourself as the fraud that you are, there are some here who have not known your form of insanity before now.
Darrel,
Wiki or not, it still proves that it is true that it is you, and not I, who thinks just like Roman Catholics do.
I actually have read Rom.3:10-18.
And the scripture is clear that “You MUST be born again”.
No one here said that we have not sinned. Just that the sin described by the law of Moses has no bearing where it concerns being born again. The sin that does concern salvation is “No faith in Me”. John 16:9.
I am not a fraud. But, you are a legalist. And that is why you are the miserable wretch Paul describes in Rom.7. The do-do man. And that you think you have been saved by the law and Christ just like the adulteress Paul describes in the beginning of Rom.7.
I am sure this is where your blindness to the truth comes from.
Edwitness, Paul says the Gospel is that Christ died FOR SINS. Therefore, one must recognize that he has sinned against God, else he will not see his need for a savior. One must believe that Christ died for sins if he is to be saved. The one sin that will keep a person out of heaven is the sin of not believing in Christ, yes, I agree.
When preaching the Gospel, I typically do not use the Law. I use it only when I see that someone has no consciousness of being a sinner. They have no reference to God and sin, and so preaching that Christ died FOR SINS (as Paul tells us) makes no sense to them. In that case, I can bring up a few commandments and see if they have any understanding of their separation from God. Paul speaks of two spheres of sin: in Adam (“all sinned and are falling short,” see especially Romans 5), and sins that we all commit (Romans 6). If I tell someone he is separated from God because Adam sinned, but he cannot see that truth, I can often get him to see he is separated from God when faced with a few commandments.
When Paul spoke to the philosophers in the Areopagus, he did not say, “The Law of Moses says…” Of course, not. These people were not under the Law. Yet, Paul references the Law when he points out to them that they were seeing God as something that could be worshipped with graven images, through materials made with human hands. Paul tells them this God cannot be reduced to such things and that this God now commands all men to repent, for He is going to judge the world. Again, we do not try to put people under the Law or make the Law an entryway into salvation. God forbid! But it may be used to show people that God is holy and we are not.
We agree that the Law has no power to save. The Law was given to Israel alongside the Abrahamic Covenant to make sin exceedingly sinful (Galatians 3:19, Romans 7:7, Romans 7:13). Because the Christian is not under law, then all things are lawful. I agree with you. And when Paul says that where there is no law, sin is not imputed, he is speaking of that time between Adam and Moses. Although there were no direct commands from God during that time, death still reigned. God wiped out all but eight souls in the Flood; He took out Sodom and Gomorrah. This, even though sin was not imputed to the sinners. Those between Adam and Moses sinned not as Adam did (transgressing a command), yet were sinners in Adam; thus, death reigned.
This is not to say that they were not also sinners by deed. When we see that “sin” is defined by God as “self-willed,” not as “transgression of law,” then we understand why those between Adam and Moses were not only declared sinners in Adam, but were sinners by deed even though there was no law. They were, as all of us are, self-willed. Those who are not under law are without excuse because God has made himself known. It is self-will that rejects God. And out of that self-will comes all kinds of iniquity.
And so, we agree that the one sin now that God will bring against the unbeliever is the rejection of Christ. But what must one believe to be saved? That Christ died FOR SINS, was buried, and rose from the dead in bodily form three days later.
Thanks for the discussion…
Berlorac,
The violation or keeping of the law of Moses is not the criteria for understanding man’s need for a savior. Otherwise Paul would not have recognized his own need for Jesus. Because he said in reference to his need for the savior, Jesus Christ “Concerning zeal, persecuting the church (this he did because the law demands execution for the blasphemers he understood those who followed Christ to be); touching the righteousness which is in the law, BLAMELESS”. Phil.3:6.
He is saying here that he kept the law blamelessly. Yet he also says he still needed Jesus’ saving power. Phil.3:9-11. This should come as no surprise to the discerning Christian as God says the same thing about Zechariah and Elisabeth in Luke 1:6. “And they were both righteous before God, walking in ALL the commandments and ordinances of the Lord, BLAMELESS”.
We see two things here. First, that it is possible to keep ALL of the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly. And second, that doing so will not save you. Only through faith in Christ (knowing Him) can we have eternal life.
This presents a problem for the legalist who believes that it has always been impossible for man to keep the law. They think that God sent Jesus because of this. But, as I have shown, the scripture does not bear this out. Man can and has kept the whole law.
So showing someone their need for Christ has nothing to do with their ability or inability to keep the law. Jesus is the only one who has ever broken death’s hold. That is why knowing and trusting in Him delivers us from death’s power too.
So all you really have to do is introduce them to Jesus, and not the law, so that He can do the same for them as well.
The keeping of the law was never meant to save anyone. Gal.3:21. And showing someone that they have broken it does not show them who Christ is or their need for Him. He is not the law! Nor is He subject to it. He created it just like everything else. To tell someone who Jesus is we must tell them of His sacrificial love for all mankind. The sin the Holy Spirit reproves the world of is “THEY BELIEVE NOT ON ME”. John 16:9.
This alone will lead them to the salvation of God mankind is so dearly in need of.
Leave the law out of it. It was only meant for Israel anyway.
Edwitness, I agree with you that it is erroneous to say that Yeshua was our “vicarious Law-keeper.” He kept the Law only because He is God and can do no wrong. There is no sin in Him. But you’re right, His Law-keeping is not what saves us. In fact, if His task was to keep the Law for us, then He wouldn’t have had to shed His blood, for the one who perfectly keeps the Law shall live (Leviticus 18:5, Deuteronomy 8:1, Ezekiel 20:11-21, Nehemiah 9:29).
But Paul was blameless concerning the Law only because he was covered under the sacrifices. He always brought the proper sacrifices. He was a Pharisee who was blameless, unlike a publican or sinner who failed to participate in the sacrifices. When Paul says he was blameless, it doesn’t mean he perfectly kept all of the ordinances of the Law every moment of every day, like Yeshua did.
Paul says that he coveted, which means he was a law-breaker, but he didn’t realize it until he was saved and then tried to keep the Law (Romans 7:7-14). Before he was saved, he coveted, but because he was spiritually dead, he was unaware of his sin. After he was saved, it became abundantly apparent to him that he had coveted. This is when he comes to the conclusion that it is futile and unfruitful to try to keep the Law, for it is only a ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:6-7).
Berlorac,
So if it is the “ministration of death”, why would you use it to minister life while witnessing to the unsaved?
Paul did not say anything about coveting BEFORE he was saved. he said that he “was alive apart from the law once”. When was Paul ever alive apart from the law? He was born under the law. Then he says “but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died”. When was Paul ever without the commandment before he trusted in Christ? Never. Again, he was born under the law. Paul never went back under the law because he understood it’s problems.
He is obviously using himself, first person, to show them what THEY are doing. Not himself. Much like any speaker might do when making a point. Rom.7:7-13. They come to Christ and are made “alive apart from the law”. Then they go back under the law (something Paul never did once he was saved) and that is when “the commandment came, sin revived, and I (they) died”. This is what Paul is teaching here. That they are going back to the law and becoming dead men because they once again give sin power in their lives.
You said, “…it doesn’t mean he kept all of the ordinances of the law every moment of every day, like Yeshua did.” But, what Paul said about himself, God said about Zachariah and Elisabeth. Luke 1:6. God also said the same thing about Job. Job 1:1. Paul, while speaking by the Spirit, said he was blameless according to the righteousness that comes through the law. And then he said that the kind of righteousness one receives from keeping the law is not the righteousness that saves us. Phil.3:9. That is why he considered it loss for Christ. Phil.3:8. This is where you are having a problem. One that Paul never had. You think the righteousness one can receive from keeping the law is the same as righteousness that is of faith. Nothing could be further from the trith.
The righteousness that comes from faith is not the same as the righteousness that comes from keeping the law blamelessly. Rom. 4:4 is the explanation of this. “Now to him that works is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt”. One is because of good works done under the law. The other is of no works at all. But, by faith alone. This righteousness is what saves us in Christ.
The law opposes grace. Therefore there is no place for it when witnessing about the grace of Christ. Rom.4:15- “Because the law works wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression”. The law has been done away with by Christ. Therefore the transgressions the law described are no more.
I have enjoyed our conversations. If you want to read more on this go to fromdeathtolife.
Blessings:-}