The following pamphlet is a new;y released pamphlet by Lighthouse Trails Publishing, written by Warren B. Smith, and reposted here with permission from both. You may order these booklets for $1.95 each from Lighthouse Trails by clicking this link.
Lighthouse Trails Editors Note: Today there is much talk in the church about revival. Some leaders, citing God as their authority, state they have been told that a great “outpouring” of God’s Spirit is about to occur. Other leaders are describing this imminent “move of God” as another “Great Awakening”—a “second Pentecost.” What is immediately troubling to us is that some of the church figures who are leading the charge for this coming “revival” are the very same ones who gave us the “holy” laughter “revival” back in the 1990s—a “move of God” that was dubiously dubbed “The Toronto Blessing.”
Back when this alleged “revival” was spreading throughout the church, author and former New Ager Warren B. Smith wrote an article that expressed his concerns about what was taking place. His 1994 piece was titled “Holy Laughter or Strong Delusion?” and was featured in a discernment newsletter and later reprinted in other Christian magazines and journals. The article’s main focus was on South African evangelist Rodney Howard-Browne—the man who was responsible for bringing the “holy” laughter “revival” into the church. As countless people flocked to Toronto to get “hit” with “holy” laughter, Smith urged everyone to take a closer look at what was being called a “revival.”
With no apologies for “holy” laughter and the strange manifestations associated with his “holy” laughter “revival,” a somewhat reinvented Rodney Howard-Browne now pastors a 3,000-member church in Tampa, Florida. He is frequently found preaching on cable channels around the country. Howard-Browne also heads Revival Ministries International and presents “Global Awakening” conferences throughout the world. In the summer of 2014, he organized and headlined a much ballyhooed two-week “Celebrate America” event that was held in Washington D.C. In asking for financial support for the event on his revival.com website, Howard-Browne asked people to “invest in the Great Awakening” that he believes he has been ordained by God to lead. Some of those who spoke alongside him included Congresswoman Michele Bachmann, Senate Chaplain Barry Black, Retired Colonel Oliver North, Lieutenant General William “Jerry” Boykin, author/columnist Dr. Ben Carson, and best-selling author Jonathan Cahn (author of The Harbinger).
Because Browne has placed himself at the forefront of the present-day push for revival in the church, we feel it important to revisit the concerns expressed by Warren B. Smith back in 1994.
Holy Laughter or Strong Delusion?
I watched the video again. It was titled Signs and Wonders Camp Meeting 1994.1 Pastors of huge charismatic churches were stumbling around the church stage “drunk” with “holy” laughter. Wanting to testify to the fact that “holy” laughter had transformed their ministries and their lives, many of them were unable to speak when called on to do so. But their “drunken” condition became their testimony. Their halting speech was seen as “proof” of the “power of the spirit” that had come over them. The congregation roared in approval as pastor after pastor laughed uncontrollably then fell to the floor. Standing alongside the “drunken” pastors was evangelist Rodney Howard-Browne, the self described “Holy Ghost bartender” who was serving up this “new wine” of “holy” laughter. Many Christians believed that Howard-Browne was God’s appointed channel for imparting joy and revival to the end-times church. Other Christians came to see Howard-Browne as a false prophet who has inflicted great damage to the body of Christ.
Early last spring we received a fax from someone expressing concern about a new phenomenon called “holy” laughter. He said that a San Francisco Bay Area Vineyard Church was experiencing what was being described as “revival” and that the manifestation of “holy” laughter was being cited as one of the signs of this “revival.” Church members and visitors were reportedly breaking into fits of spontaneous and uncontrollable laughter during their nightly services.
Later when I visited the San Francisco Vineyard and talked with several members of the congregation, I was told how hundreds of people were getting “hit” with “revival”—how some people were getting so “soaked in the spirit” they would lose consciousness for up to several hours after falling to the ground with “holy” laughter. The Vineyard members described “holy” laughter unqualifiedly as “awesome” and definitely “the work of the Lord.”
I learned that their Vineyard pastors had recently flown to a Vineyard church in Toronto where God had reportedly “touched down” and where “revival” had “broken out.” The San Francisco pastors participating in the Toronto “revival” had then “brought it back” to San Francisco. It seemed that one of the characteristics of “holy” laughter is that it can be easily transferred from one person to another through the laying on of hands. Thus, the Toronto “revival” had now “spread” to San Francisco. Nightly meetings were being held at the San Francisco Vineyard to accommodate the streams of people wanting to get “touched” by this “move of God.”
Within weeks of my visit to Vineyard, I happened to catch a program on “holy” laughter on a local Christian TV station. The panel of guests was enthusiastically discussing “holy” laughter and endorsing it unquestioningly as a latter days “outpouring” of God’s Holy Spirit. Comparing “holy” laughter to the “work” of the Spirit at Pentecost, they were convinced that “holy” laughter was completely authentic. They equated “holy” laughter with the biblical notion of joy. As far as they were concerned, “holy” laughter was the “joy of the Lord.” Scriptural references to joy were cited; testimonies were given; songs were sung; and by the end of the program, I felt like I had just watched a one-hour infomercial on “holy” laughter.
Then, several weeks later, there was a program about “holy” laughter on the Trinity Broadcasting Network. While preacher Rodney Howard-Browne was giving what appeared to be a serious message, people in the audience were laughing wildly for no apparent reason. But Howard-Browne seemed oblivious to the disruption and kept on preaching. Then when the laughter was at its height, he began incorporating all that was happening into his sermon. He said that the “holy” laughter they were experiencing was a last days expression of God’s “Holy Spirit.” He also compared the “Spirit” that was manifesting to the Spirit at Pentecost. He reminded his audience how those gathered in the upper room had been viewed by others as being “drunk” on alcohol when in fact they were “drunk” in the Spirit.
Howard-Browne’s audience continued to laugh hilariously as he spoke of a present-day “revival” and how “holy” laughter was ushering in this “revival.” At the end of the service, Howard-Browne shuffled around the huge assembly hall, now breaking into long fits of laughter himself. As he walked around, talking and laughing and speaking in tongues, he began to lay hands on people. After he said “be filled” and repeated the phrase “from the top of your head to the tips of your toes,” people fell to the ground in hysterical laughter. As the program ended, the evangelist continued to weave his way amongst the fallen bodies, many of them still convulsed in laughter.
Also during this time, I was sent a copy of a flyer saying that Charles and Frances Hunter, the authors of a new book titled Holy Laughter, were coming to Portland, Maine. The flyer said, “God is filling the church with holy laughter! Come and receive a baptism of joy! You will never be the same! Don’t miss this unforgettable move of the Holy Spirit!” Another book on “holy” laughter titled Fresh Anointing: Another Great Awakening, was also brought to my attention at this time. In it, author Mona Johnian describes the “holy” laughter “revival” that erupted in her Boston church after she and her husband attended a meeting led by Rodney Howard-Browne.
In the midst of this same two-month period, there was yet another program on “holy” laughter. I was watching a locally televised church service, and the guest preacher was Richard Roberts, the president of Oral Roberts University and son of Oral Roberts. His whole sermon was on “holy” laughter and how it had changed his life and ministry. He described how “revival” had come to Oral Roberts University. Roberts explained how he had canceled classes for two days so that his four thousand students could personally experience the “joy of the Lord” and receive the “gift” of “holy” laughter. I was not surprised to learn that the “revival” Roberts was describing had come through the person of Rodney Howard-Browne.
And then to round out my summer crash course on the subject of “holy” laughter, the August issue of Charisma magazine had Rodney Howard-Browne on its cover. He was clearly the man of the hour. The cover story on this by now wildly popular “Holy Ghost bartender” was titled “Praise the Lord and Pass the New Wine.” The article was yet one more endorsement of Howard-Browne and “holy” laughter. And what I was starting to realize was that all of the “holy” laughter I had recently encountered—the TV programs, the books, the various “anointings, and “revivals” could all be traced back to him: Toronto Vineyard, San Francisco Vineyard, the Hunters, Mona Johnian, Richard Roberts, and all the rest. The Charisma article described Rodney Howard-Browne as the “spiritual conduit” for “holy” laughter. But I wanted to know how Rodney Howard-Browne got his “anointing?”
The Charisma article stated that in South Africa, in the summer of 1979, Howard-Browne “spent hours praying for a deeper experience with God.” In the midst of his prayers, he is quoted as having told God, “Either you come down here and touch me, or I will come up there and touch you.” Charisma said that suddenly in the midst of that prayer Howard-Browne’s “whole body felt like it was on fire. He began to laugh uncontrollably. Then he wept and began to speak in tongues.” In Howard-Browne’s book The Touch of God, Charisma quotes him as saying, “I was plugged into heaven’s electric supply, and since then my desire has been to go and plug other people in.”
And certainly one of the most outstanding characteristics of Howard-Browne’s “anointing” and the whole “laughing revival” is that it is so immediately transferable from person to person. Those “anointed” by Howard-Browne can now “anoint” others. And that is what’s happening. The “Spirit” that visited Howard-Browne has exponentially multiplied as it has been passed on from person to person around the world. A video advertised in that same August issue of Charisma documents the spread of Howard-Browne’s “holy” laughter. It is titled The Laugh that was Heard ‘round the World.
The “holy” laughter “revival” started by Howard-Browne is spreading like wildfire around the world. A recent conference sponsored by Toronto Vineyard drew 2300 pastors from countries as far away as Cambodia. They had all come to observe the “laughing revival” that was now being called “The Toronto Blessing.” Even skeptical pastors were getting “hit” with the “Spirit” and then taking that “Spirit” back to their churches and towns.
Howard-Browne’s “laughing revival” has now officially moved into the Christian mainstream with a recent endorsement from Pat Robertson on his popular 700 Club. On October 27, 1994, Robertson said this about holy laughter:
[W]hat this says to me is revival is taking place in the world in a mass wave . . . and we look to the coming of the Lord. I think this is a very encouraging sign in the middle of all this trouble and all these wars and all this confusion. God is saying I’m on the throne and I’m going to touch multiplied millions. It’s wonderful. I applaud it.
But what does the Bible say about laughter?
Last summer, after watching Rodney Howard-Browne on TBN, I consulted my concordance to see if there was any biblical precedent for “holy” laughter. Surprisingly, I found only 40 references to laughter in the Bible; 34 of them were in the Old Testament, while only six were in the New Testament. Of those 40 references, 22 of them referred to scornful laughter, as in Nehemiah 2:19 when Nehemiah said, “they laughed us to scorn.” Of the 18 remaining references to laughter, seven of them referred exclusively to Abraham and Sarah’s initial disbelief and ultimate astonishment that God would give them a child in their old age. Barely into my study on laughter, I was already down to my last 11 references.
In Job 8:21, Bildad, one of Job’s false comforters, wrongly advised Job that if he were in right standing with God he would be prosperous and full of laughter. The Psalmist in Psalm 126:2 recorded that when the captivity of Zion was over, “then was our mouth filled with laughter and our tongue with singing.” Proverbs 29:9 says, “if a wise man contendeth with a foolish man, whether he rage or laugh, there is no rest.”
With only eight remaining references, I had seen nothing in the Bible up to this point that suggested anything even resembling “holy” laughter. In Ecclesiastes 2:2, Solomon says, “I said of laughter, it is mad.” Ecclesiastes 3:4 says, there is “a time to weep and a time to laugh; a time to mourn and a time to dance.” Ecclesiastes 7:3-4 says, “sorrow is better than laughter: for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better. The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth.” Ecclesiastes 7:6 says, “for as the crackling of thorns under a pot, so is the laughter of a fool: this also is vanity.” Ecclesiastes 10:19 says that “a feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry.”
Interestingly the Bible’s last three references to laughter—the only three references to authentic laughter in the New Testament—warn against laughter. These three references actually seemed to underline Solomon’s contention in Ecclesiastes that “sorrow is better that laughter” and that now is a time to weep and not to laugh. In Luke 6:21, Jesus says, “blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.” In Luke 6:25, Jesus says, “woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.” James 4:9 tells us not to laugh but to “be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.”
I had searched the Scriptures to find any biblical precedent for “holy” laughter, and there was none. To my amazement, I had discovered surprisingly few references in the Bible to any kind of laughter. Did this mean that God doesn’t have a sense of humor or that people in the Bible never laughed? No. It just meant that laughter apparently was not something God chose to emphasize very much. And certainly Jesus’ last words on laughter—”woe unto you who laugh now!”—were not ones that would seem to give any encouragement to a “laughing revival.”
The Lord says, “Come now, and let us reason together” (Isaiah 1:18).
14 Concerns About “Holy” Laughter and the “Laughing Revival”
(1) There is no biblical precedent for “holy” laughter.
Laughter is rarely mentioned in the Bible. Yet, when it is, the Bible seems to make more of a case for holy sorrow than for “holy” laughter. Scripture supports Solomon’s contention that “sorrow is better than laughter.” It does not support the present “laughing revival.”
(2) Substituting the word joy for laughter is a non sequitur. It is inaccurate and misleading.
There is no scriptural authority for equating biblical references to joy with the involuntary manifestations of “holy” laughter. Just because there are insufficient Bible texts to make the case for “holy” laughter, it does not follow that you can simply redefine the word laughter by substituting the word joy.
(3) “Holy” laughter advocates rarely, if ever, discuss the need to test the spirits.
The Bible warns us that not every supernatural manifestation is necessarily from God. 1 John 4:1 says, “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” Charles and Francis Hunter write in their book Holy Laughter, “Once you begin to walk in the supernatural you really have to be ready for anything and everything and never question the way God does it!”
(4) “Holy” laughter advocates rarely, if ever, talk about the Spirit’s express warning that in the latter times some people will be supernaturally seduced by deceptive evil spirits into following them and not the one true God.
1 Timothy 4:1 warns, “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.”
(5) “Holy” laughter advocates rarely, if ever, talk about the Bible’s warnings of false prophets who come in the name of Jesus but bring with them “another spirit.”
2 Corinthians 11:4 says, “For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.”
(6) Many laughter advocates condescendingly discourage and even openly intimidate sincere Christians who question the “laughing revival.”
According to the August 1994 Charisma article, Rodney Howard-Browne “disparages” people who “try to apply theological tests” to what he does. The Hunters’ book Holy Laughter refers to skeptics as God’s “frozen chosen.” Mona Johnian writes, “skeptics, hesitators and procrastinators do not get anointed.” She warns that “any person or church that wavered could be eliminated.”
(7) Rodney Howard-Browne’s prayer to God just prior to his “anointing” (“either You come down here and touch me or I’ll come up there and touch You”) is unscriptural.
Howard-Browne’s prayer was, in essence, “my will be done.” It was not “thy will be done” as taught by Jesus in Scripture. Why should we automatically assume it was God who answered his prayer?
(8) “Holy” laughter advocates, in talking about “signs and wonders,” rarely, if ever, mention the Bible’s many warnings about deceptive signs and wonders.
In Matthew 16:4 Jesus warns, “a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign.” In Matthew 24:24, Jesus says, “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” In 2 Thessalonians 2:9, the apostle Paul warns of the coming Antichrist, “even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.”
(9) “Holy” laughter advocates seem to lay hands on almost everybody. The Bible specifically warns against this.
The eighth chapter of Acts describes how the disciples would not lay hands on Simon, a baptized believer, even though he desperately wanted the gift of the Holy Ghost, because his heart was “not right in the sight of God.” 1 Timothy 5:22 warns us to “lay hands suddenly on no man.” Yet “holy” laughter is passed on from person to person without so much as a second thought.
(10) “Holy” laughter advocates blatantly disregard the biblical admonition that things be done decently and in order.
1 Corinthians 14:40 says, “Let all things be done decently and in order.” Mona Johnian in her book Fresh Anointing says, “decently and in order! We must do things decently and in order. The Bible itself commands it, cry those who are frightened by that which is beyond traditional order.”3 She advises her readers to “break with tradition.”4
(11) The chaos and confusion that usually characterizes the “laughing revival” contradicts the Bible’s description of the Person of God.
1 Corinthians 14:33 states, “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”
(12) Laughter advocates rarely if ever, discuss the well-documented demonic deceptions that have manifested in past revivals.
To combat the deception that arose during the Welsh revival at the turn of this century, authors Jessie Penn-Lewis and Evan Roberts wrote War on the Saints: a disclosure of the deceptive strategies used by evil spirits against God’s people. Both were very involved with the revival and were extremely concerned about the demonic manifestations that began to dominate their meetings. The foreword to War on the Saints warns of “the grave dangers that beset the path of uninformed enthusiasm.”
(13) A number of Christians have experienced the equivalent of “holy” laughter when they were in the New Age.
Indian Guru Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh was affectionately known by his followers as the “divine drunkard” because he was reputed to have drunk so deeply from the well of the “Divine.” As a former follower of Rajneesh, I met hundreds of Sannyasins who had flown to India “to drink” from “Bhagwan’s wine.” When followers were physically touched by Rajneesh, or even if they were merely in his presence, they would often experience feelings of great exhilaration and joy. Disciples of Swami Baba Muktananda would often manifest uncontrollable laughter after receiving Shaktipat (physical contact) from the guru.
(14) The “laughing revival” could one day merge with what the New Age calls the coming day of “Planetary Pentecost.”
Barbara Marx Hubbard (revered New Age leader and a 1984 Democratic nominee for the Vice Presidency of the United States) writes in her book, Teachings from the Inner Christ, how the human race will soon experience a day of “Planetary Pentecost.” Hubbard, claiming to be in contact with “Christ,” writes, “the Planetary Smile is another name for the Planetary Pentecost. When enough of us share a common thought of our oneness with God, Spirit will be poured out on all flesh paying attention.”5 In her book The Revelation, Hubbard says that “Christ” (in describing the Planetary Smile) said,
An uncontrollable joy will ripple through the thinking layer of the Earth. The co-creative systems, which are lying psychologically dormant in humanity will be activated. From within, all sensitive persons will feel the joy of the force, flooding their systems with love and attraction . . . as this joy flashes through the nervous systems of the most sensitive peoples on Earth, it will create a psycho magnetic field of empathy, which will align the next wave of people in synchrony, everywhere on Earth. This massive, sudden empathic alignment will cause a shift in the consciousness of Earth. 6
Writing in Happy Birth Day Planet Earth, Hubbard repeats what she heard from “Christ.” He said:
As the planetary smile ripples through the nervous systems of Earth, and the instant of co-operation begins, and empathy floods the feelings of the whole body of Earth, separation is overcome, and I appear to all of you at once.7
The controversy over “holy” laughter is splitting congregations and causing deep divisions in the body of Christ. And while many people have already taken sides, there are many more who are still trying to figure out just what is going on. Is this really a move of God, or is this the kind of deception the Bible warns about in Matthew 24, 1 Timothy 4:1, and in the second chapter of Thessalonians?
Unity is indeed the heartfelt desire of every sincere Christian (Psalm 133:1). But the Bible warns of massive deception that will come at the end and in Christ’s name. Before the Church—in the name of unity—free falls into a worldwide “laughing revival,” we had better be sure what it is we are uniting with.
In reflecting on “holy” laughter during these very troubled times, I recalled a music special I had seen on television a number of years ago. In the midst of an otherwise polite Hollywood type crowd, a male vocalist sang straight faced and sober into the teeth of their celebration. His words were electric and piercing, and they seemed to hang in the air. He sang, “You’re laughing now, but you should be praying. You’re in the midnight hour of your life.”
Some Examples of “Holy” Laughter in Other Religions
1) Kundalini Energy is typically described as a powerful energy source lying dormant in the form of a coiled serpent at the base of the human spine. When freed, it reputedly has the capacity to effect great physical healings. Christina and Stanislov Grof, New Age authors of the book The Stormy Search for the Self, describe how the awakening of Kundalini energy can be triggered by an advanced spiritual teacher or guru. And how the awakening can bring up memories of past psychological traumas. The Grofs state that:
Individuals involved in this process might find it difficult to control their behavior; during power rushes of Kundalini energy, they often emit various involuntary sounds, and their bodies move in strange and unexpected patterns. Among the most common manifestations . . . are unmotivated and unnatural laughter or crying, talking tongues . . . and imitating a variety of animal sounds and movements.8
The Grofs also state that “careful study of the manifestations of Kundalini awakening confirm that this process, although sometimes very intense and shattering, is essentially healing.
Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, the former Oregon guru, tells one of his followers in his book Dance Your Way To God:
Just be joyful . . . God is not serious . . . this world cannot fit with a theological God . . . so let this be your constant reminder—that you have to dance your way to God, to laugh your way to God.9
Often referred to as being “drunk on the divine,” Rajneesh encouraged his followers to come and “drink” from him. Bhagwan’s spiritual “wine” was often passed along with a single touch to the head. Many of his Sannyasins would fall to the floor in ecstasy after their encounters with Rajneesh.
Ramakrishna, an Indian saint, “daily went into ‘samahdi,’ a trance in which one involuntarily falls down unconscious and enters a rapturous state of super-conscious bliss (ananda), complete with beautiful visions and often involving astral projection. These states could last anywhere from a few minutes to several days and were often accompanied by uncontrollable laughter or weeping. He could send others into this state with a single touch to the head or chest.”10
Swami Baba MuktanAnda would transfer what was called “guru’s grace” to his followers through Shaktipat (physical touch). This “grace” triggered the gradual awakening of the Kundalini, which in turn produced various physical and emotional manifestations. Manifestations included uncontrollable laughing, roaring, barking, hissing, crying, shaking, etc. Some devotees became mute or unconscious. Many felt themselves being infused with feelings of great joy and peace and love. At other times, the “fire” of Kundalini was so overwhelming they would find themselves involuntarily hyperventilating to cool themselves down.11
2) African Kung Bushmen of the Kalahari—The Grofs, in their book The Stormy Search for the Self, also cite an interesting parallel between the Kundalini awakening and the trance dance of the African Kung bushmen. During rituals, the bushmen “enter a profound altered state of consciousness associated with the release of powerful emotions such as anger, anxiety, and fear. They are often unable to maintain an upright position and are overcome by violent shaking. Following these dramatic experiences, they typically enter a state of ecstatic rapture. According to the bushmen tradition, the dance releases from the base of the spine a cosmic healing force called ntum or ‘medicine.’ This is then passed by direct physical contact from one person to another.”12
3) Qigong (ancient Chinese practice)—Yan Xin, a Chinese Qigong master known to most of the over one billion people in China, gave a talk in San Francisco in 1991. Seventeen hundred devotees, most of them Chinese, showed up at the Masonic Auditorium to listen to Yan. The San Francisco Chronicle reported that “minutes into his talk, several began experiencing what Yan Xin calls spontaneous movements.” The Chronicle reporter said that “before long, the scene resembled a Pentecostal prayer meeting with many people waving their arms and making unintelligible sounds.” Yan told his audience, “Those who are sensitive might start having some strong physical sensations—or start laughing or crying. Don’t worry. This is quite normal.” The article said that “since 1985, when a Qigong revival started sweeping China, 50 to 60 million Chinese have gone to see Yan.”13
4) Subud—According to The Encyclopedia of American Religions, the central element of the Subud faith is the practice of “latihan.” Latihan is the way one surrenders to the power of God. It is a group process. The Encyclopedia says:
The latihan proper is a time of moving the consciousness beyond mind and desire and allowing the power to enter and do its work . . . often accompanying the spontaneous period are various body movements and vocal manifestations—cries, moans, laughter and singing. These occur in the voluntary surrender of the self to the power. During this time, people report sensations of love and freedom and often, healings. All reach a higher level of consciousness.14
Endnotes:
- You can watch this video at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jduW9apCP1c.
- Charles and Frances Hunter, Holy Laughter, p. 65.
- Mona Johnian, Fresh Anointing, p. 35
- Ibid., p. 45.
- Barbara Marx Hubbard, Teachings from the Inner Christ, p. 79.
- Barbara Marx Hubbard, The Revelation, pp. 234-235.
- Barbara Marx Hubbard, Happy Birth Day Planet Earth, pp. 10-11.
- Christina and Stanislov Grof, The Stormy Search for the Self, pp. 78-79.
- Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, Dance Your Way To God, p. 229.
- From an unpublished article by John Rice on file at Spiritual Counterfeits Project.
- Per former Muktananda follower Joy Smith.
- Christina and Stanislov Grof, The Stormy Search for the Self, op. cit.
- San Francisco Chronicle, May 16, 1991.
- J. Gordon Melton, The Encyclopedia of American Religions.
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One of the scariest things I have ever heard is the sound of demonic cackling from people who are supposedly under this "holy laughter" nonsense. It's chilling because it not only sounds bizarre, but because it is not fake; it is not normal laughter. It's disturbing. I recently listened, on a recent program of Fighting for the Faith, Roland Baker (husband of Heidi Baker) start laughing like this and getting other people in the audience howling with this otherworldly cackling. Cree-py!
Here is God's thought:
"He who sits in the heavens laughs, The Lord scoffs at them." Psalm 2; 4
Laughter is good in the sense that it is healthy for you in many ways. But that is it. There is nothing 'holy' about it and that just makes a circus out of it in an irreverent way. I know what that person is talking about with the demonic laughter, I've witnessed it too. It is a real sneery-snide sadistical laugh. Yes, definitely beware of this. It is a counterfeit work from the occult.
And the bible tells us in the end (in case anyone is still not up to speed on this… we are in the end), in the end there will be a great…. apostasy. No revival, no awakening, no outpouring of the Spirit, etc. I've seen the bible verses they use to support this, but they twist it. I've read the whole bible time and again and there is nothing in there about an end times revival. Nothing! They always cite that Joel thing about 'in the latter days God will pour out His Spirit on all flesh' but that was pentecost (the end times relatively speaking). How do I know? Because Peter told me so. In Acts Peter interprets the verse in Joel to refer to Pentecost and the outpouring there. Scripture interprets scripture. Just read Joel and Acts 1-4. The other one is a twisting which turned into the 'latter rain' movement because of a bible verse talking about the early and later rains. It has nothing to do with the Spirit. And that's all folks.
Hi Victoria,
Yes we are in the end, but the apostasy started long ago when the truth of the Bible was exchanged for the precepts of men. Lose your teaching of dispensation and church ages, on the perfection being the Bible and reread the texts and you'll find the Holy Spirit and His giftings are still alive and present today for all people, Peter told me so. I know, I know you always cite that perfection thing that the gifts ended when perfection came according to 1Cor 13…
I looked in a concordance for eternal security and could find no references, so what does that say?
But I do agree, and didn't need to check a concordance. The Holy Spirit does not bear witness to it. I've never understood the "slain in the spirit", holy laughter, "angel dust" or any of these signs. The signs are listed clearly by Paul and these folks are opened up to a delusion and the ramifications thereof. Paul makes no mention of Kundalini expressions. I've seen Todd Bently's adulteress and she looks like she's choking on a chicken bone. But what would you expect when they've turned from God ( I use that loosely ) to live in sin. Paul had to reign in the Corinthians but he didn't shut them down.
I looked in a concordance for eternal security and could find no references, so what does that say? All that aside, unholy laughter, slain in the spirit, kundalini, don't blame that on those of us following the Bible. Sin is rampant and deception runs on both sides of the coin.
Just because the term 'eternal security' is not referenced in a concordance does not mean that the doctrine is not taught in scripture.
"Many Bible passages emphasize the reality of our security as believers in Jesus Christ: John 10:27-30; 13:1; Romans 8:29-39; Ephesians 1:13; 4:30; Jude 1:24.:24." Read entire article here..(not long and has a good explanation of eternal security) http://questions.org/attq/should-i-believe-in-the…
What do you do with this passage of scripture if you reject eternal security…John 6:37-39
37
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."
If Christ loses those whom the Father has given to Him, then He would be guilty of sin because He did not do the will of the Father. If He did not do the will of the Father, He could not be our Savior.
so why did you skip vs 40? For my Fathers will is that everyone who looks to the Son AND BELIEVES in Him shall have eternal life.
If you lose faith and no longer believe you are lost.
You make my point clearly, parsing out of text to prove your point instead of using the full context. What does that Lyn say "Sola Scripturala"(sic)….
Paul addresses the Gnostic attempts at troubling believers that somehow their salvation needs more after death (see RCC ) I don't need to go to your link, been there, read over two years of Jack Kinsella's false teachings so I know all you ins and outs. I give you the same challenge that I gave before Lose your dispensationalism, your bema seat and rewards, your eternal security and church age malarky and then study the Bible. I gave the same challenge to the Mormons and they wouldn't do it either. Your teaching is false, a satanic deception and you should repent before it's too late.
You people keep projecting some image of a growing mountain of irrevocable souls. Where Jesus says I don't care if you no longer believe you can't get away. Sorry but the text is true 2Tim 2:11-12 "If we died with Him we will also live with Him; if we endure we will also reign with Him. If we disown Him,He will also disown us."
First of all, the faith believers in Christ have is a gift of God {Ephesians 2:8-9}. Since it does NOT originate with us, we cannot lose it.
Christ teaches this from John's Gospel, " And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." It's quite clear, once God saves us, we cannot remove ourselves from Him.
This is from Hebrews 7:25, "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."
From 1 John 5, " He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." It does not say 'he that hath the Son may have life, but can lose it'. The verse that follows is equally assuring, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
Let's not forget this from John's Gospel as well, John 6:39. “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at that last day.”
When one rightly understands that salvation is all of God and not of man, then one rightly understands you cannot lose what didn't originate with you in the first place.
As for your 'proof text', from Paul's epistle to Timothy, it's quite clear Paul was not referencing to true believers in Christ when he states 'if we deny Him, He will also deny us'. Scripture does not contradict itself; so who was Paul referring to? Let's not forget, Peter denied Christ 3 times – was he forever lost? Hardly. Peter was brought to repentance shortly after his denial, we see this in the Scriptures that state 'he wept bitterly'. This wasn't just a little whimper, this was a wailing cry because Peter had been broken over his sin of denying His Lord and Master. True repentance is wrought by God in the hearts of His people. Those who deny Christ and do not repent are what we call 'false converts'. They will fall away, which the parable of the soils tells us clearly. The 'stony ground' professor of Christ is the one who " heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away." Matthew 13:20-21
The teachings you spew out are false 'godsfingers', you are not rightly dividing God's precious truth. If you do not have the foundations right, you will not understand anything after that.
You still don't get it, you're so ingrained with falsehoods.
Faith isn't a gift, salvation is. Faith is man's (works if you will) step to receive that gift. Faith can be lost and along with it the gift it carried. You quoted John 6 and like your predecessor conveniently skipped John 6:40 "For my Fathers will is that everyone who looks to the Son AND BELIEVES in Him shall have eternal life". It doesn't say believes at least once.
Then you pull the punches on the 2Tim text well, duh a believer wouldn't deny Christ. But then you go into the false converts thingy (again a need to make something up to cover an untruth, watch out for your wickedness) and twisting the Bible to suit your needs. Now you said the Bible doesn't contradict itself so we'll go to Simon Majus in Acts 8:13 "Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Phillip astonished at the great signs and miracles he saw". Now he was also denied the baptism of the Holy Spirit and would return to his sorcery and die from it. So is the Bible wrong? Was he one of your false converts? Do you know better than those operating in the Holy Spirit? And you reference to the parable of the sower and your 20-40-80 % rule is not what Jesus was teaching it's your man made excuse again. Jesus said what He said, that some would believe but not being rooted will wither and die, some will go back to the world and some would live and produce. Sorry girl, Paul wasn't mincing words in 2Tim if you deny Christ He will deny you PERIOD.
In regard to Peter, if you weren't so busy dividing the Word instead of putting it together you'd see the wonderful parallel of grace, Peter and Judas both denied Christ yet took two different paths. Judas denied Gods sovereignty and killed himself while Peter left himself open to Gods grace and restoration. Where did your forever lost thing come from????False converts? Another of your man made inventions.
No one has come with an answer to Charles Templeton according to your dogma (that's what it is, like the catholics). According to what you're saying he never was in Christ. He just ministered, and worked closely with Billy Graham but was an unbeliever. Is that true? Hardly, but what he did do is, like Eve, let one little question gnaw at him until he turned away. According to what you say, how can I have the confidence now when it could (according to you) be a false conversion down the road?
Listening to you folks is kind of like listening to the Liar-in-chief and his minions who keep talking global waring, gun control, government controlled kids despite the facts. They're so immersed in their lies they cant or won't see the truth, much like you.
You said I am not rightly dividing God's precious truth, sorry but I have no intent on dividing God's truth. You on the other hand should get out of the KJV and quit dividing God's truth, it's best left whole.
You do realize that in the context of Hebrews 7:17-28 Paul is showing that Christ can forever intercede because he has been resurrected and he lives forever as apposed to the earthly priests who die. Keep it in context, quit picking and choosing and parsing. The verse says He is able, not He is doing.
Regarding eternal security: John 10:27-28, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."
I did not 'skip' vs. 40 and you did not comment on the verses I did quote. How Jesus could lose those the Father has given to Him if He always does the will of His Father? It is a reasonable question.
Verse 40 in no way negates the truth of eternal security. If faith is a work of man; then yes, he can lose his salvation because it depends on him. Vs. 40 says, everyone who looks to the Son and believes has eternal life. But even believing is not something men can take credit for… that, too, is a work and gift of God. Men dead in their sins cannot respond to God nor will they even seek Him unless He breathes new life into them. Salvation is ALL of God from start to finish because God is Sovereign… not controlled in even the slightest way by the decisions of men.
Is faith a gift of God or a work of man? http://www.gty.org/resources/bible-qna/BQ053113/I…
Fellow believers who disagree with you are not, as you stated in a previous reply to Lyn, 'minions' of the 'Liar-in-Chief who are ''so immersed in their lies they cant or won't see the truth…". Statements like that make it difficult to have a constructive discussion with you. As Christians, we are allowed to have differing opinions on matters that are non-essentials to the faith and we should discuss those issues in ways that uplift rather than tear down.
Hebrews 10:21-29 talk about backsliding.
I'm sorry it should be Hebrews 10:26-31
godsfingers, when the Bible speaks of God being eternal, do you believe that? What does eternal mean? Forever, right? Well, it's the same word, eternal, when God speaks of salvation. When Yeshua speaks of giving the believer eternal life, this is precisely what He means. Eternal. Forever. Never-ending. When a person believes the Gospel, God gives him eternal life, never to be revoked. If you can "lose" it, then it's not eternal and God is a liar, for He clearly says that He gives the believer eternal life.
Therefore, anyone who falls away only proves that they were never truly saved in the first place. Yeshua says of those who falsely profess to believe, "I never knew you." In other words, they didn't lose salvation; they never had it in the first place. He never knew them.
I know you accuse lyn of twisting Scriptures, but can you not see how you are twisting John 6 to make eternal say something other than eternal?
Oh, one other thing. When you use the comparison of God being eternal to your salvation, God's eternal is alpha and omega. So by your definition I have been saved since the beginning of time and before and never ending. (oh no, here comes predestination).
Also, you have avoided the question of Simon Majus and Charles Templeton. I'd like that answered.
I would respond to your question about Simon of Acts 8, but I think you said somewhere that you don't believe in dispensations. Is that true? I can't remember if it was you. Anyway, if you're not a dispensationalist, you'll think my answer is ludicrous, so there may be no point to answering. In brief, I'll just say this: Acts 8 concerns the Kingdom and the Name of Christ, that is to say, the Gospel of the Kingdom. Simon believed this Gospel preached by Philip. Simon, along with other Samaritans, were baptized with water into the Name of Yeshua. They did NOT receive the Holy Spirit. Later, Peter and John went to Samaria and this is when the Holy Spirit was given. Notice that Simon did not receive the Spirit at that time, either.
The full answer is long because you have to re-read the synoptic accounts and then read Acts to see the change of dispensations and the different programs of God at that time. Suffice it to say that Simon was not a born again believer because he did not receive the Spirit. His belief was only in what he thought the Kingdom could do for him, not unlike the false disciples throughout Yeshua's ministry who eventually turned aside. Re-read the accounts and see who stayed and who left. Those who left were only in it for themselves, proving that they were not true believers.
I expected this answer. Yes, it is me and dispensation is just a convenient coverup and that's why so much of this is ludicrous. So you say that Phillips ministry was useless? Now according to you, then, the only way to receive the Holy Spirit is by the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the laying on of hands. Because that was what Peter and John came to minister. And that Simon Majus really wasn't a believer (so the Bible lied?). So, according to you that poor Ethiopian that only heard the Gospel and got water baptized wasn't saved and never had a chance given that there is no indication that anyone went to Ethiopia to baptize him in the Holy Spirit. To my understanding you keep moving the dispensation ties then from what others have said so why should I believe that?
Now it's really mixed up. Sorry, I may minister in AG but I don't hold to the baptizim of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues as a sign of salvation, nothing to substantiate it. They are two separate things.
And then your standard fall back is that Charles Tempelton was never a "true believer"? Now you've come to a point that is very circular. I've said all along that if you hold on to your faith till death your salvation is secure, and now your saying that if you don't hold on to your faith then you weren't a true believer. SO what's the difference, why do you have to teach "eternal security", why the need for such vernacular and deep teaching? Why the ignorance of the fact that your teaching leads many down the road to perdition. Why infer that your conversion isn't sure until you die?
Ok, I'll try to stay simplistic. Essentially I've been saying all along is that when you die, believing, your salvation is secure. That's what Paul was teaching to offset the Gnostics. But now you're saying that your salvation is not secure. Let me show you. In 2008 a ton of people believed in obama, in 2012 not nearly a ton of people believed in obama, now the numbers are dwindling. According to you, then, they didn't really believe in obama in the first place. Correct, yes? So some under your teaching are going to go to hell because they thought they were secure.
Jesus knows and warned in the parable of the sower, it wasn't some level of commitment, it was the same starting point for all, the same dieing and regeneration ( that's why he chose seeds) different results. Then the epistles warn about partaking in the things that will end up putting you on the wayside. But then some just take those epistles and change them that in falling away you just lose your rewards of crowns, NOT! Frankly if I had sinning pulling me in I'm not worried about crowns and rewards, just keep me out of hell and I'll have fun here.
No, I didn't twist scripture. How can requiring the qualifier part of the text be included twisting? Cutting off the qualifying statement and qualifying it with your own verbiage is twisting. I've even had some refer me to John 17:11-12, "I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you.Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name-the name you gave me-so that may be as one as we are one. While I was with them I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost.". Pretty powerful stuff, did you notice why? Get back to me when you figure it out.
In your third paragraph you give away a statement that surrounds the teaching as a whole, it's fear or embarrassment for God. God is not a liar. We run a race to secure the crown (that would be a prize for running at the time, now we get trophies and medals). You don't get the reward until the race is over, quit the race and no prize, not even a participants t shirt. But you all started at the same place.
I guess you could say my eternity is secure because I'm not going to partake in the things that would drag me down, no sipping saints, tobacco, cussing, etc I'll take a bullet or machete first.
"In 2008 a ton of people believed in obama, in 2012 not nearly a ton of people believed in obama, now the numbers are dwindling. According to you, then, they didn't really believe in obama in the first place."
Sorry, godsfingers, but that is not a valid analogy. What does human belief in another person have to do with regeneration by the Holy Spirit that results in belief in the Lord Yeshua? Believing in another person is not a "born from above" experience. Salvation is not human wrought, it is a work of God that is miraculous. Using that analogy does show where you're coming from, though, and it's not Biblical. Human belief is always faulty, but thank God that when He regenerates a person, it's sure and eternal.
"In your third paragraph you give away a statement that surrounds the teaching as a whole, it's fear or embarrassment for God."
Pointing out that God's word is truth is not based on fear or embarrassment for God. It's simply to say that if we cannot take Him at His word concerning the eternal nature of salvation, then we cannot take Him at His word concerning anything else. If you believe that His declaration of eternal life may not actually be eternal, how can you trust that His blood paid for your sins at all?
"I guess you could say my eternity is secure because I'm not going to partake in the things that would drag me down…"
I'm sorry that you don't understand grace, godsfingers. Really, I'm not being flippant, but I grieve for you because you are depending on your own works rather than His grace. All believers have eternal life because of the blood of Christ, not because of the works one performs, either before or after salvation. Romans 4:4-5; Romans 11:6; Galatians 1:1-3.
But you are being flippant. I understand grace (unmerited favor) and the act of grace that occurred over 2000 years ago that can't be undone. Jesus died, on the cross, for the sins of all, that act is eternal. Now faith is mortal not something magical that you and Lyn have inferred. You don't get saved and then faith follows in an angelic envelope. The disciples prayed, "increase my faith", faith is built, faith is what keeps you hanging on, enduring to the end as Jesus said. Jesus dying on the cross didn't save you, faith does (an action word) not did. Why do you folks play ignorant of the scriptures constant warning not to play down the slippery slope lest you fall away, lose faith, and die? It's not works to achieve salvation, it's action to maintain the gift that, yes, you can lose if you give up due to failing faith. In all it's efforts to create an anti-catholic dogma it, in itself, Reformed Theology holds unbiblical mysticism not unlike it's antitheses .
you state in your opinion – " Now faith is mortal not something magical that you and Lyn have inferred. " Nowhere do I state faith is 'magical'. What I do state is what the Bible teaches, faith is a gift. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. " Ephesians 2:8-9
The phrase 'and that' is a neuter demonstrative pronoun; meaning it has to agree in gender and in number with its antecedent. 'And THAT" is neither male nor female, it has no gender. 'Demonstrative' means it has to point to a particular thing; now, faith is feminine, so it doesn't agree in gender with 'and that', meaning 'that' is not pointing to faith. However, the word 'grace' is also feminine and does not agree in gender, the same holds true for the word 'salvation', it's masculine in gender…none of those words agree in gender with 'and that'! There's a rule in Greek grammar that whenever you find this kind of sentence construction, the writer did it on purpose because he was NOT trying to point to any one word – 'and that' refers to the WHOLE collective phrase! – 'grace, saved, faith' make up that collective phrase.
see the complete and accurate teaching of this text at http://youtu.be/o3dodm97SY4
Lyn you state your opinion and then hand the ball off to another's opinion. All I can say is WOW, the depths you seek. Quoted right from the youtube. Remember, I have no respect for reformed theology teachers.
In regard your beginning comment, yes you did, you stated that you get regenerated and then get faith as a gift from God. Again, let's get to the point, if the faith is from God and untouchable how can you lose faith? And skip the not a true believer thing because he/she wouldn't have faith to lose, no to mention the pistis (the same word through out) that believers have and can lose. Thank you for your fine forensic explanation but it doesn't hold water through the entirety of scripture.
I stated biblical truth, pointing to the original language and the grammatical construction of the sentence. I've not presented a 'theology' rather, rightly dividing God's word. Rather than speak your opinions, show, from Scripture, the error of the teaching presented.
Another text that states faith is of God is found in 2 Thess. 1:11, " Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power".
Being regenerated is not magical – it's supernatural. Faith is God's gift to His elect, it cannot be lost. Ponder these verses, "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" Phil. 1:6 -God will finish what He started in His elect. From 1 Cor. 1:8, " who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." Again, almighty, powerful God will sustain His elect, not maybe, but with certainty.
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:28-29b). These are Christ's own words, 'they shall NEVER perish". Rightly understanding the power of God in saving a soul will open this truth up.
Psalm 37:28, "For the LORD loves justice; he will not forsake his saints. They are preserved forever, but the children of the wicked shall be cut off. " The clarity of this text needs no added commentary.
You accuse, but you have nothing to defend your accusation with. Are we to take you at your word, as though it is infallible? I think not. If you want to debate, do so scripturally.
I guess to further discourse your forensics you fail to mention "it", it is singular one item unless you're treating "it" as a Christmas package. You focus on the words "and that" being non-gender. Why are you putting Greek gender on English words (by the way, I couldn't find the Greek for "and that")? So your whole false doctrine is predicated those two words. Which Greek did you and the youtuber examine to determine this? It's really another in the long list of cases determine false teaching from the doctrinal AKJV. The book you worship. And other worshipers in a long line of creating the fake defense of the "authority of the AKJV. You say you don't worship (venerate) it, let's take a quote from some AKJV supporters:
"As a final testimony to the excellence of the King James' version we may quote from Dr. F. W. Faber, who says: "Who will say that the uncommon beauty and marvelous English of the Protestant Bible is not one of the great strongholds against heresy in this country? It lives on the ear, like music that can never be forgotten, like the sound of church bells, which the convert hardly knows how he can forego. Its felicities often seem to be almost things rather than words. It is part of the national mind, and the anchor of national seriousness. Nay, it is worshiped with a positive idolatry, in extenuation of whose grotesque fanaticism its intrinsic beauty pleads availingly with the man of letters and the scholar. The memory of the dead passes into it. The potent traditions of childhood are stereotyped in its verses. The power of all the griefs and trials of a man are hid beneath its words. It is the representative of his best moments, and all that there has been about him of soft and gentle, and pure and penitent and good, speaks to him forever out of his Protestant Bible. It is a sacred thing which doubt has never dimmed and controversy never soiled.""
http://www.bible-researcher.com/kjvhist.html
The arrogance among you folks is great, and a concern and you make these folks in the post a small delusion
Jn 10:10 (NASB) The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
You are conflating positional sanctification (a legal decision not based on our righteousness but rather on the righteousness of Christ and our faith in Him) and experiential sanctification (walking/abiding). Both require faith and both offer eternal life: The first from the penalty of sin the second from the power of sin. Finally all justified will be glorified! These are three phases of God’s grace.
Jn 13:8-11 (NASB) Peter *said to Him, "Never shall You wash my feet!" Jesus answered him, " If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me." Simon Peter *said to Him, "Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head." Jesus *said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, "Not all of you are clean."
After initial faith, there are more opportunities to believe, and our quality of life gets better and better as our faith grows. This is not maintaining the gift. It is being fruitful.
There is a gospel for the saint just as there is a gospel for the unbeliever (Romans 6 comes to mind). Eternal life, death, saved… while having one meaning in each verse, these words do not always refer to justification.
Nice opening verse, is that an accusation? I actually had to look up conflate, I talk with farmers now. At my age I've probably forgotten more than you know.
I guess I'm keeping you all busy in your catechism and doctrine books. So according to you Paul is wrong when he says there is one Gospel? Like I said before, you folks are so immersed in your doctrine ( not Bible) that you sound like the liberals in Washington. In the face of facts you keep repeating the mantra over and over again hoping for different results. I an see why you all fawn over the garbage John McArthur puts out. Sorry, I prefer to be truthful over great…
PS.You said “I understand grace (unmerited favor) and the act of grace that occurred over 2000 years ago that can't be undone. Jesus died, on the cross”. That’s positional sanctification it cannot be undone.
Rom 6:6 Gal 2:20 2 Cor 5:14
Sorry, that's Galatians 3:1-3.
Regarding Hebrews 10 and Jeff's post on backsliding-
Please note the phrase "those who continue in sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth", the key word being "knowledge"- this is not a reference to born again, regenerate believers, they have received the Holy Spirit; this is clearly addressing professors, who sit in the pews and have heard the truth many times but their hearts are far from Him- even though they project a form of Godliness and call themselves Christians.
The regenerate believer can never be plucked from His hand! Hallelujah.
John 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Hi Toni,
If I follow you correctly, and yes, I agree with your first half post but I do have a question with the text. If the john 10:29 is to be taken contextually then I'm never going to perish because verse 28 says," I give them eternal life, and they shall NEVER perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand." Which part do we skip or do we admit that this whole context references after we die and He's talking about the second death. Because with that I wholeheartedly agree.
Godsfingers – I'm not sure I understand the question- I don't take anything in the Bible contextually- the verse is clearly saying that those who have received the "knowledge" (heard the truth), it does not say those who have received the Holy Spirit (the re-birth). The verses do not conflict: we are being told that once we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit we can never be pulled away from God, we will be raised after death and reside with Christ forever.
HuH? What does that have to do with John 10:28-29? Well, if you take verses one by one you set your self up for deception and error. Mormonism is built on one verse, does that make the LDS Christian? We went through the verses John 6:38-39, add verse 40 and the meaning changes.
Consider this verse: "And Judas hanged himself."
and Jesus said, "Then go do likewise".
Is that what Jesus was saying?
But then what you are saying about Hebrews 10:26 is also untrue because of what follows knowledge. Because if you sin and are not a true believer you still have a chance until you die, yet Paul says no sacrifice for sins is left, parallel to Hebrews 6:4 where he also doesn't say re-birth but he says "can not be brought BACK to repentance". You can't have it both ways. Splitting context, topic, narrative changes what the speaker is saying into what you want it to say. Again, why do the Apostles, all, say to persevere, press on, keep from falling if there is no earthly reason? It's not to make your own salvation, it's to keep you from losing it according to the Bible as opposed to man's creation.
When reading the creation of Reformed Theology there is a striking similarity to the development of Mormonism, or more directly any cult. It's partial text with much explanation and development. Hey we agree that when you die as a true believer, you can't lose it, it's eternal, but I don't have to make up excuses and long explanations about what happens before you die, in context it's clear.