It’s always heartbreaking when we hear of Christian leaders being charged with sexual abuse, as in the recent arrest of Saddleback youth worker Ruben Meulenberg. He was charged with 5 felonies:
- Three felony counts of lewd acts on a child
- Two felony counts of lewd acts on a child under 14-year-old
We urge our readers to pray for the victims and their families.
Staff worker or volunteer?
Saddleback cautiously put out a statement, and called Meulenberg a “student ministry volunteer.” Here is the full statement. However, Lighthouse Trails has since learned that Ruben Meulenberg is not merely a volunteer at Saddleback – he is also a staff member. The man and his twin brother serve on staff at Saddleback Church in the technology, communication and marketing ministries, according to sources:
If indeed Ruben Meulenberg is a staff member and one with a significant role in youth ministry at the mega church, then the statement released by Saddleback on May 26th has downplayed or minimized Meulenberg’s role at the church. (source)
The volunteer status is now a part of the official court record. Does it matter if his position is paid or unpaid? Is there a culpability factor? Additional details are here, along with the access Meulenberg had to children in his staff position.
If the name Meulenberg sounds familiar, it may be because his parents have long been on Saddleback’s payroll as staff members. His father, Abraham Meulenberg, was a pastor heading up Interfaith Outreach. You may remember the news publicity around his involvement with Rick Warren’s efforts to form alliances with the Muslim community in Orange County several years ago (which Saddleback denied).
Later, I was doing some research on the elder Meulenberg, and discovered that he and his wife were actually teaching the false “Kingdom Circles” doctrine at a P.E.A.C.E. Plan seminar in France. The Kingdom Circles teaching states that Muslims do not need to convert to Christianity – that they can remain Muslim – and still be in the Kingdom of God. You can see the K.O.G lesson plan behind Meulenberg in this photo:
Does anyone expect Saddleback to state the truth?
First I would like to say God Bless you all for speaking the Truth and being a light in these dark times. Indeed many wolves have entered and have divided and hurt the body of Christ. A few years back (1998) when God pulled me from my own demise and showed me His Truth through His Word I attended for a few short months North Coast Calvary in Carlsbad .ca. I remember being very uncomfortable and was wondering why the pastor of this large church would talk and talk about how wonderful his sons were because they were becoming famous (the so called Christian rock band switchfoot) and that they needed more money for their 8million dollar church and so on all the while I was asking for spiritual woman’s group which they ignored me and said that they were too busy? Well last week on the news their youth pastor who is 42 years old was arrested for the very same thing at saddleback church!! I do believe that judgement begins in the house of the Lord and that God is showing us the underbelly of these wayward churches who have turned their backs on the True and Living God and HIS word. What a blessing you all have been to me and my house we truly love you all at bereanresearch so much. I came out of Calvary chapel during pastor Chuck Smith’s era early 90s for me and it has been split,fractured in two and so many hurt by allowing the wolves to enter into their flocks. In the Name of JESUS CHRIST I pray that more people will have eyes to see and ears to hear God’s true and unchanging word. For God says what He means and means what He says. Thank you God Bless and protect us all. Shannon Brown.
this is sad on so many levels.
first and foremost for the victims and their families. something like this happening to their most loved at a place they feel they can trust. it’s devastating.
second for the meulenberg family. i can’t fathom why you would attack them for what ever they were teaching at some remote place of the world years back – at least not in this context. imaging your kid would do something like this. it’s God’s job to judge, not ours. you sound an awful lot like modern day pharisee.
third for the church. this isn’t only affecting saddleback but any church. i’m attending a relatively small church but i admire the work God is doing through saddleback church – despite the flaws they may have (btw, i know what volunteers at staff have to go through before working with kids so security checks isn’t one of those). they are jesus’ followers as we are. so it’s all HIS work. it’s our brothers and sisters, so how dare we to attack them. we need to love, pray and support them in this difficult time as well as the victims.
Saddleback teaches a false, ecumenical message and they are not confronting sin in their sermons. Sin is the very reason Jesus came to earth, and he paid for our sins with his blood. Any church that doesn’t teach the pure gospel message, and seeks to build bridges with false religions. As for judgement, Jesus told us we are supposed to judge, just not hypocritically (see John 7:24). Paul also addressed false teachers in the body many, many times. Here are a few:
“Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.”
Romans 16:17-18 KJV
“…“Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;”
Titus 1:13 KJV
“A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;”
Titus 3:10 KJV
@john walton I couldn’t agree with you more.
Let’s be clear sin is sin. My heart goes out to the families involved. We are to hate sin.
However let’s also be very very clear about where we are in this process. Ruben has been accused. It doesn’t mean he is guilty. Innocent until proven guilty. I suggest the finger pointers and the gossip mongers wait for the result of the trial before drawing any conclusions. (Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it’. James 4:11). Slander is when you spread stories and imply guilt about someone you don’t have all the facts about.
I pray the truth comes out as quickly as possible.
What I find disgusting is the glee and venom with which haters love to gloat at the downfall of others. King David mourned the death of Saul and Absalom because even though they were his enemies he still loved them. Jesus says ‘love your enemies’.
However I see brothers hating each other, simply because their doctrine disagrees. Disgusting. (Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him. 1 John 3:15)
A message to the righteous amongst us — use your anger and pain to reach the lost, to serve the helpless, to comfort the hurting. Brothers waste so much time focusing on how everyone else is wrong, justifying themselves in the name of their doctrinal & scriptural prowess. Revolting.
There is enough work to be done fighting the good fight — spreading the GOOD NEWS.
Be careful what & who you are fighting: (http://biblehub.com/galatians/5-15.htm)
“What I find disgusting is the glee and venom with which haters love to gloat at the downfall of others.” Who here has done this?!? False accusations seem to fly when wolves are exposed. Sexual sin is a huge problem within protestant churches, and the reason is the same as in the RCC – unregenerate leaders.
“However I see brothers hating each other, simply because their doctrine disagrees.” Again, where is this displayed on this thread? IF you do not hate false doctrine, you need to examine yourself. Shallow Christianity permeates this nation, everyone is a ‘Christian’ because they say they are. Yet, they have no desire for truth, or to defend truth. Instead, they attack and falsely accuse all who expose wolves, calling them ‘unloving, judgmental, pharisees’. These are the standard responses when one cannot back their accusation with God’s word.
The true elect of God will make NO apologies for standing firm on His truth, regardless of what the lukewarm crowd says.
” i can’t fathom why you would attack them for what ever they were teaching at some remote place of the world years back – at least not in this context. imaging your kid would do something like this. it’s God’s job to judge, not ours. you sound an awful lot like modern day pharisee.” So, you do not take issue with false teaching? Christ warned about false teachers, and you claim warning today is ‘modern day pharisee’? You defend what God hates and despises – false teachings that lead sinners away from the Christ of the bible. Warren and his followers push ecumenism, which will lead to the one world church in the end time.
You accuse others of judging, are you not doing the same thing with your accusations?
Biblical support should be provided when one seeks to correct.
Warren is a false teacher, a wolf in sheep’s clothing. I recall in his inaugural prayers during Obama’s administration, he prayed to ‘Isa’. Do you know who ‘Isa’ is?
‘There are two main sources for ‘Isa, the Muslim Jesus. The Qur’an gives a history of his life, whilst the Hadith collections — recollections of Muhammad’s words and deeds — establish his place in the Muslim understanding of the future.
The Qur’an
‘Isa, was a prophet of Islam
Jesus’ true name, according to the Qur’an, was ‘Isa. His message was pure Islam, surrender to Allah. (Âl ‘Imran 3:84) Like all the Muslim prophets before him, and like Muhammad after him, ‘Isa was a lawgiver, and Christians should submit to his law. (Âl ‘Imran 3:50; Al-Ma’idah 5:48) ‘Isa’s original disciples were also true Muslims, for they said ‘We believe. Bear witness that we have surrendered. We are Muslims.’ (Al-Ma’idah 5:111)
They also teach that Jesus was a prophet, the son of Mary, but NOT the son of God. They claim ‘Allah has no son!’. Yet, Warren prays to this non-existent ‘jesus’?!?
Those who have been born from above by God will NOT defend what God hates, false teachers.
To John Walton: I appreciate the conciliatory spirit in your response. However, Jesus did say “If any one of you causes one of these little ones to stumble (those who believe in me) it would be better for them to have a large millstone tied around his neck and to be drowned into the depths of the sea.” Mathew 18:6. Those are strong words. Yes, there but for the grace go I. But this is a HUGE offense and sin. You cannot downplay this in any way. Its really bad.
@john mcintyre
it is bad. it’s sad. it’s a sin. period.
same is true for christians and churches going at each other in a situation like that.
@sola scriptura
you realize that ecumenical is a core characteristic of the early church as there was just one and as you can read in acts and in paul’s letters three were differences in interpretations of jesus’ teaching.
also, your comments about sbc suggest you’ve never been there. i have friends who came to christ there because they were confronted – in love.
jesus was and is known for what he stands for, not or what he opposes. i wish i could say the same about us…
Ecumenism today is not what it was in the early church! Ecumenism then was between the original seven churches, which some were failures such as Laodicea, which Jesus rebukes in Revelation, which is what today’s Churchianity emulates. Rick Warren’s ecumenism is holding his hand out to Rome. Which is not a denomination, but a different Jesus and a different Gospels, corrupt to the core and antichristian.
Jesus Christ is very well known for what He opposes! If He weren’t known for that He wouldn’t be hated as much as He is! John 15:18
Ecumenism today is between the Harlot church and the world. Not the bride of Christ.
As for article, to harm a child one of God’s little ones is a heinous sin………it is alarming, perplexing and quite depressing. There are red flags with Saddleback, from theology on down, I would advice anyone there to leave as quickly as possible.
i don’t know if i’m more disheartened by the incident or the discourse about it above. we’re turning into modern day pharisees preaching at each other without realizing it. where’s the love of jesus that makes us stand apart?
How loving was Christ concerning sin? Did He overlook and embrace the self righteous Pharisees? Or did He pronounce woes on them and call them hypocrites and white washed tombs? Did He tell the woman at the well it was okay to be a harlot, and He loved her anyway? No, He did not.
Here’s the problem, your ‘jesus’ is all one-sided, he’s all love love love. You do not know the God that is thrice holy, filled with wrath and will avenge His righteousness and holy name. The ‘jesus’ most adhere to looks nothing like the Christ of the bible, your ‘jesus’ looks more like you and is palatable to you because you’ve formed him out of your own thoughts. You take a verse or two from God’s word and build your own ‘god’, then you use your ‘god’ as a club to attack the true elect of the sovereign, holy, mighty, merciful God of Scripture. Then you have the audacity to come here and unleash your rants against God’s people!
You need to cry out, as the tax collector did, for God’s mercy. You need to remember that no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again, or born from above, by the supernatural work of God the Spirit. Lastly, you need to refrain from falsely accusing the brethren and misconstruing what is being said/exposed. Discernment is a gift from God, may He grant it to you, along with the new birth.
@lyn @Sola @Manny1962
Tricked into being against… *
Jesus didn’t spend His time trying to convince the pharisees he was right and they are wrong. Why are you? He didn’t focus His ministry on correcting the inaccuracies of their doctrine. He didn’t waste His time & energy fighting them being against them.
No. He spent His time focused on the lost, those without hope. And He only spoke to the pharisees when they came looking for Him. He confronted them when they tried trap Him or justify themselves. Read: (Luke 6:1-10)
Please please, I beg you — remember the words of Gamaliel:- (Acts 5:34-39).
“Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”
Stop. Be defined by what you stand for, NOT what you stand against.
The enemy is using this very thread to divide and conquer. (luke 11:17)
Some of you are unwittingly allowing yourself to be groomed by the him. You may say “Not me, never!” Well Satan encourages us to be against … well, anything really. Negative focus, negative energy. Satan trick is to be anti … anyone really. And all justified in the name of — self — righteousness. Because you’re not like them. Your sins are not like theirs. (luke 18:11)
Dudes! — wake up — it’s pride and you’ve been duped.
Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. (colossians 3:13)
Agree to disagree. Hand your concern to God. He is big enough to defend Himself. Let God be the judge and every man a liar.
Then Paul must’ve been the most prideful apostle ever, he even called out another apostle and called him a hypocrite, where was his brotherly love then? Paul sttod up for what was right! He rebuked Peter most sharply! Because Peter was embracing false teachings!
You call me prideful, please state where I have been prideful? Show me and I will correct it. You David, would have Paul recant and apologize to Peter!
I invite you to go back and read all my posts, show me where I “trashed” the accused, the family, or anyone! I call out Saddleback the institution and the leaders, corrupt! Rick Warren and Chrislam, Rick Warren and his flip flop on homosexuality, Rick Warren and Rome!
My friend I think you should be more clear on your judgements! We judge those that call themselves followers of Christ, we don’t judge the outside world! As steel sharpens steel, we are to examine each other, correct and rebuke each other, anything less and we are not showing the love of Jesus Christ. The road to hell is paved with good I tentions, love, acceptance and a “don’t judge” attitude.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work
Your logic negates 2 Timothy 3:16-17, if we don’t judge each other, rebuke each other, instruct each other, we become compromised, worldly and useless.
I would like someone in this thread to mention the habit in the New Testament, especially of the Apostle Paul of calling out false teachers by name. In 1 Tim. 2:10 he mentions Alexander and Hymenaeus. Alexander pops up again with Philetus in 2 Tim. 2:17-18. Demas is mentioned in 2 Tim. 4:10 as someone who has left the faith. In 3 John vs. 9 Diotrephes is mentioned. In Revelation a woman named Jezebel is named in 2:20 ( although this could be metaphorical.) John calls out a whole group, The Nicolaitians, in 2:6. In Gal. 2:12 Paul mentions “certain men who came from James.” Of course Ananias and Saphira, Simon the Sorcerer, and Elymas ( also known as Bar Jesus) are all mentioned in the Book of Acts. Would these scriptures not seem to make it valid to name people who are false teachers?
Paul always preached the truth, he was never compromised, he called it as it was without hand holding or coddling! When it came to defending the word of God, Paul was a force to be reckoned with! Even to this day he is hated, he is called a misogynist by radical feminists in Churchianity, because he dared to say men are exclusive to lead a congregation, they don’t like that! Paul was a no nonsense evangelist and was not beyond getting “rough” with others…..
Acts 15:38-40
38But Paul thought it best not to take him, because he had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not accompanied them in the work. 39Their disagreement was so sharp that they parted company. Barnabas took Mark and sailed for Cyprus, 40but Paul chose Silas and left, commended by the brothers to the grace of the Lord
He also stood up to the high priest:
Acts 23:1-23:3
1Paul looked directly at the Sanhedrin and said, “Brothers, I have conducted myself before God in all good conscience to this day.” 2At this, the high priest Ananias ordered those standing near Paul to strike him on the mouth. 3Then Paul said to him, “God will strike you, you whitewashed wall! You sit here to judge me according to the Law, yet you yourself violate the law by commanding that I be struck
Paul today would be called judgemental, insensitive, misogynist, politically incorrect, unloving, unaccepting, homophobic by what calls itself “the church.”
Truly a man of God! With a zeal and passion for the word of God! Rightly commending the Bereans for their diligence, something sorely lacking today.
John we are not being pharasaic, the love of Jesus compels us to warn others of those preaching a false gospel! We cannot compromise truth on the altar of “love.” Roman Catholicism is a different gospel and a different Jesus! Something that Rick Warren, the founder of Saddleback has accepted and put his arms around! What sets Christians apart from the world is an undying love of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit! As they are revealed in the word of God! The complete counsel of God. Given the times we live in and such a great apostasy round about it would be unloving and un-Christlike if we were to stop warning about the dangers in Churchianity.
“we cannot compromise truth on the altar of “love.” hmmm, sounds an awful lot like the mindset of the scholars in the new testament who jesus took apart because the followed the letter but not the spirit of the law. you may not have 613 of those but you still put a set of rules at the center of your faith, draw a circle around it and call everybody outside an apostate instead of putting jesus at the center.
so back to the origin of this post: what happened here is wrong, tragic and despicable. but the reaction to it (accusing the family, attacking brothers and sisters from another church) is disturbing mean spirited and unloving. the way we christians treat each other in situations like this is shameful and saddening.
“what happened here is wrong, tragic and despicable. but the reaction to it (accusing the family, attacking brothers and sisters from another church)” – who attacked the family? Who attacked anyone from another church?
While your accusations fly and you unbridle your tongue {in this case, fingers} your unwarranted accusations fly based on your worldly anger. You are fired up because why? Because a false teacher has been exposed, because a member of a family has taught falsely….and you defend that? Strange
The visible church is riddled with goats who paint a god of their own understanding, based on what they want their god to be. In most cases, their god is all lovey dovey, we dare not speak out about the vileness of sinners, or the command to repent of vileness and cry out for mercy to save. The basic essential doctrines of the bible are ignored because they are ‘too unloving’, ‘too judgmental’. The goats attack the sheep and go off on tirades because their man made fleshly ‘god’ is so loving, and the elect are ‘so judgmental’!
Let us never apologize to goats for exposing wolves.
“sounds an awful lot like the mindset of the scholars in the new testament who jesus took apart because the followed the letter but not the spirit of the law.”
It is sad you can’t see the difference between a Pharisee and a Berean, John. Obviously the perpatrator’s family is not to be held in contempt because of what a family member did, everyone is responsible for their own actions. Saddleback the institution, the leaders, and it’s theology is compromised and corrupt, irrespective of the crime committed.
doesn’t matter to me what name you choose for yourself. if you call a church and it’s leaders who are clearly used by God “compromised and corrupt” you disqualify yourself. jesus didn’t promote dogma but relationship with his father and others. the new testament (you’re a scripture guy) clearly states it’s not your theology God is interested in but your heart. i’m not the judge but the statements you make aren’t good indicators.
[it’s not your theology God is interested in but your heart.]
john, understanding doctrine is the only way we can know for sure that we’re saved and that our hearts are inclined to the God of the Bible and not some imaginary god. Yes, God wants your heart, but it is through the Scriptures, by the power of the Holy Spirit, that He changes your heart and mind.
“if you call a church and it’s leaders who are clearly used by God “compromised and corrupt” you disqualify yourself. jesus didn’t promote dogma but relationship with his father and others. the new testament (you’re a scripture guy) clearly states it’s not your theology God is interested in but your heart.” Now, where does Christ say doctrine does not matter? Where does God say we are never to seek His wisdom? Quite the contrary, we are to ‘grow in the knowledge and grace’ of our Lord – 2 Peter 3:18, or this, from 2 Peter 1:8 ‘For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ’. How does one’s knowledge of Christ increase if one does NOT study the scriptures?!? This is the new age false teaching – doctrine is not important right? Keep ’em dumbed down and stupid, that way they will be easily deceived. Well, this is a lie from the pit of hell.
May God have mercy and grant you spiritual ears to hear and eyes to see….
http://apprising.org/2012/02/28/john-piper-on-rick-warrens-chrislam/
“The following is an excerpt from the document, and clearly shows the Christian writers suggested that Christians and Muslims believe, serve, and love the same God:
What is common between us lies not in something marginal nor in something merely important to each. It lies, rather, in something absolutely central to both: love of God and love of neighbor. Surprisingly for many Christians, your letter considers the dual command of love to be the foundational principle not just of the Christian faith, but of Islam as well. That so much common ground exists – common ground in some of the fundamentals of faith – gives hope that undeniable differences and even the very real external pressures that bear down upon us can not overshadow the common ground upon which we stand together. That this common ground consists in love of God and of neighbor gives hope that deep cooperation between us can be a hallmark of the relations between our two communities…
…Abandoning all “hatred and strife,” we must engage in interfaith dialogue as those who seek each other’s good, for the one God unceasingly seeks our good. Indeed, together with you we believe that we need to move beyond “a polite ecumenical dialogue between selected religious leaders” and work diligently together to reshape relations between our communities and our nations so that they genuinely reflect our common love for God and for one another…
…We are persuaded that our next step should be for our leaders at every level to meet together and begin the earnest work of determining how God would have us fulfill the requirement that we love God and one another. It is with humility and hope that we receive your generous letter, and we commit ourselves to labor together in heart, soul, mind and strength for the objectives you so appropriately propose.”
Is this the love of Christ? Instead of evangelizing the lost, we must stay silent regarding the Gospels, we must accept their false god and their demonic religious system in order to be loving? Is this what Jesus wants? Unity and Apostasy at the cost of separation and truth? Acceptance and fellowship at the cost of saving souls and separation from the world? Where’s the love in that? Again the same lies floating around and the blind lead the blind. Rick Warren is transparent, he is false, he is a wolf, he does not preach God, Jesus nor The Holy Spirit! The Apostasy has gotten so great the marginal cannot see it!
““I think that everybody that loves or knows Christ, whether they are conscious of it or not, they are members of the body of Christ. . . . They may not know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts that they need something they do not have, and they turn to the only light they have, and I think that they are saved and going to be with us in heaven.”– Rev. Billy Graham
And that is the philosophy espoused by most “evangelicals” today! Including Rick Warren and his supporters.
Mr. Walton,
You are so quick to defend a man and his system, a man who by his own words hates the Lord Jesus Christ. How many years ago was it that he tried to force down the throat of the Church that “Chrislam” was a viable and legitimate off-shoot of Christianity and that all believer should welcome with open (and loving) arms the muslims, for after all, we all worship the same god, don’t we? The nasty fact is that muslims deny Christ, His Deity, His death and resurrection for the sins of the elect, and so on. Redacted from the mind and vocabulary of people such as yourself is the fact that you can lay no claim to loving God the Father and by-pass the Lord Jesus Christ (read with understanding John 8:42 if you are able). Because this false prophet speaks of “love” (a love that is no where to be found in the Scriptures) and speaks fluent Christianese, you naturally and ignorantly assume that he must be speaking for God. Not so! An honest and more careful investigation of Warren’s words will readily expose him for the fraud that he is. Blind allegiance to this charlatan is wide spread, as your own words attest. Today is a good day to repent of this evil.
Rick Warren has put his arm on the shoulder of Rome and on the shoulder of the NAR, he is duplicitous and as false as they come, he is instrumental in bridging Churchianity and Babylon together.
i’ve been warned people on this blog are only receptive to views confirming their own.
sorry brothers and sisters. it’s obvious i can’t get through to your heart. i pray jesus will and leave you and your tirades to his mercy.
john out.
Sorry John, Rick Warren and Saddleback have been proven false, you don’t want to admit it. I’ll pray Jesus opens your eyes to see the delusion and the Apostasy that is Emergence.
“Confronting the False Teachers
The somber tone of these verses reflects the gravity of the situation that Titus faced in the Cretan churches. Paul focuses on the utter uselessness of the false teaching and the depravity of the heretics. Yet a note of hope, however muted, is sounded.
Paul’s instruction in verse 9 is to refuse to enter into the false teachers’ dialogue (see 1 Tim 4:7; 6:20). Apparently, the arcane nature of their doctrine, which, as genealogies and quarrels about the law suggest, built upon a novel use of the Old Testament (see on 1:14; 1 Tim 1:4 notes; 1 Tim 6:20), led to a great deal of bitter controversy. In fact, throughout the Pastoral Epistles it is controversy (see notes at 1 Tim 1:4) and strife (NIV arguments) that most typify the opponents and their false doctrine (1:10-12; 1 Tim 1:4-7; 6:3-5; 2 Tim 2:23). The final evaluation of the false message and its results as unprofitable and useless stands as the exact antithesis of genuine Christianity (profitable for everyone, v. 8).
Paul’s way of dialoguing with the false teachers and those they have attracted is on an individual basis. But rather than talk theology with the divisive person, Titus is to warn (or “admonish”) that person “once and twice.” As in 1 Timothy 5:19-20 and 2 Timothy 2:25, the purpose of this confrontation is to induce the erring brother or sister to repent, and the admonition is understood to be positive instruction given within the context of a caring relationship. Verse 10 may be the apostle’s abbreviated reference to the disciplinary procedure that Christ taught the apostles (Mt 18:15-17; Lk 17:3). If so, then Paul means that an individual confrontation, if fruitless, is to be followed up with a visit to the erring party by two or more believers (see Deut 19:15). If the second attempt also fails, then the recalcitrant one is to be avoided–that is, treated as an outsider to the faith. Although the idea of excommunication is expressed more clearly in Matthew 18:17, have nothing to do with him must mean the same thing in view of the tone of finality of the description in verse 11. Something (presumably acceptance of the false doctrine) has turned the unresponsive one away from God (compare 1 Tim 6:4-5; 4:2). In this “turned” condition, the continuation of sin (the NIV sinful is better translated “he keeps on sinning”) shows the rejection of the warning. Finally to refuse to heed the apostolic warning is tantamount to pronouncing sentence on oneself (compare Lk 19:22; Gal 2:11).
There is a warning in this instruction (especially in combination with 1 Tim 4:2; 6:4-5; Deut 32:20) for all who will hear. False doctrine, like the practice of idolatry, will turn one’s heart away from God; it may not be possible to detect precisely the point at which the turn becomes permanent, but that this point can in fact be reached is indicated by the descriptions in the verses cited above.
There is also a question to be asked. On the basis of this and other related passages (Mt 18:15-17; 1 Cor 5:9-13; 1 Tim 1:20; 5:19-21), is not church discipline a matter to be taken seriously? The unfortunate reality of sin in the church (see 2 Tim 2:19-21) would seem to call for an affirmative answer. Experiences of excessive and unfair judgments have left their mark on the church. So has the spirit of toleration, which, though positive in many respects, often leads to indifference when practiced uncritically. The fact of the matter is that both the Christian community and the individual must be protected from sin. And the procedure taught in the New Testament is designed for this purpose. Properly executed, it allows the leadership to encourage purity of doctrine and behavior as erring individuals and groups are given every reasonable opportunity to acknowledge their error and turn from it. The process is meant to be a positive one of reclamation, and the church must keep this in mind. Yet it also provides for the judgment of separation to be administered (though still with hopes of reclamation) in cases of stubborn refusal to turn from sin. Paul’s letters to the Corinthians show something of the difficulty and stress connected with church discipline; they also reveal how desperately it is needed. Things are no different today.”
https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Titus/Confronting-False-Teachers
As for Rick Warren and the RCC, this was written in Roman news site a couple of years back:
“When the World Meeting of Families announced its roster of speakers for its September meeting in Philadelphia, some were surprised to see Rick Warren’s name among the invitees.
Warren is one of the leading Christian evangelical voices in the United States, and the World Meeting of Families, which is sponsored by the Holy See’s Pontifical Council for the Family, is the world’s largest Catholic gathering of families.
Warren will join Cardinal Sean O’Malley in offering a shared keynote address titled “The Joy of the Gospel of Life.”
Of course, this isn’t Warren’s first turn on a Vatican-sponsored stage. Back in November, he was invited to address the “Biblical Meaning of Marriage” at the Vatican’s Complementarity of Man and Woman: An International Colloquium. (A photo of Francis and Warren shaking hands at the conference is still circulating on the Internet.)
When Warren defended the “one man, one woman” definition of marriage at the conference, Irish Independent columnist David Quinn tweeted, “Probably the first time ever the synod hall resembled a revivalist meeting!”
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Austen Ivereigh also commented on Warren’s reception inside the Vatican, tweeting, “Standing ovation for @RickWarren. Quite a preacher.”
Warren wasn’t the sole evangelical from the United States speaking at the conference. He was joined by Russell Moore, president of the Southern Baptist Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission.
And sitting among the participants of the conference was Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council, a group whose anti-LGBT rhetoric is so false that the Southern Poverty Law Center has labeled it a “hate group.” To the Vatican’s credit, Perkins wasn’t asked to speak, but he was invited to observe. (That didn’t stop the National Review from getting Perkins’ take on the event.)
This isn’t Pope Francis’ first encounter with conservative evangelical Christians. Back in March 2013, I reported on Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio’s popularity among Argentine evangelicals.
The day after his election, a headline at Christianity Today, a conservative Christian magazine, declared, “Argentine Evangelicals Say Bergoglio as Pope Francis is ‘Answer to our Prayers.’ ”
The article wrote, “Relations between evangelicals and Catholics are much better in Argentina than in other Latin American nations. … Bergoglio has played a central role in Argentina’s CRECES (Renewal Communion of Catholics and Evangelicals in the Holy Spirit) movement over the past 10 years.” It also recounted Bergoglio’s deep support for the Argentine Bible Society.
A second Christianity Today article posted the day after Francis’ election offered an interview with Luis Palau, a leading evangelical preacher who immigrated to the United States from Argentina 50 years ago.
Palau detailed his longstanding friendship with Bergoglio, saying, “With the evangelical community, it was a very big day when we realized that he really was open, that he has great respect for Bible-believing Christians, and that he basically sides with them.”
Nearly two and a half years into his pontificate, Francis continues embrace evangelicals, particularly those from the United States. In March 2014, he welcomed the Green family, the “Oklahoma billionaires whose company, Hobby Lobby, took their challenge to Obama’s contraception mandate to the Supreme Court last week.”
And in June 2014, he even met with televangelist Joel Osteen.
According to Religion News Service, Osteen “was part of a larger gathering coordinated by the International Foundation, also known as ‘the Fellowship.’ Osteen was joined by Utah Sen. Mike Lee, a Mormon; California pastor Tim Timmons; and Gayle D. Beebe, president of evangelical Westmont College.”
Francis continued to welcome U.S.-based evangelicals later that month. On June 24, 2014, in a meeting that RNS said “leaned particularly toward charismatic Christianity,” the pope met with “Anthony Palmer, a bishop and international ecumenical officer with the independent Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches; Geoff Tunnicliffe, the outgoing head of the Worldwide Evangelical Alliance; and John and Carol Arnott of Catch the Fire Toronto, which grew out of a Pentecostal revival 20 years ago.”
If you think these meetings took place during large audiences, think again. The RNS story includes a photo of Pope Francis giving a high-five to Texas televangelist James Robison as they share a meal, while fellow Texas televangelist Kenneth Copeland was photographed praying over the pope.
While it is true that evangelicals and Catholics share a fundamental belief that Jesus is the son of God, their theological ties do not run deep and their traditions differ starkly. They are, of course, currently united in a common mission, which they would call “the protection of the family” or “the defense of traditional marriage.”
If there is a set of convictions that Pope Francis and U.S. evangelicals share fervently, it could be summed up like this: Marriage is between one man and one woman, children must have a mother and a father, and strict gender roles are part of the divine plan for humanity.
A quick glance at the list of workshops at the World Meeting of Families makes it clear that these ideas will dominate the conference. (Sessions on “traditional” marriage, complementarity, religious freedom, and mandatory celibacy for gays and lesbians are abundant.)
Given the Vatican’s many friendships with wealthy evangelical powerbrokers and given the urgency of their shared cause, it’s a wonder Rick Warren was the only evangelical asked to address the meeting.”
https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/grace-margins/pope-francis-deep-ties-evangelicals
Not just Warren, but Osteen, Palau , Robinson and more……..
From above, telling what the Vatican thinks of:
“And sitting among the participants of the conference was Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council, a group whose anti-LGBT rhetoric is so false that the Southern Poverty Law Center has labeled it a “hate group.” To the Vatican’s credit, Perkins wasn’t asked to speak, but he was invited to observe. (That didn’t stop the National Review from getting Perkins’ take on the event.)”