A Calvary Chapel pastor who warned of false teachings and apostate movements seeping into the Calvary Chapel organization has been removed from his regional leadership position, and is now removing his local congregation out of the Calvary Chapel Association altogether.
Pastor Dwight Douville of Calvary Chapel Appleton Wisconsin was informed last month that he was being removed from his position as a regional leader, a position he’s held for many years. Why? He says because personal friendships have been put above doctrinal truth, muddying the waters of what Calvary Chapels are all about.
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And because he advocated for maintaining and staying the course while calling out wolves and yeast seeping into Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa and the organization as a whole since the death of founder Chuck Smith.
Says Douville:
“Back in March, I sent out the first of 2 letters regarding ongoing concerns about the direction of Calvary Chapels since the passing of Pastor Chuck. In both the primary letter and follow up, many of us had hoped that the CCA Council would follow up and see what could be done to address these concerns.
Instead, I was told that the real reason for my recent removal from leadership in Wisconsin following the release of my March letters isn’t related to how I asked pertinent questions about the direction of CCs, it’s that I asked at all and actually sent it out. This is not the first time a pastor who dared ask questions has been sanctioned either.”
While not an official denomination, Calvary Chapel churches operate autonomously and share a commitment to the doctrinal distinctives outlined by Smith. But in recent years many CCA leaders are no longer holding to those distinctives.
The Calvary Chapel Association is seemingly (though not officially) under the leadership influence of Smith’s son-in-law Brian Brodersen, who inherited the pulpit at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa with his marriage to Chuck Smith’s daughter, Cheryl. Since Smith’s death, many changes have occurred at CCCM as the “new Calvary” replaces the “old Calvary” under new leadership (Brodersen even changing Calvary’s dove logo). Case in point, Brodersen’s first media interview with Christianity Today titled, “A Case for Big Changes at Calvary Chapel.”
Douville says the ongoing problems have been of concern to many Calvary pastors, church members, and former members who he says are, “grieved by the lack of care on the part of CC leadership in protecting the sheep from wolves that have walked right through the front door of Calvary Chapel, which has always been known for its distinctive doctrinal views that are now being compromised for the sake of unity.”
These eyebrow-raising concerns have not gone unnoticed by news outlets and other Christian groups. In particular:
- Greg Laurie’s endorsements of the Azusa anniversary and teaming up with NAR’s Lou Engle Catholic mystic Roma Downey, Introducing Contemplative Advocates Gungor and David Crowder, and leading a Joint worship with a Catholic Priest.
- Laurie’s endorsement of Calvary Chapel pastor Steve Berger’s book “Have Heart” containing false teaching about necromancy which the bible prohibits;
- Phil Metzger’s bridge to and endorsement of seeker guru Bill Hybels and other similar Druckerite churches by default;
- Calvary Chapels aligning with the Acts 29 Church Planting ministry with Matt Chandler and Mark Driscoll.
- Brian Brodersen’s endorsement of the Anglican/Catholic Alpha Course
and his cooperation with Anglican priest Nicky Gumbel for the sake of his annual “Creationfest”;
- Brodersen’s statement on Pastors Perspective of 9/11/14 (43:05 mark) where he states “Catholicism IS Christianity” in response to a caller’s questions:
- Brodersen’s recent quoting of New Ager Eugene Petersen, and Affirmed Yes to the question, “Can I Attend My LGBT Friend’s Wedding?”
- Willow Creek’s Bill Hybels teaching at Calvary Chapel Golgota, Budapest
- Women in the pulpit. (Calvary Chapel and Women in the Pulpit)
- Rick Warren’s invitation to CC founder Chuck Smith’s funeral, and Warren’s and Mark Driscoll’s videotaped memorials that were broadcast.
Of Warren’s appearance at Chuck Smith’s memorial, Douville says the pastors and members were stunned and asked questions. “The answer we got was that Rick Warren simply walked up on stage uninvited and turned the spotlight on himself to everyone’s surprise, but we’ve learned that just isn’t true. Those who asked about this were told he just appeared on the stage, with a chair already set up for him (or someone) and we are asked collectively to believe that,” Douville says. Later, he learned that it was Brian Brodersen who invited Rick Warren and Mark Driscoll, ignoring pleas from others in leadership not to invite them.
Douville isn’t the only Calvary Chapel pastor who has weighed the cost of staying in an organization that has shifted from its original mission into unbiblical waters. Many CC pastors have come the same conclusion, saying they feel they can no longer in good conscience be under the same doctrinal and fellowship umbrella as the current leadership of Calvary Chapels.
As for Douville, sound doctrine was the deciding factor. He made the announcement to his flock and to Calvary Chapel pastors:
The board of Calvary Chapel of Appleton has unanimously decided that we are no longer under the authority of, or a part of CC Association in any way, shape, or form. We will continue to call ourselves Calvary Chapel of Appleton and remain committed to the Calvary Distinctives as outlined by Pastor Chuck. As a fellowship we are taking an irrevocable stand and are in the process of determining what the next step will be as we continue to pursue truth.
© Berean Research, 2016
God bless you pastor Douville. That you would hold to the word of truth rather than the praise of men. It is a shame that those in leadership since pastor Smith’s death have done such damage to God’s work at the Calvary Chapel fellowships.
The first church I attended was one that Greg Laurie pastored. There were only about 150 of us then. The Greg Laurie in this article is not the same one that ministered in those days. I pray that God will continue to draw him and the others back to the truth.
Keep digging Ed
A video from Greg Laurie interviewing Chuck Smith with Greg stating they have been friends and surfing buddy’s for over 40 years
Plus Rick Warren got his Purpose driven church structure from Chuck Smith!!
Plus Chuck Smiths Connections with Jacob Prasch (Moriel) Hebrew Roots Teaching and connection with Jack Hibbs
The name list go’s on and on.
Ben,
You are mistaken on two things. 1. Rick Warren got his church building model from Peter Drucker, Robert Schuller. Bill Hybels and Warren implemented this at Saddleback and WillowCreek. Chuck explicitly rejected this model and it’s implementation over the Word of God. 2. Jacob Prasch is not Hebrew Roots, and I believe attends a small Baptist Church (could be mistaken on that), but in the least has actually publicly distanced himself from the majority of the Hebrew Roots movement as he says they try to force people to live under two covenants. Mr. Prasch simply wishes to teach others about the importance of Israel in the last days, battling replacement theology, and wishes to help exposition scripture in light of the Jewish understanding of scripture since the Bible is a book for all men written by Jews about a Jewish Messiah.
Well said, Jerod. I did not see your comment before posting mine.
Thank you Jared Hatch and Maggie for your comments. That is my recollection of Chuck as well. A lovely gracious man who loved the Lord. Not perfect doctrinally. But, still for the most part in line with scripture. And definitely a Christian brother.
Blessings:-}
“Not perfect doctrinally. But, still for the most part in line with scripture…”
Who decides if someone is “perfect doctrinally” and/or “in line with scripture”?
Let me guess, you do and anyone who disagrees with you is not “in line with scripture”…
Here is a question for you
If 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they agree that your beliefs/doctrines are not “in line with scripture” and that you and anyone who agrees with you is not truly saved who is correct? You or them and how do you know?
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
By grace, through faith, in Christ, + works for salvation= death.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast. = eternal life
Eph 5:5
For of this YOU CAN BE SURE: No immoral, IMPURE or greedy person (that is, an idolater), has ANY INHERITANCE IN THE KINGDOM OF CHRIST AND OF GOD. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
James 2:24
You see that a man is made righteous by works and NOT by faith alone
Rom 2:13
It is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s eyes it is those who OBEY THE LAW who will be declared righteous.
Matt 7:21
Not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but ONLY the one who DOES THE WILL of my Father in heaven.
Rev 14:12
This calls for the perseverance of the saints, all those who KEEP GOD’S COMMANDMENTS and their faith in Jesus Christ.
You still have not answered the questions:
1. If 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they agree that you are wrong and are not truly a Christian and not truly saved who is right and who decides?
2. Which of God’s 10 Commandments is impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you?
You cannot answer the questions. Repent and OBEY the Gospel (Jesus teachings) the kingdom of God is at hand. I pray you Repent and stop teaching your father’s unbiblical disobedience salvation doctrine.
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
“…that is, an idolater” is the key. Anyone who worships an idol can not worship the true God.
For example, Mormons worship the serpent. This is seen in the fact that they believe that man can be made Gods. The worship of anything other than the true God, Jesus Christ, is idolatry. Maryolatry, Allah, Krishna….. are all forms of idol worship. And all disqualify a person from being able to worship the true God.
Mt.6:24- “No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.”
James 2:24- The context deals with Abraham who was made righteous many years prior to the events James describes. So this is saying the fact that he was righteous was confirmed by his works.
Rom 2:13- The law is fulfilled in love for God and love for one another. That is why it has been abolished. Eph.2:15- “Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even THE LAW OF COMMANDMENTS contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;”
Matt 7:21- This is a rejection of salvation by works + faith. Vs.22- “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? AND IN THY NAME DONE MANY WONDERFUL WORKS?”
These thought their works had something to do with their salvation. They found out they were wrong when Jesus said in vs.23 “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY.”
Even though they thought they were doing these things IN JESUS’ NAME, because they trusted in works they never knew Jesus.
Rev 14:12- This is speaking of those believers who will be here during the tribulation period. They are subject to the “time of Jacob’s trouble”. It is a time that God will finish His dealings with Israel as a nation. The final week of Daniel’s 70 weeks in Dan.9.
But, Christians who are alive today will not be there. We will have gone in the rapture. The New Testament is unconditional. Israel’s covenant with God is not.
Believers can disagree on scriptural issues and still be saved, if those issues are not things like who God is or whether works + faith equal salvation, etc… because the scripture is crystal clear on them.
When the rapture happens, who the AC is, etc… are not. Christians consider these to be in-house debates.
The reason you believe as you do is you have never been born again. Therefore your eyes are still blinded to the truth. You have believed a lie and are in the camp of those Jesus addressed in Mathew7:21-23.
But, you do not have to remain there. Jesus loves you and died so you could be free from the law given to Moses, the law of sin and death. Rom.8:1,2
The sad thing is you place yourself under the law even though you are not Jewish. Jesus dies to free Israel from the law (Rom.7:6) and people like you come along and put yourself under it. The definition of insanity.
Thank you for sharing your personal/falible interpretations of the Bible.
You do admit that you are falible or do you claim that your interpretations of the Bible are perfect and free from any/all error (infalible)?
If you admit that you are not infallible then you must admit that you could be absolutely wrong on one or all of your explanations.
Funny how you (a fallible, imperfect sinner) feel comfortable declaring what are and are not “salvation issues” as if you are infallible.
Your personal, imperfect interpretations of the Bible do not change the fact that there are tens of thousands of “Bible based” Protestant Christians who are “spirit led” who completely disagree with your personal Interpretations of the Bible and believe that YOU (and everyone who agrees with you) are not truly Christian, are not truly spirit led and are not truly saved.
You still have not answered the questions.
1. When 2 or more Christians gather in Jesus name and after reading the Bible agree that you are incorrect, not truly Christian and not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
2. Which one of God’s 10 Commandments is impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you?
You cannot answer the questions. Notice I did not say “will not answer” because there is a difference.
You falsely portray yourself as someone who “will not answer” but in reality you are someone who “cannot answer”. If you could you would. Your man made doctrines have
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
P.S.
The original Greek word used in Matt 7:23 (which you translated as “iniquity”) is Anomia which correctly translated means “lawlessness”
Anomia is the combination of 2 Greek words, the words are NOT and LAW.
458 anomía (from 1 /A “not” and 3551 /nómos, “law”) – properly, without law;
lawlessness; the utter disregard for God’s law (His written and living Word).
458 /anomía (“lawlessness”)
So the correct wording of verse 23 is “you workers of lawlessness” but like most Protestants you deceptively use words that omit and/or conceal the word “law” in your “interpretations”.
In verse 23 Jesus says ergazomenoi anemia. “workers of lawlessness”
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
The key word that describes what they thought saved them is WORKS. Not iniquity.
Amen. Works alone cannot save anyone.
You consistently attack an argument that I am not making. It’s not faith alone (James 2:24) and it’s not works alone. It’s BOTH obedience + faith.
God’s people (aka the saints) Have BOTH (Rev 14:12)
You still have not answered the questions.
1. If 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they agree that you are incorrect, not truly Christian and not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
2. Which of God’s Commandments is impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you?
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Don’t “amen” something I did not write or imply. When works are added for salvation it makes faith void. Rom4:14- “For if they which are of the law be heirs, FAITH IS MADE VOID, and the promise made of none effect:”
“When works are added for salvation it makes faith void”
Amen!
Again, it’s not either/or its both/and.
It’s not EITHER Rom 2:13 OR Rom 4:14
It’s BOTH Rom 2:13 AND Roman 4:14.
One verse does not cancel out the other, we must accept BOTH verses. We must consider the WHOLE counsel of God so that we read,
For if they which are of the law be heirs, FAITH IS MADE VOID, and the promise made of none effect. For it is not those who simply hear the law who are righteous in God’s eyes it is those who OBEY THE LAW who WILL BE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS.
It’s BOTH. Both verses are true. You cannot use verses to nullify other verses. I accept BOTH verses.
It’s not faith alone (James 2:24) and it’s not works alone. It’s BOTH fairh + obedience.
God’s people (aka the saints) have BOTH obedience and faith. (Rev 14:12)
This is clearly supported by other verses in Scripture i.e. (Heb 5:9), (Heb 10:26), (1 Cor 6:9), (1 John 3:24), (Matt 7:21-23) and the historical witness of the writings of the early church Fathers who learned directly from John the Apostle who Jesus loved (such as Ignatius and Irenaeus)
You still have not answered the questions.
1. If 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they agree that you are incorrect, not truly Christian and not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
2. Which of God’s Commandments is impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you?
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Jesus said,” Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
This says,” do not waste what is holy on people who are unholy. But pray for them and ask for wisdom. Snoopie this is directed toward you. The thing you say over and over, and if you really mean it, this will get you to hell. You better examine yourself and see whether you are in the faith. And I’m not judging, but the thing you say tell me that.
Jesus says there no one good, and no one can keep the commandments. You say that you can keep the commandments, than you don’t need Jesus. He didn’t die for you.
James 2:18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works ; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
James here is saying prove your faith by your works. You do good works as a result of your faith in Christ. You want to obey Him.
“Jesus says there no one good, and no one can keep the commandments”
You do not know the Bible.
Luke 1:6
Both of them were RIGHTEOUS in the eyes of God KEEPING ALL of the Lords commandments and decrees BLAMELESSLY.
Matt 1:19
And Joseph her husband, being a RIGHTEOUS man…
Gen 6:9
…Noah was a RIGHTEOUS man, BLAMELESS among the people of his time, and HE WALKED FAITHFULLY WITH GOD.
2 Sam 22:24
I am BLAMELESS before God; I have KEPT MYSELF FROM SIN
2 Sam 22:25
The LORD has rewarded me ACCORDING TO MY RIGHTEOUSNESS according to my cleanness in his sight.
Job 1:1
In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was BLAMELESS and RIGHTEOUS; he feared God and shunned evil.
Job 1:8
Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is BLAMELESS and UPRIGHT, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”
Rom 2:5-7
But because of your stubborn and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. He will render to each one ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS: to those who by patience in DOING GOOD seek for glory and honor and immortality, HE WILL GIVE ETERNAL LIFE.
2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
You also declare me unsaved and only Jesus can do that. You have recreated God in YOUR own image and believe that you can speak for God. You cannot.
Repent and OBEY Jesus teachings in the Gospels, the kingdom of God is at hand.
You still have not answered the questions.
1. If 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they agree that you are incorrect, not truly Christian and not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
2. Which of God’s Commandments is impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you?
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
You can give me all kinds of verses out of the Bible, but if it is not used on context, they are useless. As a true Christian I truly believe, that God inspired men to write the Bible, it is His word. Therefore I believe that you will not find a verse that will contradict another verse and if you do find one ( like you pointed out many), it is your human mind that is in error. I will admit that I do not understand everything, far from it.
There are verses that seem to contradict another verse, it does not mean that the Bible is in error. But what it means is for us to study more and question what does the writer mean in what he says.
I rather believe that we are in error, and not the Bible. God is the author, He is perfect and errorless. What you are doing is showing, according to you, the mistakes He is making. I like to give you a few examples.
James 2:18 But someone may well say,” You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
What James is saying here is,” True faith and works are inseparable . True faith produces works and works is the evidence that you have that true faith. Show me the reality of that faith. The only way to do that is by good works.
We don’t get saved by doing good works, but we do good works to show that we are saved.
Eph. 2:8,9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast.
I like to add since you mentioned 2 Cor. 5:10 and Romans 2:5-7
God judges man on the basis of his righteous deeds.
We will not be saved by works, but we will be judged by our works.
Marinus L,
I would like to add something to your very good statement about works and faith.
The judgment of the believer’s works does not concern salvation. He is being judged as to whether he will receive the rewards for the works God course for him was set for him to do. If he did not he will not receive the reward, but he will still be saved.
1Cor.3:14,15- “If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire.”
His loss is the reward that he was to receive for the works. Not his salvation.
Blessings:-} sis
“The judgment of the believer’s works does not concern salvation”
That is absolutely false. You are either intentionally lying or you simply don’t know the scriptures.
Paul begins his letter to the Christians in Rome by saying,
Rome 1:8
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your FAITH is being reported all over the world
Paul goes on to warn these people of faith (believers)
Rom 2:5-7
But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in THE DAY OF WRATH and revelation of THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENT OF GOD, WHO WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS: to those who by perseverance in DOING GOOD seek glory and honor and immortality, HE WILL GIVE ETERNAL LIFE…
Paul opens his letter to the Christians in Ephesus by saying,
Ephesians 1:1
“To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:”
Paul goes on to warn the faithful (believers),
Eph 5:5
For of this YOU CAN BE SURE: No immoral, impure or greedy person–such a person is an idolater–HAS ANY INHERITANCE IN THE KINGDOM OF CHRIST AND OF GOD.
Every single one of Paul’s letters in the Bible was written to BELIEVERS who he converted and ALL of his warnings are written to BELIEVERS. Not a single letter in the Bible was written to non-believers, this is explicitly clear in all of the introductions.
You REALLY need to study the Bible more.
P.S.
You completely disagree with Marinus about the true nature of God (whether or not God created man with with a free will) and yet you praise Marinus simply because he disagrees with a Catholic. Your hypocrisy shines a light on your bigotry.
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Snoop1e,
The passage in question was 1Cor.3:12-15-
“Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; (To build upon this foundation one must be a Christian)
Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day (judgment) shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, HE SHALL RECEIVE A REWARD.”
(The next verse makes it clear that this judgment has NOTHING to do with salvation.)
Vs15- “If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire.”
The fact that he is still saved after suffering loss shows the losss is referring to the reward for good works. The plain reading of the text reveals that the judgment for the believer that happens after physical death has ZERO to do with salvation. I can show it to you, but I can’t understand it for you.
The Christian Is judged when he comes to faith in Christ and found to be righteous. So this judgment has passed for the Christian and will never be visited again.
ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED.
Rom.4:3,6- “For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness…….Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness WITHOUT WORKS.”
This is what Jesus has done through the NT.
2Cor.5:21- “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN HIM.”
“…..NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST.” Eph.2:9
Your clinging to OT righteousness that Paul considered “dung” and “loss” is going to land you in the lake of fire. Receive Christ’s righteousness that is able to save to the uttermost and you will enter the kingdom of God.
Heb.7:25- “Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.”
In some religions they teach through their ceremonies that He ever dieth to make intercession, which is in direct opposition to this scripture. That’s why some religions keep Jesus ON the cross.
But, the cross AND the tomb are EMPTY. He is seated at the right hand of the Father. Praise His mighty name forever!
Thank you for repeating your personal, fallible interpretation of the Bible. You still have not answered the questions.
1. If 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they agree that you are incorrect, that you are not truly Christian and that you are not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
2. Which of God’s Commandments is impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you?
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Snoop1e,
You said, “Paul begins his letter to the Christians in Rome by saying,” HUH?!
The letter to the Corinthians was a letter to them at Corinth, NOT ROME. The letter to the Romans was a letter to Rome. Two completely different cities and people.
Snoop1e,
You said “You REALLY need to study the Bible more.”
I need to study the Bible more?
You don’t even know the difference between the Romans and the Corinthians.
Guys you need to stop this?=?=?+.?= + it goes no where. In the beggining 2 bros CAIN versus ABEL. Do you think they would have thought their lives were both in jeprody 1 naturally 1 spiritually .I still lived 1 died ? Which 1 still speaks. Here is where WORKS / FAITH was sorted out by GOD himself . So in the end does GOD really needs our help ////WORKS .When he comes ?????WILL HE FIND FAITH is our modern day ? . It bhis blood that does the work the spirit IN THE FAITH / WAY /TRUTH / LIFE. SELAH was a word that DAVID used a lot in his teachings also. SHALOM. This is the last time i will be posting any thing on here. The scriptures state WE all must WORK OUT our own SALVATION with fear and trembling you need to remember that. It is the ANNOINTING that teaches you not a man.. For an exam Paul said many teachers but not many FATHERS in the church in his time it is even more so today.
@noel
If 2 Christians gather in Jesus name an after reading the Bible decide that you are wrong and they also agree that you are not truly saved who is right? You or them and who decides?
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
@edwitness
You need to go back and read my post again slowly. I was not referencing Paul’s letter to the church at Corinth (you were)
I was referencing Paul’s letters to the Christians in Rome and Ephesus.
Please slow down and take your time, you are not making any sense. Do you read the Bible the same way that you read my posts? It seems so…
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Agree. Thank you for the addition.
“We will not be saved by works, but we will be judged by our works.”
AMEN!!!
Rom 2:5-7
HE WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory and honor and immortality, HE WILL GIVE ETERNAL LIFE.
The Bible NEVER says that obeying God EARNS us salvation AND the Bible NEVER says that we are justified by faith alone (James 2:24)
It is a false/flawed presumption that says since God COMMANDS obedience – then obedience is the cause of our salvation. Nowhere does the Bible draw this conclusion.
Just because God commands us to obey Him does not mean that obeying God EARNS salvation. That is a faulty conclusion based on imperfect human reason.
You have been taught that you can “love” God AND disobey God simultaneously, this is not Biblical. You have also been taught that God’s commandments are burdensome (impossible to obey), this also is not Biblical.
1 John 5:3
IN FACT THIS IS LOVE FOR GOD, TO KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS
and HIS COMMANDMENTS ARE NOT BURDENSOME
You have been taught that you can know God WITHOUT keeping His commandments, this is not Biblical.
1 John 2:3
By this WE CAN BE SURE that we have come to KNOW Him: IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS
1 John 2:4
If anyone says, “I know Him,” BUT DOES NOT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS HE IS A LIAR AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM.
1 John 2:5
But if anyone KEEPS HIS COMMANDMENTS, the LOVE OF GOD has been TRULY perfected in him. BY THIS WE KNOW THAT WE ARE IN HIM:
1 John 3:6
… IN HIM THERE IS NO SIN.NO ONE WHO IS IN HIM SINS; NO ONE WHO CONTINUES TO SIN HAS SEEN HIM OR KNOWS HIM.
1 John 3:7
Little children, make sure no one deceives you; THE ONE WHO DOES WHAT IS RIGHT IS RIGHTEOUS, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
1 John 3:9
NO ONE WHO IS BORN OF GOD CONTINUES TO SIN, because His seed abides IN him; and HE CANNOT SIN BECAUSE HE IS BORN OF GOD
1 John 3:10
This is how we KNOW who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: ANYONE WHO DOES NOT DO WHAT IS RIGHT IS NOT GOD’S CHILD.
1 John 3:21-22
… whatever we ask we receive from him, BECAUSE WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS AND DO WHAT PLEASES HIM
You have been taught that you can simultaneously love your neighbor while disobeying God, this is not Biblical.
1 John 5:2
By this WE KNOW that we love the children of God, when we love God and OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS.
1 John 5:18
We KNOW that ANYONE BORN OF GOD DOES NOT KEEP ON SINNING
Jesus tells us,
John 14:15
IF YOU LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS
John 15:10
IF YOU KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS YOU WILL REMAIN IN MY LOVE, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and remain in His love.
I have never said that the Bible contradicts itself and I have never said that we are saved by our works. Those are your ideas not mine. I simply pointed out that the Bible says God’s children obey His commandments.
You still have not answered the questions,
1. If 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they agree that you are incorrect, that you are not truly Christian and that you are not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
2. Which of God’s Commandments is impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you?
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
No you never did say outright that we are saved by works. But, you continue to use this little saying by our Lord to the rich young ruler from Matt. 19:17,” If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” You know that you are using this phrase out of context. If you believe that phrase, then you believe that we are saved by works.
Point #2. You never said outright that the Bible contradicts itself, but you make it sound like it does. If you agree with Eph. 2:8,9 and then say you have to obey the commandments to get saved, you created a contradiction in the Bible. In reality you are the one that created these contradictions, it is not the Bible, God is the author and He is perfect.
All these verses you posted in this comment, have nothing to do to gain salvation.
According to 1John 2:1 John is talking to the already saved people. It is the works you do because you saved, not the works you do to get saved. This is exactly what James is trying to explain, and it seems like you have a hard time to understand.
Will pray for you.
“According to 1 John 2:1 John is talking to the already saved people”
Nowhere in the passage does John ever say he is “talking to already saved people” those are your words.
Actually in 1 John 2:1 John begins with “my dear children”. No where in the passage does John ever say he is talking to “already saved people”.
Even if John were speaking to “already saved people” you would still have a major problem because John tells them,
1 John 2:3
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
And
1 John 2:4
Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him
And
1 John 3:6
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
And
1 John 3:7-8
Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning.
And
1 John 3:9
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil…
And
1 John 3:21
Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
And
1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
And
1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments
And
1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death
And
1 John 5:18
We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning…
And
Repent and obey the Gospel, the kingdom of God is at hand.
You still have not answered the questions,
1. If 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they agree that you are incorrect, that you are not truly Christian and that you are not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
2. Which of God’s Commandments is impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you?
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
This is the problem with you, you read only partial verses, and you read verses out of context. Read the whole verse 1 John 2:1. …….but if anyone does sin, WE have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father.
My question to you ,” does an unbeliever have an advocate who can plead their case to the Father.” I have to say no. So John is talking to believers.
First you say that John is talking to “people who are already saved”,
then when I point out to you that no where does the passage say “people who are already saved” you change your position and now you say that John is speaking to “believers”.
So you make my point, precisely. Yes John is speaking to believers and he tells them that Belief/faith that does not love (obey) God is false faith/belief.
The Epistle of James points this out as well saying “faith without works is dead” (James 2:14-24)
John tells them,
1 John 2:3
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
And
1 John 2:4
Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him
And
1 John 3:6
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
And
1 John 3:7-8
Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning.
And
1 John 3:9
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil…
And
1 John 3:21
Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
And
1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
And
1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments
And
1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death
And
1 John 5:18
We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning…
And
Repent and obey the Gospel, the kingdom of God is at hand.
You still have not answered the questions,
1. If 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they agree that you are incorrect, that you are not truly Christian and that you are not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
2. Which of God’s Commandments is impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you?
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
My question was ,” does an unbeliever have an advocate that can plead to the Father,” I said NO, so he is talking to believers, already saved people.
No where does John EVER say
“already saved people”
Those are your words, you are adding words to the passage. You are imposing your beliefs on the passage and mentally inserting words that are not there.
John is tells believers,
1 John 2:3
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
And
1 John 2:4
Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him
And
1 John 3:6
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
And
1 John 3:7-8
Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning.
And
1 John 3:9
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil…
And
1 John 3:21
Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
And
1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
And
1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments
And
1 John 5:16
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death
And
1 John 5:18
We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning…
And
Repent and obey the Gospel, the kingdom of God is at hand.
You still have not answered the questions,
1. If 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they agree that you are incorrect, that you are not truly Christian and that you are not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
2. Which of God’s Commandments is impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you?
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
“Are already saved people,” the same as “believers”
Lets get serious, I think you’re playing around. You can’t be that dumb.
“You can’t be that dumb”
Thank you for proving my point.
1 Peter 4:14
If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.
Matthew 5:11
Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.
Matt 5:22
…whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
Luke 6:22
Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil because of the Son of Man.
James 1:12
Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love Him.
No need for sarcasm and insults, we both believe in Jesus. You are putting your pride above your love for the Body of Christ.
You still have not answered the questions,
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
I’m sorry, according to the thing you say, I come to the conclusion that you are not my brother in Christ. Your father is the devil, he uses you as a tool to cause disruption among His people. And this is my final comment with you, there is nothing edifying coming out of you. It is obvious the devil is at work, and I want no part of it.
Keep you in my prayers.
Peace in Christian brother
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
“No need for sarcasm and insults, we both believe in Jesus. You are putting your pride above your love for the Body of Christ.”
Nope Snoop1e, that’s where you are wrong. Faith + works for salvation is not Christian doctrine. Anyone who believes it does not know Jesus and is therefore not a part of the body of Christ. Paul made this very clear in Rom.7:1-4. This is what makes this so important and is why we have been trying so hard to help you understand.
You are as steeped in iniquity as those Jesus said that to in Mt.7:15-27;
“15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
(The tree is the heart and the fruit are the words that come from your heart and out of your mouth. Mt12:32-37. The fruit there is also words from false teachers.)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
And before you start braying about the word “doeth” in vs’s 24 and 26, remember Jesus is referencing words here not works. This chapter is about false teaching.
And the answer Jesus gave to those who He said He did not know had to do with works not words. That’s why He did not know them. They trusted in works + faith.
You are not Christian if you believe faith + works = salvation. This is why the reformers rejected the doctrines of works + faith for salvation. And is also why true Christians reject it still.
Are your explanations above fallible or infallible?
You still haven’t answered the questions,
1. Which of God’s commandments are impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you?
2. If 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they disagree with you and believe that your belief in salvation by faith alone is not biblical and you are not truly saved who is correct? You or them? And who decides?
God Bless,
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Snoop1e,
The passages I gave you are Bible. It is the inerrant word of God. You can go to hell if you want to but, you will never be able to say you weren’t warned.
Tell me, how does Rom.7:1-4 not make you and those who believe like you an adulteress?
As expected you do not answer the questions.
Like your father’s Martin Luther and John Calvin you are very comfortable telling people the meaning of the Bible but you do not liked to be questioned about your teachings.
How can I possibly come to the truth if you will not answer my simple questions? This is the reason I am no longer a Protestant.
Yes God’s Word is inerrant but your human interpretation of God’s word is fallible and subject to error. I simply ask you if your interpretations of the Bible are perfect and without error? Are they?
The reason I ask you this is because the Bible warns us (2 Peter 3:16) , (2 Peter 3:17) that Paul’s letters are “difficult to understand and ignorant and unstable people will twist his words to their own destruction teaching lawlessness. The Bible warns us not to carried away by these false teachers and fall from salvation.
You teach lawlessness (salvation apart from keeping God’s law) so how do I know that you are not one of the ignorant and unstable people twisting the scriptures to your own destruction? This is why I ask you questions, should I trust you or trust the written word of God?
The Bible also warns us (Jude 1:4) that ungodly people will worm their way into the church teaching that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives. The condemnation of such people was recorded long ago, for they have denied our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
You teach that we do not have to live moral lives because of God’s mercy/grace yes/no? So how do I know that you are not one of the ungodly people destined for condemnation that is spoken of in Jude 1:4?
The Bible says (Rev 14:12) that the saints (those destined for eternal life) keep the commandments and keep faith in Jesus but you say this is not true, you tell me the saints only keep faith in Christ. Whose words should I trust? Yours or God’s?
In the Bible (Matt 19:17) Jesus says, “if you want to enter life, keep the commandments” but you say “if you want to enter life you dont have to keep the commandments”. Who should I trust?
God tells me in the Bible (James 2:24) that a man is justified by what he does and NOT by faith alone but you tell me a man IS justified by faith alone. Who should I trust?
God tells me in the Bible (Eph 5:5) that > can be SURE that no immoral person has ANY inheritance in the kingdom of God but you tell me that immoral people most certainly do inherit eternal life they just get less “rewards” in heaven. Who should I trust?
This is why I ask you if your interpretations of the Bible (your teachings) are perfect and free from any/all error? Because I know for a fact that God’s words in the Bible are perfect and free from all error but you are telling me that God’s words actually mean the exact opposite of what they say.
So I ask you again,
1. Which of God’s commandments is impossible for you to keep with Christ IN you?
2. If 2 Christians gather together in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they come to the conclusion that your beliefs are not Biblical and you are a false teacher and not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
3. Are your interpretations of the Bible perfect and free from all error?
God Bless,
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Snooopie I asked you a question five days ago. Since you say that I misinterpret the Bible. You may be right, but I am anxious to learn more.
My question was,” what was it that the apostle Paul is saying in Eph. 2:8,9 I like you to explain it to me, you may be right, I may be missing something here.
Don’t give me a long winded answer, by given verses that have nothing to do with the question. There is no need to go to Strong’s concordance. It is all plain English even an uneducated person can understand. ( that is if he/she is under influence by the Holy Spirit.) I’m waiting.
Snoop1e,
Paul tells the church at Rome that if they have believed Christ they have been delivered from the law. Rom.7:6 “BUT NOW WE ARE DELIVERED FROM THE LAW, THAT BEING DEAD WHEREIN WE WERE HELD; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”
He also gave one of the laws so we would know what law he was talking about. The 10 commandments.
Rom.7:7
“What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET.”
He started the message by saying that anyone who remains under the law while saying they believed in Jesus was an adulteress. Rom.7:1-3
Vs.3- “So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, SHE SHALL BE CALLED AN ADULTERESS: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.”
After this Paul relates to them the only way to be in a relationship with Jesus. Vs4-
“Wherefore, my brethren, YE ALSO ARE BECOME DEAD TO THE LAW by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”
As long as the works of the law have anything to do with your relationship with Jesus you are an adulteress.
Case closed.
snooop1e
You are missing the point about what scripture says concerning justification to life and judgment concerning works. Unbelievers (the dead) will be judged according to their works (John 5:28-29, Rev 20:12-13). Believers have passed from death to life and will not come under judgment. This is what Jesus says in John 5:24-30—v24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Then He says in —v28-29 “the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.” Believers will not be in the grave when that hour comes.
Paul’s point in Romans is that God’s wrath is (present tense) revealed from heaven against all ungodliness; believer and unbeliever alike, Jew and Gentile alike, the moralist and immoralist alike. Romans 2:12-13 is not saying that we are justified by “faith plus works”. Paul is saying that to hear the Law is not enough to be justified but one must fulfill the Law in its entirety (Gal 5:3, Jas 2:10) to pass the final judgment awaiting those people who insist on being judged by works will be judged by works—one needs to keep the Law in its entirety.
It seems you want to pit Jesus against Paul and Paul against James and Paul against himself and by doing so you miss out on the different truths of scripture; let’s call them A (justification —having eternal life ) B (practical sanctification—possessing that eternal life towards kingdom inheritance) and C (judgment for those who do not have eternal life).
Receiving eternal life is always by grace through faith and works play not part or else it is not grace (John 3:15-18; 5:24, Rom 3:28; 4:2-6, Gal 2:16, Eph 2:8-9, Titus 3:5).
Possessing that eternal life is by walking according to the Spirit in obedience as Christ did (John 13-15, Rom 8, Eph 5-6. Gal 5-6).
Jesus is the “narrow gate” in regards to receiving everlasting life and possessing that life (John 10:9-10; 14:6, Rom 5:9-10, 2Cor 5:15, 2Peter 1:3, 1John 3:14-15). Just as the Children of Israel were given the Promise Land the blessing was for them to possess the land. They have been through conquest and exile but the Land is theirs forever and Jesus will reign on earth from Jerusalem when He returns to set up His kingdom and give inheritance to those who have eternal life and possessed that life by walking in obedience through the Holy Spirit and not by the energy of the flesh.
@rascott247
Thank you for sharing your personal interpretation of the Bible.
Why do Jesus words “keep the commandments” trouble you so much?
1. Which of God’s commandments are impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you?
2. If 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they agree that your interpretations above are incorrect and they agree that you are teaching false doctrines and are not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
P.S.
All of Paul’s letters were written to believers. See what Paul says to the believers in Ephesus below. Paul never says a word about “unbelievers”. You have been taught a false Gospel according to Paul.
Repent and obey the Gospel, the kingdom of God is at hand.
Eph 5:5
For OF THIS YOU CAN BE SURE: NO IMMORAL, IMPURE, or GREEDY person (that is, an idolater), HAS ANY INHERITANCE IN THE KINGDOM OF CHRIST AND OF GOD.
NOTE: The Immoral, The Impure and the Greedy do not have ANY INHERITANCE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
Paul goes on to say,
Eph 5:6
LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU WITH EMPTY WORDS for because of such things GOD’S WRATH COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT.”
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
snooop1e
Thinking that “keep my commandments” bothers me is your interpretation of what I wrote and cannot be rightly inferred without presupposition. What bothers me is that you assume that Jesus’ conversation with the “young ruler” and “keeping my commandments” concerns (A) truth —receiving everlasting life when it concerns (B) truth—possessing everlasting life (life more abundantly, maturity, John 10:10). The “young ruler” asked a (B) question and Jesus gave a (B) answer, but not before Jesus gauged where the “young ruler” was coming from by asking “Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, and that is God”. And this went right over the “young ruler’s” head just like it does yours. Sad!
What I wrote is found in the text. If you follow inductively you will see that it is not an interpretation but is what the text says.
John 5:24-28
V24-Those who hear Jesus and believe in Him who sent Him HAVE everlasting life and shall not come into judgment.
V25-The hour for the dead to hear and be given life is NOW.
V26-27-The Father has given authority to the Son to execute judgment.
V-28- An hour is coming (that presently is not) when those in the graves will hear and come forth for judgment according to their works.
Now who is being judged based on works? Not those who presently hear and believe but those who are called from the grave (in the future). You have conflated the judgment of works for believers in 1Cor 3 with the judgment of unbelievers by their works in John 5 and Rev 20.
Don’t stop your mantra at Matt 19:17 you need to add 19:21 also if you believe Jesus is speaking of how to be justified. But of course that ruins your interpretation while remaining true to the text.
@rascott247
Thank you for sharing your personal interpretions of the Bible. By what authority do you, an imperfect sinner presume to “explain” God’s perfect Word? Who told you that God needs YOU to “explain” His perfect word?
Is your interpretation of the Bible above perfect and free from any/all error (infallible)?
Paul tells the Believers in Ephesus,
Eph 5:5
For of this YOU CAN BE SURE: No immoral, impure or greedy person—SUCH A PERSON IS AN IDOLATOR—has ANY INHERITANCE in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
And
Eph 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things GOD’S WRATH COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT.
Paul tells the Believers in Rome,
Rom 2:5-7
God WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS to those who by perseverance in DOING GOOD seek glory and honor and immortality, HE WILL GIVE ETERNAL LIFE.
John tells Believers,
1 John 5:3
IN FACT THIS IS LOVE FOR GOD, TO KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS
and HIS COMMANDMENTS ARE NOT BURDENSOME.
And
1 John 2:4
If anyone says, “I know Him,” BUT DOES NOT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS HE IS A LIAR AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM.
Should I trust in God’s perfect Word in the Bible or should I trust in your personal, imperfect explanations of God’s perfect Word?
Surely you agree that God does not need you (a fallible sinner) to “explain” His perfect Word?
Can you answer the questions?
1. If 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they agree that you are incorrect, that you are not truly Christian and that you are not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
2. Which of God’s Commandments is impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you?
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
You quote John 5:24-28,
John 5:24-28
Those who hear Jesus and believe in Him who sent Him HAVE everlasting life and shall not come into judgment.”
But the passage goes on to say,
John 5:28-29
Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when ALL who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—THOSE WHO HAVE DONE WHAT IS GOOD WILL RISE TO LIFE, and THOSE WHO HAVE DONE WHAT IS EVIL WILL RISE TO BE CONDEMNED.
Which passage is correct?
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
snooop1e
So let me get this straight. You have been pontificating about the need to keep God’s commandments to receive everlasting life which would mean to do so an imperfect sinner would need to understand God’s commandments which are in God’s Word or else it means that to understand God’s commandments which are in God’s Word one must be a perfect non-sinner? Which are you? If you are the former how is it that you presume to explain God’s Word to the rest of us? If you are the latter…pleased to me you, you’re the first one I’ve met.
Tell me what sense does 2Tim 3:16-17 make if imperfect sinners are not meant to understand and explain God’s perfect Word? Or how about 2Tim 2:15, Matt 4:4, Eph 6:17, Psalm 119:105, Isa 34:16? God’s Word is meant to be understood.
It is clear that you disagree with the explanation I have given. You can copy and paste scripture after scripture that deals with (B) truth and it will not change the fact that we are saved (justified to life) by grace through faith and not by faith plus works. You continually pit scripture against scripture in hopes of justifying your desire to earn everlasting life.
On John 5 one more time: There is no contradiction in what Jesus is saying! Those who believe have everlasting life and will not face judgment! There is a judgment for those who don’t believe and this judgment is to see if their works are good enough to give life the way Christ does. Saying “those that have done what is good will rise to life” does not mean that there will be any found to do good! Their works will not be good enough to give life. The judgment is to show that none are good but One, and that is God. And God demonstrates His justice in this manner.
So are you looking forward to that judgment snooop1e ? You can show the court of Heaven how well you kept the commandments and hope it was good enough to earn life or you can put your trust in the work of Jesus Christ and pass from death to life and not come under this judgment!
“one must be a perfect non-sinner”
Now I see what is confusing you.
You believe that in the Bible the words
“Righteous”, “Blameless, “Upright”, “Perfect”, “Innocent”, “Godly”, “Just” and “Holy” mean “sinless” they
do NOT.
The Greek word for “sinless” is anamartétos (ἀναμάρτητος). Anamartetos only occurs one time in the Bible (John 8:7)
Below are the Greek words for righteous, perfect, blameless, innocent, just, upright, godly and holy.
Righteous – Dikaios
Perfect – Teleios
Blameless – Amemptos
Innocent – Akeraios
Just – Endikos
Upright – Orthos
Godly – Eusebés
Holy – Hosios
Scripture tells us that prior to Jesus sacrifice on the cross there were people who were perfect, righteous, blameless, godly, upright, innocent, just and holy. The Bible does not say these people were “anamartetos” (sinless)
Scripture tells us that the reason these people were perfect, righteous, blameless, upright, just, innocent, godly or holy is because they obeyed Gods commandments and walked in His ways (Mark 6:17), (Luke 1:6), (Luke 2:25)
– but we also know from scripture that
their “righteousness” (obedience) alone could not and did not deserve eternal life. Their good works did not EARN them salvation.
Scripture tells us that only by FOLLOWING Jesus Christ and DOING THE WILL OF THE FATHER (obeying God) can we inherit eternal life (Matt7:21), (Matt 19:17), (John 15:10), (1 John 2:3-4), (Rom 2:6-8), (Rom 2:13).
Not because our obedience “deserves” eternal life, because Jesus blood on the cross reconciles us with God and makes it possible for all who FOLLOW Jesus Christ (obey Gods commands) to become heirs of eternal life IN Jesus Christ.
So you see JESUS alone merits eternal life and ALL who are IN Christ become heirs (beneficiaries) of Jesus atonement.
Following Jesus Christ means living as Jesus lived
(1 John 2:6).
Many people today claim to “follow” Jesus while not keeping the 10 Commandments. It is not possible to simultaneously walk in darkness and also walk in the light. We cannot walk both in darkness and in Jesus. We are either doing one or the other. We cannot serve 2 Masters.
Rom 6:16
Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey–whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to OBEDIENCE WHICH LEADS TO RIGHTEOUSNESS.
John 8:34
Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.
Eph 5:5
For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure, or greedy person (that is, an idolater), has ANY INHERITANCE in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are DISOBEDIENT.
From the very beginning obedience to God has always been necessary for salvation (Deut 7:8-9), (Eccl 12:13-14), . Jesus did not abolish Gods commandments. Jesus fully human nature fulfilled (fully obeyed) all of Gods commandments (John 15:10). Jesus was in fact Anamartétos (sinless).
To elaborate on this point, Jesus Christ is God incarnate (God become man), Jesus Christ is BOTH fully HUMAN and fully GOD.
Jesus has BOTH a fully DIVINE nature and a fully HUMAN nature. Scripture tells us that Jesus felt sadness, fear, doubt, pain, thirst, lonliness and that Jesus wept (John 11:35). The Bible also tells us that Jesus was tempted in the desert (Matt 4:1-11)
Jesus fully human nature also prayed to the Father. Jesus Divine nature is fully God and does not pray. God is perfect and does not experience sadness, fear, doubt or temptation and God does not pray.
That being said when Jesus experienced human emotions in the Bible and prayed it was His fully HUMAN nature (not His Divine nature) that did so, it was His fully HUMAN nature that did not give in to temptation and sin not His Divine nature (God cannot be tempted and God cannot sin)
Jesus fully human nature experienced the same emotions (including temptation) that we do but He did not sin. Jesus fully human nature FULFILLED the law. Jesus is our model. So we can be “perfect” (not sinless) by obeying Gods commands just as Jesus fully human nature became “perfect” through suffering and obedience to God. (Hebrew 5:8-9)
Jesus tells us to be “perfect” not sinless (Matt 5:48)
MANY people mistakenly confuse the words righteousness, blameless, godly, upright, perfect, innocent, just and holy with being “sinless”.
The Bible tells us that without holiness no one will see God.
Heb 12:14
Pursue peace with all men, as well as holiness, without which no one will see the Lord. 1Be careful that no one falls short of the grace of God,
The “righteous”, “blameless”, “godly”, “upright”, “perfect”, “innocent”, “just” or “holy” are those who repent (turn away) from sin and obey Gods commandments. In accordance with the scriptures they do not “fall short of God’s grace”.
Psalm 11:7
For the Lord is righteous, He loves justice; the UPRIGHT will see His face
Psalm 18:20-25
The Lord has dealt with me according to my RIGHTEOUSNESS according to the cleanness of my hands He has rewarded me. For I have KEPT the ways of the Lord; I am NOT GUILTY of turning from my God. All His laws are before me; I HAVE NOT turned away from His decrees. I have been BLAMELESS before Him and have KEPT MYSELF FROM SIN.
There is a difference between NEVER having sinned (being sinless) and repenting and turning away from our sins and obeying Gods commands (being righteous, blameless, upright, godly, perfect, innocent, just or holy).
We know that every human being in the Bible who is “righteous” or “blameless” or “upright” or “godly” or “perfect” or “innocent” or “just” or “holy” has committed sins at some point in their lives.
The reason they are righteous, blameless, upright, godly, perfect, innocent, just or holy (according to scripture) is because they repented and turned from sin (darkness) and walked in the light – obedience to Gods commands.
Proverbs 10:2
Ill-gotten treasures have no lasting value, but RIGHTEOUSNESS delivers from death
Proverbs 10:16
The wages of the RIGHTEOUS is LIFE but the earnings of the wicked are sin and death.
Proverbs 10:29
The way of the LORD is a refuge for the BLAMELESS, but it is the ruin of those who do evil
Proverbs 15:9
The Lord DETESTS the way of the wicked, but He LOVES those who pursue RIGHTEOUSNESS
Proverbs 15:10
Stern discipline awaits anyone who LEAVES THE PATH; the one who hates correction WILL DIE
Proverbs 15:29
The Lord is FAR from the wicked, but He Hears the prayer of the RIGHTEOUS
Psalm 19:13
Keep your servant also from WILLFULL sins; may they not rule over me. Then I will be BLAMELESS, innocent of GREAT transgression.
Proverbs 21:15
When justice is done, it brings joy to the RIGHTEOUS but terror to evildoers
Isaiah 3:10-11
Tell the righteous it will be well with them, for they will enjoy the fruit of their deeds. Woe to the wicked! Disaster is upon them! They will be paid back for what their hands have done
Isaiah 57:2
Those who WALK UPRIGHTLY enter into peace; they find rest as they lie in death
Ezekiel 33:13
If I tell a righteous person that they will SURELY live, but then they TRUST in their righteousness and DO EVIL, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will DIE FOR THE EVIL THEY HAVE DONE.
Matt 10:41
…..”whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward”.
Luke 1:6
BOTH OF THEM WERE RIGHTEOUS IN THE SIGHT OF GOD, OBSERVING ALL THE LORD’S COMMANDS AND DECREES BLAMELESSLY.
Luke 2:25
Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was RIGHTEOUS and devout.
James 5:16
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a RIGHTEOUS person is powerful and effective.
We see above in (Psalm 19:13) there is such a thing as “great transgression” or sin that leads to death (1 John 5:16)
Because (many) Christians today have been taught that ALL sins are the same in Gods eyes they have trouble understanding the biblical definition of “righteous”, “blameless, “upright”, “perfect”, “innocent”, “just”, “godly” and “holy”
Psalm 37:18
Day by day the Lord takes care of the INNOCENT, and they will receive an inheritance that lasts forever.
This false teaching that ALL sins are equal is not biblical and is a stumbling block for many to understanding Gods free gift of salvation paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ.
Jesus Himself says that some sins are “greater” than others (John 19:11)
Jesus tells us to be “perfect” (Matt 5:48) not “sinless”
1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
Psalm 37:12
The wicked plot against the GODLY ; they snarl at them in defiance. But the Lord just laughs, for he sees their day of judgment coming.
Psalm 37:16-17
It is better to be GODLY and have little than to be evil and rich. For the strength of the wicked will be shattered, but the Lord takes care of the GODLY.
Psalm 10:3
The LORD does not let the RIGHTEOUS go hungry, but he thwarts the craving of the wicked
Psalm 50:22
Consider this, you who forget God, or I will tear you to pieces, with no one to rescue you: Those who sacrifice thank offerings honor me, and to the BLAMELESS I will show my salvation.”
Psalm 51:19
Then you will delight in the sacrifices of the RIGHTEOUS, In burnt offerings offered whole; then bulls will be offered on your altar
Romans 2:13
For it is not those who hear the law who are RIGHTEOUS in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared RIGHTEOUS.
1 John 3:7
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. THE ONE WHO DOES WHAT IS RIGHT IS RIGHTEOUS, just as he is RIGHTEOUS.
1 John 3:12
Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brothers were RIGHTEOUS.
2 Peter 2:4-10
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but CAST THEM INTO HELL and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;…the Lord knows how to rescue the GODLY from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority.
James 1:12
Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, HE WILL RECEIVE THE CROWN OF LIFE
Rev 14:12
This means that God’s holy people must endure persecution patiently, OBEYING HIS COMMANDMENTS and keeping their faith in Jesus.
Jesus is only the source of eternal salvation for those who OBEY Him.
Heb 5:9
and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation FOR ALL WHO OBEY HIM
The blood of Jesus only cleanses the sins of those who WALK IN THE LIGHT.
1 John 1:7
But IF we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
Key word “IF”. This is a conditional statement. IF WE WALK IN THE LIGHT then Jesus blood cleanses us from ALL sin. If we walk in darkness (sin and disobedience) then we are not “IN” Jesus Christ and His blood does not cleanse us.
So it is Jesus blood that CLEANSES US OF ALL SIN (not our works) but Jesus blood only cleanses those who “WALK IN THE LIGHT” (do not commit sin that is “unto death” or deadly sin.
So you might ask, what are the sins that are “unto death”?
The 10 Commandments list all of the sins that are “unto death” so that we can know how to be perfect, upright, righteous, blameless, innocent, just, godly and holy.
The Bible tells us that God’s law is “perfect” (James 1:25). The Bible also warns us (1 Cor 10:12)
1 Cor 10:12
So the one who thinks he is standing firm SHOULD BE CAREFUL NOT TO FALL.
2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be CARRIED AWAY BY THE ERROR OF THE LAWLESS and FALL FROM YOUR SECURE POSITION.
The Bible tells us,
1 Corp 10:13
No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And GOD IS FAITHFUL; HE WILL NOT LET YOU BE TEMPTED BEYOND WHAT YOU CAN BEAR. But WHEN YOU ARE TEMPTED HE WILL ALWAYS PROVIDE A WAY OUT SO THAT YOU CAN STAND UP TO IT.
So again I ask you, which one of God’s commandments is impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you and what temptation is more powerful than God’s faithfulness?
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Snooop1e
What I mean by pitting scripture against scripture (and you are not alone in doing so) is taking simple straight forward statements in scripture concerning receiving everlasting life and being justified by faith and mixing in passages of scripture that deal with how to live once everlasting life is received. You cannot take the word “saved” to always mean receiving everlasting life, there are things to be saved from once we are “saved” from the everlasting fire of Hell. I saved 15% on my car insurance; is that 15% going to Heaven? When we see the word save we need to ask save whom from what.
Paul, James John, in their letters to believers, are not telling them to work or keep commandments to receive everlasting life; the already have it. They are instructing believers how to grow to maturity, enjoy the blessing of having life, bear fruit towards inheritance, abide in Christ and be saved from the corruption of this present age.
James 2 is commonly pitted against Romans 4. First off James addresses his epistle to brothers begat in the word of truth (Jas 1:18) so his readers have everlasting life. But they needed to be saved from something that faith without works (dead faith) will not save them (Jas 2:14, 17). People want to say “see faith alone does not save” and they rush to Jas 2:24 to contradict Rom 4:2 but in Jas 2:24 “only’ modifies “justified by” it does not modify “faith”. It’s: Man is justified by works and man is by faith. It’s not: Man is justified by faith plus works and not faith alone. There are two justifications, one by faith before God and one by works before men. The salvation and justification James speaks of is not the same Paul speaks of in Romans 4. In keeping with the short hand terms I have been using Romans 4 concerns (A) truth and James 2 concerns (B) truth. The do not contradict.
If you are trying to be justified before God through your efforts to keep commandments and have never believed that everlasting life is a gift from God through Jesus Christ’s merits alone and not your merits plus His then you do not have everlasting life and you can moralize and “keep commandments” to the best of your ability but you will fall short in earning everlasting life. If you once believed in God’s promise of life through Christ and have turned to works and commandment keeping to further earn or keep justified in God’s sight then you have fallen from grace (Gal 5:4).
“If you are trying to be justified before God through your efforts to keep commandments”
James 2:24
You see that a man is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
Im sorry but according to scripture Justification (salvation) is not by “faith alone”. If you simply believe in God (so do the Demons) but serve sin (which leads to death)
Rev 14:12 says that the people of God “keep the commandments” and “keep faith in Jesus” it does not say the people of God are “saved by keeping the commandments”.
You keep stating salvation by works and then arguing against it. I have never said nor does the Bible ever say “salvation is by keeping the commandments” so I am not sure why you keep arguing this point?
Jesus atonement is the ONLY thing that MERITS eternal life, why do you think that (Matt 19:17) says keeping the commandments EARNS eternal life? It does not.
Just because Jesus commands us to obey God as a requirement to have eternal life does not mean that our obedience EARNS salvation. You are the one creating this idea and then arguing against it. Jesus never said “if you keep the commandments you will deserve eternal life” He simply said if you want to enter life keep the commandments.
Paul never said (Eph 5:5) the moral and pure deserve inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Jesus never said those who do the will of the Father have earned the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus never said if you eat my body and drink my blood you deserve to be raised up on the last day.
James never said (James 2:24) that those who are justified by what they do and not by faith alone deserve salvation.
We can never DO anything to DESERVE salvation but we can reject God’s free gift by living in darkness and serving sin which leads to death. It’s really not that complicated. It is a false dichotomy that says
“If God requires us to love Him then salvation is by works”.
Or
“If God requires us to not fornicate, worship false gods, lie, steal, murder, cheat and commit adultery then salvation is by works and Jesus death was a waste”
This thinking is the result of disordered human reason. God can do whatever God wants and giving us 10 Commandments in no way nullifies or lessens Jesus atonement. On the contrary God in His loving kindness has given us 10 ways to KNOW for sure that we are LOVING GOD and LOVING NEIGHBOR. All of the law and the Prophets HANGS on these 2 great commands which are detailed in the 10 Commandments.
The 10 Commandments are not burdensome (1 John 5:3) they are a perfect gift from a loving God intended to bring us freedom (James 1:25) freedom from doubt and confusion. We do not have to wonder how to please our God (1 John 3:22)
It is a darkened and sinful heart that tells God His perfect gift is a burden that is impossible to bear.
1 Cor 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
Phil 4:13
I can do ALL things through Christ who gives me strength.
All things INCLUDES keeping God’s 10 Commandments.
Keeping God’s 10 commandments can never earn salvation and arguing that straw man issue is merely a distraction from the real question.
So again I ask you,
Which of God’s commandments is impossible for you to keep with Christ IN you? When is God unfaithful?
Rev 14:12
Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
No snooop1e I am not confused about the Gospel or the terms used in the Bible. Good guess though, you do a lot of guessing about what you read. And I am not confused at what you say or where you stand, I understand your religion I just don’t think it is Biblical. The confusion lies is in your cut and paste exegeses and the circle of poor reasoning you use.
How does one proclaim the Gospel, teach God’s Word, exhort and rebuke others; maintain sound doctrine without understanding what the text says? And how does one come to understand what the text says without giving attention to reading with the detailed analysis that Paul instructed of Timothy? Your insistence on personal perfection from any student of God’s Word is absurd and a crutch to prop up your misunderstanding about the message of life.
You asked “Should I trust in God’s perfect Word in the Bible or should I trust in your personal, imperfect explanations of God’s perfect Word?” This is assuming that your explanation is not “personal” and therefore is less than imperfect. Either that or else you have no explanation of God’s Word. That’s the circle of faulty logic you are trapped in (and quite hypocritical –should I say Pharisaical) and it is where you continually steer the conversation.
I’m jumping off the merry-go-round snooop1e. Thanks for reminding me of what religious unbelief looks like. It’s clear that you lack understanding of the simplicity of the Gospel let alone having the desire to give the detailed attention to the text required to understand the meat of God’s Word. Of course this comes from an imperfect sinner who dares to explain the Gospel to you—and yes I am commanded to do so!
PS —Teaching that justification does not come from keeping the Law is Biblical it is in no way teaching lawlessness (logical fallacy). That was the argument of the Judaizers. Good luck at the Great White Throne if you insist on being judged by keeping commandments. If you are found to have done good Jesus says you will be resurrected to life. Praise God He has exempted me from that judgment because I have put my trust in Christ alone and not in my ability or desire to keep commandments. After all I am very flawed and am certain to fail in doing so perfectly. I know Who and how He gave me life. By the time of that judgment I will have already been resurrected to life for 1000 years—by no merit of my own, nothing I added.
“Your insistence on personal perfection from any student of God’s Word is absurd and a crutch to prop up your misunderstanding about the message of life.”
Jesus said (Matt 5:48) “Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect”. Jesus said (Matt 7:21) only those who “do the will of the Father” will enter the kingdom.
Your argument is not with me it is with Jesus, you just don’t realize it.
You spend most of your time and energy arguing against the keeping of God’s commandments and then proudly question my understanding and my relationship with God (my salvation)
Your rejection of God’s commandments has darkened your understanding and your pride has gotten the best of you.
Thank you for making my point so clearly. You argue incessantly that salvation is by “faith alone” (James 2:24) and not according to any doctrines or works (Rom 2:6), (Rom 2:7) UNTIL you encounter someone who disagrees with you and then you declare they are not truly saved. So much for John 3:16 and Rom 4:14 huh.
You are doubleminded, you preach salvation by “faith alone” but then you question the salvation of anyone who rejects YOUR doctrines. So what you truly believe in is salvation by faith plus YOUR doctrines. You decide the “true meaning” of the Bible and anyone who disagrees with you is anathema and probably not saved.
So tell me teacher of God’s Word, I believe that Jesus Christ is the King of kings and Lord of lords, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, born of the Virgin Mary and willingly suffered and died for my sins. I confess Jesus Christ is my LORD and Savior. I also utterly reject your unbiblical doctrines. Am I saved or not?
This creates another question,
If someone believes in Jesus but utterly rejects YOUR interpretation of the Bible and your doctrines are they not saved by “faith alone”?
Are we saved by believing in Jesus or by believing YOUR teachings/doctrines?
You cannot answer the questions,
1. Which of God’s commandments is impossible for you to keep with Christ IN you?
2. If 2 Christians gather together in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they come to the conclusion that your beliefs are not Biblical and that you are a false teacher and not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
3. Are your interpretations of the Bible perfect and free from all error?
4. If someone believes in Jesus Christ but declares your beliefs unbiblical and declares you are not truly saved are they still saved by “faith alone”?
God Bless,
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
So I ask you again,
1. Which of God’s commandments is impossible for you to keep with Christ IN you?
2. If 2 Christians gather together in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they come to the conclusion that your beliefs are not Biblical and you are a false teacher and not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
3. Are your interpretations of the Bible perfect and free from all error?
God Bless,
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
No again snooop1e, my argument is not with Jesus but is with the gospel you preach. The word “perfect” in Matt 5:48 is TELEIOS, which means to be complete or mature or full it does not mean flawless personal perfection as the Father in heaven is. You and I are not sinless and flawless. Jesus is talking about spiritual maturity, a quality in our spiritual life that is expected of believers by walking according to the Spirit and not the flesh but this in no way means personal perfection and has nothing to do with receiving eternal life but living the life that has been given.
You can keep going back to the “Sermon on the Mount” but Jesus is talking to believers who already have eternal life (except Judas if he was there) about spiritual maturity. The “Sermon on the Mount” was preached not long after the imprisonment of John the Baptist, which is noted in Matt 4:12. Before the arrest of John the Baptist, Jesus had already begun to evangelize as evident from the statements made in 3:24 and 4:1-4 meaning that His disciples ( the ones at the wedding) had already believed (John 2:11) in Him and that the discourse with Nicodemus and the conversation with the Samaritan woman took place before Jesus had preached the Sermon on the Mount. The disciples, Nicodemus nor the Samaritan woman were not told of the need to keep commandments in order to be born again (John 3:5-18) and receive the gift of eternal life (John 4:10-14). Again you mix apples and oranges.
You said “You spend most of your time and energy arguing against the keeping of God’s commandments” this is plain false. My argument is that keeping God’s (and I would say Christ’s) commandments will not result in receiving eternal life. The gift is received by grace through faith, which leads to your next statement —“I believe that Jesus Christ is the King of kings and Lord of lords, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, born of the Virgin Mary and willingly suffered and died for my sins. I confess Jesus Christ is my LORD and Savior. I also utterly reject your unbiblical doctrines. Am I saved or not? “—A: If you have never placed you trust in the FINISHED work of Christ alone and what He accomplished in your stead, and have forever been persuaded that eternal life depends on any kind of effort from yourself, then the content and object of you “faith” is not in Christ but is in works! If you at one time believed in the finished work of Christ for life without adding to it through keeping commandments and now believe different, I say what Paul says—you have fallen from grace.
Faith alone in Christ alone! The gospel you are preaching subtracts from faith by adding works—a little leaven leavens the whole lump. You keep harping about my “interpretation” yet you seemingly refuse to look at the text to see if these things be so. Justification by faith alone in Christ alone is not an interpretation it is scriptural and easy to see by simply reading the text in context without the religious baggage.
PS —Muslims believe in the virgin birth and they believe in works salvation. Demon’s believe Jesus is God and willingly died, but Jesus did not become an angel and die for angels, He did so for mankind not to help us be saved but to be Savior of those who believe in Him for the GIFT of eternal life.
“The word “perfect” in Matt 5:48 is TELEIOS, which means to be complete or mature…”
AMEN!!!
The same root word is used in 1John 2:3-6
1 John 2:3-6
And by this we know that we have come to know him, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. WHOEVER SAYS I KNOW HIM BUT DOES NOT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS IS A LIAR AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is truly PERFECTED. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him must walk in the same way in which he walked.
The Greek word used in verse 5 for “perfected” is telioo. Telioo is from the root word Telios.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Telioo
Word Origin from teleios
Definition
to bring to an end, to complete, perfect
Cognate: 5046 téleios (an adjective, derived from 5056 /télos, “consummated goal”) – mature (consummated) from going through the necessary stages to reach the end-goal, i.e. developed into a consummating completion [by fulfilling the necessary process (spiritual journey). See 5056 (telos).[This root (tel-) means “reaching the end aim”
“You and I are not sinless and flawless”
Amen!!!. That is why God became man and suffered and died for us. Why do you keep saying things that Jesus did not say and then attacking them as if Jesus said them? Makes no sense.
The Greek word for “sinless” is “anamartetos” not “teleios”. In Matt 5:48 Jesus did not say “be flawless and sinless” , those are YOUR words. Jesus said be perfect (Teleios)
When you put words in Jesus mouth you are bearing false witness and accusing Jesus of saying things He never said.
I notice you do this very consistently, you replace words in scripture with your own words – thereby changing the meaning of the passage and then you go about attacking the incorrect meaning of the passage that YOU just created. Jesus never said “be flawless and sinless” those are YOUR words.
For example you go on to say
“this in no way means personal perfection”
Again, Jesus did not say “personal perfection”, those are YOUR words. You make statements that Jesus that Jesus did not say and then you go about attacking YOUR own words. This is ludicrous.
“You can keep going back to the “Sermon on the Mount” but Jesus is talking to believers who already have eternal life”
Again, NO WHERE in the passage does Jesus EVER say “I am talking to believers who are already saved” Those are YOUR words and you are attributing them to Jesus. You are bearing false witness.
“You said “You spend most of your time and energy arguing against the keeping of God’s commandments” this is plain false”
You can lie to yourself but you cannot lie to God. Your entire argument (all of your posts) are about not keeping God’s commandments and trying to convince people that the Bible actually means the exact opposite of what it says i.e. (James 2:24), (Matt 19:17), (Matt 7:21), (Rom 2:5), (Rom 2:6), (Rom 2:7), (Rom 2:13), (Eph 5:5), (1 John 2:3), (1 John 5:3), (John 14:15), (John 14:21), (John 15:10), (2 John 1:6).
“My argument is that keeping God’s (and I would say Christ’s) commandments will not result in receiving eternal life.”
Yes I know, and you just contradicted yourself and validated my point. Once again you argue for NOT keeping God’s commandments.
Matt 19:17
If you want to enter life, keep the commandments
“The gift is received by grace through faith”
AMEN!!!
“If you have never placed you trust in the FINISHED work of Christ alone and what He accomplished in your stead, and have forever been persuaded that eternal life depends on any kind of effort from yourself, then the content and object of you “faith” is not in Christ but is in works!”
AMEN!!!
“If you at one time believed in the finished work of Christ for life without adding to it through keeping commandments and now believe different, I say what Paul says—you have fallen from grace.”
AMEN!!!
But you are doubleminded. In an earlier post you stated belief in the doctrine of “once saved always saved” but now you say that a person can “once believe in the finished work of Christ for life” (be saved) but then “fall from grace” which is it?
“The gospel you are preaching subtracts from faith by adding works”
The Gospel you are preaching says that works “subtracts from faith” but the Bible says that faith without works is dead. (James 2:17)
I don’t preach the Gospel I simply post Bible verses. The only reason we are talking is because you reject the plain meaning of the verses that I have posted i.e. Matt 19:17. All of your “explanations” are you trying to convince people that the words in the Bible mean the opposite of what they actually say.
“Justification by faith alone in Christ alone is not an interpretation it is scriptural”
Sounds great, where in the Bible does it say “Justification by faith alone in Christian alone”????
Answer, NO WHERE which is why you MUST give YOUR “interpretation” of verses that do not say that.
Isn’t it odd that YOU claim to go by “scripture alone” yet none of your words or “interpretations” are actually found ANYWHERE in the Bible? Not only are they not found anywhere in the Bible but they are explicitly refuted!
James 2:17
So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was perfected by his works
Again the Greek word used in verse 22 for “perfected” is is from the root word Teleios that YOU yourself have pointed out.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin from teleios
Definition
to bring to an end, to complete, perfect
James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone.
“PS —Muslims believe in the virgin birth and they believe in works salvation.”
Muslims DO NOT BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS GOD so your point is ridiculous and quite sad.
“He did so for mankind not to help us be saved but to be Savior of those who believe in Him”
Amen and according to scripture (1 John 2:3), (1 John 2:4), (1 John 2:5) anyone who claims to “believe” in Jesus but does not keep the commandments is a LIAR and the truth is not in him. Their faith is not Teleios, it is not a true faith, it is “ou teleioó” incomplete.
According to the scriptures (James 2:17) a faith/belief that does not have works is dead.
The Greek word used in verse 17 for “dead” is nekros
3498 nekrós (an adjective, derived from nekys, “a corpse, a dead body”) – dead; literally, “what lacks life”; dead; (figuratively) not able to respond to impulses, or perform functions (“unable, ineffective, dead, powerless,” L & N, 1, 74.28); unresponsive to life-giving influences (opportunities); inoperative to the things of God
Where in the Bible does Jesus teach that true life saving faith is dead, lifeless, powerless, unresponsive and inoperative to God?
I ask you again,
1. Which of God’s commandments is impossible for you to keep with Christ IN you?
2. If 2 Christians gather together in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they come to the conclusion that your beliefs are not Biblical, that you are a false teacher and that you are not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
3. Are your interpretations of the Bible perfect and free from all error?
God Bless,
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
No again (again) snooop1e. Circular reasoning will just leave you back where you started—which is comparing apples to oranges. Receiving everlasting life is by believing that Christ offers everlasting life through what He did on the Cross apart from our work. After receiving everlasting life the believer is to mature and produce fruit — live the life they have received. If they fail to mature and produce they will still not come into judgment and are eternally secure in Christ because faith is not the same as faithfulness.
Jas 2:26- “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” —Is James saying that a body without spirit ceases to be a body? No! So why do you have him saying that faith without works cease to be faith? He doesn’t. James is not telling his readers that they need to be saved from eternal punishment in hell.
1John 2:3-5 does not say “anyone who claims to “believe” in Jesus but does not keep the commandments is a LIAR and the truth is not in him! You changed “know” to “believe”. That’s an interpretation (I thought you didn’t do that) and a poor one at that because it doesn’t fit the context (fellowship 1Jn 1:3-7). “Know” (ginōskō—to learn to know) is not “believe” (pisteuō—to have faith, to think to be true, to be persuaded of). Jesus questioned Philip whether he knew Him (Jn14:9) after He pronounced all the disciples clean (except Judas-Jn 13:10-11). Would Jesus pronounce the unrighteous as clean? Knowing results in an intimate relationship so that faith can be perfected. Believing results in receiving everlasting life. Apples and oranges.
Rascott247,
“Jas 2:26- “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” —Is James saying that a body without spirit ceases to be a body? No! So why do you have him saying that faith without works cease to be faith? He doesn’t. James is not telling his readers that they need to be saved from eternal punishment in hell.”
I love that. I have always said that this doesn’t mean faith does not exist. And that it means that the faith one has is just not being seen. But, I love the way you put it.
Once saved, always saved!
Blessings:-} brother
Thanks Ed. The works salvation folk love to misrepresent James and 1 John. Keep fighting the good fight Ed much appreciated.
snooop1e says “I don’t preach the Gospel I simply post Bible verses.”
That’s what I am saying: His cut and paste gospel is not the message of life. Hey does Acts 10:42:43 mean that to preach the Gospel is a command? I guess he doesn’t keep that one! Oh but wait for that to be true the words “preach the Gospel” are probably required in snooop1e’s hermeneutical approach to God’s perfect word.
Folks salvation is by faith alone; it’s a gift not earned.
Rascott247,
Of that there is no doubt. Only idolaters say otherwise.
Blessings:-}
Jacob Jimmy Prasch attends both Assembly of God and Jewish Messianic congregations in England, as he himself has stated in one of his Youtube videos
Ben,
Regarding your purpose driven comment, Paul Smith (Chuck’s brother) has stated on video that when Peter Drucker was making his rounds to find interest from churches to develop his seeker friendly church model, Chuck Smith declined on behalf of Calvary Chapel. (This might be in the film Church of Tares).
What are you saying about Jacob Prasch? Prasch spoke out about the bad changes coming into Calvary Chapel.
Jacob Prasch is also a false teacher, as he does go into the direction of saying you need his “midrash” to understand the Bible. He also teaches a false gospel works for salvation in the form of “losing salvation”. Prasch also rails uncontrollably against anyone that even questions him. That is a cult of personality. Prasch is certainly a false teacher.
Amen Jess….and his attacks on the KJV are nothing less that slander, easily disprovable by anyone with even a minimal knowledge of the history of the Greek texts.
what is wrong with Jack Hibbs??
Isn’t it interesting about the changes that have occurred at Calvary Chapel since Pastor Chuck’s passing. Pastor’s Perspective now has Terrific Tuesday, Wonderful Wednesday and so on. I know that’s not what they’re called but you get the point. Why didn’t these changes occur when Chuck was alive? Now I read that Chuck’s daughter and Kaye are suing CC. What is going on? Apparently a lot of Pastor’s and others had their eyes on Chuck and not The Lord! There shouldn’t be a lot of changes because of one man’s passing. Maybe changes in leadership but not in Doctrine. I left CC after 30 years and my wife and I couldn’t be happier. There are Churches out there that teach the Word of God.
Hello Larry, may I ask where you attend now? We are searching,,
thanks
Interesting post. How do you know if a church is “teaching the Bible”? Let me guess, you know that a church is teaching the Bible because you agree with the teaching right?
If you disagree with the Pastors teaching then that church is not “teaching the Bible.”
The CC you attended for 30 years taught the Bible until you disagreed with the church at which time that church stopped teaching the Bible and you searched for a church that you agreed with and VOILA that church teaches the Bible.
You will remain in your current church until you disagree with something and then VOILA your church is no longer teaching the Bible and a new search begins all over again. This cycle will continue indefinitely.
The question is, how do you know that the church you left is wrong and you are right? How do you know with any certainty that a church is or is not “teaching the Bible”? At the end of the day (whether you realize it or not) you are your own Pope and anyone you disagree with is not “spirit led” and is not “teaching the Bible”
snooop1e,
Amen to that!! Because unlike you, we are like the Bereans who “in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
Acts17:11
We are not to believe it just because some man or group of men says it is so.
And yet there are over 40,000 different Protestant/Evangelical churches who believe that they are”spirit led” yet disagree with each other about what is and is not “essential” for salvation.
What happens when 2 Protestants gather in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they decide that using contraception is NOT acceptable to God but across town 2 other Protestants gather in Jesus name and after reading the Bible decide that contraception IS acceptable to God? Which 2 are correct and who decides?
Oh wait, that already happened in 1932 when Protestants decided that contraception is no longer a salvation issue. Prior to 1932 not a single Protestant faith allowed contraception or divorce, now many Protestant churches allow abortion and gay marriage.
This is the fruit of the false doctrines of sola scriptura and sola fide. Martin Luther’s doctrine of sola fide is powerless to sin and solar scriptura allows every individual to decide what is and/or is not “essential” for salvation.
How many Protestants today know that prior to 1932 not a single Protestant church allowed contraception? The same will hold true for gay marriage, gay clergy and abortion. Within 100 years nobody will even remember (or care) that these sins were not allowed in Protestantism.
Lord Have Mercy
“if you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
snooop1e,
In your write up you did not reference a single issue that is a salvation issue to Protestants. We consider them in-house debates.
Your “contraception” issue is a straw man. The only contraception before 1950 was abortion. And Protestants believe that abortion is murder. Always have. Always will.
However, we also believe that murder is forgivable. As is divorce for the truly repentant heart.
And there are others who have become much more liberal about homosexuality in their religion. For example;
May 20, 2015 – Pope Francis has appointed radically liberal, pro-homosexual Dominican Father Timothy Radcliffe as a consultor for the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace.
And there is also this.
Pope Francis has reiterated his relatively tolerant stance towards LGBT people, offering new details about a 2013 incident where he responded to a question about gay priests by saying “who am I to judge?”
This does not justify a pro homosexual stance in any church. It just makes it clear that there is apostasy happening everywhere. And that is something this website is bringing to light.
You didnt answer the question. Which 2 Protestants are right? Many “spirit led” Protestants disagree with you about what is or is not “essential”.
P.S. Your assertion that contra-ception did not exist in 1932 when the Episcopalian church approved of it is simply ludicrous, if it did not exist they could not have approved of it. The birth control pill was created around 1950 but contraception (the act of intentionally preventing conception) has existed in many forms since the Old Testament.
Answer the question, when 2 Protestants gather in Jesus name but disagree with 2 other Protestsnts who gather in Jesus name which 2 are correct and who decides?
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
snooop1e,
Name one Protestant that does.
“They are being called out for teachings that are harmful. But, that does not necassarily mean they are not saved.”
The verse says “and you will SAVE YOURSELF”. Your method of “explaining” the scriptures is always to deny it’s meaning, deconstruct it and then tell people what the Holy Spirit meant to say. By what authority do you tell the Holy Spirit what He meant to say?
“If we believe something that directly contradicts the clear teaching of scripture, but it does not change who Jesus is or how we are saved, salvation is not in jeopardy”
This is double minded. You condemn Catholics for believing things that contradict the clear teaching of scripture but then declare that YOU can believe things that contradict the clear meaning of scripture and still be saved.
“But, whether Jesus is God or if someone believes that works + grace is required for salvation, that person is not saved. These are certainly salvation issues.”
But you just said that a person can believe something that directly contradicts the clear teaching of scripture and still be saved. Now you are saying if they contradict your interpretation of scripture they are not saved. So now we get to the heart of the matter, salvation is based on agreeing with you. The way that you know if a person is saved is if they share your beliefs.
“What is the final authority for the Christian? The Bible.”
Again, how can the Bible be your final authority when you can believe something that directly contradicts the clear teaching of the Bible and still be saved?
You are a mass of confusion and contradiction.
Also who decides what the “clear meaning of scripture” is? If it is so clear why are there over 40,000 “Bible Based” churches who are separated because they disagree about what is and is not “essential” for salvation?
There are Protestants in this forum who attend Bible Based churches who completely reject your beliefs and are positive you are not “saved” This forum exists because Protestants who attend Bible based churches disagree with Chuck Smiths teaching. Some believe he was a “false teacher” and an “apostate”
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Can you name for me the 40,000 “different” churches? I mean those with differences that would equate to being saved or not. No. Because that is a lie. I have seen those stats and the person gathering them is wrong. They even say so if it’s those I have looked at.
Clear contradiction- “There is no rapture of the church.” = Still saved. Some Christians divide over this issue. Some like me don’t. Why? Because it is not an issue salvation is dependent upon.
Clear contradiction- “We are saved by works + faith.” = Not saved. Those who teach that works + faith save you have made faith void. Without faith we can not be saved. Because as you well know, Eph.2:8,9 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.”
And Titus3:4-6 “But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Which he shed on us (past tense) abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;”
Again you build a straw man based on a false dichotomy. The fact that we are not saved by faith alone does not mean we are saved by works alone. The Bible says the Saints (those who are saved) keep God’s commandments and keep faith in Jesus. Salvation is by obeying God and believing in Jesus Christ. Salvation is by BOTH faith and obedience.
Rev 14:12
This calls for the perseverance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus Christ.
Jesus is only the source of eternal life for those who OBEY Him (Heb 5:9)
It’s not EITHER/OR its BOTH/AND. It’s not EITHER faith OR works it’s BOTH faith AND works.
James 2:24
You see that a man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone.
Rev 14:12
This calls for the perseverance of the saints, THOSE WHO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD AND THEIR FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST.
Matt 7:21
Not everyone who calls me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven but ONLY THE ONE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER IN HEAVEN.
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
I’ll do even better. The Protestant churches below reject your theology and believe you are not truly saved.
Church of Christ
Seventh Day Adventist
Assemblies of God
Oneness Pentecostal
Sabbath Keepers.
This blog is proof that Protestants absolutely believe that fellow Protestants are “false teachers” , “apostate” and “not truly saved”.
You still have not answered the question. When 2 Protestants gather in Jesus name and agree that your doctrines are false and you are no truly saved who is correct and who decides? You cannot answer the question.
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
This is a stupid question. I don’t follow man’s doctrines, I only follow biblical doctrines.
By the way you like to end your comments by saying,” if thou wilt enter into life, keep my commandments.”
This was part of the conversation Jesus had with the young ruler in Matthew 19:16-26
You took a snippet of what Jesus said and presented it as fact. All the false teachers do that. Let me tell you, you are a tool of the devil, misleading people by using snippets out of the Bible, just like your father the devil did to Eve in the garden.
My suggestion to you is, stop what you are doing and repent and ask God to give you biblical wisdom. You yourself may have good intentions, but your mind is tainted by the false teachings of the Roman Catholic church. Leave that church, find yourself a solid Bible teaching church. Ask God to lead you to one. The way you are going,is not to heaven. ( I read most of the comments you made.)
Jesus says in John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh to the Father, but by Me. SOLO CHRISTO; ” CHRIST ALONE.”
Funny how you insist that salvation is by faith alone UNTIL you encounter someone who disagrees with your DOCTRINES and then you declare they are a tool of Satan and not truly saved. So much for John 3:16 huh?
1 John 5:1
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God
You still have not answered the questions,
1. If 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and after reading the Bible come to the conclusion that you believe false doctrines and are not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
2. Which of God’s 10 Commandments are impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you?
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Let me shock you snooopie, if we claim to be Protestant , it does not mean that we are saved. There are many people that sit in Protestant churches that think they are saved,
Now to the question you keep on asking, about the 2 Christians. I don’t understand the question.
Good morning snoop1e,
The Bible is pretty self-explanatory. There is no “magical way” to read it or understand it. Both the Old Testament and the New Testament point to one person: Jesus the Christ.
If 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and decide one is not teaching correctly it is because they read the Scripture and the teaching does not align with the Scripture.
Example: You say Jesus said we are to keep the commandments if we want to enter life. In Matthew He says the greatest commandment is:
Love the Lord, your God with all your heart, soul and strength.
The second is:
Love your neighbor as you love yourself.
So how hard is it to keep those commandments. From the “tone” of your writings you certainly are not keeping the second commandment. Your writing is rather acidic.
If we must “do” things to attain salvation then, I ask you:
Why did Jesus come and suffer the awful punishment and spill His blood?
This is not a “doctrinal” belief or question it is a fact. It is in the Bible.
The works that Peter writes about are the works given us by God as written in Eph 2:10 – “…created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”
The key words here: WHICH GOD PREPARED. Not works that WE feel will put us in good stead with God.
So if you align this with what Peter said about works, then you have a complete picture.
You keep complaining that “doctrinal view” causes issues yet you continue spouting RCC doctrinal views. A bit of hypocrisy there. Eh?
Col 2:8 says: Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
The key words here: “…according to the tradition of men…”. RCC has, a few years ago, stated (the pope) the RC TRADITION is equal to the Bible.
Man’s tradition is equal to God’s word? Truly?
Nope. When Bible believers turn away from a teacher it is because he has turned away from Scripture and has started teaching his own views.
Jesus told the apostles when he sent them out: “And whoever will not receive you, when you go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.” Luke 9:5
Yet there are the RCC terror tactics of the Spanish, French and Italian Inquisitions. Were they based on Scripture?
One last thought.
Romans 10:9-1 say:
“…that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”
Now, unless you have found a book of Holy Caveats, these verses make it very clear that Salvation comes from/through Jesus only.
Does that mean we go on sinning? Nope. Romans 6 says(in the first two verses no less!):
“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?”
So, again, the Scripture is very clear on Salvation.
It is easier for man, because of his ego, to say that we must do something to get something. Nothing is free. We have been saying it since the garden. Adam, instead of slapping the fruit from Eve’s hand and scolding her, thought it might not be a bad idea to know as much as God.
So here we are. A sinful, fallen world that rejects God at every turn and denies the truth and completeness of His word and design.
I was once RCC. Went to parochial school, attended daily mass, was a alter boy, was a page and squire for the KOC, attended catechism classes from the time I was 7-years old and even contemplated the priesthood.
Then I read the TRUTH.
I am no longer bound by man’s fallacy (protestant or RC).
I am bound by the Word of God.
God bless you and yours in all you do
Hello Lupe,
“The Bible is pretty self-explanatory.”
And yet there are over 40,000 different “Bible based” churches who do not agree about what is and is not “essential” for salvation and many of them think that your beliefs are unbiblical and you are not truly saved. Your claim that the Bible is “self explanatory” is not grounded in reality.
“Both the Old Testament and the New Testament point to one person: Jesus the Christ.”
Amen
“If 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and decide one is not teaching correctly it is because they read the Scripture and the teaching does not align with the Scripture.”
You prove my point very succinctly and you have not answered the question. In your mind (and in the minds of those who disagree with you) anyone who rejects your interpretation/teachings “does not align with scripture”
“You say Jesus said we are to keep the commandments if we want to enter life.”
I don’t say anything, what I say is irrelevant, Jesus said,
Matt 19:17
If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
I have no reason to question my Lord Jesus. If there is tension between your doctrines and Jesus words I suggest prayer and fasting and I mean that sincerely.
“In Matthew He says the greatest commandment is:
Love the Lord, your God with all your heart, soul and strength.
The second is: Love your neighbor as you love yourself.”
When God gave Moses the 10 Commandments they were written on 2 stone tablets. The first stone tablet contains the Commandments that tell us HOW to “love God” the second stone tablet contains the Commandments that tell us HOW to “love our neighbor”. So if you think that you can somehow fulfill the 2 great commands WITHOUT using some means other than the mode that God gave you to do so you are kidding yourself.
“So how hard is it to keep those commandments.”
By our own strength it is impossible (Mark 10:27), (Phil 4:13) but God is faithful and with God ALL things are possible. Where is your faith brother?
1 Corp 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
Luke 1:6
Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, obeying ALL of the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly.
“Your writing is rather acidic.”
Do my words make you want to pick up stones? The people tortured, humiliated and murdered Jesus simply because He told them to repent and obey the Gospel. Jesus told them the path to destruction is wide and easy and many are on it but narrow and difficult is the path to eternal life and few are on it. Do you find Jesus words “acidic”? Should I just tell people what they want to hear? That is why many “churches” today now allow gay clergy and gay marriage and abortion, because they don’t want to offend anyone. My intent is not to upset anyone but the world hates the truth. The world murdered the Truth.
“If we must “do” things to attain salvation then, I ask you:
Why did Jesus come and suffer the awful punishment and spill His blood?”
Because only an unblemished lamb could atone for sins against a perfect God.
“created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”
Amen
“The key words here:”
Where in the passage does it ever say “the key words here”? Answer, no where. By what authority do you presume to tall anyone which Words of God are and are not “keys”? If got a “key” word for you.
Matt 16:18
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
“Not works that WE feel will put us in good stead with God.”
You mean like rejecting the 10 Commandments and coming up with your own alternative, man made way of pleasing God that does not include loving God and loving your neighbor? That is rich. You consistently put aside the Commandments of God (Mark 7:9) and then lecture me on devising my own set of works to please God. I have news for you, the good works that God prepared for us to do (Eph 2:10) are explicitly spelled out in His 10 Commandments. Wake up.
“So if you align this with what Peter said about works, then you have a complete picture.”
No what we have is you defining scripture according to your doctrines instead of defining your doctrines according to the scriptures.
“You keep complaining that “doctrinal view” causes issues yet you continue spouting RCC doctrinal views.”
I never said “doctrinal view causes issues”. Again those are your words describing what you believe about me. What I have said is it is doubleminded to insist that salvation is by “faith alone” and not according to doctrines/works and then spend time condemning fellow believers because of their doctrines and works. That makes no sense at all. By doing so you (unknowingly) undermine your own first principle and it just makes you seem confused.
“A bit of hypocrisy there. Eh?”
No kidding
“Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit”
I quote you scripture and somehow in your mind that is philosophy and deceit.
“according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.”
You mean like telling people what tickles their ears? That the way to eternal life is to put aside God’s commands and live according to the flesh?
“The key words here”
Who taught you that the doctrines of sola fide, sola scriptura and eternal security (once saved always saved) that were invented by Martin Luther and John Calvin over 1500 years after the last Apostle died are not traditions of men?
“Man’s tradition is equal to God’s word? Truly?”
You seem to be suggesting that I reject everything you have written in this forum and go by scripture alone yes/no? Funny how that works isn’t it? You see you don’t have a problem with tradition you just have a problem with tradition you disagree with. I’ve got news for you, their is a reason that Martin Luther had to declare that justification was by “faith alone”, he had to declare it because it did not exist yet. If it did there would be no need to announce it.
“When Bible believers turn away from a teacher it is because he has turned away from Scripture and has started teaching his own views.”
You don’t say? And let me guess, your views are “Biblical” and anyone who disagrees with you has “turned away from scripture”, isn’t that right?
“Yet there are the RCC terror tactics of the Spanish, French and Italian Inquisitions. Were they based on Scripture?”
You just look foolish. The myths of the “Spanish Inquisition” were debunked a very long time ago. Protestant scholars wince whenever people like you say things like that. Please educate yourself so that we can have a substantive, facts based discussion. Seriously, the Muslim comment was bad enough.
https://youtu.be/CY-pS6iLFuc
“…that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”
Indeed and yet you have spent days in here suggesting that Christians who reject your doctrines are not truly saved. You really do seem very confused.
“these verses make it very clear that Salvation comes from/through Jesus only.”
Amen. Just because God commands that we not rape and murder does not mean that Salvation comes through not raping and murdering. Your reason is darkened.
“Does that mean we go on sinning?”
Certainly not! How shall we who have died to sin live any longer in it?”
“So, again, the Scripture is very clear on Salvation.”
Amen!
“So here we are. A sinful, fallen world that rejects God at every turn and denies the truth and completeness of His word and design.”
I’m sorry but their is something odd about someone who has spent so much time and energy arguing for not obeying God’s commandments writing about “rejecting God and denying the truth and completeness of His word” Forgive me for not shedding a tear but I am laughing too hard.
“I am no longer bound by man’s fallacy (protestant or RC).”
I have news for you, you are…. a man
God Bless you and yours as well
.
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”
I ask you,
1. Which of God’s commandments is impossible for you to keep with Christ IN you?
2. If 2 Christians gather together in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they come to the conclusion that your beliefs are not Biblical, that you are a false teacher and that you are not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
3. Are your interpretations of the Bible perfect and free from all error?
God Bless,
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
“And yet there are over 40,000 different “Bible based” churches who do not agree about what is and is not “essential” for salvation and many of them think that your beliefs are unbiblical and you are not truly saved. Your claim that the Bible is “self explanatory” is not grounded in reality.”
That is a lie.
Sorry should have said,
So if you think that you can somehow fulfill the 2 great commands using some means other than the means that God gave you then you are kidding yourself.
Also didn’t mean to call you a man. Lost track of who I was responding to. My point is you are still tied to a human fallacy it’s just a fallacy you have chosen to be tied to. In other words you haven’t rejected tradition you have simply chosen one tradition over another. That or you have created your own.
God Bless
Hey, don’t even accuse Brian Broderson of going Costa Meccan rogue! Follow the money for every one of the CC franchises! The deceptive reason ALL Calvary Chapel pastors deny the “movement” is a denomination is because real denominations HAVE built-in financial accountability measures and would risk reputational embarrassment for fiscal mismanagement and malfeasance .Thus Calvary Chapel “monsignor” pastors do not provide financial transparency (salaries, expenditures, property holdings, nepotistic and family dynastic succession appointments, etc.) to their flocks. A real LUPINE tactic, not to mention a carryover from the shady dealings of the Pentecostal wheelers and dealers throughout the 20th century. They hire and fire their boards, staff, elders at their whims. This is the real legacy in pastoral theology that they all inherited from “Moses” Chuck. (A lot like Trump, you think?) And of course most of the flocks are ex-Catholics who all their lives were never schooled in the Protestant ecclesiastical democracy of annual church meetings where the financials were all spelled out, argued and then voted on, where the pastor is ultimately employed AT THE PLEASURE OF THE CONGREGATION!!! I dare anyone to take a survey to see how many CC “pastors” (they don’t hold the title of “reverend”) have as much as a B.A. degree from a secular college. Forget the anathema of seminary training–Bible college is a big accomplishment , if at all. Don’t dare give them a biblical language oral reading test in Hebrew and Greek because most are illiterate in these. I used to cringe listening to Pope Chuck mispronounce Hebrew and Greek words (eg., Tie-cheek-us=Tychicus) !! Any regenerate believer with a high school graduate reading level and a competent study Bible has as much “food” for himself as what he is going to be fed from a CC pulpit–and the children’s menu never changes! Time will tell whether our Lord keeps or removes the Calvary Chapel “candlesticks.” from his protective presence. (In pure business terms-the dove will have flown the coop!)
I used to attend the “flagship” CC in NJ in the 90s until the anticipation of Y2K got the leadership on some of the most immature diversions from the Word of God and with the above abuses in play decided it was time to bail out.
Thank you for making my point Dan. While I am a former Protestant/Evangelical (over 30 years) now Catholic I agree with much of what you have stated.
In this forum there are many who defend Chuck Smith and Cavalry Chapel and just as many who reject and condemn Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel.
Again, when 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they agree that a Pastor is wrong and not truly saved but 2 other Christians gather in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they agree that the same Pastor is right and is truly saved who is correct and who decides?
According to the doctrine of scripture alone BOTH are correct which is an impossibility.
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Reading through much of this “non-essential” argument, I have to say that I will be praying for you. This is the essential that is as clear as crystal (if it is not to you, there is a great bible study tool called “Precept Upon Precept” it really is an in-depth study of each line of the scriptures):
Romans 5:8-11 ” 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified [a]by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved [b]by His life. 11 And not only this, [c]but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.” AND…
Ephesian’s 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God”
…(It is THE GIFT OF GOD) gift implies that our salvation is given to us freely as a gift we don’t deserve or did nothing to deserve(example like when someone gives a gift at christmas time, you didn’t do something special for that gift, it was given to you undeserving because that person loves you), not something we’ve earned!
Works= the obedience because of our faith in Christ to live by the word of God, doing His will. Not continuing on in our old way of life when we were dead in our sins…
Ephesians 4:22-24 “22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, 23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.”
It is my understanding that neither Chuck Smith nor Greg Laurie- two of the biggies -received/s salaries from church donations. Like the apostle Paul, they work/ed regular jobs for their living.
So, while they could have taken millions from the church coffers, they only taught the scriptures as they understood them. I’m pretty sure the same can be said of most of the apostles. Including their lack of formal education.
Seems to me that Christians would have figured out by now that it is the Holy Spirit that makes the truth known and not a seminary. Since Paul made it abundantly clear when he said in 1Cor.1:17-29;
“For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: NOT WITH THE WISDOM OF WORDS, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
WHERE IS THE WISE? WHERE IS THE SCRIBE? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
For after that in the wisdom of God THE WORLD BY WISDOM KNEW NOT GOD, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
For the Jews require a sign, and THE GREEKS SEEK AFTER WISDOM:
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Because THE FOOLISHNESS OF GOD IS WISER THAN MEN; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that NOT MANY WISE AFTER THE FLESH, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world TO CONFOUND THE WISE; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
AND BASE THINGS OF THE WORLD, AND THINGS WHICH ARE DESPISED, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
That no flesh should glory in his presence THAT NO FLESH SHOULD GLORY IN HIS PRESENCE.”
When you make a case like the one you did here you sound more like the rcc that forbad laymen from reading and teaching the scriptures, than Paul who preached the simple message of Christ and Him crucified.
I’m not saying there are not problems, as have been clearly laid out here at Berean Research, with some of the CC teachers. But, to blame it on a lack of formal education is not Biblical.
Blessings:-}
Please do tell what outside job Greg Laurie has had, he us quite wealthy, where did he get his wealth
Sounds like he was right all along! So many times taking a stance is not the popular stance. God bless him!
Interesting how you believe that salvation is by faith alone and not by any doctrines or works but then you all condemn any Pastors who deviate from what you believe are correct doctrines and works.
So Edwitness is Greg Laurie saved by believing in Jesus or by sharing your doctrines and beliefs? Now that you disagree with Greg Laurie does that mean he is no longer “saved”? Was he ever truly saved to begin with? How is it possible for wrong preaching to save someone?
Lastly why would you leave a church whose Pastor is saved simply because you disagree with some of his beliefs/doctrines? If he is saved and is saving others what is the problem? Why would you let doctrinal differences divide Christ’s Body? That is not Biblical. Paul commanded that we put aside divisions and be ONE.
“if you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
I think that 1 Corinthians 3:9-15 would apply in these situations.
Amen John:-D
Blessings:-}
I think you evaded the question.
If salvation is by faith alone and not according to doctrines or works why condemn a fellow believer because of their doctrines and works?
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
What does “not according to doctrines” mean?
Not according to doctrines or works means that our doctrines and how we live our life has no affect on our salvation if we believe in Jesus Christ.
So my question was/is, if our doctrines and works have nothing to do with salvation why are people in this forum condemning others according to (because of) their doctrines and works?
P.S. the Bible refutes the teaching that our life and our doctrines have nothing to do with our salvation.
1 Tim 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
P.S.S. The Bible refutes the teaching of salvation by faith alone
James 2:24
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
snooop1e,
They are being called out for teachings that are harmful. But, that does not necassarily mean they are not saved. Even though it could depending on the issue.
If we believe something that directly contradicts the clear teaching of scripture, but it does not change who Jesus is or how we are saved, salvation is not in jeopardy. Like when the rapture is or who the AC is.
But, whether Jesus is God or if someone believes that works + grace is required for salvation, that person is not saved. These are certainly salvation issues.
What is the final authority for the Christian? The Bible. For everyone else man’s wisdom is all they look to.
snooop1e,
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus said to His Israelite disciples who were under the law
P.S.
Matthew 28:18-20
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
Note: Jesus tells the Apostles to teach ALL NATIONS to OBEY ALL OF HIS COMMANDMENTS.
If you wont listen to Jesus, will you at least listen to Paul?
Eph 5:5
For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure, or greedy person (that is, an idolater), has ANY inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
snooop1e,
You said, “Note: Jesus tells the Apostles to teach ALL NATIONS to OBEY ALL OF HIS COMMANDMENTS.”
Paul was not among them when Jesus told them this. And Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles. Those listening to Jesus when He said that are not.
Paul called the message he was given for the Gentiles from Jesus “my gospel”. Rom.6:12
And in Gal.1:12 he makes it clear he was not taught it by any man.
Nice try though.
You clealrly are missing the point. What did Jesus tell the Apostles to do?
I’ll help you, Jesus told the Apostles to,
“go and make disciples of ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and TEACH them TO OBEY EVERYTHING I HAVE COMMANDED YOU.
ALL NATIONS means EVERYONE, both Jew and Gentile, Greek and Roman, Male and Female, Slave and Free. ALL NATIONS.
Jesus said this AFTER His resurrection. So what if Paul was commissioned to preach to the Gentiles, it has no bearing on this passage. Jesus last command to the Apostles was to Baptize ALL NATIONS and teach them to OBEY EVERYTHING He commanded. Everything includes Matt 19:17.
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
The others were not sent to the Gentiles the way Paul was. Even the other apostles knew this. Gal.2:7-9; “But contrariwise, WHEN THEY SAW THAT THE GOSPEL OF THE UNCIRCUMCISION WAS COMMITTED UNTO ME, AS THE GOSPEL OF THE CIRCUMCISION WAS UNTO PETER;(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was GIVEN UNTO ME, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, AND THEY UNTO THE CIRCUMCISION.”
Please note these are two different presentations of the gospel. One Paul called the gospel OF THE UNCIRCUMCISION, and the other the gospel OF THE CIRCUMCISION. They both lead to Jesus, but through different presentations.
There is Paul’s message, the “mystery”. Which is Christ in you. Col.1:25-27; “Whereof I AM MADE A MINISTER, ACCORDING TO THE DISPENSATION OF GOD WHICH IS GIVEN TO ME FOR YOU, to fulfil the word of God;
Even the MYSTERY which hath been HID FROM AGES AND FROM GENERATIONS , but now is made manifest to his saints:
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this MYSTERY AMONG THE GENTILES; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:”
And there is the other apostle’s message. The one Jesus Spoke to the Young man with great possessions who was an Israelite under the law, that you have referred to quoting, “But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments”. The one laid out in detail in the letter to the Hebrews especially, (no surprise there) and of course their epistles. This gospel makes the connection for Israelites between the law and Jesus’ salvation.
Which for the Gentile was and is not necassary. Because the Gentile has never been under the law. Rom.2:14, “For when the Gentiles, WHICH DO NOT HAVE THE LAW, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:” By their nature? There’s a message in there.
And therefore the Gentile has never been responsible for keeping them. As Paul said in Rom.4:15, “Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, THERE IS NO TRANSGRESSION.” And 5:13, “For until the law sin was in the world: but SIN IS NOT IMPUTED when there is no law.”
“The others were not sent to the Gentiles the way Paul was. Even the other apostles knew this.”
Your points are utterly irrelevant. Paul is very clear,
Eph 5:5
For OF THIS YOU CAN BE SURE: NO IMMORAL, IMPURE, or GREEDY person (that is, an idolater), HAS ANY INHERITANCE IN THE KINGDOM OF CHRIST AND OF GOD.
NOTE: The Immoral, The Impure and the Greedy do not have ANY INHERITANCE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
Paul goes on to say,
Eph 5:6
LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU WITH EMPTY WORDS for because of such things GOD’S WRATH COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT.
By perverting Paul’s letters to teach disobedience salvation you fulfill the prophecy of scripture (2 Peter 3:16) and your unrepentant heart is storing up wrath for the day of your judgement (Rom 2:5).
2 Peter 3:16
He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard not to be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.
There are tens of thousands of “Bible based” Protestant churches who utterly reject your “dual covenant” disobedience salvation gospel. You are like a gong clanging in the wind and you still have not answered the question.
When 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and agree with your interpretation of the Bible but 2 other Christians gather in Jesus name and completely reject your interpretation of the Bible which 2 Christians are correct and who decides? You cannot answer this question.
Pauls explicitly refutes your dual covenant disobedience salvation theology in (Eph 5:5), (1 Cor 6:9), (Gal 5:19-21), (Rom 2:6-13), (Heb 5:9) and (Hebrew 10:26).
Below is a link to a Protestant website that utterly refutes your unbiblical “dual covenant” theology using scripture alone.
goo.gl/Urkw97
You cannot answer the question. When 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and after reading the scriptures agree that your beliefs are not biblical who is correct and who decides? You still have not answered the question.
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
snooop1e,
You said, “Your points are utterly irrelevant.”
Then I guess it’s, Good day.
You cannot answer the questions.
If 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they agree that you believe false doctrines and are not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
Which of God’s commandments are impossible for you to obey with Christ in you?
P.S.
Paul wrote the following to the “Gentile” Christians at Ephesus,
Eph 5:5
For OF THIS YOU CAN BE SURE: NO IMMORAL, IMPURE or GREEDY person (such a person is an idolator) has ANY INHERITANCE IN THE KINGDOM OF CHRIST AND OF GOD.
Eph 5:6
LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU WITH EMPTY WORDS for BECAUSE OF SUCH THINGS, GOD’S GODS WRATH COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT.
I pray you stop perverting the Grace of God into a license for immorality.
1 Jude 4
For certain men have crept in among you unnoticed — ungodly ones who were designated long ago for condemnation. They turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality, and they deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Repent and obey the Gospel before it’s too late for the Kingdom of God is at hand.
“If I had not come and spoken to them they would not be guilty of sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin”
-Jesus
snooop1e, do you keep the commandments?
Luke 1:6
Both of them were righteous in the eyes of God obeying all of His commands and decrees blamelessly.
You still have not answered my questions.
If 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and after reading example Bible they agree that you believe unbiblical doctrines and are not saved who is correct and who decides?
Which of God’s 10 commandments are impossible for you to obey with Christ in you?
You cannot answer the questions, if you could you would.
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
I think that two covenants is okay. The only place it matters is revelation. I think its a form of universalism. I believe the book is over the psalms of korah and that apocrypha psuedopocrypha and extrabiblical reasources are valid. Your looking for people who act like the essenes. But universalism takes shape as prophets are moved. I want to bring catholicism and calvary chapel closer.
Huh? What you say is impossible.
The Old Covenant is conditional. The New Covenant is unconditional. It is impossible to be under both at the same time. Because if you try to observe both at the same time the one that is conditional will cancel out the one that is not. That is why Paul wrote; “FOR IF THEY WHICH ARE OF THE LAW BE HEIRS, FAITH IS MADE VOID, AND THE PROMISE OF NONE EFFECT.”
Rom.4:14
And rcc is not Christian because of this.
Many Calvary Chapels also got involved in Politics to the point it seemed like IDOLATRY esp. when it came to Trump. Jack Hibbs comes to mind.
There is no doubt in my mind that the seperation will continue as we head to the final chapter of the great apostasy. You will see more denominations falter as they jettison their last vestiges of Jesus Christ and embrace an open apostate position. Clearly foretold in the bible.
Who decides what is and is not an “apostate position”? Let me guess, you do….
Nope, your pope.
Your sarcasm is just evading the question.
It’s a serious question, In the Protestant body of Christ who decides what is or is not “apostate”?
King James Bible
Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
Something tells me the irony escapes you? Today there are over 40,000 “Bible based” Protestant churches who do not worship together as one body because they disagree about the correct meaning of the Bible and what is and is not essential for salvation.
Surely you see how silly it is for a Protestant to lecture anyone about division and disagreement. You don’t even agree with each other. As a matter of fact it seems like the only time that Protestants agree is when they are attacking Catholics. Remove the Catholic from the room and you turn on each other.
In the Protestant body of Christ who decides the correct meaning of the verse you just posted? In the Protestant body of Christ who decides the correct meaning of the Bible? In the Protestant body of Christmas who decides which Bible is the correct Bible to use?
Many Bible based Christians will say that you have misinterpreted the verse that you posted? Who is right you or the Protestants who disagree with you and who decides? That is the confusion/division that results from Martin Luthers unbiblical doctrine of “Scripture Alone” (aka Sola Scriptura)
CAVEAT:
Your belief that the Bible alone is your only authority is an merely an illusion for the Bible does not tell you the MEANING of each passage in the Bible. YOU tell the Bible the meaning of the words in the Bible and the Bible just lays there silently and agrees with your interpretation of it AND if you change your mind and decide that a passage of the Bible actually means the exact opposite of what you previously thought it meant the Bible will immediately agree with your new interpretation of it. No matter how many times you change your interpretation of the Bible the Bible will lay there silently and instantly agree with your NEW interpretation of it.
This is why there are Protestant churches today who allow female clergy, allow gay clergy and allow gay marriage. The Bible didn’t change and God didn’t change, the ONLY thing that changed was their interpretation of the Bible.
You refuse to answer the question because the truth is, in Protestantism every individual decides for themselves what the Bible says what is and is not “essential” for salvation.
When 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and agree that your interpretation of the Bible is incorrect who is right and who decides? You cannot answer the question. The answer is you are BOTH right…which is why there are over 40,000 different Protestant churches.
Ironically this division and disagreement in Protestatism is not Biblical.
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
what took them so long.
Good for them to do this. But, Chuck Smith was also a false teacher. Chuck Smith taught all his life the lie that catholicism is Christian. So I’m not sure why people don’t recognize that. He said it in teachings, in books, and on the radio.
Jess,
Chuck always disagreed doctrinally with much of what defines RC doctrine. His position was that their wrong theology was not a disqualifyer because they believe that Jesus is God and died for the sin of the world. Chuck was wrong in my view but, was very much a Christian that believed and taught “sola fide”.
Blessings:-}
Chuck taught that salvation you had to be born again through faith to obtain salvation. If you read the Catholic creed there is a lot of correct stuff in it. There are Catholics who have been born again and there are people sitting at Calvary who have not. The church is universal of all who have been saved. Chuck when he got to the passages that brought it up repudiated transubstantiation, immaculate conception, praying to the saints, Mary being co redemptress and mediator of grace, confession to a priest, Peter as the 1st Pope and on down the line every time Catholic doctrine departed from scripture Chuck was on it.
Who decides what is and is not an “apostate position”? Let me guess, you do….
The Catholics and Calvary chapelists are both wrong on this subject.
Eph. 2:8 For BY GRACE ARE YOU SAVED through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.
We are saved by God’s Grace. God graced us, He has chosen you for salvation.(2Thess. 2:13).We have nothing to do with that. Just like we have nothing to do with our natural birth. We have nothing to do with our spiritual birth, it is all of God’s work.
We all like the verse John 3:16 That is not all of the conversation Jesus had with Nicodemus. My suggestion to you is meditate on John 3:7,8 ; John 3:14,15. You will have a whole new understanding of John 3:16 Not the way you have been taught at Calvary Chapel.
Calvinist huh?
Calvin erred in that his doctrine of “irresistible grace” denies free will. If “we have nothing to do with our rebirth” then we have no free will. The beautiful thing about God’s grace is we can CHOOSE to accept or reject it. God does not force us to accept His grace.
“if you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
snooop1e,
“if you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus speaking to Israelites for Israelites
@snooopie Your little comment is full of fallacies, you need to join a solid Bible teaching church. I can’t tackle all of the fallacies, but first and many stumble over this and that is ” free will”. You can’t show me one verse were these two words appear together in the Bible. Yes man is born with a will, but it is not free. Romans 6:20 says man is a slave of sin. Man’s will is geared on nothing but evil. The Bible says in Mark 7:21-23 Mans heart is evil. And in Jer. 17:9 Mans heart is sick. In Romans 3:10-12 man does not seek for God. In 1 Cor. 2:14 Man cannot understand spiritual things. After I gave all these verses out of the Bible and there are more, where it says man’s heart is evil and sick, and does not seek for God and cannot understand God. My question to you is after all these verses how is man able to believe in Jesus if God does not give him the ability to believe. God must take out the heart of stone and give him a heart of flesh. In other words God makes him born again, it is all God’s work. And please supply me with Bible verses to prove your point.
Amen to that Marinus L. What a blessing it is to read something so clearly Biblical. Thank you 😀
Blessings:-}
http://www.bible.ca/cal-I-refutation.htm
http://churchfight.com/church-fight-home-page/calvinism
http://www.johnstonfamilyministry.com/article/refuting-what-calvinists-believe-what-calvinists-know
These are just a few random sites, there are literally tens of thousands…
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Reblogged on: https://1way2yahweh.wordpress.com
maybe im missing something?? false teaching and fale doctrines taught from calvary??? I thought they were a bible reading ,walking thru, in context fellowhip…..please send me any articles or inks on that
Not all Calvary’s, but more and more. Reading through the Histories in the bible has opened my eyes to our own “high places” within Calvary Chapels, or worshiping the true God in false or lazy ways. The devil has always worked to maintain footholds within the church just as with Israel and Judah. The most insidious and subtle ways have been worship music (especially Vineyard, Hillsong, and the worship of the Holy Spirit out of context with what scripture teaches and doesn’t teach) Children’s Ministry (I myself have been guilty of being less than vigilant there – ordering materials from a Oneness Pentecostal and having to tweak and add to the lessons due to problems within the curriculum), and Women’s Ministry. False worship of the true God is the same in God’s eyes as idolatry (avodah zerah). All Calvary’s have these problems, but some have gone into Rick Warrens Global Peace Plan, Hybel’s seeker sensitive mush, and the push for unity of anything that can slap “Jesus” on their bumper sticker.
Kawika, consider the following:
– Chuck set dates for the Rapture in his 1978 books, “End Times” and “Future Survival.” He predicted a date of May 1981. When that didn’t happen, he allowed for some leeway and – according to David Hocking – had gathered with many of his people on New Years Eve 1981, awaiting the Rapture. When that didn’t happened, he changed it to 2000.
– In his book, “Answers For Today” (1993), he wrote that Catholics are just another Christian denomination and part of the Body of Christ.
– In “Charisma vs. Charismania,” Chuck taught that the Holy Spirit can cause people to experience various sensations, such as “ten thousand volts of electricity…,” “a warm sensation,” “waves of glory,” “a tingling sensation…,” “uncontrollable weeping,” “a violent shaking.”
– In “Charisma vs. Charismania,” Chuck turns to psychologist Maslow to describe man and how he functions. Chuck says, “Down in the deepest part of man, in the area of his spirit, there is also a very strong thirst or drive. This is the thirst of man’s spirit for a meaningful relationship with God.”
– Chuck Smith taught for over 50 years that God does not redeem the body, but that our resurrection will be only a spiritual one. On Sept. 22, 1998, he said, “God does not redeem the body.” This is the same heresy he taught for decades. He never changed his teaching on this.
– Chuck Smith taught for decades that after Christ’s death on the cross, He was, AND IS, existing apart from the Trinity. Chuck said, in the evening service of May 18, 1997, that in the future “Jesus will once again take His place in the Triune Godhead.” Until then, Chuck says, Jesus is still a little lower than the angels; in the future, He will once again take up His place in Deity.
These are just a few problems with Chuck Smith. Not all CC pastors teach or believe the same as Chuck, but many do and, of those who don’t, they rarely have spoken up or left the denomination. Chuck got a “pass” because he was “Papa Chuck;” he was the nice guy and our spiritual father, so we don’t question him.
Berlorac, you better repent, you are such a liar, about all the things you said about what Pastor Chuck thought, I was under his teaching for 42 years. ( and worked for his ministry for over 28 years, and I never heard those things you are saying) may our Lord open your eyes,
Christa, do you have Chuck’s books? Perhaps you could re-read them. Do you have access to his sermons? Perhaps you could re-listen to the ones given on the dates I’ve listed above. Unless those books have been reprinted without those quotes, and unless those sermons have been removed or edited, you can read/hear for yourself.
Again I repeat, do or did people have their eyes on Chuck or The Lord? Personally I think that Chuck was one of the greatest teachers I had ever heard but… if what berlorac says is true, then I have to rethink my position. At least I feel I’m open minded enough to do so. There’s also another person in the past that seems to be be misinterpreted. Three years before his death, this person wrote a book called, “The Jews And Their Lies”. A quote from that book reads: What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? I shall give you my sincere advice: First to set fire to their synagogues in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians”. As a Jew who loves Yeshua, I am greatly offended by these words! It gets even worse in this book. By the way the author was Martin Luther!
I forgot to mention that this so called book was one of the cornerstones of the Third Reich Movement. That’s not an opinion but history. Check it out.
Thanks for sharing. Most people are easily mislead ! That’s why “teachers ” will face a harsher judgement. Amen.
Christa, I too went to Calvary Chapel since 1979, and I too worked for Calvary Chapel for many years, and I have heard and read Pastor Chuck teach all those things that Belorac pointed out I have that very cassette tape by David Hocking, I have all those books and other tapes of those very teaching. I will mail them all to you if you would like to see and hear for yourself
Berlorac is correct, and has spoken truthfully. It’s a shame that some people treat Chuck Smith with cult-like zeal. He was just a man, and he was wrong on a lot of things.
Belorac speaks the truth.
Also, In 2011 Chuck Smith (may God rest his soul) shocked many 9f his listeners when a pregnant woman called into his radio show asking if she should abort her conjoined twins and Chuck Smith advised her that she could abort them and God would forgive her. Chuck Smith was a sincere man and I think he meant well but you know what they say, the road to he’ll is paved with good intentions. What surprises me is how many people are completely loyal to Chuck Smith but actually know very little about him or his history. Everything Belorac posted is factual.
Lastly Calvary Chapels are run according to the “Moses principle”. Unlike other churches where the board of Elders choose/elect the Pastor, in Calvary Chapel churches the PASTOR appoints ALL of the Elders and he can fire any/all of them at any time and for any reason. In other words Calvary Chapel Pastors have immense power and control EVERYTHING in their churches and not even the board of Elders can fire the Pastor.
http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/7064816215.html
A lot of talk from someone who certainly does not have facts to back up their attack on Pastor Chuck. You clearly show a bias against the man in attacking his theological understanding. Shame on you!
JB, so when has truth become “biased” and “attacking”. That is not making any sense.
Lies, don’t know what your motivation is. Went thru the Bible with Pastor Chuck several times from 1970 to his move to Heaven. He never taught these things.
You can read the bible, but also at the same time misinterpret it.
There is irony in this story I believe should be pointed out.
Dwight Douville said –
“I was told that the real reason for my recent removal from leadership in Wisconsin following the release of my March letters isn’t related to how I asked pertinent questions about the direction of CCs, it’s that I asked at all… ”
Many individuals and families have been ostracized and lost relationships with family, friends, work and business acquaintances because they also asked simple “pertinent” questions or pointed out something the CC “senior” pastor of a local church didn’t like or felt challenged his authority or power.
Now, ironically, a CC pastor is getting the same treatment.
I’m not saying that Douville treated people this way but this has been a problem with individual Calvary Chapel’s for decades. It’s inherent with the type of church polity Chuck Smith taught and propagated.
Hopefully there is a lesson here for the CC pastors who are being treated this way and that is this this has been happening to non-member members for a long time and they also only had one and the same option, “to vote with their feet”, and leave.
Except there is a difference, it cost the Individuals and families much much much more, they not only lost their affiliation but their church and sometimes family, friends, etc., all in one blow. If they tried to talk to someone, which is hard to find, they were only “causing division”. Sound familiar?
Perhaps if these peoples questions (many of them more than legitimate) were handled in a godly manner CC wouldn’t be facing the issues in this article, but they weren’t, the questions were dismissed and then those who asked them were shunned.
There were problems long before Dwight Douville or Roger Oakland became aware of them. Seems they didn’t notice until it happened to them.
Q, good point. I was one of those who dared leave the “one true Body.” And, mind you, they were not speaking of the Body of Christ that exists the world over. They weren’t even narrowing it CC, in general, although we certainly heard many times that there is no real truth outside of CC. No, they actually taught that the local CC was the Body and that if you left it, you would flounder. You couldn’t have a life outside of the local CC, either.
When I tried to get together with some CC friends after I left there, the only time those friends were allowed to associate with me is if they made a pitch to get me to come back to the true Body. Unbelievable.
Berlorac,
Never once in all the years I have gone too Calvary Chapels around the country have I ever heard anything like what you say you experienced. In fact the opposite would be closer to the teaching at these churches. As far as I have seen they do not practice nor encourage shunning.
It’s the (self elect) Calvinist’s who love to attack Chuck Smith, or any church that does not bow down to false idol Worship of heritics such as the gnostic influenced Catholic founder Augustine and his clone John Calvin that hate to accept that man does have a free will and that all will be individually accountable for their actions on judgement day.
JB. The word “free” and the word “will” are never used in combination in the Bible like “free will”. Show me one verse. Calvinist never say that man does not have a will, in fact we say that all are born with a will, but after Adam’s fall or will is tainted, and the unregenerate man has a will, but it is not free, he is a slave to sin, when you are a slave to sin you are not free.
The Bible says in Mark 7:21-23 Mans heart is evil, Romans 6:20 Man is a slave to sin, Rom. 3:10-12 He does not seek for God, 1Cor. 2:14 He cannot understand spiritual things. How can an unregenerate man in this kind of condition choose God, he can not unless God first touches his heart, take out the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh. We all like to say we love You Jesus, but You first loved us. We like to pray for our prodical’s, but do we really mean it when we say, Jesus save our sons our daughters.
We don’t choose God, He choose us. And we accept His offer of salvation.
He choose us first, we accept.
You don’t have to walk to the altar. You can, no matter where you are, if God speaks to your heart, say these few words and really mean it from the bottom of your heart,” Lord, have mercy on me a sinner, I am in need of a Savior, please save me.” If you really mean it, He will save you. How will you know wether you mean it. Jesus says if you love Me you keep my commandments, the apostle Paul says you are a new creation, that means you will abandon your old lifestyle.
I was at CC from 89 to 2002 when I married a Baptist. One thing I know is this, being taught all along free will- well when I was lost in my sin, I was a meth addict for 4 yrs in the 80’s, I never choose God. In fact, my picker was broken. God found me! My CC pastor came and knocked on my door!!! He reached out in my darkness and sent someone to my house to share the gospel with ME. I didn’t seek him out. I understand that more and more today- 27 yrs out. That glorious GRACE!
“Not perfect doctrinally. But, still for the most part in line with scripture…”
Who decides if someone is “perfect doctrinally” and/or “in line with scripture”?
Let me guess, you do and anyone who disagrees with you is not “in line with scripture”…
Here is a question for you
If 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they agree that your beliefs/doctrines are not “in line with scripture” and that you and anyone who agrees with you is not truly saved who is correct? You or them and how do you know?
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
“JB. The word “free” and the word “will” are never used in combination in the Bible like “free will”
Thank you for pointing out that the Bible NEVER says that man does not have free will.
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Hey snoopie Jesus said ,” Don’t throw your pearls before swine,” Why don’t you find out what this means.
It means that non believers are not to receive Jesus body and blood in the sanctuary.
In 1 Corinthians 10:16-21, Paul says the following:
“The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the BLOOD of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the BODY of Christ? Because there is ONE bread, we who are many are one body, for WE ALL PARTAKE OF THE ONE BREAD”
This is Prophesied in Isaiah 62:8-9. Only God’s people (true believers) shall eat and drink the bread and wine in God’s sanctuary.
Isaiah 62:8-9
The LORD has sworn by his right hand
and by his mighty arm:
“I will not again give your grain
to be food for your enemies,
and foreigners shall not drink your wine
for which you have labored;
9but those who garner it shall eat it
and praise the LORD,
and those who gather it shall drink it
in the courts of my sanctuary.”
Non believers are like Jesus disciples in John 6:66 who rejected Him and walked away when He said His body is REAL (not symbolic) food and His blood is REAL (not symbolic) drink and everyone must eat His body and drink His blood. The reason the people walked away is because they knew Jesus was speaking literally as I will point out later.
St. Paul speaks about the reality of Jesus’ body and blood which Jesus revealed to him.
1 Corp 11:23-30
For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you…27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner WILL BE GUILTY OF SINNING AGAINST THE BODY AND THE BLOOD OF THE LORD.
Lest anyone try to pervert the true meaning of his words Paul goes on to clarify,
1 Cor 11:29
“For any one who eats and drinks WITHOUT RECOGNIZING THE BODY eats and drinks CONDEMNATION upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and sick, and some of you have died.”
In the Gospels whenever Jesus is speaking literally He begins with “Very, truly” or “Truly, truly”. Jesus does this to let His followers know that what He is about to say is not a parable or a metaphor.
John 6:53
“Very, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is REAL food and my blood is REAL drink. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood ABIDES IN ME, AND I IN HIM. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who EATS ME will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread WILL LIVE FOREVER”
Repent and OBEY the Gospel (Jesus teachings), the kingdom of God is at hand.
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
See, I knew you would come up with another example of a belief the Bible nowhere teaches that disqualifies someone from salvation. Your reply to Marinus L about your definition of what pearls before swine means is a perfect example!
“a belief the Bible nowhere teaches that disqualifies someone from salvation”
So much for John 3:16 huh?
On the one hand you insist that the ONLY thing necessary for salvation is faith in Jesus Christ but then you declare people who believe in Jesus “disqualified from salvation” simply because they disagree with YOUR teachings.
Are we saved by agreeing with you or by belief in Jesus Christ?
You still have not answered the questions. You cannot, and so you attack and declare people “disqualified from salvation”. You are a mess.
1. If 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they agree that you are incorrect, not truly Christian and not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
2. Which of God’s Commandments is impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you?
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Nope. I was clear that the Bible teaches who God is and if we say he is not the only God or that there is another way to heaven, etc… then we are nat saved.
John14:6- “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
There are clubs that disagree with Jesus’ statement here. they are not Christian.
Oh, shunning at CC does indeed exist. It was time for my wife and myself to leave CC as we felt that was what the Lord wanted us to do. As it turns out it was the right decision. My Brother-In-Law was and is the Pastor there. That was 2 years ago and we haven’t heard a word from them since or from anyone else there. We have reached out to them and others with no response. Like I said, we made the right decision! We weren’t in sin when we left but even if we were, whatever happened to Matthew 18?
I can only speak from personal experience. Though I have some major issues with my pastor and his style of leadership and ecclesiology, and he is well aware of them, I have never been shunned. He is very gracious towards me (as are the elders) we just regard the other to be in error. I don’t see this as a cause for unity, though, when doctrine slides and ecumenism rises. But do you think their might be a possibility that blood, being thicker than water, has tainted your fellowship with your brother? It certainly seems to be the case in the macrocosm of Calvary Chapel Association.
I have to ask you which one. I think you are lying. Sorry…
I have to ask you which one.
Thank God you got out…
Edwitness is right, the polar opposite seems to be the fever now. I d, however, remember that there was a feeling to me, just a feeling, hearing the fellowship chatter, when I first started attending that this church thought they had “it”. “It” being sold doctrine, the move of the Holy Spirit, yada yada. Now though it’s anything but exclusive… NAR, Catholicism, Mormons, etc.
Edwitness and Jared,
I can’t speak for all CCs, only the one I left due to doctrinal disagreement. If someone leaves only because he is moving to a new location, then there isn’t a problem. In fact, the pastor will give you info about the CCs in your new location. But I’m not the only one who has been treated poorly for asking doctrinal questions and then leaving. I’ve heard the accounts of many people who have had horrendous cult-like experiences.
Now, this was under a pastor who had been with Chuck since the mid-70s, so he was loyal to Chuck to the core. I do see a difference in some of the younger CC pastors. They are not so exclusivist and loyal to Chuck.
And, now, as Jerod has pointed out, it seems like “anything goes.” Now, we see many CC pastors bringing in all kinds of heresy and linking up with other ministries that would have been frowned upon back in the day.
Hey berlorac , I posted twice to try to remove that “lying” comment since that was rude. I apologize. It just sounds odd and I would have thought the CCOF board would have been all over that.
Jerod, no problem…
I know it sounds unbelievable, but that’s the way that particular CC viewed it. We were given the illustration of a tent with tent pegs. That little CC was the tent – the body – and each of us “members” was a tent peg. We were told that if you didn’t perform the tasks that you were assigned, the tent would be unstable. But if you were to leave the fellowship (under less than ideal terms), the tent would collapse. You would cause harm to the body and you better pray that God help you once you leave. Such was the guilt trip laid on those who ever questioned anything.
There was no recognition on the part of that CC that there was a larger Body to which we all belonged. For them, it was all about their tent. There were exceptions made for those who were moving and planned on attending another CC, but for those who were leaving CC altogether, it could be brutal.
I know many people who stayed only because they were made to feel guilty for thinking about leaving. One person I know, who had come to CC after leaving a Foursquare church, began to question things when I spoke out. I ended up leaving, but that person stayed because of the guilt. And there are many others.
Other CCs operate differently, I know. Some are worse, some are better. Aside from the one I attended for two years, I’ve visited 4 other CCs while out on the road as a missionary. Only one of those was truly welcoming. At the same time, I’ve visited many Baptist and other churches in my travels and was showered with love every time. The worse experience I ever had was in a CC in ___ . Well, I won’t say the state because that would narrow it down too much… The point is, I’m not lying 🙂
This is exactly how chuck smith and brian broderson treat the ones that follow the apostles teachings about the doctrine of Grace ( you call Calvinism, it makes it sound like that John Calvin that started this doctrine. John Calvin and the Reformers made everybody aware what the apostles teachings from the Bible was,and they pointed out the heresy that was taught in the Catholic Church.
It would CC Pastors some good if they sincerely try to understand what the apostles taught about the doctrines of Grace. There would not so much false teachings, let me correct it there would not be so many ignorant teaching going on, because these pastors just learn by hear-say. They never try to study it.
Brian Broderson is so uninformed about the doctrine of Grace. And he is the one that says that Catholics are Christians. This makes me believe that he does not know what a Christian is. Brian broderson has to ask The Lord to give him the understanding of the doctrine of Grace.
Kinda going through some cognitive dissonance in my own CC right now… :-/
Hey Jerod, see my post above. I just replied to you there. I’m sorry to hear about your troubles. I’m praying for you, brother. Be led by the Spirit…
Thanks for your graciousness. God bless you
I was thinking the exact same thing as I read the article. I have witnessed this firsthand and have met with many who have experienced the same thing over several years. I was an eldee and ordained by the CC I was a part of and yet when my wife and friends raised questions about certain practices, we found ourselves on the outside looking in and people were told they were not permitted to talk to us.
I myself was blind to this practice until it happened to me and my family. Once my eyes were opened, I became painfully aware of this being a “normal” practice.
Mike, I’m sorry to hear that you and your wife have gone through this. I know for me it was a time of growth. I turned to the Lord and dug into His Word more than before. He uses adversity to grow us if we yield to Him. I hope that this is what He has done for you, too.
Our identity is in Christ. When we suffer, we count it all joy.
I’ve been involved with several Calvary plants and established Churches and NEVER heard such things happening to those who chose to leave. I don’t want to say that this has never happened to someone, but it is NOT the norm from the 28 years I have been in the movement. I know we may be further removed from the California movement, but in the two states and 6 plus fellowships we’ve been associated with including the one my husband planted, we loved and continued to love those who left our fellowships. I have found that most who do leave are the ones who chose to talk and try to cause division. It happens with any church. It is not unique to Calvary. People leave fellowships for different reasons. We just recently had someone leave who was upset about our position on the pre-trib rapture and teaching from the NKJ version of the Bible. They tried to make a case with several in the body who thankfully knew why they believed what they believed and weren’t swayed. Generally, if you don’t like what someone is teaching, then leave. What is the problem with that? If I don’t like what the pentecostals are teaching, then do I stay and try to get them to my side, or leave? If something is a sin issue, then you take the matter to the elders and then the church. But if it isn’t a sin issue, then it is best to leave the matter with the Lord. I have watched a Calvary go through a sin issue with the pastor and it was a long drawn out matter, but God eventually worked it out. Yes, sheep were hurt, but that is what happens when people sin. I don’t think this is unique to Calvary and to single out this movement is sin in my eyes. I really think you need to reconsider whether it is sin and gossip to continue to cast accusations on a movement that has brought the exposition of the Word of God back to the sheep.
I appreciate your remarks and I’m sure are true. But as stated before, I have seen first hand where Matthew 18 is not practiced. I’m not slamming CC but it’s true. In fact, I still go to a Thurs. morning CC study. If a question was asked, depending on the question (CC philosophies ) for example, you better start looking for a new Church. A very close friend of mine was sent a text from their friend stating that because they no longer attended CC that they couldn’t have that fellowship anymore. What kind of Christianity is that? In fact my own family went to visit a CC and won’t go back because of the unfriendliness. Not all CC are like that but EVERY CC or any other churches should set the example. It all starts with the Pastor!
I’m not sure that is true. When I read what had transpired with Roger I remember being more than a little surprised he was just running into this, it almost seemed like he thought it wasn’t there until he took his stands and wrote those two books.
Dwight Douville seems to have had issues after working on things he sees wrong since Chuck’s death.
Some CC Pastors were doing their own thing and running over people long before Chuck even became ill, long before.
Many times Chuck was aware of problems but spiritualized them, leaving it to God to reprove or remove, sometimes he stepped in.
Surely you can see the seeds of what is happening were in the ground almost from the beginning.
Can anyone really make a biblical case for the polity that Chuck taught? Justin tried with a paper he wrote but it doesn’t pass the discernment test.
How true! I’ve seen from first hand experience that when you leave CC, either on your own or asked to leave, you are pretty much ex-communicated. Matthew 18:15-17 is taught but not practiced.
Yes, I agree with this. Had a new pastor come and clear out the church members saying maybe you would be happier somewhere else. It felt like he just wanted our building. He really hurt a lot of members. On the positive side, he is teaching the word and broke the church off from Big Calvary.
I have been listening to chucks 3000 serise i am currently in Hebrews having gone straight threw. I have attended the past 3 east coast pastors conferences. I know little about Broderson. I have never heard any of this. I tend not to believe it. I am not saying there are not issues.
berlorac I have read chucks books and read his devotional. I heave never hear him say the stuff you are quoting. In fact usually the opposite.
I hope people due there research and don’t buy all this. Calvary’s are doing a lot of good. We as the Church don’t need more division.
Berlorac is correct. Chuck Smith was ecumenical and was wrong on a lot of things.
Foo4ever, do you still have Chuck’s books? Perhaps you could re-read them. Do you have access to his sermons? Perhaps you could re-listen to the ones given on the dates I’ve listed above. Unless those books have been reprinted without those quotes, and unless those sermons have been removed or edited, you can read/hear for yourself.
As far as CCs “doing a lot of good,” who cares? There are hundreds of churches and organizations “doing a lot of good.” There are atheists who do “good works,” the Mormons do “good works,” the Masons do “good works.” What you should be concerned about is the doctrine.
Division is necessary. I think we should say we are dividing. If God can remove his presence from a congregation then we are simply being removed by His hand. The question is From whom are you dividing? God or hirelings?
Jerod – you nailed it. Paul challenged Peter PUBLICLY when the truth of the gospel was at stake. We must do the same in order to protect the precious flock. We must never protect men from their own words. Only the scriptures are true.
Thank you! TRUTH
Amen, now that Chich is gone the wolves are attacking!
JB, I and many others came to see Chuck’s doctrinal errors long before he died, but what’s alarming about your comment is that you are saying anyone who disagrees with Chuck is a wolf — that is, an unbeliever. May God have mercy on you, JB.
It’s true. I talked to Chuck’s brother when he was trying to keep this stuff out of Calvary and Broderson fired him when Broaderson made the resolution in a board meeting. Chuck Jr. and Chris Fromm are also emergent.
This is the 1978 book Berlorac was referencing:
https://www.amazon.com/End-Times-Report-Future-Survival/dp/0893370118
Catholics are the original Christians. History shows that, and the only Christian church that has been around for 2,000 years.
What’s happening at Calvary Chapel is predictable because it is based on a cult of personality, and the death of the leader means disintegration. Rick Warren’s church will eventually splinter too. That is the history and modus operandi of Protestantism.
Not so the Catholic Church, the Church that Jesus founded she He said to Peter, “you are Peter (rock) and on this rock I will build MY church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.”
Come home separated brothers and sisters!
Come out of her Maris.
Catholicism didn’t exist for over 300 years after Jesus. Catholicism is a cult that leads to eternal torment in the lake of fire, because it teaches works for salvation, which cannot save (Galatians 1:6-9). True salvation cannot include any works (Romans 4:5). So you are wrong, Maris.
Catholicism is a religion made up by man, and it is a cult of the popes, and every pope is a false prophet.
Roman Catholicism is a false teaching. The Reformation happened because the Roman Catholic Church is filth! I’m certain that people can become born again if they are attending a Roman Catholic Church, but I think they have to wade through all the garbage first.
When Jesus stated “upon this rock I will build my church” He was referring to Himself, not Peter. Jesus is our foundation, not Peter or anyone else.
Come out of the Harlot church of Revelation 17.
As far as Matt Chandler goes, what is wrong with what he preaches?
If it wasn’t for John Calvin and the Reformers we all would be Roman Catholics. Thank God for the Reformers
Maris, you’re deluded. If you honestly want to know the foundation of Romanism, don’t look to Peter. Look to Constantinople and Augustine………Romanism had its roots in the Roman Empire, not in the primitive church. Like I said, if you honestly want to find out for yourself, with no bias, there is plenty of material for you to research. The problem with most RC is that the brainwashing starts at an early age, and if not for the grace of God it’s almost impossible to come out of that system.
Catholicism is the continuation of the original post-Noah satanism, started by Noah’s grandson Nimrod and his wife Semiramis. Nimrod is represented bybthe sun which is all over catholic architecture, dress and in the mass(the monstrance and host). After Nimrod died Semiramis alleges that she had a virgin son, Tammuz, who was allegedly Nimrod reincarnated. The statutes of Mary holding baby “Jesus” is really Semiramis holding Tammuz, and the higher level catholics know it. The giant Obelisks in DC and Rome represent the phallice of Nimrod, while the domes across from them )US capital building, St. Peters) represent the pregnant womb of Semiramis.
The catholics hate people who read the Bible and have murdered tens of thousands of Bible translators and readers over the centuries. They worship men, women and Lucifer…not Jesus Christ. They reinstitute the law Jesus abolished in his body on the cross, and they deny the Bible with their rules. They have also brilliantly destroyed the Bibles almost all americans read from the inside.
Sola Sceiptura,
An amazing accounting for the true underpinnings of the Roman whore. Thank you for the enlightening information. If only they could break through the chains that have them bound to the lie that is Catholicism.
Blessings to you for telling them :-}
The Fuel Project, in their YouTube series “Know Your Enemy,” went into a lot of this history. It is a series of 77 segments you can watch online. It was eye opening to watch.
You are messed up, the Catholic church has done more evil than any so called “Christian” church. The so called mother church is from the father of lies, and gave birth to more false teachings that became know as the reformation (Luther/Calvinism) that have attacked Gods character in carrying out the original lies that began in the garden
Maris, Jesus the Lord said “I wil build my church” etc, not Peter. He was not a ROMAN Catholic either. You have embibed in the cool aid. I was an alter boy, so I know whats up-NOTHING, because The Holy Spirit does not sanction idolatrous worship. Revelation 13 talks of the beast and his false prophet which all protestants agree is the Pope. Bro Chuck never readily admitted so, but defered his answer to Dave Hunt (when asked about the catholic church) and Billy Graham (when asked about the Pope). That was not right, just like you also to the exclusion of The Lord Jesus, who is ALWAYS right and WILL definitely build HIS church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it……..
What deception, after that Jesus said to Peter, get behind me Satan you are an offense. He also told Peter when he repented, to strengthen his brothers.
Never met a Catholic that wasn’t messed up from guilt, fear and need to confess sins to man instead of God.
No such thing as a Catholic in the word if God. People worshipping from house to house, and Jewish temples.
I had a prominent pastor from CC tell me in Feb of 2014…”I know we practice paganism, if you don’t like it you can leave.” Even his associate pastor was taken aback by the comment…and you wonder why the churches are circuses…https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/FearYaweh77/paganism-48522938?qid=d1f6ce63-ce45-49cd-af7e-78ddb0d42d15&v=&b=&from_search=3
You are a liar, or the pastor was not really of CC!
http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html
“Answer: The Roman Catholic Church contends that its origin is the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ in approximately AD 30. The Catholic Church proclaims itself to be the church that Jesus Christ died for, the church that was established and built by the apostles. Is that the true origin of the Catholic Church? On the contrary. Even a cursory reading of the New Testament will reveal that the Catholic Church does not have its origin in the teachings of Jesus or His apostles. In the New Testament, there is no mention of the papacy, worship/adoration of Mary (or the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix), petitioning saints in heaven for their prayers, apostolic succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture. So, if the origin of the Catholic Church is not in the teachings of Jesus and His apostles, as recorded in the New Testament, what is the true origin of the Catholic Church?
For the first 280 years of Christian history, Christianity was banned by the Roman Empire, and Christians were terribly persecuted. This changed after the “conversion” of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Constantine provided religious toleration with the Edict of Milan in AD 313, effectively lifting the ban on Christianity. Later, in AD 325, Constantine called the Council of Nicea in an attempt to unify Christianity. Constantine envisioned Christianity as a religion that could unite the Roman Empire, which at that time was beginning to fragment and divide. While this may have seemed to be a positive development for the Christian church, the results were anything but positive. Just as Constantine refused to fully embrace the Christian faith, but continued many of his pagan beliefs and practices, so the Christian church that Constantine promoted was a mixture of true Christianity and Roman paganism.
Constantine found that, with the Roman Empire being so vast, expansive, and diverse, not everyone would agree to forsake his or her religious beliefs to embrace Christianity. So, Constantine allowed, and even promoted, the “Christianization” of pagan beliefs. Completely pagan and utterly unbiblical beliefs were given new “Christian” identities. Some clear examples of this are as follows:
(1) The Cult of Isis, an Egyptian mother-goddess religion, was absorbed into Christianity by replacing Isis with Mary. Many of the titles that were used for Isis, such as “Queen of Heaven,” “Mother of God,” and theotokos (“God-bearer”) were attached to Mary. Mary was given an exalted role in the Christian faith, far beyond what the Bible ascribes to her, in order to attract Isis worshippers to a faith they would not otherwise embrace. Many temples to Isis were, in fact, converted into temples dedicated to Mary. The first clear hints of Catholic Mariology occur in the writings of Origen, who lived in Alexandria, Egypt, which happened to be the focal point of Isis worship.
(2) Mithraism was a religion in the Roman Empire in the 1st through 5th centuries AD. It was very popular among the Romans, especially among Roman soldiers, and was possibly the religion of several Roman emperors. While Mithraism was never given “official” status in the Roman Empire, it was the de facto official religion until Constantine and succeeding Roman emperors replaced Mithraism with Christianity. One of the key features of Mithraism was a sacrificial meal, which involved eating the flesh and drinking the blood of a bull. Mithras, the god of Mithraism, was “present” in the flesh and blood of the bull, and when consumed, granted salvation to those who partook of the sacrificial meal (this is known as theophagy, the eating of one’s god). Mithraism also had seven “sacraments,” making the similarities between Mithraism and Roman Catholicism too many to ignore. Church leaders after Constantine found an easy substitute for the sacrificial meal of Mithraism in the concept of the Lord’s Supper/Christian communion. Even before Constantine, some early Christians had begun to attach mysticism to the Lord’s Supper, rejecting the biblical concept of a simple and worshipful remembrance of Christ’s death and shed blood. The Romanization of the Lord’s Supper made the transition to a sacrificial consumption of Jesus Christ, now known as the Catholic Mass/Eucharist, complete.
(3) Most Roman emperors (and citizens) were henotheists. A henotheist is one who believes in the existence of many gods, but focuses primarily on one particular god or considers one particular god supreme over the other gods. For example, the Roman god Jupiter was supreme over the Roman pantheon of gods. Roman sailors were often worshippers of Neptune, the god of the oceans. When the Catholic Church absorbed Roman paganism, it simply replaced the pantheon of gods with the saints. Just as the Roman pantheon of gods had a god of love, a god of peace, a god of war, a god of strength, a god of wisdom, etc., so the Catholic Church has a saint who is “in charge” over each of these, and many other categories. Just as many Roman cities had a god specific to the city, so the Catholic Church provided “patron saints” for the cities.
(4) The supremacy of the Roman bishop (the papacy) was created with the support of the Roman emperors. With the city of Rome being the center of government for the Roman Empire, and with the Roman emperors living in Rome, the city of Rome rose to prominence in all facets of life. Constantine and his successors gave their support to the bishop of Rome as the supreme ruler of the church. Of course, it is best for the unity of the Roman Empire that the government and state religion be centralized. While most other bishops (and Christians) resisted the idea of the Roman bishop being supreme, the Roman bishop eventually rose to supremacy, due to the power and influence of the Roman emperors. When the Roman Empire collapsed, the popes took on the title that had previously belonged to the Roman emperors—Pontifex Maximus.
Many more examples could be given. These four should suffice in demonstrating the origin of the Catholic Church. Of course, the Roman Catholic Church denies the pagan origin of its beliefs and practices. The Catholic Church disguises its pagan beliefs under layers of complicated theology and “church tradition.” Recognizing that many of its beliefs and practices are utterly foreign to Scripture, the Catholic Church is forced to deny the authority and sufficiency of Scripture.
The origin of the Catholic Church is the tragic compromise of Christianity with the pagan religions that surrounded it. Instead of proclaiming the gospel and converting the pagans, the Catholic Church “Christianized” the pagan religions, and “paganized” Christianity. By blurring the differences and erasing the distinctions, yes, the Catholic Church made itself attractive to the people of the Roman Empire. One result was the Catholic Church becoming the supreme religion in the Roman world for centuries. However, another result was the most dominant form of Christianity apostatizing from the true gospel of Jesus Christ and the true proclamation of God’s Word.
Second Timothy 4:3–4 declares, “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”
It is great to have the Pastor make his stand against such compromise! Surely Chuck Smith would be sad at C.C’s present direction and proud of the pastor’s stand! This is the day of great apostacy.
Roger Oakland posted a video of the 2012 or 13 CC Pastor’s conference, in which the three amigos (Coy, Laurie, and Brodersen) were asked who b would people consider to be the Pope of CC. After about 10 minutes of comic relief from the peanut gallery, it took Chuck, obviously in poor health, to remind every pastor in the room who the real Pope of CC and and church really is Jesus Christ.
In Chuck Smith’s book, “Answers for Today” (1993), he wrote,
[Paul points out that some say, “I’m of Paul,” while others say, “I’m of Apollos.” He asked, “Isn’t that carnal?” But what’s the difference between saying that or saying, “I’m a Baptist,” “I’m a Presbyterian,” “I’m a Methodist,” “I’m a Catholic”? I have found that the more spiritual a person becomes, the less denominational he is. We should realize that we’re all part of the Body of Christ and that there aren’t any real divisions in the Body. We’re all one.
What a glorious day when we discover that God loves the Baptists! – And the Presbyterians, and the Methodists, and the Catholics. We’re all His and we all belong to Him. We see the whole Body of Christ, and we begin to strive together rather than striving against one another.]
Read it on page 157. Then, combine that quote with the following from his radio show:
http://apprising.org/2012/01/14/the-coming-roman-catholic-denomination-and-chuck-smith-of-calvary-chapel/
I understand that Chuck often flip-flopped, so some people may have heard him separate Catholicism from Christianity. But, overall, he has a history of confirming Catholicism as Christian.
He flip-flopped on date-setting, as well. In 1978, he published his prediction of a 1981 Rapture, but when asked about date-setting in 1996 (KWVE radio show Dec. 27), he denied ever setting a date.
One thing he never flip-flopped on was his belief that our bodies will not be resurrected physically.
Folks, do your homework. I know it’s easy to shoot the messenger and walk away with your hands over your ears, but is that the Biblical thing to do?
yes.you all worship god of abraham and all continue spread ‘true religion” in the world.
Amen B,
We are called to be Bereans, not take any man’s word as the Gospels, there’s plenty of evidence, but people do not like their idols toppled. Smith, McArthur, Warren……people come out like rabid wolves when one of these icons is rebuked or corrected! At the end of the day, we answer to Jesus, not man!
When Jesus says, ‘You are Peter” in Greek it is you are petros. Petros is a masculine noun which means a small stone or pebble. What Jesus is saying here is that, Peter, you are a small stone or pebble, just like that stones and pebbles in this stream here. When Jesus states “upon this rock I will build My church’, this is a different word which is ‘Petra’. This is a Greek feminine noun which means massive cliff rock. It would be comparable to the cliff face overshadowing the place they were standing at in that day. The simple rules of Greek grammar are that a masculine modifies a masculine and a feminine modifies a feminine, a neuter modifies a neuter. What you cannot have is a feminine modifying a masculine or vice versa. That is not the way Greek grammar works.
So, grammatically is cannot possibly mean that the church is built upon Peter. Rather, Jesus is contrasting Peter with his own statement. “Peter, you are a small stone like the ones in this stream. But upon the massive cliff rock of which you are cut out, I will build my church”. He is also presupposing a very important Old Testament symbol. Whenever the word rock is used symbolically it is always a symbol of the Messiah throughout the Old Testament. So the church is not being built upon Peter but upon the Messiah, more specifically about what Peter just said about the Messiah. “You are THE Messiah, THE Son of THE God, The Living One”. It is upon that confession of Peter that the church is being built. Of course when they were speaking it was not originally Greek but Hebrew at the time. As for the Hebrew equivalents, ‘petro’s is ‘evan’ and ‘petra’ is ‘sella’. They are Hebrew equivalents to these two Greek words since they would have been speaking Hebrew not Greek.
Then Jesus makes a third point in the second half of verse 18, ‘the gate of hades will not prevail against it’. Again, Jesus is falling back on a very common Old Testament figure. The ‘Gates of Hades’ was an Old Testament statement or idiom for death. You can find it in a number of places in the Old Testament (i.e. Ps 9:13, Ps 107:18, Job 38:17, Is 38:10, Jonah 2:6). ‘Upon this rock I will build My church’ meaning physical death will not be able to destroy either His death or subsequently the death of the apostles. Keeping in mind that according to Eph 2, that church that was built upon the New Testament apostles and prophets with the Messiah being the chief cornerstone. His death or their death affected to them by their enemies will not destroy what it to be built.
Can we take your word for it? Surely you see your self defeating logic. If we trust what you have written we have ignored what you have written. Quite the critical thinker eh?
1. Jesus gave Peter and ONLY Peter the “Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven”
2. Protestant Greek scholars reject your Exegesis of Matt 18.
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/protestant-scholars-agree-peter-is-the-rock-in-matthew-16-18.3048987/
3. You say that Petros and Petra are the Greek translations for evan and sella but there is just one problem. When Jesus renamed Simon He did not rename him “sella” and He did not name him “evan” He renamed him KEPHA or “Cephas” which literally means “Rock” not pebble . As I am sure you are aware Paul did not know Jesus in the flesh and everything that Paul knew was passed to him supernaturally by Jesus on the road to Damascus. Paul refers to Peter as “Cephas” not “evan” and not “sella”. Also your “explanation” of Greek grammar is completely false.
4. In (Luke 22:32) the Apostles begin to argue with eachother about which of them is the greatest and Jesus interrupts them and says to Peter
“Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you like wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith will not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”
Notice Jesus says this to Peter (in front of all of the other Apostles) at the exact moment that they are arguing over which of them is to be called the greatest. Notice Jesus tells ALL of the Apostles that He has prayed for Peter (and Peter alone) Notice Jesus tells ALL of the Apostles that Peter (and Peter alone) will strengthen them.
5. Whenever the 12 Apostles are mentioned in the Bible Peter is ALWAYS mentioned first.
6. In (1 Cor 10:4) Paul refers to Jesus as “Petra”, is Jesus referring to Himself when He says “Petra” in Matt 18?
7. Petros occurs 156 times in the NT and EVERY single time it is referring to Peter. Not once is it referring to a pebble or a small stone.
8. The Greek word for “pebble” is Tseror not Kepha.
9. Jesus appears to Peter first before He appears to the other Apostles.
You should stop cutting and pasting false Exegesis that even Protestant scholars reject.
snooop1e,
In answer to your statement “Notice Jesus tells ALL of the Apostles that Peter (and Peter alone) will strengthen them.”
Firstly, Jesus said that to Peter. Not ALL of the apostles. Secondly, this does not mean what you infer it does.
Here is the passage.
22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!
23 And they began to enquire among themselves, which of them it was that should do this thing.
Here there is a change of subject between vs23 and 24. What comes next has nothing to do with what has been said in these past verses.
24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest. (This is the subject in these verses)
25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Here between vs30 and 31 there is another change of subject back to Jesus’ original discussion in vs22,23.
Jesus has just told them all that there would be no hierarchy the way there is with Gentiles. Those who exercise leadership and are called their benefactors. He tells them that they would be co laborers as Jesus’ apostles. With Jesus as the only leader. They would serve one another. No king but King Jesus.
What Jesus tells Peter next in vs31-ff is not a confirmation of Peter’s leadership. If it was Jesus would be contradicting what He just said in vs25,26.
Here Jesus will return to what He was saying before the argument started. Vs24-30 is a parenthesis.
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.
34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.
35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
Jesus has just encouraged Peter so that he would understand that, while Jesus knew his weaknesses, and that he was still in need of conversion, and possibly because Peter was the most adamant about what he believed his place to be as the leader, Peter would still be an integral part of the ministry of the apostles even after denying Jesus 3 times.
The last thing Jesus was trying to tell Peter is that he was the head of the apostles and as such he was specially gifted to strengthen them.
Remember Jesus told all of them “Ye shall not be so.” Vs26. The church Jesus was leaving to them to make to flourish was not going to have a gov’t anything like they had ever known before. This one would have a head/leader that could not be seen with natural eyes. While all of the rest of the body, which included the apostles, would be co laborers with one another.
And this would not be the last time Peter would be put in his place. Paul had to do this when he was siding with the Judaisers in Gal.2:11.
In these verses, 31-ff, there is a return to the context of vs22,23.
There is not a single protestant that would agree with you that Jesus gave Peter leadership of the apostles. Or the church for that matter. Either here or in Mt.16. In fact, there is great opposition to that idea throughout the protestant church.
“There is not a single protestant that would agree with you that Jesus gave Peter leadership of the apostles.”
That is not true. There are many renowned Protestant Greek and Hebtew scholars who reject your interpretation of the Bible.
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/protestant-scholars-agree-peter-is-the-rock-in-matthew-16-18.3048987/
Your method of interpreting scripture is to deny the plain meaning of the words and to try to make the scriptures fit what you believe instead of making what you believe fit the scriptures.
Jesus told Peter and the Apostles that Satan wished to have ALL of them but He ONLY prayed for Peters faith and He commanded Peter and ONLY Peter to strengthen the other Apostles. All of your contortions and deconstruction of scripture can never change this simple fact. It’s sad to see you continually work so hard to deny Jesus plain words just to push your beliefs.
If Jesus had said these things to Paul you would no doubt say it is proof that Jesus singled Paul out as a leader.
Most of what you have been taught is based on a perversion of Paul’s letters taken completely out of context and makes Paul contradict Jesus clear teachings in the Gospels.
You think that Paul’s words illuminate Jesus and you read Jesus words in the light of Paul’s teachings but this is backwards, Jesus is the Master not Paul. You should be understanding Paul in the light of Jesus not making Paul contradict Jesus. This is sinful.
Have you noticed that all of your “explanations” of scripture involve you explaining away the plain meaning of the verses and struggling to convince people that Jesus didn’t actually mean what He said? And your sole (soul) reason for doing so is to try to make the Bible fit what you have been taught.
The Bible warns us about misinterpreting Paul’s letters (2 Peter 3:16) and tells us that ignorant and unstable people will distort them to their own destruction teaching lawless salvation. The Bible also warns us not to fall from our secure position (salvation in Jesus)
2 Peter 3:16
His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.
You have been warned, the choice is yours, you can continue in your rebellion against keeping Gods commandments and continue teeching people that they can sin against God and still inherit eternal life or you can repent and spread the good news that salvation is possible through obeying the Gospel. The choice is yours, I pray you choose to make Jesus your Lord and not just call Him Lord (Matt 7:21-23)… Repent and obey the Gospel, the kingdom of God is at hand.
In the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus,
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
snooop1e,
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments” Who was Jesus speaking to when He said this? And which covenant were they under? Are we today under the same covenant as they were?
Answer those questions correctly and you will be at least part of the way to a correct understanding of how we receive salvation today.
“Who was Jesus speaking to when He said this?”
Jesus is speaking to all of humanity. Jesus is speakong to You, to me and to everyone who reads the Bible.
Again you try to deny Jesus plain words in order to cling to your father’s doctrines.
You try to twist scripture to say that Jesus is not speaking to you. Jesus followers hear his voice and listen. The rebellious heart says “Jesus is not speaking to me, He is speaking to those sinners over there.” Jesus is speaking to everyone, will you listen or will you walk away like the disciples in John 6:66?
Open the eyes of your heart, those who have ears let them hear. Rejecting God’s commandments is not the narrow path to eternal life it is the wide path to ruin. Why do you reject the keeping of God’s commandments?
“And which covenant were they under?”
Jesus said He did not come to abolish God’s law but to obey it. Jesus was very clear that the New Covenant does not abolish one dot or one tittle of God’s perfect law.
“Are we today under the same covenant as they were?”
Again you create a false dichotomy not taught by Jesus. The New Covenant does not abolish God’s commandments. The New Covenant dies not free us TO sin it frees us FROM sin. You obviously do not comprehend the profound and eternal difference between saying you love Jesus and actually loving Jesus.
John 14:15
If you love me, obey my commandments.
It’s as simple as 1…2…3
1 John 2:3
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
“Answer those questions correctly and you will be at least part of the way to a correct understanding of how we receive salvation”
1 John 2:4
If someone claims, “I know God,” but doesn’t obey God’s commandments, that person is a liar and is not living in the truth.
I pray you repent, stop lying and live in the truth. Every
that does not bear fruit will be separated and thrown into the fire.
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
snooop1e,
You can’t even understand a secular history book with that kind of hermeneutics. Let alone a book that requires the reader to be spiritually alive and led by the Spirit of God.
No wonder you can’t understand what you are reading. Context matters.
When Jesus was alive on the earth He was an Israelite under the law speaking to Israelites under the law. Mt.15:24- “But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” This was Jesus’ earthly ministry. That’s why He said to the woman that the food meant for the children (Israel) was not meant for dogs (Gentiles).
His teaching to them was according to the law. Because both He and they were under the law. The Old Testament. The New Testament was not in effect until after Jesus’ resurrection. Heb.9:15-17.
We are not under the law. Rom.6:14- “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.”
So He speaks to us in a very different way. In a way that speaks unconditionally. And He does so through a man that understood the law better than any of his peers. That is why Jesus chose Paul to speak His truth to the Gentiles. To all who were not of Israel. Paul knew the pitfalls of an adherence to law keeping being mixed with faith. He said it made faith “void”. Rom.4:14- “14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:” If we make the promise of none effect through an adherence to the law, then we can not be saved.
Then you say “Jesus said He did not come to abolish God’s law but to obey it. Jesus was very clear that the New Covenant does not abolish one dot or one tittle of God’s perfect law.”
Yes, and He finished that thought by saying that not one jot or tiddle shall pass from the law TILL all of it is fulfilled. MT.5:18 The question for you is then, Did Jesus fulfill the law? The answer is found in vs17. He said He came to fulfill it. I believe the scripture is clear that He indeed did all that He was sent to do. Including the fulfilling of the law.
And Paul said the law WAS in fact abolished. Eph.2:15- “Having ABOLISHED in his flesh the enmity, even the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;”
So you are in direct opposition to the scriptures on both counts.
Then you said “The New Covenant dies not free us TO sin it frees us FROM sin.”
I could not agree with this statement more. But, this happens as a result of Jesus abolishing the law. Not having the church continue under it.
Rom.7 gives the perfect picture of the man who tries to continue under the law and serve Jesus at the same time. In vs1-4 Paul shows that the person that does this is an adulterer. Then in vs6 Paul says that we are delivered from the law. “But now we are DELIVERED FROM THE LAW, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”
The rest of the chapter describes the results of the person that continues under the law. Not good.
The law did it’s job. It kept (gaurded) Israel TILL faith came. Gal.3:23
As I predicted you run to Paul (2 Peter 3:16) and constantly quote Paul for your salvation. Why do you constantly quote Paul but never quote Jesus?. Paul is not our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is. Jesus said He did not abolish the law but you quote Paul and suggest that Paul contradicts Jesus. Was Paul crucified for you? We’re you Baptised in the name of Paul? (1Cor 1:13) Why do put Paul above Jesus and place your faith in Paul?
You clearly do not understand what it means to be “under the law”. If you obey the speed limit on the freeway you have nothing to fear from the law (you are not under the law) only lawbreakers are subject to the law and fear the law, conversely those who truly love God and obey God’s perfect law have nothing to fear from the law and therefore are not “under the law”. You should repent and stop condemning God’s perfect law.
“We are not under the law”
Only those who obey the law are not “under the law”. Everyone who disobeys God’s perfect law lives in fear of God’s law and is “under” God’s law. It’s a very simple principle. Your rebellious heart has cut you off from God’s grace. You deny that God’s law is perfect so your understanding of God and His will is perverted. Tell me, tell God, which of God’s commands is impossible for you to obey with Christ in you? Why are you so obsessed with denying God’s perfect law? What sin do you love more than Jesus?
“For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.”
Precisely, SIN SHALL NOT HAVE DOMINION OVER YOU. because you reject the keeping of God’s perfect law you have cut yourself off from God’s grace. You have been taught that you can sin freely and still call yourself a “follower of Christ” and inherit eternal life. This belief cuts you off from God’s loving grace. Without God’s grace you have no hope for keeping His commands and you remain “under the law” instead of rising above it. Until you repent and accept the truth that God’s law is perfect you will remain under the law . Why do you hate God’s perfect law?
“Paul knew the pitfalls of an adherence to law keeping being mixed with faith.”
Notice that you never say “God’s law” Your rebellious heart has cut you off from God’s grace. Why do you reject the keeping of God’s perfect law? Why do you quote Paul but never quote Jesus?
Eph 5:5
For of this YOU CAN BE SURE No immoral, impure or greedy person–such a person is an idolater–HAS ANY INHERITANCE IN THE KINGDOM OF CHRIST AND OF GOD. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
Paul warns the believers in Rome
Rom 2:6-7
God “WILL REPAY EVERYONE ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS.” To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, HE WILL GIVE ETERNAL LIFE.
Rom 2:13
It is not those who hear the law who are righteous in Gods sight IT IS THOSE WHO OBEY THE LAW who WILL BE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS.
Paul warns the believers in Galatia,
Gal 5:19
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I WARN YOU, as I did before, that those who live like this WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
Paul warns the believers in Corinth,
1 Cor 6:9
Do you not know that the WICKED WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who perform homosexual acts,nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God
Paul warns the believers in Jerusalem,
Heb 10:26
If we deliberately keep on sinning AFTER we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of RAGING FIRE that will consume the enemies of God…THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE…It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
“He said it made faith “VOID”
No he did not, that is your sinful heart imposing your beliefs on scripture. The Bible warns us (2 Peter 3:16) that Pauls letters are difficult to understand and ignorant and unstable people will twist them to their own destruction (eternal damnation) teaching lawlessness. The Bible also warns us not to fall for this lawless salvation doctrine lest we fall from our “secure position” (the only secure position in this life is salvation through Christ)
“Did Jesus fulfill the law?”
You think that “fulfill” means Jesus obeyed God so that we no longer have to. Again your sinful heart struggles to accept God’s perfect law, like your father’s before you, you deny God’s perfect law. I ask you again, which of God’s commandments is impossible for you to obey with Christ in you?
“And Paul said the law WAS in fact abolished.”
Once again you fulfill the prophecy of scripture (2 Peter 3:16) and pit Paul (the servant) against Jesus (the Master) in order to teach your lawless salvation doctrine. Our Lord Jesus said He did not abolish God’s law so any teaching that contradicts Jesus words is a false teaching. By pitting Paul against Jesus you sin. It’s really very simple, you quote Paul to defend your doctrines and I quote Jesus. Jesus is our Lord and Savior not Paul.
“in vs6 Paul says that we are delivered from the law.”
See above, Paul is not our Lord and Savior Jesus is.
The law did it’s job. It kept (gaurded) Israel TILL faith came. Gal.3:23
False. You claim that nobody in the Old Testament had righteous faith but that is not biblical.
Luke 1:6
Both of them were righteous in the eyes of God obeying ALL of the Lords commands and decrees blamelessly.
In accordance with the scriptures everything that you have been taught is based on the teachings of ignorant and unstable men who twist Paul’s letters to their own destruction. Trust in Jesus, Paul is the servant not the Master. Repent and obey Jesus Christ. Your salvation is not in Paul it is in Jesus Christ.
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
snooop1e,
Umm, because Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles. And I’m not an Israelite. And I’m not under law but under grace,……………. I thought I went through this with you?
Silly legalist, the law is for the wicked. Not for the righteous.
1 Tim.1:8-11
“But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
Knowing this, THAT THE LAW IS NOT MADE FOR A RIGHTEOUS MAN, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.”
All believers are righteous……….because they are believers. Rom.4:3
“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.”
This means the law is not for the Christian.
Keep writing all your loooong comments. But, they still won’t mean what you want them to. Because until you understand that the law is abolished you will not grow in the Lord. In fact if you mix the law with grace you make faith void. Does this mean you are not even saved? Hmm? I sure wouldn’t want to risk it.
“Umm, because Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles”
Umm there is ONE name by which we are saved and that name is JESUS CHRIST it is not Paul. Keep running to Paul and using Paul to cancel out Jesus explicit teachings in the Gospels. You place Paul’s words above Jesus words in the Gospels. You do so at your own peril. Repent and obey the Gospel, the kingdom of God is at hand. You still have time.
I follow Jesus not Paul. You have been taught that Paul contradicts Jesus, he does not, you simply distort Paul’s words to your own destruction teaching lawlessness. Our Lord Jesus Christ said,
Matt 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. For I tell you truly, [until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law] until everything is accomplished”
“the law is for the wicked. Not for the righteous.”
Indeed, and everyone who disobeys God’s perfect law is wicked. Only the righteous will inherit eternal life. Again you run to Paul. You fulfill the prophecy of scripture (2 Peter 3:16) the ignorant and unstable twist Paul’s letters to teach lawless salvation. You do so to your own destruction.
2 Peter 3:16
His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.
“THE LAW IS NOT MADE FOR A RIGHTEOUS MAN”
Amen, the law is made for the wicked. The speed limit is not for those who obey it, they are a law unto themselves and they have nothing to fear from the law. By obeying the law they are not subject to it. Only law breakers are subject to the penalty of the law, only those who break the law are “under the law” only the wicked and the lawless are under the law. Your rebellious heart has blinded you to the truth. Zachariah and Elizabeth were righteous BECAUSE they obeyed the commandments.
Luke 1:6
Both of them were righteous in the eyes of God obeying all of the Lords commands and decrees blamelessly.
“All believers are righteous……….because they are believers. Rom.4:3
“For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.”
Again you run to your Lord and Savior Paul and fulfill the prophecy of scripture (2 Peter 3:16) You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without works is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he DID when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. Righteousness by faith alone is a man made doctrine.
James 2:24
You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
“This means the law is not for the Christian.”
No it does not. Scripture clearly says that Christians will be judged even more harshly because by grace we KNOW the truth between right and wrong.
1 Peter 4:17
For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s people and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL OF GOD? “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”
The Bible tells us that God’s people aka the righteous aka the saints are all those who keep the commandments and keep faith in Jesus Christ.
Rev 14:12
Here is a call for the perseverance of God’s people, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
This is why your father Martin Luther wanted James and Revelation removed from the Bible. This is why your father Martin Luther said James and Revelation and Hebrews are not inspired by God and should be thrown out. Because they explicitly refute his unbiblical doctrine of “justification by faith alone”
Now run to Paul and search for another verse that you think cancels out Gods words above. You do so at your own peril.
“Keep writing all your loooong comments. But, they still won’t mean what you want them to.”
My comments are not intended for you, you have made up your mind and placed your faith in Martin Luther and Paul. My comments are for those who seek the truth of Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior.
“until you understand that the law is abolished you will not grow in the Lord.”
My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ tells me in the Bible that the law will not be abolished until heaven and earth pass away. We know that heaven is eternal so God’s perfect law will never pass away.
“In fact if you mix the law with grace you make faith void.”
In fact if you mix sin with grace you make faith void.
James 2:14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone
“Does this mean you are not even saved? Hmm? I sure wouldn’t want to risk it.”
One thing is for certain, you believe and teach others that Gods law is not perfect and salvations is possible through rejecting/disobeying God’s commandments. You refuse to answer the question “which of Gods commandments is impossible to obey” because there is no good answer. All things are possible with God who strengthens us and if you say any one of God’s perfect commandments is impossible to obey you call God a liar. So you continue in your rebellion and rejection of God’s perfect law and you compound your sin by continually running to Paul (the servant) and pitting his words AGAINST Jesus (the Master) In doing so you fulfill the prophecy of scripture (2 Peter 3:16)
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Hi Snoop1e:
Great conversation that you and Edwitness are having. I regularly discuss doctrinal differences with him, and some of the things he has said do make sense; some have helped change my beliefs; others are just plain wacky! Before I throw in my 50 cents into the discussion, I would like to point out that I am Roman Catholic to give you some sense of “where I’m coming from”. And saying that often results in some of the most absurd comments from folks posting on these forums; hopefully you know better.
You are completely right that the “justification by faith alone”, “Once saved, always saved”, and “justification by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone” doctrines are bogus and NOT what the Bible says, but was what Martin Luthor taught. One only has to go to their favorite online Bible resource website and search for “grace alone”, “faith alone”, “apart from works”, “Jesus alone”, and “Christ alone” to see what comes up, and then compare that to John 3:5 and John 3:36 and it becomes quite clear that salvation requires more than faith alone, and that’s just to begin. That one usually generates messages about the Christian denomination that I belong to teaching that salvation is by faith and works, which it doesn’t nor (I’m becoming increasingly sure) ever did, or all usually unsupported or less-than-credible cries about the rewriting of history. Those comments are always fun! Puts a smile on my face every time!
So, it’s nice to see someone posting that knows this, but there is something that you have both right and wrong. We humans routinely get the physical (or natural) confused with the spiritual. The Mosaic Covenant, which does indeed apply to the Ancient Israelites and thus the Jews, EXCEPT FOR Jewish Christians, IS a WRITTEN LAW, inspired by God but written by men, and is therefore NOT perfect. Edwitness is correct when he states that the Mosaic Covenant has never applied to Gentiles and does NOT apply to Christians. He is incorrect when he therefore states that the Mosaic Covenant is the ONLY LAW that God has ever ratified with humanity.
To me, that doesn’t make that much sense. God is very consistent in His standards and impartial to both Jew and Gentile. You seem to be saying that there being no sin imputed for those NOT under the Law means that God does NOT EXPECT us to obey the SPIRIT of the Law, rather than the letter of the Law as Jews did and do (while righteous Jews observe BOTH, which is why their faith is credited as righteousness). Check out Romans 2:6-16 and compare those verses with John 3:36, because I believe they say otherwise.
Matthew 25:13-30 speaks more directly about the Kingdom of Heaven, which is separate from the Mosaic Covenant. The man who goes on the journey is Jesus and His servants are each given “talents”, a clever play in words there, dual meaning. Yet, one of His servants is cast out into the outer darkness upon His return. Can you see the correlation? Does that sound like a Christian that enters Heaven? Remember that we’re NOT talking doctrinal differences built upon the foundation of “Christ, and Him crucified” [as per 1 Corinthians 3:10-15]. We’re talking about a Christian who is NOT dedicating the very strenghths that God gave them to use in their relationship with God [Ephesians 2:10]. Put another way, we would be saying TO GOD something along the lines of:
“Hey, God, thank you for giving me these skills I have, but I’m just going to coast here and trust in your awesome love and mercy to get into Heaven because I believe that that’s ALL you expect from me — the MINIMUM I have to do, which was to believe that you are the Son of God, God the Son, and my Lord and Saviour, and that you died on the Cross and were ressurected from the dead by God the Father to give we humans a guaranteed salvation, meaning that I don’t even have to obey you ALL my life, just so long as I continue to have faith in you, faith alone. Because, of course, once you’ve given me your grace, even you can’t withdraw it again if I turn my back on you and go “do my own thing” later in life.”
This is the same as any “tree” (Christian) that DOES NOT produce “good fruits” [Ephesians 2:10] being chopped down. It’s also what Adam and Eve chose to do in the pursuit of knowledge and their independence, their right to choose their own path. In other posts, you have likened the Christian’s relationship with God to a marriage, as has Jesus (God). If you are in love at the begining and then NEVER support and develop your relationship with your wife, how long do you think that marriage is going to last?
Stephen J S,
You said “You seem to be saying that there being no sin imputed for those NOT under the Law means that God does NOT EXPECT us to obey the SPIRIT of the Law”
The question is, what is the spirit of the law?
The answer,
Mt.22:37-40,
“Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”
What Jesus told them is that God’s kind of love is the spirit of the law.
The letter kills. 2Cor.3:6
Blessings:-}
The 2 Greatest Commandments (according to Jesus) are,
1. Love God with all of your heart, mind and strength
2. Love your neighbor
Jesus tells us that ALL of the law and the Prophets HANGS ON these 2 Commandments. Love God and Love man.
So the question is, HOW do you know you are loving God and loving man?
ANSWER:
When God gave Moses the 10 Commandments they were written on 2 stone tablets. The first stone tablet contained the Commandments that tell us HOW to love God. The second stone tablet contained the Commandments that tell us HOW to love man.
This is why Jesus said ALL of the law and ALL of the Prophets HANGS (relies on) these 2 Commands.
The 10 Commandments tell us HOW to love God and HOW to love man. If you are not keeping the 10 Commandments you can be sure that you are not loving God or you are not loving man.
God is not a respector of persons. Unlike many in this forum who try to make a separation between Jew and Gentile God makes no distinction (Gal 3:28). Under the NEW COVENANT there is no longer Jew or Greek (Rome 10:12), there is only those who are IN CHRIST (Col 3:11) .
God will judge EVERY PERSON according to their deeds. Neither Jew or Gentile gets a free pass.
Rom 2:3-7
Do you suppose, O man—that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your stubborn and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself when the day of God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. God will render to each one according to his works: to those who persist in doing good seeking glory and honor and immortality, HE WILL GIVE ETERNAL LIFE; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
If you want to KNOW that you are loving man,
1 John 5:2
By this we KNOW that we love the children of God, when we love God and OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS
If you want to KNOW that you are loving God,
1 John 5:
For this is love for God, that we KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.
It’s as simple as 1…2…3…
1 John 2:3
We know that we have come to know him IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.
God goes on to say,
1 John 2:4
Whoever says, “I know him,” but DOES NOT KEEP HIS COMMANDS IS A LIAR AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. But if anyone OBEYS GOD’S COMMANDS, LOVE FOR GOD IS TRULY MADE COMPLETE IN THEM. This is HOW we KNOW we are IN him: Whoever claims to live IN him MUST LIVE AS JESUS LIVED.
For over 10 years I have been asking Protestants “which of God’s 10 Commandments is impossible for you to obey with Christ in you?” I have never gotten an answer…
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
snooop1e,
What you have just written shows definitively that you have no idea what the love of God is or what it is to love Him or be loved by Him.
If the 10 commandments told anyone how to love God then eternal life would have come through the law. But, it absolutely did not. Gal.3:21. The works God desires from us is to believe Him. That’s all. John6:28,29.
You are as lost as any I have ever spoken with about Jesus. Even worse than most because you have believed a complete lie that has you on this works system. Stay on your works treadmill. It will take you straight to hell. I would not wish that on a worst enemy. Yet you fight tooth and nail for your right to go there.
If you do not repent from serving your idol Jesus will say to you what He said to those in Mt.7:22,23- “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? AND IN YOUR NAME DONE MANY WONDERFUL WORKS?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY.”
These did not know Jesus for the same reason you do not know Him. Because their works became iniquity because they trusted in them, and not Jesus, for their salvation. They said they did them in Jesus’ name, but Jesus said He did not know them. This is exactly who you are.
Israel isn’t the only people who are blind to the love of God. You prove that with every lie you tell here.
You should calm down and read my post again slowly, the 10 Commandments are written on 2 stone tablets. The first stone tablet has the Commandments that tell us HOW to love God. The second stone tablet tells us HOW to love man.
They are not 10 Suggestions and they are not 10 Recommendations, they are 10 COMMANDMENTS. You reject them at your own peril.
You still have not answered the questions,
1. Which of God’s 10 Commandments are impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you?
2. If 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they disagree with you and believe that you are not truly saved who is correct? You or them l? and who decides?
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
I have one important question to you, ” Why did Jesus die for you?”
You keep changing the subject, answering questions with questions and attempting to create distractions because you cannot answer the questions.
1. If 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they conclude that your doctrines and beliefs are not biblical and that you are not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
2. Which of God’s 10 Commandments is impossible to obey with Christ in us?
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Having difficulty to answer my question?
It is not a distraction it has to do with the things you said.
Predictable. You cannot answer the questions.
1. If 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and after reading the Bible agree that you believe false doctrines and are not truly saved who is right and who decides?
2. Which of God’s Commandments is impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you.
You cannot answer the questions which is why Protestantism is so divided. Over 40,000 “Bible based” Protestant churches all going by “scripture alone” as their own authority and but coming to different conclusions about what the Bible says and what is and is not “essential” for salvation.
Answer the questions, you cannot.
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Why did Jesus die for you, yes you ?????
You are so right. Couldn’t be said better. Praise The Lord, Brother.
Thank you Marinus,
But, we can take no pleasure in knowing it and telling him. The scriptures make it very clear for us that the lost choose that and will defend it to their last breath. 2Tim.3:13 and 4:3,4.
Unless they will humble themselves and hear God’s voice and turn from their idols. 1Thes.1:9
Blessings:-} Marinus
LOL.
Thank you for making my point, neither of you agree with each other about free will but you join together in disagreeing with the Catholic. Remove me from the room and you will continue to disagree with each other.
Neither of you have answered the questions. You cannot.
When 2 Christians gather in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they disagree with your doctrines/beliefs who is correct and who decides?
“If you want to enter life, keep the.commandments”
-Jesus
Edwitness responding to Marinus regarding free will,
“We are not robots programmed to go about our lives never making a real choice. It takes free will to do that. Do you choose to believe what I am telling you or not? It’s your choice and the fact that you indeed choose, manifests what is known as free will.”
But then agreeing with Marinus in order to disagree with a Catholic.
“Thank you Marinus, But, we can take no pleasure in knowing it and telling him. The scriptures make it very clear for us that the lost choose that and will defend it to their last breath.”
So you see, Edwitness does not agree with Marinus that humans have no free will but he thinks nobody is paying attention and he joins with another Protestant who he actually disagrees with in order to attack a Catholic. Both Edwitness and Marinus do this. They reject each other’s core beliefs but act as if they are in agreement in order to attack a Catholic. This is precisely the type of hypocrisy Jesus condemned.
In this forum Edwitness claimed that Protestants can believe things that are clearly contradicted in Scripture and still be saved but at the same time he condemns Catholics because they (get this) believe things that are clearly contradicted in Scripture. This is the confused and hypocritical mind of the Protestant.
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandemnts”
-Jesus
There is that ” Free Will ” again, the stumbling block of the man-centered religion the Roman Catholics and I might add many Protestants. Mans “Free Will ” is not in the Bible. Give me on verse out of the Bible where it is used in combination.
Jesus said,”Thy will be done.” Matt. 6:10 That is only God’s will be done.
Man is a slave of sin Rom. 6:20 and a slave is not free.
God gave us a will, but it is not “Free”. Unregenerate man’s will is geared to do evil only. Man does not choose God on his own.
Rom. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing. For the will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Fallen man will not come to Christ, because he hates the light (Jn 3:19-21, 5:40 )
Only God can quicken a dead man’s heart, just like Jesus did to Lazarus. Lazarus was stinking dead, until Jesus called him,” Lazarus come forth.” Only then he got up.
(( It was not the other way around, Lazarus did not get up first and seeing Jesus then he believed )) like many false preachers preach that believing comes before regeneration .
No I don’ t believe in a man-centered gospel and I don’t believe in universalism.
I love Jesus, but He FIRST loves me.
Marinus,
Don’t the scriptures that say man is a slave to sin, as it relates to the law, assume the fact that he has chosen it at some time during his life before that becomes true?
For instance, doesn’t the fact that the Gentiles were able to keep that which is written in the law by their nature, without ever having had the law, before ever being born again, say just that? Rom.2:14. And that Zachariah and Elizabeth could keep the law blameless must mean they were not slaves to sin, right? Luke1:6.
This in no way implies that Gentiles are to keep the law. Paul makes it very clear from this passage and others (Rom.4:15 and 5:13) that those who do not have the law are not responsible to keep it. It only means that by their own nature, the one you believe is a slave to sin, they are able to do the things written in the law. This makes a very good case for free will, wouldn’t you agree?
And then there is the fact that Adam was able to choose to believe the serpent rather than God. Even when there was no sin by man or death in the world yet. The very fact that God would give Adam the choice between which trees he would have access to, and be able to eat if he so chose, is a case for free will also, right?
We find in Genesis that God has made man in His image. There are two mentioned that we know of. They are dominion and free will. Dominion is stated plainly. Gen.1:26-28.
But, to see free will here we must understand what it takes to rule over the earth and the creatures in it. We are not robots programmed to go about our lives never making a real choice. It takes free will to do that.
Do you choose to believe what I am telling you or not? It’s your choice and the fact that you indeed choose, manifests what is known as free will.
Blessings:-}
Stephen J S,
The thing is that John also wrote that for those who know the Lord there is no way to un- know Him. This is what John is teaching in 1John3:6-9.
“Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”
And is why he said in 1John2:19 that,
“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.”
These passages clearly teach that the free will is not equipped to reject Jesus once a person has truly trusted in Him. When someone really comes to know Jesus they would never choose not to trust Him.
Which is why we are told in Rom.8:38,39,
“For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
I’m pretty sure this covers free will. This speaks to the Christian.
Once saved, always saved.
It should concern you that the Jesus you believe in is not one that keeps you saved. John and Paul taught of this Jesus that keeps us saved. Paul taught this to Timothy when he wrote in 2Tim.1:12,
“For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that HE IS ABLE TO KEEP that which I have committed unto him against that day.”
When we have trusted in Him HE KEEPS that against that day.
Like I said. Once saved. Always saved.
Blessings:-}
I’m Sooo very saddened & sick to hear Brian & many others are part of the apostasy…ESPECIALLY @ Pastor Chucks ..I mean Jesus’ church. Pastor Chuck couldn’t be perfect…according to scripture only Jesus is…but he was EXTREMELY faithful & a diligent & an AWESOME Pastor & teacher. I love & miss him!! We ALL must be so very careful to stay in Jesus & in the WORD & prayer so we too do not become deceived or led astray. MARANATHA. Come LORD JESUS.
One of the biggest hushed up secrets of the Calvary Chapel movement is the indispensible role that the erratic, but charismatic figure of Lonnie Frisbee had in the founding of Calvary Chapel. God really does like to confound us sometimes, with the people he picks to work through. The same can be said of Rich Mullins, who produced some of the most beautiful, poetic Christian music of the 1980’s and 90’s. Both Frisbee and Mullins were very broken people. But they touched the lives of so many. I don’t understand it, but we have to remember that God is God. Even though what the Bible says about Him is absolutely true, there is still so much that we don’t know.
Frisbee was a well-known drug user and homosexual. I believe that he died of AIDS. He touched lives…but not for the biblical Jesus Christ. People were attracted to his charisma and personality, but that is how it is with many false prophets, such as Todd White today. Only by understanding the blood Jesus Christ shed for our wickedness, on a cold hard cross and in the presence of his gloating enemies, are we saved. Emotional worship services do not save….
Have you ever watched the documentary: Frisbee: The Life and Death of a Hippy Preacher? The whole story is right there on film. Frisbee was the very epicenter of the Jesus movement in the late 60’s and early 70’s. Calvary Chapel didn’t really take off until people came in droves because of Frisbee’s ministry. Yes he had serious problems, fell into sin and had a tragic ending to his life But you just can’t erase history You also might want to watch the movie, Ragamuffin, which is a movie based on Rich Mullins life. You can see how broken of a man he was in that movie. But he wrote some of the most beautiful, worshipful music ever recorded “God has chosen the foolish things of this world to shame the wise.He has chosen the weak things to shame the strong. He has chosen the lowly things, and the despised things and the things that are not so that no one may boast before Him. 1 Cor. 1:26-29. Then there is the life of Evan Roberts who was mightily used by God in the Welsh Revival from 1904-06. By 1906 though he had an emotional collapse and never again engaged in public ministry, but devoted the rest of his life to intercessory prayer. God has used people like this over and over in church history. His ways are not our ways
God doesn’t use people living in unrepentant sin. God uses those who know they are sinners in need of a saviour rather than the false prophets of America who use personality, emotion and sometimes even rock music to make a name for themselves. People who actually preach and teach about the Jesus Christ of the Bible…the one who Isaiah 53 notes had nothing about him in his flesh that appeals to men. The one who was abused and even brutalized to pay for our sins. The one who told us that unless we repent we will perish. The one who told us to flee from sin and this wicked world. Frisbee, as most churches today, used the ways of the world with a little Jesus sprinkled in, to build an empire…a false empire in my view, meaning one where darkness and light are woven together so that the flock cannot tell the difference between the two. I love that passage in 1 Corinthians 1, and even wrote about it. But it does not apply to men who have long and secret lives of unrepentant wickedness all while professing a generic, emotion-fueled Jesus….one that doesn’t exist in the Bible.
I think that Samson would be a very clear case of someone God used who was not really walking with Him. The Old Testament is filled with people who committed sin and God still worked with them ( David planning the death of Uriah, God continuing the messianic line through Tamar’s deception, Jacob deceiving Isaac, etc. ) Don’t get me wrong. I’m not making excuses for sin. But it is very clear that God has worked through such people for reasons known only to Him.
God is sovereign and can use any means to save people, be it the mouth of a false teacher or the mouth of an angel. Matthew 7 tells us it is the false teacher who must stand before the great white throne and in futility plead his works as verification of salvation. God’s Holy Spirit will guide those who truly seek his kingdom first, be they catholic, calvary, NAR, word – faith. Wheat is wheat. Tares are tares. Only God can change their dna.
Very true…a false Bible saved me some 30 years ago, but we must all be careful not to glorify false teachers in any way, because, as Paul noted in Galatians 1, if anyone preaches a false gospel (one devoid of sin and repentance), will be eternally condemned. So let’s all preach Jesus Christ crucified for our sins, buried and risen…and he now sits at the right hand of God the Father and will soon come, ending the rebellion his seditioust cherub started.
Amen, Jerod.
I cringe when I think about all the wrong doctrine and practices that were going on during the Jesus Movement, much of it as a result of the huge influx of baby Christians. There were many leaders, who were slightly more mature, in positions they probably shouldn’t have been in. There were definitely abuses, false conversions, etc. Although I am sad to see that some have ended up in NAR leadership positions (apostles!?!), I know of others (me!) who the Holy Spirit led out of questionable teaching into more sound doctrine and sustained us in our faith over the years.
Most people from the Jesus People Movement know that Brian and Cheryl Brodersen are Narcissists. Their “ministry” reflects their Narcissism. Brian Brodersen still states (on his radio show) that he “struggles” because he is so full of himself.
Many of the original Jesus People are also painfully aware that Greg Laurie is an idolater, often lifting up celebrities and media personalities during his services. The best example of his ridiculous ideas about life occurred during a final interview with Pastor Chuck Smith, in August of 2013, when he asked Pastor Chuck, “When you’re in heaven … how do you want to be remembered?”
Click on the Web link below to listen to the way Pastor Chuck answered Greg Laurie’s inappropriate question.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw_-v1gkQKs
My husband and I attended both Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church and Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa when we lived in California. In fact, we left Saddleback to attend CCCM, since we appreciated Pastor Chuck Smith’s teaching straight from the Bible. It saddens me that Pastor Brian could not build on the legacy Pastor Chuck left, but felt it necessary to make changes to suit whatever agenda he was trying to forward. I pray CCCM and other Calvarys will return to the basics as outlined by Pastor Chuck. He is sorely missed!
I couldn’t have said it better. Expressing concerns isn’t nitpicking.
It’s funny to me that this is called “Berean Research” when they just took this pastor at his word. When you follow the links of this article it seems very nitpicky. It’s best not to get involved in witch hunts against famous people.
Idolatry will get you nowhere.
It sounds like those endorsing Chuck Smiths doctrinal positions need to leave and form a new association possibly calling them somthing such as Orthox Calvary Chaples. God bless those faithful ministers fighting for biblical truth
1Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
This is to Amy Spreeland and Marsha West, your “Bereans” folks
Dana, where in the word of God does it say a woman cannot report the news or form an opinion and discuss it? Is she teaching men? Is her opinion unbiblical?
Who is she usurping authority over?
I thought I was alone when I questioned our Central Coast California CC senior pastor about the churches leaning toward Bethel Church (Redding, CA) teachings. What was said publicly from the pulpit was mostly from CC standards, but behind the scenes, the pastor defended those who visited Bethel and subsequently preached and taught the “signs and wonders” gospel. He defended those who were stating apostolic views as “my friends who are faithful and loyal to me”. When I questioned him about loyal to “him” vs God, he became angry. I reminded him these were people who he gave authority to lead church ministries and he should be aware of these teachings, he ignored me.
This was all done via email threads and he became unkind, blaming me for being filled with past “church-hurt”. I apologized for any possible “careless” words I may have spoken, but he did not. I thought he crossed the line and I quietly left the church and my friends, canceling my online giving. He offered to meet with me almost two months ago to discuss this with him and one of the elders. I agreed. Never heard from him. I reminded him again about meeting to talk a few weeks ago, he said he hasn’t been able to schedule it. The church elders are the male staff and his friends, he calls my “bro’s” and some who give significantly (financially) to the church.So sad at this situation and especially that others are going through this too. Since there is no “head” of this church, who do you go to for help? Shouldn’t CC overall know about this so the CC be removed from the church name and therefore, not mislead people?
There’s a lot of stealthy activity going on with the New Apostolic Reformation people infiltrating churches and taking over without the congregation knowing about the process until it’s too late. I just read an article regarding a Miami CC church taken over by Hillsong: https://churchwatchcentral.com/2016/08/16/miami-grooming-insider-exposes-hillsong-churchs-secret-undermining-of-calvary-kendall-miami/
On doing an online check of a local Foursquare Church, I found signs of NAR infiltraion: The church offers a special class on learning how to prophesy, the pastor on his Facebook page says something favorable about Bethel Church (Redding), and I happen to know that the pastor’s father is an NAR apostle (and also a Foursquare minister, perhaps now retired as minister) . I spoke with a friend/church member of 40 years who was totally unaware of these facts or what the NAR is.
In my last (non-denominational) church, I was able to pick out three people who appeared to be NAR plants because they seemed so conspicuously out of place and wanted to start a “healing ministry,” among other things. They are not very smooth so they have not made much inroads into that congregation, but they try! I imagine this type of infiltration by individuals is going on in other churches, as well.
You heard it there, too? Well, Brodersen tweets support for Alpha Course, Laurie shares platforms with NAR, my pastor has our elders praying for false eachers. This seems to be the corporate azimuth CC’s are taking now. I have heard from my pastor that apostolic and Word-Faith teachers/preachers and their audience simply “see things differently”, and we can ask others to pray to their gods for us without worrying about what god they are praying to. It’s ecumenism, emergent church, etc., no matter what they say to the contrary.
Sadly, This kind of behavior is becoming more commonplace more than ever before at CC’s.
Sherry,
You said “Since there is no “head” of this church, who do you go to for help? Shouldn’t CC overall know about this so the CC be removed from the church name and therefore, not mislead people?”
This is exactly what happened when Chuck was alive. In fact Chuck and John Wimber had just such a disagreement because Wimber wanted to move toward a more experiencially based fellowship. Signs and wonders type stuff. And that is exactly why Wimber’s organization became known as The Vineyard and not another CC.
Blessings:-}
Christ is the Head of the church, we are the body. God gave us a handbook to live by, it’s called the Bible, if you have questions you will find the answer in there. CC is following the Roman Catholics way, the Pope is their head. Does CC need a man like the Pope. I think it’s a good thing that each individual CC church is independent. Let their pastors feed their flock, and are responsible for their own church.
Who knows,just wondering, does God have His hand in all this?
Marinus,
You asked “Who knows, just wondering, does God have His hand in all of this?”
It is my belief that God has His hands in everything.
Well, God is Lord of all and will definitely sort out any doctrinal errors. It is His church after all. On a personal note, I sorely miss Pastor Chuck and Pastor Romaine. They were two of the greatest examples of the graciousness of God I have ever known.
Love conquers all. Let’s be praying for them…….
Your right about Chuck and Romaine. When visiting our church as a guest speaker, Romaine kept me on my toes. I was an usher and always looked forward to his visits!
Hi to all from an AUSSIE who had to seperate from doctrinal indifferences in the CHURCH and associated fellwships which came from a founding Apostel. Pity i didnt have any one in 25 yrs of fellowship bro and sis to stand against as the scriptures state. WE are not to be LORDS OVER THE FLOCK OF GOD . but helpers of their FAITH AND JOY. Scripture also states about many TEACHERS but not FATHERS in the flock. Just 1 more thing 1st APOSTELS / PROPHETS / EVANGELISTS / some pastors and teachers .ep4/11. Now vr 12 for the EDIFYING of the BODY of CHRIST +++++ vr13 UNITY OF THE FAITH ++++++ stature of the FULLNESS of CHRIST vr14 Children TOSSED TO and FRO +++++ then identifying THE CUNNING CRAFTINESS what it is wrong with it. vrs15 SPEAKING THE TRUTH IN LOVE++ growing up to the HEAD CHRIST. vrs15 From the WHOLE BODY joined and knit TOGETHER+++++++++++ for the EDIFYING of itself IN LOVE. I havent been here long on COMMENTS but. CHRIST SAID either for me or AGAINST me very simple if we follow CHRIST and not what a man says. i have read many of the statements above have clarrified some true some not. 1 of the 10 com stated not to bear false wittness against another. There is a way to sort this out in the GOSPELS and letters. PAUL tells to judge ourselves to be worthy. ? In the fellowship for many dont do this and look at the state that causes INSIDE the fellowship. Not good at all if we cant do this as individuals discerning THE LORDS BODY. Then we bring dammnation on our selves. HEAVY STUFF being addressed here. By the way this is 11 ch later to his first address to sort out the DIVISIONSin corinth fellowship.. I think he said in the beggining i could not speak to you as SPIRITUAL but CARNALLY for you are carnall if you dont sort out your differences amongst yourselves…. The long suffering PAUL did and showed to the CHURCH at corinth was outstanding for an APOSTEL and TEACHER… We now need to see how he ended his references to those who had sinned before and no REPENTANCE to those many who did. I think he said i WLL NOT SPARE THEM when i come again. All who become pastors / teachers and minesters / helpers ++++ in a CHURCH feel and know something is wrong before a SPLIT after all we are members of HIS BODY not an orginization. Thus as PAUL said one says of paul 1 of cephas 1 of appolo. This should not be so bretheren. A problem then a bigger 1 today Paul tried to fix then?????? did he achieve it.? As for me i dont think so… O.T. moses had the same problem with ISRAEL . GOD could get them out of egypt but couldent get EGYPT out of them… I think GOD spared MOSES o.t. PAUL n.t. being mercyfull to both not to see the decline of both ISRAEL AND THE CHURCH in death they had run their RACE so to speak. I see in the epistels a interesting statement. HAVING DONE ALL STAND. CHRIST said when he comes WILL HE FIND FAITH. A good ? for us today. SELAH as david would say many times in PSALMS. Shalom. Hey a ? if PAUL came to any of our fellowships now i wonder what he might SAY to all especially the LEADERS .he didnt spare PETER did he. It had to be said STAND FOR SOMETHING OR FALL FOR EVERYTHING is the predicament today.
Wow.
Love ya. But. You all need to get our more.
It’s a big big church.
Slamming bro’s like Rick is lame.
Hi Chip. You are the last to reply on this post. I am very new to this. I have never done this type of debating…..>>>>/////// and trying to work out the right words to use for EDIFYING The BODY OF CHRIST in these LAST DAYS i think has come down to what CHRIST SAID in the gospels.Its like this. You will be brought before RUlERS and AUTHORITIES do not think ///// or accomodate in your fleshly mind what you NEED TO SAY for i will give you the WORDS to SPEAK. The other VOICE in the garden was the ACCUSERS VOICE…. and we need to be very carefull in ACCUSEATIONS of one another beings MEMBERS ONE OF ANOTHER…. The ACCUSER NIGHT AND DAY ACCUSES US before GOD lets not be IGNORANT OF HIS DEVICES to get ADVANTAGE over the church US the ECCLASIA. Please look in the GRK /HBRto get the full meaning.2 cor 6 will help also. I know we have to warn on APOSTASY and ERROR we have been ALL MADE OVERSEERS OVER the flock of GOD noy OVERSTATERS . Plleas stay in the FOLD where the GREAT SHEPERD oversees..HE sees the LION / bear / WOLF++++++ he will PROTECT US stay the COURSE there is a reward for those who will stay in HIS WORD after all his WORD IS ABOVE HIS NAME. EMMANUEL…. The LORD is with us . SHALOM AND SELAH. Gal 5 and 6 and ALLwho walk according to this RULE /////PEACE be upon the NEW ISRAEL OF GOD thats is us and dont forget it BROTHERS AND SISTERS.
Coming into a Calvary Chapel from no former religion or the Catholic Church will seem to an “attender” (no formal definitions or rights and responsibilities/checks and balances to the “leadership”) will seem like paradise. But a discerning believer coming from an established evangelical church will note the following: There is no accountability to the flock how their monetary offerings are handled. (Yes, Monsignor!). They confuse the filling with the Holy Spirit with the one-time soteriological passive event of the Baptism in/with the Holy Spirit. Most cannot read the scriptures in Hebrew or Greek since they’ve never been formally “graduated” from a school of “higher learning” (many are mere high school graduates: Remember Trump saying: “I love uneducated people!). Their worship services are entertainment-driven praise band music taking up the first half, maybe with a half paragraph extemporary prayer, the pastor not present on the stage or seats until he makes a stage presence for the message. The preaching, usually expository book by book, seldom reaches the level of high school Sunday level delivery, hermeneutic and application. There is an unrecognized revolving door in the attendees and the “leadership.” After attending a NJ CC for 6 years I left. There was nothing more the pastor could teach me that I couldn’t find for myself in study Bibles and hermeneutical helps.
Hey Danny amen. The scripture actually says . But the ANNOINTING will teach you ALL THINGS. That you dont need mans TEACHINGS. 1jh 2/17. I hope and pray for those who GOD is calling out to put their trust in GODS WORDS not anothers as in the garden so it is now just a littel twist of the WORD ? ERROR does and will cause the GREAT FALLING AWAY .Now is the time for deception as i have read a cross road the mass of humanity who have died is equal to those who are alive i may be corrected on this. But as you see SATAN came to CHRIST after the 40 days using the written WORD on him to stop him in his called PURPOSE as the SON who only speaks only what the FATHER tells me .Paul said there is ANOTHER GOSPEL he said that then . ? What is it NOW. HB5 is a beautifull ch on CHRIST. It is at the end of the chp that the point is made between the BABY???ies to the one who can DISCERN between GOOD / EVIL . A mature CHRISTOS child of GOD they are needed now not later. Are these mega fellowships raising up such SONS and DAUGHTERS for the FATHERS CALLING. In the last days…If you read the next chp HB6 you will get the message of what we are in NOW. To all those who are called out STAY YOUR COURSE for he who PROMISED is FAITHFULL. SHALOM ////// SELAH.
I was actually doing research on replacement theology, cults, etc and something caught my eye and I ended up here for a moment. Ah, those rabbit trails! Interestingly, I and my family have attended 3 different Calvary Chapels in three different states (we’ve moved a bit) but one only briefly… 2-3 times. The other two around 6-9 months each. Long story short, across the board, pastors were arrogant and appeared to chose their surrounding leaders based on personality and personal loyalty…not the qualities the bible mandates. Pastors and leaders also appeared to be disgruntled individuals who couldn’t achieve leadership or success in the secular arena, end up in a Calvary chapel church, and when they find you don’t have to have “formal schooling” to be a leader, they quickly assert their energetic ambitions by volunteering for every available thing, attending studies, and cozying up to the leaders. Pastors, being led by “pathos” rather than logos or ethos, in turn chose their protégés by their loyalties and logistical service, and not the biblical mandated character of heart. And… they truly do treat women (other than their dynasty wives) like the Pharisees did/do in Judaism. I could go on about a horrendous incident we experienced, but we’ve moved on and it’s too exhausting to think about rehashing. But I believe anyone seeking to serve God and assemble with a body of servants under full biblical doctrine will figure all these unfortunate characteristics of CC out, hopefully sooner rather than later. My heartfelt prayer is that God’s children repent of evil self-centered motives and learn to truly work as servants, and pastoral leaders should be leading the way. God bless and look up…. Our redemption draws near!
These posts are very interesting, although sad at the same time. I was brought up as a Catholic and came to know Jesus as an adult while attending a Bible based church that taught the word of God through expository teaching. My family attended that church for many years and I was also on staff for about 3 years. This church came as close as I have ever seen to exhibiting cult like tendencies. We, along with many others, decided to leave. We have been attending a Calvary Chapel in South Orange County for almost 5 years. It is the most Spirit filled, loving group of people I have ever encountered. I didn’t know much about the “Calvary Movement” other than referring to them as “Jesus Freaks” in the seventies, which is when I graduated from high school in Anaheim. Our pastor is truly anointed and is a gifted Bible teacher and at the same time a wonderful shepherd. This is a combination I have rarely seen in churches today. People are going down a dangerous road to make general statements regarding all Calvary Chapels. There are hundreds of them and they are run by men…..just sinners like you and me. We have been taught to never place a man on a pedestal or to look up to a pastor, as the Catholics do the Pope. Please people, if you are unhappy with the teaching at a certain church, whether it be a Calvary Chapel or not, just leave and go elsewhere. What is happening now, as far as I can confirm through my personal research, is that some Calvary pastors are choosing to veer away from the standards that Pastor Chuck set forth when he first started Calvary Chapels. Just as the Bible explains, we will encounter false teachers, even more so as we get closer to Jesus calling us home. The Bible is clear about women teaching in the church. According to scripture, women can teach women and children, but a man should be the pastor. Some men feel that as our society is changing and becoming more accepting of “worldly” norms, such as the changing family and the women’s movement, they too must change to be relevant in society and keep their churches happy. I am thankful that our pastor is not bending to societal changes and is staying true to God’s Word. Whether our church ends up as part of the Costa Mesa Calvary Chapel World Organization is irrelevant and to be honest, not important to me. What is important is that we are being taught God’s Word and are growing in our relationship with Jesus Christ.
You say that you have been taught to never place a man on a pedestal or to look up to a pastor, as the Catholics do the Pope
But then you write,
“some Calvary pastors are choosing to veer away from the standards that Pastor Chuck set forth when he first started Calvary Chapels”
And
“Our pastor is truly anointed and is a gifted Bible teacher and at the same time a wonderful shepherd.”
Double standard…
As long we are being thought God’s Word ALONE, and not God’s Word with man’s thoughts and ideas sprinkled here and there, which happens in many churches Catholic and Evangelical churches alike.
Gal. 1:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
“Doctrinally we are all in agreement…Our areas of disagreement are NOT theological or doctrinal;…these disagreements…have created confusion, contention, and some division within the body of Christ.”
In other words “since we agree doctrinally and theologically I have no choice but to separate from CCA and go my own way.”
Makes perfect non-sense.
This is typical Protestant-ese. Whenever a Protestant church splits it is NEVER because of theological or doctrinal differences it’s ALWAYS (allegedly) because of some “secondary” or “nonessential” issue.
I have news for this Pastor (and anyone reading this) churches do not split over “secondary” issues AND the reality is the moment a Pastor splits from his church his reason for leaving becomes a DOCTRINAL issue. It’s like a couple telling their children they are divorcing because all of the most important aspects of their marriage are perfectly alright.
This is nothing new, for over 500 years Protestants have been dividing over “nonessential” issues that (supposedly) have nothing to do with theology or doctrine…as if that makes any sense at all.
The very first church split in history took place when Martin Luther left his church due to “doctrinal errors and sin in the church” but he later declared that sin has no affect on a persons salvation and “even if a Christian were to commit murder and rape a thousand times a day they could not lose their salvation”.
If that is true, then why did Martin Luther leave to begin with????
“If you want to enter life, keep the Commandments”
-Jesus
You say that you have been taught to never place a man on a pedestal or to look up to a pastor, as the Catholics do the Pope
But then you write,
“some Calvary pastors are choosing to veer away from the standards that Pastor Chuck set forth when he first started Calvary Chapels”
And
“Our pastor is truly anointed and is a gifted Bible teacher and at the same time a wonderful shepherd.”
Double standard…total hypocrisy
snooop1e,
The reason Luther left is that to be saved in the first place it must be by grace through faith in Jesus without works. This way of salvation is foreign to the institution he chose to leave and rebuke.
Once saved in this way you can not lose your salvation. By virtue of the fact that since works can not save you, they can not unsave you either.
And that’s why he left in the first place:-)
You wrote,
“The reason Luther left is that to be saved in the first place”
You are reinforcing my point.
“it must be by grace through faith in Jesus without works”
James 2:24
You see that a man is MADE RIGHTEOUS BY WORKS and NOT BY FAITH ALONE.
Note: If salvation is by faith alone then Luther was already saved before he left which opposes your statement “to be saved in the first place” if Luther was already saved before leaving (a work) then his leaving accomplished nothing relative to salvation and you havent actually answered the question. If we are all saved by faith alone and not by doctrines or works why does Luther believe that fellow Christians are NOT saved BECAUSE OF their DOCTRINES and their WORKS?
“since works can not save you, they can not unsave you either.”
It is a false (man made) dichotomy that says if no amount of good works can save then no amount of sin can condemn. Show me a single verse in scripture where tares, goats, bad trees or chaff inherit eternal life? You cannot.
Nowhere in the New Testament does Jesus or Paul ever tell anyone that no matter how much they sin they will not go to hell.
EVERY one of Pauls letters in the NT is written to BELIEVERS that he personally converted and he is warning them not to sin. Paul warns the believers in Ephesus
Eph 5:5
For of this YOU CAN BE SURE No immoral, impure or greedy person–such a person is an idolater–HAS ANY INHERITANCE IN THE KINGDOM OF CHRIST AND OF GOD. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
Paul warns the believers in Rome
Rom 2:6-7
God “WILL REPAY EVERYONE ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS.” To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, HE WILL GIVE ETERNAL LIFE.
Rom 2:13
It is not those who hear the law who are righteous in Gods sight IT IS THOSE WHO OBEY THE LAW who WILL BE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS.
Paul warns the believers in Galatia,
Gal 5:19
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I WARN YOU, as I did before, that those who live like this WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
Paul warns the believers in Corinth,
1 Cor 6:9
Do you not know that the WICKED WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who perform homosexual acts,nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God
Paul warns the believers in Jerusalem,
Heb 10:26
If we deliberately keep on sinning AFTER we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of RAGING FIRE that will consume the enemies of God…THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE…It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
NOTE: The Lord will JUDGE HIS PEOPLE
You didnt really answer the question you just reiterated Luthers unbiblical doctrine of justification by faith alone.
James 2:24
You see that a man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone.
God Bless
@ snooopie. You said that Martin Luther said that you can murder and rape a thousand time, that that Christian will be saved. You know that it is a bold face lie, like most of the things you say. First of all, you are the on that calls this man a Christian. The Calvinist believes that any man that does habitually sin, is to examine himself he is more then likely not saved and is not a Christian. We strongly believe what the Bible teaches, a saved person is a new creation.
2 Cor. 5:17 ” Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature, old things are passed away: behold all things are become new.”
We have no desire to continue to mire in the muck of sin. We have the Holy Spirit living within us, He will help us to accomplish it. The Bible teaches in ,
Phil. 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
I will not be perfect, I will stumble occasionally, but He will lift me back up.
The problem is Calvary Chapel doesn’t require their pastors to go to seminary at an accredited biblical school, they have their own school and not all pastors even attend that. In a way its a goid idea to keep things simple and bless people to go out and preach the gospel. But the reality is if they are not trained and knowledgable , as comes from a seminary education, they may not be prepared to lead a group of people in the subject, nor deal with difficulties pastors snd leaders encounter
The problem isn’t which Bible College or Seminary they attended or did not attend. The problem is none of these Protestant “Pastors” can trace their ordination (the laying on of hands) all the way back to the Apostles. They are not in the line of succession originating with the Apostles. If you cannot trace your laying on of hands all the way back the Apostles then you were “ordained” by a man or woman and are not in the line of succession going back to the Church established by Jesus Christ. Every single Protestant church today was started by a man or woman who is not in the line of succession leading back to the Apostles. Some of them even “ordained” themselves. This is not biblical. This is why Protestant churches continue to split and divide. Today there are over 40,000 different Protestant/Evangelical churches who disagree about what is and is not “essential” for salvation and most allow every kind of sin imaginable such as fornication, adultery (divorce and remarriage), masturbation, chemical and surgical sterilization, chemical and surgical abortion, gay marriage, gay clergy all in the name of sola fide. If you want to commit a specific kind of sin no problem just find a Protestant “church” that is accepting of yourparticular form of sin because your “works” (the way you live your life) has nothing to do with your salvation. Just “accept Jesus as your Savior” and all of your FUTURE sins are forgiven and NOTHING you do can ever keep you from going to heaven. Now this will anger many Protestant/Evangelical Christians but the reason it angers you is simply because it’s true. Now pick up your stones, I didn’t start your church someone else did, I am just pointing out the truth.
1 John 2-4
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
snooop1e,
Bwahahaha ha ha ha ha!!!
That’s why Calvary produces false teachers, not that they purposely teach falsehoods, it is that they don’t know better. What is sad, they pass it on to their flock, that’s why we have many ignorant people.
Very true,most of the CC so called pastors have no theological training nor sound doctrine. Also what is satanic and ridiculous is that CC ppl do promote each-other as pastor/bible teachers while having no academic training at all. So disgusting!
“After receiving everlasting life the believer is to mature and produce fruit” — live the life they have received.”
Speaking of fruit in Matt 7 Jesus says there is good fruit (good works) and bad fruit (bad works) and any tree (believer) that does not produce good fruit (good works) is cut down and cast into the fire.
Matt 7:13
Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
Jesus goes on to elaborate,
Matt 7:21
21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 2wOn that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
So there is a clear contradiction between your words and Jesus words. Those who have everlasting life are not cast into the fire and Jesus does not tell those who have everlasting life “depart from me you workers of lawlessness I never knew you.
The Greek word for mature (complete, perfect) is Teleios.
Matt 5:48 says,
Matt 5:48
You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
“faith is not the same as faithfulness.”
Where are the words “faith is not the same as faithfulness” found in the Bible? Do you realize you are saying true faith can be unfaithful?
Where in the Bible does it say that the”unfaithful” have eternal life?
“Jas 2:26- “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” —Is James saying that a body without spirit ceases to be a body?”
Are you familiar with the term analogy? James is making a comparison between physical and spiritual death. Physical death is temporal, spiritual death is eternal. A body without a spirit is physically dead and a faith with out works is spiritually dead. In your desperation to prove your unbiblical doctrines you are arguing that a “dead faith” brings eternal life. You are saying that we are justified by dead faith.
“why do you have him saying that faith without works cease to be faith?”
LOL, I don’t “have him saying” anything. God inspired James to write those words not me. Once again you are the one trying to convince people that the verse means the exact opposite of what it actually says. Its really straight forward. The reason you have to “explain” all of these verses is because they explicitly contradict your beliefs.
James 2:14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
James 2:17
So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith was active along with his works, and HIS FAITH WAS TELEIOS BY HIS WORKS ; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.
James 2:24
You see that a person is JUSTIFIED BY WORKS and NOT BY FAITH ALONE.
No “explanation” needed.
“James is not telling his readers that they need to be saved from eternal punishment in hell.”
Sounds good, James is telling believers that a dead faith will save them, makes perfect non-sense.
“1 John 2:3-5 does not say “anyone who claims to “believe” in Jesus but does not keep the commandments is a LIAR and the truth is not in him! You changed “know” to “believe
Are you saying that we do not have to know Jesus in order to be saved?
1 John 2:3
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:4
Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him
1 John 2: 5
but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
Matt 7:22
Berean Study Bible
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never KNEW you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Luke 13:25
When the master of the house has locked the door, it will be too late. You will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Lord, open the door for us!’ But he will reply, ‘I DON’T KNOW YOU or where you come from.’
Luke 13:27
And he will reply, ‘I tell you, I DON’T KNOW YOU or where you come from. Get away from me, all you who do evil.’
John 10:14
I am the good shepherd. I know my own and MY OWN KNOW ME
You still have not answered the questions,
1. Which of God’s commandments is impossible for you to keep with Christ IN you?
2. If 2 Christians gather together in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they come to the conclusion that your beliefs are not Biblical, that you are a false teacher and that you are not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
3. Are your interpretations of the Bible perfect and free from all error? If not then how do you know what you have right and what you have wrong?
4. Where in the Bible does it say that dead faith brings eternal life?
God Bless,
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Snooopie you said,” after receiving everlasting life the believer is to mature and produce fruit.” I agree with that statement, but it is only valid for a true believer. If that so-called believer continues to say,” If you want to enter life, keep my commandments.” That person is not a believer. That person does not know Jesus Christ, because that person has a proud heart, he thinks that he can be saved by good works, without Jesus Christ. He may think that he is saved, but when that time comes when he stands at the pearly gate he will hear Jesus say,” Depart from Me, I never knew you.” What a sobering thought that is.
Please listen to these men that try to help you, they are not liars. They want to meet you in heaven. Abandon the traditions of a false religion. By the way Jesus Christ is the only one that can save you, the only Person to ask is Jesus Christ. Jesus said, ” you have not, because you ask not.” Give all the glory to Him.
“If that so-called believer continues to say,” If you want to enter life, keep my commandments.” That person is not a believer”
Again, thank you for sharing your personal interpretation of the Bible but NO WHERE in the Bible does it say,
“If that so-called believer continues to say, ‘If you want to enter life, keep my commandments.’ That person is not a believer…that person does not know Jesus Christ”
Your words are not biblical. The Bible tells us very clearly (1 John 2:3), (1John 2:4), (1 John 2:5) how we can KNOW that we KNOW Jesus Christ. While I appreciate you constantly repeating your doctrines they are not Biblical. I will follow the perfect Word of God not the imperfect word of you.
1 John 2:3
And by this WE KNOW THAT WE HAVE COME TO KNOW HIM, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.
1 John 2:5
but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him must walk in the same way in which he walked
“Please listen to these men that try to help you, they are not liars.”
1 John 2 :4
Whoever says “I know him” BUT DOES NOT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS IS A LIAR AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM
“By the way Jesus Christ is the only one that can save you…”
AMEN!!!
“Jesus said, ‘you have not, because you ask not.’ Give all the glory to Him.”
Amen!!! I pray to Jesus every day and ask ‘Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the living God, have mercy on me a sinner.’ God tells us in the Bible,
1 John 3:22
Beloved, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God, and we will receive from Him whatever we ask, BECAUSE WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS AND DO WHAT PLEASES HIM.
You argue that anyone who believes Jesus words “if you want to enter life, keep the commandments” does not know Jesus. You argue that anyone who believes God when He says, “by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments” is not saved. Believe as you will, as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
Can you answer the questions?
1. Which of God’s commandments is impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you?
2. If 2 Christians gather together in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they come to the conclusion that your beliefs are not Biblical, that you are a false teacher and that you are not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
3. Are your interpretations of the Bible perfect and free from all error? If not then how do you know what you have right and what you have wrong?
4. Where in the Bible does it say that dead faith brings eternal life?
God Bless,
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Snoop1e,
Marinus’ points were spot on. With your very poor premises you get everything else you build on them wrong too.
When you see this you can begin to exegete the scriptures properly.
Thank you for sharing your personal opinion. Did you have something Biblical to share?
You still have not answered the questions,
1. Which of God’s commandments is impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you?
2. If 2 Christians gather together in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they come to the conclusion that your beliefs are not Biblical, that you are a false teacher and that you are not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
3. Are your interpretations of the Bible perfect and free from all error? If not then how do you know what you have right and what you have wrong?
4. Where in the Bible does it say that dead faith brings eternal life?
God Bless,
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Snooop1e You try to explain by using Greek, you have difficulty to understand the English language .
We read in Eph.2:8,9. By grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
I don’t need a Greek dictionary to understand this verse. It is pretty clear to me.
You keep accusing me of misinterpreting the Bible. I’m given you the honor, you tell me what the apostle Paul is saying here. I’m waiting for your answer, I’m anxious to hear.
Snoop1e,
I have answered them. What you have just shown me is that you don’t read all of what I have written. Good enough:-)
I must have missed it. Would you mind answering again please.
1. Which of God’s commandments is impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you?
2. If 2 Christians gather together in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they come to the conclusion that your beliefs are not Biblical, that you are a false teacher and that you are not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
3. Are your interpretations of the Bible perfect and free from all error? If not then how do you know what you have right and what you have wrong?
4. Where in the Bible does it say that dead faith brings eternal life?
God Bless,
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Yes Snoop1e, I do mind.
I see. Well I don’t have a photographic memory so if you ever change your mind I would be very interested to see your answers.
1. Which of God’s 10 commandments is impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you?
2. If 2 Christians gather together in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they come to the conclusion that your beliefs are not Biblical, that you are a false teacher and that you are not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
3. Are your interpretations of the Bible perfect and free from all error? If not then how do you know what you have right and what you have wrong?
4. Where in the Bible does it say that dead faith brings eternal life?
God Bless,
“If I had not come and spoken to them they would not be guilty of sin, now they have no excuse for their sin”
-Jesus
Snoop1e,
It’s in the comment stream:-D
Nope, I looked through the entire thread and you never answered the questions. The questions still stand.
1. Which of God’s commandments is impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you?
2. If 2 Christians gather together in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they come to the conclusion that your beliefs are not Biblical, that you are a false teacher and that you are not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
3. Are your interpretations of the Bible perfect and free from all error? If not then how do you know what you have right and what you have wrong?
4. Where in the Bible does it say that dead faith brings eternal life?
God Bless,
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Snoop1e,
That’s where your problem is. You think the fruit in Mt.7 is works. You said “Speaking of fruit in Matt 7 Jesus says there is good fruit (good works) and bad fruit (bad works) and any tree (believer) that does not produce good fruit (good works) is cut down and cast into the fire.”
But, Jesus was clear that the fruit in Mt.7 is words not works. The subject is false prophets. Vs15- “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?”
Prophets speak forth what God tells them. That’s what makes them prophets.
And the fact that those in vs22 based their belief in Jesus on works is why Jesus said He did not know them.
What you believe always eventually comes out of your mouth. Therefore “BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM.”
“That’s where your problem is. You think the fruit in Mt.7 is works.”
Actually you are wrong. Your problem is, you don’t know the Greek meanings of words in the Bible. The Greek word for fruit in Matt 7 is Karpós.
Strongs Greek Concordance
Karpós
karpos: fruit
Original Word: καρπός, οῦ, ὁ
Short Definition: fruit, result, gain
Definition: …(b) met: fruit, deed, action, result, (c) profit, gain.
Thayers Greek lexicon says of Karpos “work, act, deed..used of men’s deeds .DEEDS REQUIRED FOR THE ATTAINMENT OF SALVATION IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD”
a. equivalent to ἔργον, WORK, ACT, DEED: with the genitive of the author, τοῦ πνεύματος, Galatians 5:22; τοῦ φωτός, Ephesians 5:9 (Rec. τοῦ πνεύματος); τῆς δικαιοσύνης, Philippians 1:11 (cf.
b…John 15:8, 16; USED OF MENS DEEDS as exponents of their hearts (cf. Winer’s Grammar, 372 (348)), Matthew 7:16, 20; ἀγαθοί, James 3:17; καρποί τῆς βασιλείας τοῦ Θεοῦ, DEEDS REQUIRED FOR THE ATTAINMENT OF SALVATION IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD, Matthew 21:43; ποιεῖν καρπούς ἀξίους τῆς μετανοίας, to exhibit DEEDS agreeing with a change of heart, Matthew 3:8; Luke 3:8 (cf. ἄξια τῆς μετανοίας ἔργα πράσσειν, Acts 26:20), b. advantage, profit, utility: Philippians 1:22; Philippians 4:17; ἔχειν καρπόν, to get fruit, Romans 1:13; Romans 6:21f; τῆς δικαιοσύνης, benefit arising from righteousness (others make it genitive of apposition, Winer’s Grammar, § 59, 8 a.), Hebrews 12:11; which consists in righteousness (genitive of apposition), James 3:18 (cf. Philippians 1:11 in a. above, and Meyer ad loc.; Proverbs 11:30; Amos 6:12).
Also, if you would have kept on reading you would have noticed that the very next passage is titled “True and False Disciples”. Jesus tells us that false disciples break God’s laws.
Matt 7:21,23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who DOES the will of my Father who is in heaven….Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. AWAY FROM ME YOU WHO BREAK GOD’S LAWS!”
So, not only is your “explanation” of the verse incorrect but the very next passage also renders your claim irrelevant.
“Therefore “BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM.”
Indeed, by their Karpos (works, deeds, acts) you will know them. Words can lie but fruit (works, deeds, acts) cannot lie.
This is why Jesus did not say “by their words you will know them”. The Scribes and Pharisees spoke very piously but their deeds were evil. They worshipped God with their lips but their actions showed that their hearts were far from God.
Gal 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who doe such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the KARPOS of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, FAITHFULNESS, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law
Evanvelical Pastor Greg Laurie says,
“Are you producing fruit? Or is the opposite true? Instead of love, is there hatred, bitterness, or even prejudice in your life? Instead of joy, is there constant gloom? Instead of peace, is there turmoil? Instead of gentleness, is there a short temper? Instead of faith, is there endless worry? Instead of meekness, is there pride and arrogance? Instead of self-control, are you a victim of your own passions? If so, then either you don’t know God at all or a recommitment to Christ would be in order.”
http://m.christianity.com/bible/disciples-of-jesus-are-known-by-their-fruit-11550555.html
You still have not answered the questions,
1. Which of God’s commandments is impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you?
2. If 2 Christians gather together in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they come to the conclusion that your beliefs are not Biblical, that you are a false teacher and that you are not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
3. Are your interpretations of the Bible perfect and free from all error? If not then how do you know what you have right and what you have wrong?
4. Where in the Bible does it say that dead faith brings eternal life?
God Bless,
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Snoop1e,
Naaa. Prophets speak God’s word. That is the context. And another way to find this out is by cross referencing Jesus’ teaching about fruit and trees in Mt.7 with the other places He teaches about trees and fruit.
That would be Mt.12. And He finishes by saying that “a tree is known by it’s fruit. For out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks”.
Mt.12:31-37
“Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
And whosoever SPEAKETH A WORD against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever SPEAKETH against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, SPEAK good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth SPEAKETH.
A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
But I say unto you, That every idle WORD that men shall SPEAK, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
For by thy WORDS thou shalt be justified, and by thy WORDS thou shalt be condemned.”
Just like those Jesus said He did not know.
All this is said in the same context of good or bad fruit from a good or bad tree that Mt.7 expresses.
Context, context, context 🙂 Known as Biblical hermeneutics.
Pastor Greg Laurie, Thayers Greek Lexicon, Strongs Concordance, and tens of thousands of “Bible Based” Christians utterly reject your claim that the Greek word Karpos means words and not deeds.
You are free to believe that God wants you to honor Him with your lips and not with your deeds but that is not biblical.
James 1:22
Be doers of the word, and not hearers only. Otherwise, you are deceiving yourselves.
Rom 2:5-7
But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life
Rom 2:13
It is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s eyes it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
Eph 5:5
For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person–such a person is an idolater–has ANY inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Rom 6:16
Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as OBEDIENT slaves, you are slaves OF THE ONE YOU OBEY—whether you are slaves to SIN, which leads to DEATH, or to OBEDIENCE, which leads to RIGHTEOUSNESS?
Gal 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy,d drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things WILL NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
1 John 2:3-4
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him
Rev 14:12
Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
Rev 12:17
Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring–those who keep God’s commandments and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
John 14:15
you love Me, you will keep My commandments
John 14:21
Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him.
John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and remain in His love.
1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome,
1 John 1:6
And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you: God is light, and IN HIM there is no darkness at all. If we say we are IN Him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But IF we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.…
Heb 5:9
and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for ALL WHO OBEY HIM
2 John 1:6
And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments…
You still have not answered the questions,
1. Which of God’s commandments is impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you?
2. If 2 Christians gather together in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they come to the conclusion that your beliefs are not Biblical, that you are a false teacher and that you are not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
3. Are your interpretations of the Bible perfect and free from all error? If not then how do you know what you have right and what you have wrong?
4. Where in the Bible does it say that dead faith brings eternal life?
God Bless,
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Snoop1e,
It’s no surprise that you can not go to the scripture in question and prove your theory. Because every time the scripture uses the allegory of the tree and it’s fruit it is teaching that the fruit is the words from your mouth. That’s why it says “By your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned”. Mt.12:37. And “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing(the outward/works), but INWARDLY (the heart) they are ravening wolves.”
Mt.7:15
You are the man that looks on the outward for justification. Jesus called that man a “ravening wolf”.
God looks on the heart. 1Sam.16:7
“every time the scripture uses the allegory of the tree and it’s fruit it is teaching that the fruit is the words from your mouth.”
That is absolutely false. You are either ignorant or lying.
EVERY time the scripture speaks of the tree and it’s fruit the Greek word used for fruit is Karpos.
Strongs Greek Concordance
Karpós
karpos: fruit
Original Word: καρπός, οῦ, ὁ
Short Definition: fruit, result, gain
Definition: fruit, DEED ACTION, result
Thayers Greek Lexicon defines Karpos as
“work, act, deed..used of men’s deeds. DEEDS REQUIRED FOR THE ATTAINMENT OF SALVATION IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD”
Equivalent to ἔργον, WORK, ACT, DEED:
Thayer’s Greek Lexicon sites the following verses as evidence.
Galatians 5:22
Ephesians 5:9
Philippians 1:11
John 15:8
John 15:16
Matt 7:16
Matt 7:20
James 3:17 – DEEDS REQUIRED FOR THE ATTAINMENT OF SALVATION IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD,
Matthew 21:43
Matthew 3:8
Luke 3:8
Acts 26:20,
Philippians 1:22
Philippians 4:17
Romans 1:13
Romans 6:21
Hebrews 12:11
James 3:18
I have yet to meet a Protestant who can answer these questions,
1. Which of God’s commandments is impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you?
2. If 2 Christians gather together in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they come to the conclusion that your beliefs are not Biblical, that you are a false teacher and that you are not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
3. Are your interpretations of the Bible perfect and free from all error? If not then how do you know what you have right and what you have wrong?
4. Where in the Bible does it say that dead faith brings eternal life?
God Bless,
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Snooop1e, which of the verses that you cite uses the tree/fruit allegory? Are you ignorant of the fact that trees are not the only things that bear fruit (fields, vineyards, loins)? You have not proven Ed to be ignorant or a liar: Context, context, context vs. copy and paste.
Matt 7 is about false prophets (bad trees) and what they say vs. true prophets (good trees) and what they say and not how they appear. These false prophets cloth themselves (hmm like Adam and Eve) in self righteousness yet do not speak for God. Bad trees cannot produce any good fruit and good trees cannot produce any bad fruit. I assume you consider yourself a good tree therefore you produce no bad fruit? I don’t consider that I am a prophet so I am not in the pickle that your interpretation has put you in.
That’s what I was trying to say Rascott. Thanks brother:-) Well said!
Blessings:-}
Ed, I would never presume to speak for you, you do a great job on your own. I just couldn’t let the constant twisting and accusations go on without a saying something. Glad I did not step on your toes. Blessings to you brother.
Your 4 questions are constantly being answered only you don’t realize it. You want a line item (scripture doesn’t always work that way) here goes.
1. Honestly, it’s none of your business. Which have you obeyed perfectly with “Christ in you”? Be specific!
2. The Bible is the authority. Where is it written that 2 Christians gathered in Christ name trumps what is written? What was the authority over Israel? Two Israelites? No the word of God was authority? So why would I let the RCC, any denomination or 2 Christians trump the word of God?
3. No but you have not successfully refuted any of them because you can’t stay in context.
4. Faith without works is still faith because faith ≠ to works. We are justified by faith. This has been explained to you, so has passing from death to life by believing and being counted as righteous by faith and not coming into judgment. But you want a verse that says “dead faith gives life”. The only time “dead faith” is used is in an epistle to “brothers” who have faith therefore have life—they were in danger of not living that life in the temporal sense. “Saved” does not always mean justified — saved from hell. There are many things to be saved from after being declared righteous and being given life. “Saved” mean delivered.
“Snooop1e, which of the verses that you cite uses the tree/fruit” allegory?
The Greek word Karpos means works, actions, deeds.
“Are you ignorant of the fact that trees are not the only things that bear fruit (fields, vineyards, loins)?”
No
“You have not proven Ed to be ignorant or a liar: Context, context, context vs. copy and paste.”
I do not know if Ed is ignorant or a liar Only God knows. I copy and paste scripture in order to preserve it’s integrity. Not only that but why type when you can copy and paste? Funny how you reject God’s perfect commandments but then condemn me for posting scriptures.
“Matt 7 is about false prophets (bad trees) and what they say”
Where does the Bible tell us “what Matt 7 is about”?
“Bad trees cannot produce any good fruit and good trees cannot produce any bad fruit.”
AMEN!!!
“I assume you consider yourself a good tree therefore you produce no bad fruit?”
Why do you assume that?
“I don’t consider that I am a prophet so I am not in the pickle that your interpretation has put you in.”
Is your statement above perfect and without error?
God Bless,
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments
-Jesus
Where do your comments tell me what your comments are about? In the text obviously! Do you expect Jesus to say “ok this is about…” You are trying real hard to not listen to God’s word.
I assume you consider yourself a good tree because you have interrupted “good tree” as believer. As a believer (good tree) you cannot produce bad fruit according to your interpretation of Matt 7.
* interrupted no interpreted (auto correct and not paying attention)
BTW I don’t condemn you for anything. I know you are sincere. But sincere won’t cut it come judgment time and it won’t be me doing the judging. . You can skip the judgment like John 5 says. Belief is being persuaded that something is true. Jesus satisfied the righteous requirements to judge and give life. He gives everlasting life to all who believe in Him for it. Yet it’s a fallen world with fallen saints and fallen unbelievers; there is plenty incentive to follow His (Jesus’) commands to having life abundantly. But those commands do not give life. Faith does. The commands help us live life.
“Where do your comments tell me what your comments are about?”
No where, that is precisely my point. You admit that your interpretations of scripture are imperfect and subject to error but at the same time you tell others that they misinterpret the scriptures and YOU correctly interpret the scriptures. This is why I ask the question, what good is an imperfect understanding of God’s perfect word? Can the blind lead the blind?
“You are trying real hard to not listen to God’s word.”
For quite some time now you have been trying real hard to convince me not to keep God’s commandments and then you accuse me of “trying real hard not to listen to God’s word.” If your GPS in your car tells you to go left but you go right have you “listened” to your GPS? Have you “followed” it?
Rom 2:13
It is not those who HEAR the law who are righteous in God’s sight it is those who OBEY the law who will be declared righteous.
James 1:21
Therefore, get rid of ALL moral filth and EVERY expression of evil, and humbly RECEIVE the word planted in you, which can save your souls. BE DOERS OF THE WORD AND NOT SIMPLY HEARERS OF THE WORD. Otherwise, YOU ARE DECEIVING YOURSELVES.
James 2:14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no works? Can such faith save him?
Jeremiah 11:6
And the LORD said to me, “Proclaim all these words in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Hear the words of this covenant AND DO THEM.
Luke 6:46
Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ BUT NOT DO WHAT I SAY?
James 4:11
Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the Law and judges it. And if you judge the Law, you are not a practitioner of the Law, but a judge of it.
Matt 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to OBEY EVERYTHING I HAVE COMMANDED YOU.
“I assume you consider yourself a good tree”
1 Cor 4
…I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes.
James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you–who are you to judge your neighbor?
Psalm 75:7
It is God alone who judges; he decides who will rise and who will fall.
1 John 2:4
Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not DO what he commands IS A LIAR and the truth is not in that person.
Why are you a stumbling block to your brothers who would obey God? Why do you reject the keeping of God’s commandments and then accuse your brother for obeying God’s commandments?
“BTW I don’t condemn you for anything.”
I see. I believe that Jesus Christ is Lord. Am I “saved” or “condemned”? Is my belief in Jesus sufficient to save me?
“But sincere won’t cut it come judgment time and it won’t be me doing the judging”
Amen!!! Repent and obey the Gospel, the kingdom of God is at hand.
“Yet it’s a fallen world with fallen saints”
There is no such thing as “fallen saints”, Saints are alive IN Christ. All those who reject God and choose to live according to the flesh and not according to the spirit have fallen from grace, they are no longer saints.
Heb 6:4
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have FALLEN AWAY, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace
“there is plenty incentive to follow His (Jesus’) commands”
Indeed
John 14:15
If you love me, keep my commands.
“But those commands do not give life. Faith does.”
You keep arguing a point that I have never stated. I agree with you, obeying the commandments does not merit eternal life AND the saints keep God’s commandments and keep faith in Jesus Christ.
Rev 14:12
Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus
I have no doubt that you sin-cerely believe in Jesus and want to spend eternity with Him. As to whether or not you truly love Him (Matt 14:15) or know Him (1 John 2:3) only God knows. I hope and pray that you do. My point of posting God’s Word is not simply to provoke people to anger. Jesus and the Apostles told people to repent and obey the Gospel and for this the people hated them and tortured and killed them. Jesus and the Apostles were not tortured and murdered because they told people they could ignore God’s commandments and simply “believe” in Jesus and go to heaven. Jesus and the Apostles were tortured and murdered because they told people to REPENT AND OBEY THE GOSPEL.
“The commands help us live life.”
God’s perfect commandments instruct us HOW to love God and HOW to love neighbor. It is not possible to love God and/or love eachother without keeping God’s commandments.
If we put aside God’s perfect commandments we are left to rely on our own insight. We are tossed about by every wind of doctrine. We invent our own morality according to our own intellect. In doing so we recreate God in our own image. God’s ways are not our ways. Hence God’s perfect instructions/commandments. God does not leave us orphans trying to figure out how to live our lives. He has given us EXPLICIT instructions. If we are stubborn and choose to ignore God’s perfect instructions – we do not know Him and we do not love Him. We do not live in truth.
Rom 2:5
But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, HE WILL GIVE ETERNAL LIFE. But for those who are self-seeking and who REJECT THE TRUTH AND FOLLOW EVIL, there will be wrath and anger.
This is why I ask you which of God’s commandments is not true? Which of God’s commandments are impossible for us to obey with Christ IN us? When us God unfaithful?
1 Cor 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will always provide a way out so that you can endure it.
Think about this for a moment, if God condemned all of mankind to eternal punishment for disobeying commandments that are IMPOSSIBLE to keep then God condemned all of mankind for not doing the impossible. That is not perfect justice.
“There is no context behind the copy in pasting and context is essential for understanding meaning.”
Does God need my/your imperfect words to explain His perfect Words? The moment you endeavor to “explain” God’s perfect Words with your imperfect words you have fallen from Grace. You have imagined that God is incapable of explaining himself and His words are lacking. You are saying “God didn’t do a very good job of explaining Himself so I will do it for Him” By what authority do you (an imperfect sinner) presume to tell God what He means? You say you are not a prophet but then you “teach” people the meaning of God’s Words. That is what Prophets did/do.
This is why I ask the questions, not to trick you but to hear your answers. I have yet to hear a sound biblical reason for rejecting/disobeying God’s perfect commandments. God tells us to question everything and put it to the test.
So I ask the questions,
1. Which of God’s commandments is impossible for US to obey with Christ IN us?
2. If 2 Christians gather together in Jesus name and after reading the Bible they come to the conclusion that OUR explanations of God’s Word are not Biblical, that WE are a false teachers and that WE are not truly saved who is correct and who decides?
3. If OUR interpretations of the Bible are imperfect and subject to error then how do you WE know what WE have right and what WE have wrong?
4. Where in the Bible does it say that dead faith brings eternal life?
God Bless,
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Snooopie. Why these long winded answers, that doesn’t change my mind.
Under John 14:15. You said,” You keep arguing a point that I have never stated. I agree with, obeying the commandments does not merit eternal life and the saints keep God’s commandments and keep faith in Jesus Christ.
To me that contradict when you end this comment with,” If you want to enter life, keep the commandments,”
Jesus
“Not only that but why type when you can copy and paste?” You miss what I mean, sorry. The act of copy and pasting is not what I am attacking. There is no context behind the copy in pasting and context is essential for understanding meaning.
Snooop1e I continue to pray that scripture isn’t a verse here and a verse there for you.
The words “if you want to enter life, keep the commandments” are not my words they are Jesus words. God cannot contradict Himself so there is no contradiction in Jesus words. It is your interpretation/beliefs that introduce a contradiction.
I accept Jesus words, no “explanations” required. No contradictions exist. Perfect in every way.
Because your beliefs put aside the “keeping the commandments” you see contradiction in Jesus words. There are no contradictions, only your refusal to put aside your tradition and accept Jesus perfect words.
Jesus tells you to keep the commandments and you accuse Jesus of contradiction. That is sad.
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Snooop1e:First, forgive me for this long post. I have a couple of questions for you. Do you believe that Romans 8:1-4 describes the basic course of what a Christian life should be like? In quoting this passage I think that it is essential to quote from a version that is translated from the majority text, as other versions leave out key words that make a big difference. :Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, WHO DO NOT LIVE ACCORDING TO THE SINFUL NATURE, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death, For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man, to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, IN ORDER THAT THE RIGHTEOUS REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULLY MET IN US,WHO DO NOT LIVE ACCORDING TO THE SINFUL NATURE BUT ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT.”
It seems to me that this passage teaches that there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus who do not live according to the sinful nature. In other words faith and repentance are both essential to salvation. The whole point of our being saved is so that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. In other words a life of repentance, change, a turning from sin.
My next question would be related to when Christians do sin which it is obvious we all do. 1 John 1:7-2:2 seems most relevant here: :BUT IF WE WALK IN THE LIGHT, AS HE IS IN THE LIGHT,WE HAVE FELLOWSHIP WITH ONE ANOTHER,AND THE BLOOD OF JESUS,HIS SON, PURIFIES US OF ALL SIN. ( To me this passage teaches that only as we attempt to walk with him in obedience are we cleansed from our sins. We have to have a repentant heart to receive the continued cleansing.) If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves,and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness. (Again the emphasis on a repentant heart to receive constant forgiveness.) If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense_-Jesus Christ the Righteous. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for our sins, but for the sins of the whole world. ( Once again I see a continual need of cleansing here. Faith and repentance must be one continuous lifelong act. Without a life of intending to obey the Lord through the Spirit, followed by continuous repentance and confession of sin there is no salvation. We are indeed saved by faith, but it is a living, ongoing, continuous faith. Through the spirit we desire to obey the Lord, but the blood covers us when we fail. This is not works. In the Bible works are man’s effort to justify himself. How can total dependence on the Spirit to obey the Lord’s requirements followed by God’s mercy through the cleansing blood of Jesus when we fail, ever be considered a work? I believe in the finished work of Christ on the cross, but it sure seems to me that application of that finished work has to be applied to our walk with Christ for the rest of our lives. I close with Colossians 1 :21-23a: “ONCE YOU WERE ALIENATED FROM GOD AND WERE ENEMIES IN YOUR MINDS BECAUSE OF YOUR EVIL BEHAVIOR. BUT NOW HE HAS RECONCILED YOU BY CHRIST’S PHYSICAL BODY THROUGH DEATH TO PRESENT YOU HOLY IN HIS SIGHT WITHOUT BLEMISH AND FREE FROM ACCUSATION-IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, ESTABLISHED AND FIRM, NOT MOVED FROM THE HOPE HELD OUT IN THE GOSPEL.” The words: if you continue are used multiple times of our faith in Christ. We run the course and finish the race by his grace. Let me know what you think. God bless.
We all need to get off this site and go out and love on people!
Mychal Santana,I try to understand what you are trying to say, ……………. I give up.
yes the true worshiper must do it in SPIRIT and TRUTH. 2 opinions at the well .Christ and a samaritan woman .you jews say jerusalem only worship place. she states jacob her father dug this well and we know MESSIAH will come. same problem today but aon a larger scale. she knew MESSIAH was coming the jews didnt. Every one wants to split hairs on here but the real battel is out there not in here. a lot of mt24 false teachers /prophets /christs.. these are the words of christ himself or CHRIST the MESSIAH whos prophetical name is IMMANUEL. GOD IS WITH US. the time is here and now for the mothers /fathers /bros / sist to be at each other to even betray one another thinking they are helping GOD and his plan of salvation for the world but are really resisting GODS PLAN in and through CHRIST the only one who can save us. Just a point here CHRIST said where 2 or 3 are gathered in his NAME ????????? and aggree he is in the midst of them EMMANUEL. division does not achieve anything . Lets start by agreeing with his WORDS not OURS .SELAH?????.His WORD will not return VOID to the one who sent it and recieved it AMEN.
Hi Brother I just get on sites like this to see what people are thinking, to clarify my own thinking. I try to be respectful although I know know not all here are. There is a lot of error out there, but not everybody who sees error is praying for those in error. I am an active member of my church. We go out into a park every week to have a service for anyone who will listen. Sometimes people do, other times they don’t, but we’re trying. Its not easy to be a witness in a culture where most people don’t care. The issues of eternal salvation are like a foreign language to many people. The basic gospel is simple ( mere christianity.) Working out doctrinal details afterwards is not always so easy. Catholic-Protestant,Conservative-Liberal, Calvinist-Arminian, Dispensationalist-Covenantal, Cessationalist-Charismatic (Pentecostal). But I try to think, pray, and talk to others as I attempt to work out my salvation down here on earth with fear and trembling. Blessings to you.
That’s a nice bumper sticker slogan but it does nothing to answer the question how does one “follow” Jesus Christ and how does one enter eternal life?
Back in 2011 a woman who was pregnant with conjoined Twins called in to Chuck Smiths radio show (Pastors Perspective) and asked if she could abort (murder) her twins and Chuck Smith told her that she could abort them and God would forgive her.
Life is much more complex than “love on someone”.
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Snooop1e,
I will answer a few of your questions if you will answer a few simple ones from me:
1- Do you agree with the statement, “We are saved by faith alone, but saving faith is never alone.”? (Faith always results in works (fruit) and those who have faith, will work; but we are “saved by faith… (and our salvation) is not of works.” (Ephesians 2:8-9) “But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,” Romans 4:5.
2- Do you agree that the Roman Catholic Church (i.e.- it’s leaders, some of the Popes) has committed horrible atrocities? (Murdering each other, and murdering millions in the Crusades, etc.)
3- Seeing that the Popes have been so extremely fallible, how can you know that the current Pope is infallible? Isn’t that what they thought about the Popes that killed each other and ordered the murders of millions of protestants?
4- Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life.” Do you believe that the Roman Catholic Church saves people?
Concerning this (snoop1e) …. it is quit obvious that this man is a Jesuit ; trained by ROME !!to cause dispute among the brotheren ? We are not ignorant of the devils devices ? By your Protestant remarks and your law keeping Sacramento: from the pits of HELL !! You are who Jesus warned us about as other jesuits and popes , priests , bishops , cardinals who come to you in sheep clothing but underneath are RAVINOUS WOLVES !! Beware of them !! , they come in long qowns , maskerading as men of righteousness but underneath are twice the children of HELL !! After two rebukes of blasphemy from this lost soul Jesuit of ROME ….turn away knowing that he is unlearned , unstable and knowing nothing !! A REPROBATE CONCERNING THE FAITH !! Countless millions have been tortured , burned at the stake , slaughtered by these type spirited men of the devil , they come as if they are called to defend Gods word ? But they are not called but to cause death and destruction as their father the devil has taught them to do thru satans church on earth the Roman Catholic synagogue of satans domain : ye shall know them by their fruits !! REBUKE THEM SHARPLY THAT WALK IN DARKNESS AND CANNOT SEE THE LIGHT …. the millions of Christian’s before us had to deal with these children of the devil and paid for it with blood and losing their life !! But gained eternal life thru persecution,, this snooope Jesuit would love to see the protestants burn again and be tortured , his father Satan is a murderer and he follows in his footsteps to try and bring us Protestants into their bondage and deceptions / praise be Jesus Christ the Son of God who came down from heaven and by power of the Holy Spirit we are able to discern these jesuits of Rome !! Rome is coming back full circle again / infiltrating the Protestant church’s / praise be to the men who stand against this foe and advasary !! Who lead the sheep out of the Lions den before they devour them !! Praise be to the Lord Jesus Christ who opens blinded eyes that they might see ; and ears that they might hear with !! These like snooop are wicked and evil men be not dismayed by them , they know they are going into HELL !! They just want alll of you to join them by their deceptive words they spin ? These demons of HELL control them night and day to attack and tear apart the true followers of Christ Jesus … they have swore an oath to the destruction of the Protestant church ( Jesuit creed ) ,,, read it online !! It is written against us !! Beware beware in these last days more and more of them shall come and enter in unaware among you and bring in damnable heresy , even denying our Lord who bought them .. from such turn away and flee from these enemies of the cross!!!
cross – is ancient symbol. cross and crucifix – not the same.
If I was told by a Calvary chapel ‘staff’ pastor I cannot attend their church [in the association it is now in 2017] without coming from breaking laws or hurting anything ,, it does not make sense I was told I cannot attend a certain Calvary Chapel when even so I was in it originally to the 1980s ..so I am asking for help in this or if I need to how can I get back in the loop even though I did nothing wrong ?? I am just a person saved and not a pastor and I do not think I deserve that .If you want proof I was in it , I know it has to exist some where as I am not lying . That pastor was not nice . I am thinking if may be I was misunderstood , but as to what I stand for , I am not into false teaching whatsoever and I am very much in the Word always and certainly am saved .The Lord knows I read much Christian things because I am into the Lord. I still do not even know what happened how I would deserve anything. I cannot of done something bad that deserves that and I would know if some sin was done .
OR cannot the pastors or folks make some agreement for now I can use their bookstores ? Like I shared I started in \Calvary Chapels . Please help . At least pray for me for my situation . IF allowed and not imposing I will leave my number [JOE, THIS IS THE EDITOR. I REMOVED YOUR PHONE NUMBER – IT’S NOT SAFE TO PUT YOUR NUMBER ON WEBSITES OR SOCIAL MEDIA. THANKS FOR UNDERSTANDING.] I just want to be in the loop .
Joe,
I’m having a bit of trouble understanding, you say a Calvary Chapel pastor told you you couldn’t attend? Why? If that’s the case, find another church near by, but be careful as most churches are compromised, make sure they teach from scripture, don’t be afraid to ask questions, compare what the pastors are saying/teaching to what your bible says. MOST IMPORTANTLY, PRAY, PRAY and PRAY! Ask God for wisdom and discernment to see and hear! Ask God to guide your feet in the proper path. Never stop reading your bible! Maybe The Lord is moving you away from that particular congregation.
I will make a comment on last year’s Harvest Crusade at Anaheim Stadium in California with Greg Laurie. He hosted Mel Gibson enthusiastically, primarily because of his “Passion Of The Christ” movie. There is so much which everyone there, and all of you, need to know about America’s film industry (this also applies to televisoon, and some Indie and foreign films). I am speaking of these productions coming from collusion with the Government. In August 2016 – during the Crusade, as a matter of fact – Senator Dianne Feinstein laid it out, that the films are produced collusively with America’s intelligence agencies. Yes, they would do this, and yes tghey do. take, for example, the 1998 film, “Enemy Of The State”, where actor Jon Voight’s NSA character was born on September 11th, and Gene Hackman and Will Smith dicusss the coming takedown of the Twin Towers.
I can’t post a book-lenth commentary here, so I will indecently skip to the point – even the “Passion Of The Christ” film is to be understood differently than those at the Crusade and most of you would see it. And “Braveheart” and all the other Scottish- and Irish-themed films of recent decades had their origin in real-world events in Ireland, the U.K., and even in America (where the Coldstream Guards who held William Street on Bloody Sunday in 1972, conducted a national USA musical tour, bagpipes included, during 1981 when IRA hunger strikers were dying daily at Long Kesh prison. The tour’s final pefformance was at the Anaheim Convention Center, about a mile from the annual Harvest Crusade.
There is very much more to tell here. Very much. Put away your naivete and lack of understanding. The church’s leadership, as far as I am concerned, is horribly unresponsive to input from other members of the Body of Christ…..say, like myself (I have written to Greg Laurie and another CC leader).
All this said, don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. Just don’t let your dear brothers in Christ get you killed. Ho ho. Now shall we all pray? So much at stake.
“and then call your local Catholic Church and tell whoever answers the phone that you are ready to become a true follower of Jesus Christ”
Yeah The Roman Catholic Church!
Still promoting conspiracy theories lyn? suggesting that Arminianism is somehow apart of a catholic plot? someone forgot to tell the independent baptists that they need to knee before the pope!
How sad that “Christianity” in America has become so perverted that preaching obedience to God makes someone a “minion of Satan”.
Satan is brilliant and has convinced so many people that they can rebel against God and ignore his commandments and still inherit eternal life. The Bible prophecies that in the end times men’s intellect will be darkened and they will become lovers of themselves and live according to the flesh.
Was Paul crucified for you? We’re you Baptised in the name of Paul? You worship Paul not Jesus. You ignore Jesus the Master and put your faith in a perverted interpretation of Paul’s letters. The Bible warns that ignorant and unstable people will twist Paul’s letters to their own destruction falling from salvation (2 Peter 3:16), (2 Peter 3:17)
The Bible also warns that unprincipled men will pervert God’s grace into a license for sin. These Bible passages are speaking of YOU! All of you who preach the lie that a person can disobey God and live according to the flesh and inherit the kingdom of God. This is not biblical. The Apostle Paul warns,
Eph 5:5
5For of this YOU CAN BE SURE: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has ANY inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are DISOBEDIENT. 7Therefore do not be partners with them.
You believe and teach a false gospel and you so at your own peril. Paul is the servant not the Master. Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior not Paul. Your dark heart chooses the perverted Palinist gospel that says you can’t love sin more than God and inherit eternal life.
You have accepted the false Paul-ian gospel that says Christ-ians do not have to follow Jesus teachings in the Gospels but only need listen to Paul.
Repent and obey the Gospel (JESUS teachings) the kingdom of God is at hand, Paul cannot and will not save you come judgement day. You WILL face Jesus judgement seat.
1 Peter 4:17
17For it is time for judgment to begin WITH THE FAMILY OF GOD; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God?18And,
“IF IT IS HARD FOR THE RIGHTEOUS TO BE SAVED, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”
Repent and obey Jesus, the kingdom of God is at hand! Stop teaching sinful salvation and follow Jesus Christ before it’s too late.
“If you want to enter life, keep the comnandments”
-Jesus
For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that NOT of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man boast. Eph 2:8-9
Now since we know God’s word does not contradict, then we must have a right understanding of the role obedience plays. Do we have to obey in order to be saved? No, we obey, NOT perfectly, because we are saved. For the Satanic RCC, obedience is played up as a MUST in order to work on being saved. How sad for the one who continually beats themselves up trying to walk in perfect obedience – which is not humanly possible. Praise the Lord for His saving grace, freeing the sinner from the bondage of sin and imputing the perfect righteousness of Christ to His elect.
Cherry picking verses is a popular technique, all dead religions do it. Sadly, it leads its followers down the broad road. Who was Christ talking to when he said, ‘depart from me, you worker of iniquity’? The ‘religious’….
“we obey, NOT perfectly, because we are saved”
Matt 5:48
But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.
“How sad for the one who continually beats themselves up trying to walk in perfect obedience – which is not humanly possible”
Luke 1:6
Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing ALL the Lord’s commandments and decrees blamelessly.
Job 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job, and that man was BLAMELESS and UPRIGHT, one who feared God and turned away from evil.
Gen 6:9
…Noah was a RIGHTEOUS man, BLAMELESS among the people of his time, and he WALKED FAITHFULLY with God.
“Praise the Lord for His saving grace, freeing the sinner from the bondage of sin”
You cannot walk in sin and be freed from it’s bondage. If you are walking in sin you are in bondage to sin and sin is your master. You cannot serve 2 masters. You will love one and hate the other.
John 8:34
Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.
Rom 6:16
Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey–whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to DEATH, or to OBEDIENCE, which leads to RIGHTEOUSNESS?
“and imputing the perfect righteousness of Christ to His elect”
No where does the Bible ever use the word “imputed” or “imputed righteousness” this is a man made phrase imposed upon scripture in order to defend a false man made doctrine.
“Cherry picking verses is a popular technique, all dead religions do it. Sadly, it leads its followers down the broad road”
You mean like you cherry picked Eph 2:8-9 to teach disobedience salvation while ignoring Eph 5:5 which explicitly stated that those who disobey God do not have ANY inheritance in the kingdom of God?
Eph 5:5
For of this YOU CAN BE SURE: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has ANY inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.7Therefore do not be partners with them.
Why do you receive people with empty words? Why do you teach that temptation and sin are more powerful that Christ within you?
You say that keeping Gods commandments is impossible. So tell me, (tell God) which of God’s 10 Commandments is impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you?
“Who was Christ talking to when he said, ‘depart from me, you worker of iniquity’?”
Jesus was talking to those who work iniquity, those who preach righteousness but secretly serve sin. The fact that they were Scribes and Pharisees is irrelevant. Jesus condemned them for their sinful lives not for being religious.
Everything you have been taught and believe about salvation is based on a perverted interpretation of Paul’s writings. Paul is the servant not the Master. JESUS is our Lord and Savior not Paul. Follow Jesus and He will give you the grace to understand Paul. Follow Paul and teach people to disobey Jesus and you cut yourself off from God’s grace and your intellect becomes darkened.
Paul does not contradict Jesus. You have it backwards, you understand Jesus in the light of Paul when you should be understanding Paul by the light of Jesus.
Now run to Paul again and post some more verses from Paul that you THINK say you can disobey God’s 10 Commandments and still inherit eternal life.
6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
1 John 3:7
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.
As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord (Jesus)
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
P.S.
1 John 2:4
Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Pushing a RCC works based agenda is wearing thing here, NO ONE is buying your ‘religion’. Cherry picking verses and pulling them out of context to fit your works based agenda is called ‘eisegesis’.
P.S.
1 John 2:4
Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
-Jesus
Can’t answer the question huh? Funny thing, Paulist’ s never do.
The Bible says we can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens us. Yet you deny that Christ IN you is more powerful than temptation and sin. You DENY the power of Christ IN you and teach that God’s perfect commandments are impossible to obey. You elevate temptation and sin above the power of Christ.
Which of God’s commandments is impossible for you to obey with Christ IN you?
“Not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but ONLY the one who DOES the will of my Father in Heaven”
-Jesus
Nice try, but I am NOT taking the bait. Brother Manny already warned me about you. All your false accusations are simply that….false. Do move on….
Manny1962 August 13, 2017 at 5:50 pm #
Hi Lyn, I hope you’re doing well!
This person is an apologist for the RCC. He’s (or she) is going try and engage you in RCC propaganda and will end the ludicrous barrage with:
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments”
again, move along…
Examine yourself, snoop, whether you are in the faith and keep the commandments of the Lord Jesus or not:
Do you call the pope “father”? I know you do, being the good catholic that you are; I also know that when you call the pope “father” you are in rebellion against the Lord Jesus who said: “Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven” Matt. 23:9
Do you worship Mary as the co-redeemer who is above the Lord Jesus? I know that you do, being the good catholic that you are. You, as a ‘student’ of the Bible, should know how much the Lord Jesus hates idols and those that worship them so when did you discard Mary as your idol?
Do you reject the commandments of God in order to keep the traditions of Rome and your ‘father’ pope? I know that you do, being the good catholic that you are. You kill the Lord Jesus afresh by your tradition of the ‘mass’ and you eat things sacrificed to your idol jesus every time you ‘celebrate’ your pagan tradition. Mark 7:9; Rev. 2:14 & 20. Rev. 17:1-18 gives an apt, accurate, and somewhat detailed description of the “Mother of Harlots” that you bow before, worship and obey. Christ died ONCE for the sins of the elect, not the millions (billions?) of times you have “killed Him afresh” by your satanic tradition Heb. 9:24-26.
Do you pursue holiness? I know that you do not, being the good idol worshipping catholic that you are. Yet without holiness no man shall see the Lord. Heb. 12:14.
Do you rebel against the words of the Lord Jesus “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand”—Matt. 4:17. I know that you do rebel against His words, for you have written hundreds of words that attest to that fact, your idol worship is open and plain for all to see.
Have you obeyed the most important command given to man by the Lord Jesus? I know that you have not, being the good catholic that you are. John 3:3-8. “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN.'” The tradition of your ‘fathers’ has done away with the necessity of the new birth. They have replaced the new birth with their fantasy doctrines of demons that man may enter the kingdom of God by keeping the Ten Commandments, by being and doing “good”, by side stepping repentance and faith in the crucified and RISEN Savior (why do you and other catholics depict Christ as still on the cross and not risen from the dead? because the one that you worship is a fraud, not the real RISEN SAVIOR), and by an act of their “free-will” negate the necessity of being born again by the Spirit of God. This “free-will” doctrine of demons has permeated every facet of Christendom and was born of your father, the devil and his ‘vicar’ on earth, the pope. “Free-will” is the battle cry of all ecumenical with Rome at the head of the charge.
Time to lay down your idols and rebellion against the RISEN SAVIOR. Repent and be born again by the Spirit of God. May God grant you the gift of repentance and the gift of faith so that you may escape His wrath.
Ralph Woodrow wrote a book, now out of print, entitled ‘Babylon Mystery Religion’ available to read at https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1x-PUWIRectUC1NTFRvVUFYU3c/view
In this book, he lays out the pagan origin and roots of the Roman Catholic Church, being traced back to Nimrod. It makes for an interesting read and gives deeper insight into this satanic church known as the RCC.
This series –
Know Your Enemy (Part 23 – Roman Catholicism)
https://youtu.be/221sYyagu2I?list=PLCED9C361662866BD
Or here –
LECTURES ON THE BOOK OF REVELATION
H. A. Ironside, Litt.D.
http://www.baptistbiblebelievers.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=a6HohNRezIM%3d&tabid=325&mid=1065
Excellent read Q! Written in 1919!
Anyone who was delivered from Romanism can see and identify with the following:
“The image of the queen of heaven with the babe in her arms was seen everywhere, though the
names might differ as languages differed. It became the mystery-religion of Phoenicia, and by
the Phoenicians was carried to the ends of the earth. Ashtoreth and Tammuz, the mother and
child of these hardy adventurers, became Isis and Horus in Egypt, Aphrodite and Eros in Greece,
Venus and Cupid in Italy, and bore many other names in more distant places. Within 1000 years
Babylonianism had become the religion of the world, which had rejected the Divine revelation.
Linked with this central mystery were countless lesser mysteries, the hidden meaning of which
was known only to the initiates, but the outward forms were practiced by all the people. Among
these were the doctrines of:
-purgatorial purification after death,
– salvation by countless sacraments such as priestly absolution,
– sprinkling with holy water,
– the offering of round cakes to the queen of heaven as mentioned in the book of Jeremiah,
– dedication of virgins to the gods, which was literally sanctified prostitution,
– weeping for Tammuz for a period of 40 days.”
And to make this more pungent, Rick Warren, Bill Hybels and countless other apostates are pleading with people to embrace Rome! There is no doubt, none, in my mind that Romanism is Mystery Babylon, the false prophet will rise from her ranks and the Beast will be worshipped by her followers.
Hey manny, there was an overwhelming consensus in the 1800s and early 1900s, among dispensational authors, that the pope would be the antichrist. As dispensationalism became passé in the 1900s with an influx of the social gospel proponents, the idea of an antichrist pope and the RCC as the beast system was ridiculed as no more than merely assigning those roles to one’s enemy.
Hey B! As history rushes to a close things get better defined, as I’ve posted before, the Kings of the East have their inroads to the middle East through Persia. Turkey, Persia, and Syria, all named in scripture ready to attack Israel, the king of the North is in Syria, the amazing Great Apostasy is in full swing, Rome is sitting on her seven mountains holding hands with all the world’s pagan religions and Churchianity. Jerusalem a cup of trembling to the world as men tries to divide God’s inheritance to Israel! America, not defined in scripture: the worship of Mammon, social unrest, corrupt politics, greed, drug culture, a complete rejection of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, an apostate church, infanticide, occult practices everywhere, lawlessness, moral terpitude, a cesspool of homosexuality and the only reason it hasn’t been completely overturned is because there’s a little bit if salt left, very little. Yes my friend with each passing day judgement gets closer.
Hi Belorac:
I tend to agree. Humanity has been demonizing their perceived enemies from almost the beginning, within a generation or two of Adam and Eve leaving the Garden of Eden. My research so far has convinced me that Alexander Hislop’s “Two Babylons” is more of the same and that anyone using his flawed claims are just as wrong. Still, it makes for an interesting conspiracy theory and people have always loved a good conspiracy theory.
Hey B!
Did some research into The Two Babylons, all based on conjecture and flawed premise by Hislop. Interesting indeed, some of the similarities between the occult and Rome are still very interesting.
Seeking and Manny, The Two Babylons has come under much criticism, indeed. I’m not sure all of this criticism is warranted. Hislop’s work notwithstanding, Rome still fits the bill so far as eschatology is concerned. The Roman Empire is the fourth empire of Nebuchadnezzar’s image, and the revived Roman Empire is the final state of Gentile rule that will be smote by the Rock (Daniel 2). As well, we know that the people who destroyed the Temple were Romans and they will be the people from whom the “prince” will come — this is the Antichrist (Daniel 9:26-27).
And then there’s Mystery Babylon, the occult, and the syncretism of the papacy with the world. All of this fits the bill better than anything else that has ever come along.
B, I totally agree with your assessment, there’s no other religious institute that fits the bill like Rome, none. There’s no doubt in my mind, papal worship is practiced by the Vatican faithful worldwide, even discounting the Madonna/child-Semiramis/Tammuz similarities, the Vatican is rife with occult symbols, all one need do is travel there and walk around. That’s no conspiracy.
Really informative.I binged watched the Revelation series, I don’t agree with the speculation that the 200 million man army could be Islamic in nature, I believe the Bible is clear in saying the army is from the Kings of the East, China can very easily raise a 200 million man army alone, but you’ll have the Koreas, Japan, Thailand, etc., etc……… overall very well done. The segment on Romanism is bewildering, the connection between it and Islam is surreal.
Lyn I am not sure if you are aware of it or not but Ralph Woodrow retracted and dissociated himself from what he wrote in his book, Babylon, Mystery Religion, before he died. He came to the conclusion that much of the research of Alexander Hislop in his famous anti-Catholic book, The Two Babylons was in many places erroneous.Many modern critiques of Cathocism rely upon Hislop.
http://www.ukapologetics.net/1hislopbaby.html
http://www.ralphwoodrow.org/books/pages/babylon-mystery.html
There are many reasons to disagree with Catholic teaching from a Biblical point of view but I would be very cautious basing your research upon the writings ofAlexander Hislop.
Actually, it isn’t my research, it was quoted in a sermon from Pastor Ken Wimer. I merely put it out there for any who may be interested.
As for the RCC, there is no doubt this dead religion will play a huge role in the end times ‘religion’ that will be ecumenical. I agree with Berlorac’s comment, “Seeking and Manny, The Two Babylons has come under much criticism, indeed. I’m not sure all of this criticism is warranted. Hislop’s work notwithstanding, Rome still fits the bill so far as eschatology is concerned. The Roman Empire is the fourth empire of Nebuchadnezzar’s image, and the revived Roman Empire is the final state of Gentile rule that will be smote by the Rock (Daniel 2). As well, we know that the people who destroyed the Temple were Romans and they will be the people from whom the “prince” will come — this is the Antichrist (Daniel 9:26-27).
And then there’s Mystery Babylon, the occult, and the syncretism of the papacy with the world. All of this fits the bill better than anything else that has ever come along.”
Hello sister,
“The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.” Jeremiah 7:18 (KJV)”
Who uses the term “Queen of Heaven?” Who worships ‘The Queen of Heaven?” Hislop might have been wrong in methodology, but his thesis was and is correct. If one sees how the RCC worships and venerates idols proves without a doubt that the RCC is the Mystery Babylon harlot. Also, the “Madonna and child” statues are represented in various ancient pagan civilizations, just like the Great Flood is mentioned by diverse ancient civilizations. I just find it interesting that so many pagans from early history have a queen with a child sitting on them.
Hey Lyn one more thing, remember the railway from China to Persia (Iran)? Well China is also working feverishly uniting all the other Kings of the East under it’s hegemony…….
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2017-08/10/content_30406420.htm
“Chinese-built mega railway begins construction in Malaysia
Xinhua | Updated: 2017-08-10 09:28
KUANTAN, Malaysia – A mega railway to be built by China was officially launched on Wednesday in the Malaysian city of Kuantan, a milestone for China-Malaysia ties as China pushed forward the Belt and Road Initiative.
At a cost of 55 billion ringgit ($12.83 billion), the 688-km East Coast Rail Link (ECRL) will help upgrade public transportation infrastructure in the east coast, said Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak when inaugurating a ground-breaking ceremony of the project…..”
That’s right Manny, the RCC fits the bill as ‘mystery babylon’. Thanks for the update on the China railway, it’s all very interesting isn’t it? Time is not on the side of the unrepentant sinner.
Thanks! I’ll look into it! The practices certainly were carried down from Babylon. Semiramis and Tammuz. It’s the same as the Madonna and Child, twisted, see:
Ezekiel 8:13-15
Vision of Idolatry in the Temple
…13And He said to me, “Yet you will see still greater abominations which they are committing.” 14Then He brought me to the entrance of the gate of the LORD’S house which was toward the north; and behold, women were sitting there weeping for Tammuz. 15He said to me, “Do you see this, son of man? Yet you will see still greater abominations than these.
http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/the-queen-of-heaven-of-the-catholic-church-has-its-roots-in-pagan-idoloatry/
“THE ROMAN CATHOLIC TRADITIONS OF THE “MADONNA AND CHILD” BEGAN BACK IN PAGAN BABYLON WITH THE STORIES OF NIMROD, SEMIRAMIS AND THE BABY TAMMUZ.
“The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.” Jeremiah 7:18 (KJV)
Until the age of 30, I was your typical product of the Roman Catholic system. I had been sprinkled as a baby, received “first holy communion”, confessed my sins to a ‘priest’, and completed the Catholic sacrament of “Confirmation” all by the time I was in 5th grade. If anyone would have asked me who the “Queen of Heaven” was, I could answer them immediately and accurately. The “Queen of Heaven” was the same Virgin Mary that I had been taught to to pray to and to seek salvation from all my life. What I did not know, however, was that God in the Bible says that the “queen of heaven” is a pagan abomination that provokes Him to anger.
In order to attempt to staunch the flow of criticism Catholics receive about idol worship of mere humans like the biblical Mary, we were trained to tell people that “no, we do not worship Mary, we simply venerate her out of respect”. But for those of us on the “inside”, we knew different. We were taught to pray to Mary more than to anyone else, with prayers like this one:
“O MOTHER OF PERPETUAL HELP, GRANT ME EVER TO BE ABLE TO CALL UPON THY POWERFUL NAME, SINCE THY NAME IS THE HELP OF THE LIVING AND THE SALVATION OF THE DYING. AH, MARY MOST PURE, MARY MOST SWEET, GRANT THAT THY NAME FROM THIS DAY FORTH MAY BE TO ME THE VERY BREATH OF LIFE. DEAR LADY, DELAY NOT TO COME TO MY ASSISTANCE WHENEVER I CALL UPON THEE; FOR IN ALL THE TEMPTATIONS THAT ASSAIL ME, IN ALL THE NECESSITIES THAT BEFALL ME, I WILL NEVER LEAVE OFF CALLING UPON THEE, EVER REPEATING: MARY, MARY. WHAT COMFORT, WHAT SWEETNESS, WHAT CONFIDENCE, WHAT TENDERNESS FILLS MY SOUL AT THE SOUND OF THY NAME, AT THE VERY THOUGHT OF THEE! I GIVE THANKS TO OUR LORD, WHO FOR MY SAKE HATH GIVEN THEE A NAME SO SWEET, SO LOVABLE, SO MIGHTY. BUT I AM NOT CONTENT MERELY TO SPEAK THY NAME; I WOULD UTTER IT FOR VERY LOVE OF THEE; IT IS MY DESIRE THAT LOVE SHOULD EVER REMIND ME TO NAME THEE, MOTHER OF PERPETUAL HELP.” SOURCE
If you think that saying something like that is not worship or prayer, you are highly deceived. That was just one of dozens of Vatican-approved prayers to Mary. Catholic schools and churches love to place statues of the Virgin Mary and the Baby Jesus in the classrooms and chapels. Everywhere you go, there the Madonna and Child appear before you like an apparition. But as I got older, I discovered statues like that did not have the beginnings with Mary and Jesus, not even close. The Roman Catholic traditions of the “Madonna and Child” began back in pagan Babylon with the stories of Nimrod, Semiramis and the baby Tammuz.”
Thank you, Manny & Lyn. Why people consistently make excuses for the RCC is beyond any reason to understand, perhaps they are closet catholics, or just want to be one. As for Ralph Woodrow being an authority on any thing other than ecumenical teaching and practices, he is not, nor should his words be heeded when it comes to his ‘critique’ of Alexander Hislop— go to RW’s website and read it for your selves. The things that Hislop brought out are but the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the pure breed evil residing in the RCC, then and now. When will people stop accepting the “catholic church” as a legitimate part of Christianity? Never, unless and until their eyes are opened by the Lord Himself.
Darrel,
The RCC is such a wicked religion, reading about the Jesuits, the ‘black pope’, etc. is truly an eye opener. Thanks for the insight on Woodrow, I haven’t had time to do much research on him. I do plan on finishing Hislop’s book, hopefully this weekend.
Good morning Darrel,
There’s no reason why a born again child of God should in any way support, defend, or acquiesce to Rome. It is completely diametrically opposed to the living Gospels, in deed and in speech, it is corrupt, murderous, greedy, self-seeking, traitorous to God and His Son, without shame and completely in the world. The RCC is Satan’s most ingenious creation against Christianity, and those brave enough to stand against the Harlot of Babylon have paid with their lives, she will get paid her due. Judgement is coming my friend, harsh and cruel will her end be! Praise God for she is drunk with the blood of the saints. May her days be cut off soon! By the grace of God many are coming out of that abomination.
I could not agree with you more, Manny! My opening statement above was a failed (I suppose) attempt at humor, of the off-beat variety, as I know full well (as do you) that those who coddle the RCC are not born again, but fakers, imposters, and liars like their father, the devil. Your words are always appreciated, Manny; a rare voice in this day of the closing hours of history.
Hi Darrel:
I don’t know about defending or “coddling” the RCC, but I can give you the reasons that I’m not ready to condemn either the RCC or most Protestant denominations, and it has nothing to do with being a “closeted Catholic”, a faker, a liar, or a servant of the Devil — the last three being “low blows”. As a born-again Christian, I take exception at you insulting anyone who doesn’t agree with you on this issue. Love one another as you love yourself. Everybody deserves to be respected just as you want to be respected.
First, I prefer facts to fanciful speculation and do my best to consider both sides of issues that people bring to my attention. So far, involving the claims about the RCC that I have researched personally, their answers have made a lot of sense. Not everything, of course. But what church hasn’t got some doctrines that are questionable? How many different denominations are there? Do you think that any one denomination has everything (100%) correct? I very much doubt it. Of course, I could be wrong.
And second and more important, Revelation chapter 18 hasn’t happened yet. Until it does, the interpretation that the RCC or anything else is “Babylon the Great” remains unproven. Educated guesses. But no more than that. Until the prophecy of chapter 18 occurs, it’s a case of “innocent until proven guilty” for me. I don’t doubt that people have plenty of circumstantial evidence that I’m more than willing to look into (consider), but the “court case” for “Babylon the Great Harlot” has not yet started. Until the RCC collapses, implodes, shreds apart, ceases to exist, etc., nothing is for sure.
If it was just Ralph Woodrow questioning Alexander Hislop’s “facts”, you might have a point. But that’s not the case. His unfounded allegations and accusations have been thoroughly discredited by Historians and Archaeologists alike. To be fair to Alexander Hislop, he was a Presbyterian minister and not a Historian or Archaeologist, so he was no more qualified than Ralph Woodrow was. And he started with one heck of a bias and proceeded to make his “facts” fit his premise which is just plain bad research.
Whatever their faults are, how is the RCC not a legitimate part of Christianity?
I’m pretty sure that they believe in the Trinity of God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If they believe that Jesus died for the forgiveness of their sins and that He was the Son of God, then they’re Christians. That is the definition of a Christian.
Everything else is doctrinal differences and historical grievances, the validity of which are things to research. No definitive conclusions formed yet on my part, but there’s still lots and lots of things to look into further.
Seeking4facts, I hope you find the facts, so far your ‘search’ has left you just as empty as when you started. The RCC has never been a part of Christianity, they do not believe in the Trinity, but the “quadrinity” with Mary being more important to them than the Lord Jesus Christ. They pray to the dead. They work their way to “heaven” and make cash payments along the way to make their spot in their ‘heaven’ secure. Christ is not enough for them, hence their works garner them their “salvation” and their prayers to Mary supersede any prayers to Christ. They ‘crucify’ the Lord Jesus afresh every time they “celebrate mass” when Scriptures teach that He died once, never again to suffer. Actually, you are looking in the wrong place. Seek Christ, read the Word, seek His righteousness and not that found in the liturgy of dead denominational religion.
Why is it when someone presents truth they are accused of insulting others? If you are not ready to ‘condemn’ the RCC, then you will join them in their evils here before long. IF you were born again, then you would despise this evil religion. Call that unloving, insulting, whatever. Christ had the harshest of words for those who were ‘religious’.
Rome is the obvious Harlot of Babylon, you have to shut your eyes, stop your ears and really not want to see the truth to miss the glaring reality. I’ve provided plenty of proof, it’s one of the easiest telltale in Revelation.
Seeking, you said, [I’m pretty sure that they believe in the Trinity of God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If they believe that Jesus died for the forgiveness of their sins and that He was the Son of God, then they’re Christians. That is the definition of a Christian.]
Yes, to my knowledge, the Catholics have very good teaching concerning the Trinity. It is the one area in which they are correct.
Yes, they believe that Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins, BUT they add to this. They believe He died for sins, but that this wasn’t enough, only the beginning, and now you have to add to this your own works to secure salvation. And they’re not talking about sanctification. They’re talking about adding “the sacrament” of baptism to belief in the Cross, such that being baptized in water by the RCC is required if you want to be saved. Seeking, this is a false gospel!
Hi Belorac:
O.K., I’ve been doing some research about what different Protestant denominations, the Orthodox Churchs, and the RCC teach on this subject and I believe you’ve got this wrong. I would also like to point out to everybody that I’m not interested in only considering what the RCC teaches about things. I want to know the facts and not the rhetoric of what ALL OF the Christian denominations teach about pretty much everything, so let’s not over-focus on the fact that I’m willing to research what the RCC teaches as if that’s all that I am researching.
And just because I’ve thus far not found credible evidence to condemn any other Christian denomination ( . . . yet) doesn’t mean that I won’t one day agree with your interpretations of Scripture and other viewpoints. But if/when I do, it will be because folks have given me solid facts and research independent (instead) of just repeating what they’ve been taught growing up without every actually double-checking it on their own (examining all sides of whatever they’re double-checking from Protestant and Catholic sources alike) or from historically-inaccurate and thoroughly-refuted books like “The Two Babylons” by Alexander Hislop. For example, my research of the information that Manny has provided has barely yet begun.
So, O.K., the role of baptism in justification and salvation:
Look at John 3:3-8 paying special attention to John 3:5.
When Jesus prefaces teachings with words like “truly”, “verily”, “amen”, etc., he is teaching a profound, absolutely true teaching. He is NOT speaking in parable, metaphorically, or figuratively. He is teaching a literal, crucially-important truth.
https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/15356/why-does-jesus-say-very-truly-i-tell-you
Pay close attention to the 1st answer. No matter how you translate the relevant 1st Century C.E. greek words, there is no room to interpret things symbolically.
We all know that we are justified by faith [Ephesians 2:8-10]. But Peter warns us that Paul’s letters are difficult to understand [2 Peter 3:16]. Even the most faithful Christians will have difficulty interpreting them correctly, never mind the others who seek to twist Scripture which Peter also warns us about.
There are two questions to ask and the correct answers are whichever answers makes John 3:5 literally true:
Through God’s grace, WHAT KIND of faith are we justified by?
Through God’s grace, WHEN are we justified by faith?
The partial answer to the second question is WHEN we first demonstrate the CORRECT TYPE of faith through which we are justified through Grace.
I found out that the RCC doesn’t “re-baptize” people. If anyone has been baptized as a Christian in any denomination, they recognize the baptism as valid. I found references to baptism as a “gateway” sacrament for all Christians and that there are 6 other sacraments reserved for Catholics for a total of 7 sacraments. Sacraments are defined as Divine Graces extended by God to help a Christian to become more conformed to Christ. So, they’re part of sanctification.
While not crucial to this matter, I think that your PERCEPTION (interpretation) of a “false gospel” centered around baptism is rooted in the idea that everything other than faith is “works”. To know what Paul meant by “works”, we need to examine the meaning of the 1st Century C.E. greek words that have been translated into modern english as “works”. In modern english, we all know that there are many things other than faith that are not “work”. Things that do not require effort. Baptism requires no effort. Take a full-immersion baptism in a lake. One wades into the lake. No effort. Someone else lowers you into the water. No effort on the part of the person being baptized. That same person raises you up out of the water. No effort on the part of the person being baptized. One walks out of the lake. No effort. So, baptism is not “work”. We also know that “good works” are “works” (ie. require effort) that we do FOR OTHER PEOPLE. One does not get baptized for other people. Therefore, baptism is not a “good work”.
And since baptism is not a “work”, what other parts of a Christian’s journey in Christ are likewise not “works”?
“The Protestant Reformation happened for a reason. Basically, it was to combat the many false teachings that the Roman Catholic Church had adopted through the centuries. When Martin Luther compared Catholicism to Scripture, the result was his nailing the 95 theses to the Wittenberg door. However, instead of reforming the Roman Catholic Church, it resulted in the protesters, the Protestants, whose aim was to get back to the Scriptures.
Following is a summarized paragraph with references found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) of many of the false teachings of Roman Catholicism. How do we know they are false? By comparing Scripture with what is taught
The Catholic Church is the one true church (CCC 2105), Infallibility of the Catholic Church, (CCC 2035),
Only the Roman Catholic Church has authority to interpret Scripture (CCC 100),
The Pope is the head of the church and has the authority of Christ (CCC 2034),
The Roman Catholic Church is necessary for salvation (CCC 846),
Sacred Tradition equal to scripture (CCC 82),
Forgiveness of sins, salvation, is by faith and works (CCC 2036 CCC 2080 2068),
Full benefit of Salvation is only through the Roman Catholic Church (Vatican 2, Decree on Ecumenism, 3),
Grace can be merited (CCC 2010 CCC 2027),
The merit of Mary and the Saints can be applied to Catholics and others (1477),
Penance is necessary for salvation (CCC 980),
Purgatory (CCC 1031 CCC 1475),
Indulgences (CCC 1471 CCC 1478 CCC 1498 CCC 1472),
Mary is Mediatrix (CCC 969), Mary brings us the gifts of eternal salvation (CCC 969), Mary delivers souls from death (CCC 966), Prayer to the saints (CCC 2677), The Communion elements become the actual body and blood of Christ (CCC 1374 CCC 1376).
The Catholic church is the one true church
CCC 2105 “The duty of offering God genuine worship concerns man both individually and socially. This is ‘the traditional Catholic teaching on the moral duty of individuals and societies toward the true religion and the one Church of Christ.’ By constantly evangelizing men, the Church works toward enabling them ‘to infuse the Christian spirit into the mentality and mores, laws and structures of the communities in which [they] live.’ The social duty of Christians is to respect and awaken in each man the love of the true and the good. It requires them to make known the worship of the one true religion which subsists in the Catholic and apostolic Church. Christians are called to be the light of the world. Thus, the Church shows forth the kingship of Christ over all creation and in particular over human societies.”
Infallibility of the Catholic Church
CCC 2035, “The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed.”
Only the Roman Catholic Church has authority to interpret Scripture
CCC 100, “The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.”
The Pope is the head of the church and has the authority of Christ
CCC 2034, “The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are ‘authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach the faith to the people entrusted to them, the faith to be believed and put into practice.’ The ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Pope and the bishops in communion with him teach the faithful the truth to believe, the charity to practice, the beatitude to hope for.”
The Roman Catholic Church is necessary for salvation
CCC 846, “How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”
Sacred Tradition equal to scripture
CCC 82, “. . .the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence’.”
Forgiveness of sins, salvation, is by faith and works
CCC 2036, “The specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the creator, is necessary for salvation.”
CCC 2080, “The Decalogue contains a privileged expression of the natural law. It is made known to us by divine revelation and by human reason.”
CCC 2068, “so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments,”
Full benefit of Salvation is only through the Roman Catholic Church
“For it is only through Christ’s Catholic Church, which is “the all-embracing means of salvation,” that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation,,” (Vatican 2, Decree on Ecumenism, 3).
Grace can be merited
CCC 2010, “Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification.”
CCC 2027, “Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.”
The merit of Mary and the Saints can be applied to Catholics and others
1477, “This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission in the unity of the Mystical Body.”
Penance is necessary for salvation
CCC 980, “This sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation for those who have fallen after Baptism, just as Baptism is necessary for salvation for those who have not yet been reborn.”
Purgatory
CCC 1031, “The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:
CCC 1475, “In the communion of saints, “a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. Between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things.” In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.
Indulgences
CCC 1471, “The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance. What is an indulgence? ‘An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.’ ‘An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin.’ The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.”
CCC 1478, “An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishments due for their sins. Thus the Church does not want simply to come to the aid of these Christians, but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity.
CCC 1498, “Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory.”
CCC 1472, “…On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin…”
Mary (there are many false doctrines concerning Mary found in Roman Catholicism, here are a few)
Mary is Mediatrix, CCC 969,
“Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.'”
Mary brings us the gifts of eternal salvation, CCC 969,
“Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation…”
Mary delivers souls from death, CCC 966,
“…You [Mary] conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.”
Prayer to the saints
CCC 2677,
“By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the ‘Mother of Mercy,’ the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender ‘the hour of our death’ wholly to her care.”
The Communion elements become the actual body and blood of Christ
CCC 1374,
“In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist “the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained.”
CCC 1376,
“The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: “Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation”
https://carm.org/list-of-roman-catholic-false-teachings
Hi Manny:
Thank you for your very helpful and informative posts, both this one and the six that follow this post. It will give me lots to research. In advance, thank you for any new posts that may follow. I’ll check it all out and I’m sure that I will have additional questions to post in the days to come under each of your different posts.
I have a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church published in 1997 so I’ll be able to read each article in its entirety. It seems to me that using their own words against them is the best way to “trip them up” with respect to any teachings that contradict Scripture. But I also want to make sure that CARM didn’t leave anything out in their quotes from the catechism or interpret them out of context. As the saying goes, “trust but verify”. The catechism cost me US$8.99 but I also found a free app that has the entire catechism complete with a search feature at:
https://www.google.ca/search?client=tablet-android-asus&q=catechism+of+the+catholic+church+ebook&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjw25C9-_jVAhVD5GMKHWDJBlMQ1QIImQEoAA&biw=800&bih=1280
and when I installed it via the Google Play Store a bunch of other free apps like the writings of the early church fathers — I’m talking about the original Christian Church fathers — popped up. I had no idea!
I also bought the New St. Joseph Missal Prayerbook and Hymnal for 2017 so that I can read the prayers and Scripture readings that they are using in their Sunday masses this year word for word. That only cost me US$5.00. Like I said, to “hoist Catholics by their own petard”, it’s better to use their own words against them instead of relying on Protestant interpretations about what they teach. That’s my opinion anyway. That’s the real issue with Alexander Hislop’s “research”, given how flawed his claims are. He was a Protestant and not a Catholic “insider”.
I really appreciate all the help that you have provided and any additional information that you and others like Belorac can provide.
” “Babylon the Great Harlot” has not yet started. Until the RCC collapses, implodes, shreds apart, ceases to exist, etc., nothing is for sure”
Rome will not implode, collapse, shred apart, nor cease to exist. Rome will bring all religions under her fold through world wide ecumenism, something that is in full swing, as you see today mainline denominations beating a path to Rome. Very light and casual research reveals this. Rome will continue to gather strength as a quasi- politico-religious system till the antichrist is revelead at the fullfilment of The Great Apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:3), then the Vicar of Rome points to beast as the messiah……the Avatar, the Cosmic Christ, the Mahdi, the universal false christ that will instigate the destruction of the world. You see, Babylon The Great Harlot has begun, not yesterday but at the formation of the holy Roman empire with the decree of Constantine making Christianity the official state religion.
1 Timothy 4New King James Version (NKJV)
The Great Apostasy
4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
That above is consistent with the RCC, the raging Apostasy we are in and coupled with the geo-poligucal occurrences in the East, Middle East, Russia and the globe proves the clock is almost out of time.
Hi Manny:
Constantine didn’t make Christianity the state religion. That only happened in 380 C.E. with the Edict of Thessalonica. It was Galerius who decriminalized Christianity in 311 C.E. making it legal to openly practice the Christian faith along with every other religion in Rome. Constantine was born in 306 C.E. and died in 337 C.E. and co-authored the Edict of Milan in 313 C.E.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great_and_Christianity
That means that Christianity had 69 years to gain converts until it was declared the state religion. True Christianity could have easily supplanted the pagan religions of Rome in that much time and not the other way around. I’m not saying that this is what happened, just that it certainly had enough time to do so.
For all I know, with this large a gap (almost 70 years) between legalization and being declared the state religion of the Roman Empire, the RCC could actually be the 1st Century C.E. Christian Church, as they claim they are. Then again, it could be the “Harlot of Babylon” as you believe. I simply don’t know . . . yet. Research continues.
I have to wonder:
If your source of historical information got this wrong, what else have they gotten wrong?
Oh, the Holy Roman Empire was established in 800 C.E., more than 3 centuries after the Roman Empire was destroyed, and was dissolved in 1806 C.E. The actual term “Holy Roman Empire” was not coined until the 13th Century.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire
Hi Manny:
I’m confused by this post. In your post on August 25, 2017 at 10:10 A.M., you wrote:
“Judgement is coming my friend, harsh and cruel will her end be! Praise God for she is drunk with the blood of the saints. May her days be cut off soon! By the grace of God many are coming out of that abomination.”
And like your statement, Revelation chapter 18 talks about Babylon being doomed, falling, etc. Especially Revelation 18:2, 18:8, 18:10, and 18:2.
but in this post you said:
“Rome will not implode, collapse, shred apart, nor cease to exist. Rome will bring all religions under her fold through world wide ecumenism.”
So, which is it? Can you clarify?
Rome has been drinking the blood of saints since before the Inquisition, she is under the judgement of God as is the world system, she will get her final retribution at the hands of the antichrist during the time of Jacob’s Trouble, Revelation 17:16. Rome is bridging all religions today, of that there’s no doubt, she will be the vehicle steered by the false prophet to bring a Satan worshipping religious system to bear against those that are still in the world during the seven years, Rome will be instrumental in having millions decapitated and murdered for not worshipping the beast, Revelation 13:14-13:16:
14Because of the signs it was given to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived those who dwell on the earth, telling them to make an image to the beast that had been wounded by the sword and yet had lived. 15The second beast was permitted to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image would also speak and cause all who refused to worship it to be killed. 16And the second beast required all people small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,
The irony is, Rome turns on God’s people, then the beast who Rome compelled everyone to worship turns on her, because he (antichrist) enters the temple and declares himself to be God, the abomination of desolation, as he declares himself God, he is basically usurping power from Rome, he is now the church.
So you see Rome is on an evolutionary path of transformation, she will not be swallowed till the end, she cannot implode now to become something new, she’s ready now for the revealing of the man of sin, this will happen when the great Apostasy we are going through right now is complete:
2 Thessalonians 2:2-2:3
2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter presuming to be from us and alleging that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness (the son of destruction) is revealed.
The two Babylon will be destroyed:
“Two “Babylons” are to be distinguished in the Revelation: ecclesiastical babylon, which is apostate Christendom, headed up under the Papacy; and political babylon, which is the Beast’s confederated empire, the last form of Gentile world-dominion. Ecclesiastical Babylon is “the great whore” Rev 17:1 and is destroyed by political Babylon Rev 17:15-18 that the beast may be the alone object of worship. 2Th 2:3,4 Rev 13:15. The power of political Babylon is destroyed by the return of the Lord in glory. (See “Armageddon,”) Rev 16:14 19:17. The notion of a literal Babylon to be rebuilt on the site of ancient Babylon is in conflict with Isa 13:19-22. But the language of Rev 18:10,16,18 seems beyond question to identify “Babylon,” the “city” of luxury and traffic, with “Babylon” the ecclesiastical centre, viz. Rome. The very kings who hate ecclesiastical Babylon deplore the destruction of commercial Babylon.”
Hope that clarifies.
Hi Manny:
O.K., that helps to clarify how you’re interpreting these verses in Revelation, but I don’t follow the logic. Revelation 13:14-16 could refer to anything. I get that you have no doubt that it refers to the RCC, but can you break it down for me? What does each part of the prophecy refer to specifically?
Btw, I did not say that “Babylon the Harlot” didn’t exist already. I said that the trial to definitively prove the identity of “Babylon” had not yet started. Right now, it’s like parts of the evidence to a pending court case have been leaked to the press and folks are deciding, based on that partial evidence, who the defendant (whose identity is protected by law) is. Very much the “court of public opinion”. I say “partial evidence” because not all the evidence is in yet because we are talking about future events. The future may play out as you have interpreted that it will, but then again it may not play out the way that you expect it to. Time will tell. Right now though, it seems like you’re forcing some of these verses to fit your interpretation, and isn’t that the same thing that Alexander Hislop did with his “evidence”?
In any event, from what you’ve said, it sounds like the trial of “Babylon the Great” will only officially start when other Christian denominations and religions start to become Catholics and submit themselves to the authority of the RCC, which hasn’t happened yet with even one denomination or religion, and will conclude when it announces that the Messiah has arrived, by which time it will have gained the military clout to start decapitating people and not only a few but millions.
For now, aren’t these opinions, no matter how devoutly believed, still speculation? I have no problem with speculation. I’m just asking.
Seeking you ask good questions and your points about public opinions and speculations rings true. I difficult understanding the Apocalypse in the book of Rev so i watch this discussions alot. Thanks to you asking a good questions
Thanks TBCF!
This is only my personal opinion, but I believe that quoting Scriptural verses to support something one is saying without being able to explain HOW every part of the quote does relate to what one is saying is somewhat dishonest. This is especially true of difficult-to-interpret books like Revelation. There are dozens (hundreds?) of books out there containing contradicting interpretations about what the symbols in Revelation mean. I’m looking forward to Manny’s detailed explanation. If he doesn’t have one, it would have been better for him to have not used the quote. A proof-text that one cannot explain is no proof-text at all.
Thanks to making sense of all this things. I didn’t see any good answers so far from Manny. But your explanations making some good points and give me speculation to dig deeper and seek historical proofs. Manny explains has contradiction and just gives me more confusion. I wait to see his answers hopefully soon.
One more observation:
There’s no other “church” on Earth, nor has there ever been that has her own bank, own army, own media publishing, investment services, it’s own police, gold bullion depository, owns an amazing portfolio of real estate in major populous cities throughout the world, they have their own embassies, their own intelligence apparatus (Jesuit order), ambassadors, it is it’s own country, it has representatives to the UN, it cavorts with presidents and kings…….any stripe of political power, it’s leader flies around the world in a plane solely designated for him by Alitalia, it declares laws and commandments that according to it surpasses the bible, there is no other organization nor will there be any other organization that has melded religion and politics like Rome, while possessing riches and luxuries that amount to billions upon billions of dollars, perhaps given today’s inflationary economic atmosphere well into the trillions. They’ve paid close to $4 BILLION to settle child molestation suits, the parish in Los Angeles alone was about $600 MILLION. There is no other city that rests on 7 hills that has those features listed above, there is not city on Earth that is a singular religious institution, there is no institution that was made the religion of an empire before or after.
Manny, thanks for putting all of that in one comment, it’s definitely a “keeper”. may God be pleased to open the eyes of those who still teach Rome’s lies.
I find Rome to be the easiest red flag to see, it’s ready and primed, once the Apostasy is complete, who ever the pope might be at that time will point to a relative unknown person as the messiah, the cosmic christ, maitreya, the Mahdi, the avatar, Vishnu, and whatever other demon is the head of pagans. Coupled with deceiving miracles, even fire from the sky, and a most amazing delusion from God, will seal the fate of the church age.Either you stand with Him or you follow Satan. There’s no other way.
REVELATION 17:8-10
8The beast that you saw was, and now is no more, but is about to come up out of the abyss and go to its destruction. And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be. 9This calls for a mind that has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. 10There are also seven kings. Five are fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.…
Hi Manny:
Can you explain these verses in detail? What does “was, now no more (ie. John’s time — the end of the 1st Century C.E.), and is about to come out of the abyss . . . ” mean? Who or what are the seven heads that are seven mountains? How can a head be a mountain? And how does the woman sit on seven mountains? And who or what are these seven kings — five that are fallen, one who is (ie. in John’s time), and the other yet to come?
Thanks for asking this I have difficulty understanding the Apocalypse and wonder about these things too.
Sorry I’ve been late answering I just passed through Irma and I’ve been trying to get back to my routine.
“Can you explain these verses in detail?
What does “was, now no more (ie. John’s time — the end of the 1st Century C.E.), and is about to come out of the abyss”
Revelation 17:7
“Why are you astonished?” said the angel. “I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and ten horns. 8The beast that you saw was, and now is no more, but is about to come up out of the abyss and go to its destruction. And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be. 9 This calls for a mind that has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.…
Who or what are the seven heads that are seven mountains?
“As was the case for calculating the number of the Beast (Rev. Rev. 13:18+), wisdom is required to understand the next portion of the mystery revealed by the angel.
the seven heads are seven mountains
As Woods observes, if the seven mountains are to be taken as the seven hills of Rome, then it is difficult to see why special wisdom is said to be required in order to understand the revelation provided by the angel:
It seems odd that the seven hills should be equated with the well-known topography of Rome because Revelation Rev. 17:1+: indicates that the identification of the hills calls for special wisdom. Why should such a well-known geographical locale to John’s first century audience require special theological and symbolic insight for proper identification?1
As we shall see in the next verse, the seven heads are seven kings. Here they are said to be seven mountains. The relationship between kings and mountains is well-established in Scripture—mountains represent the power of kingdoms and their individual kings (Jer. Jer. 51:25; Dan. Dan. 2:35; Zec. Zec. 4:7). These seven mountains, together with the eighth (Rev. Rev. 17:11+), will eventually be destroyed by the stone which is Christ, the Messianic King (Rev. Rev. 20:4+). His kingdom is destined to become “a great mountain” and fill the whole earth (Dan. Dan. 2:35).
This symbolic understanding of the seven mountains seems buttressed by the fact that the harlot sits on or beside seven mountains (Rev. Rev. 17:9+) just as she sits on or beside the many waters (Rev. Rev. 17:1+). Since the waters are symbolic of peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues (Rev. Rev. 17:15+), consistency seems to dictate that the seven mountains are symbolic as well.2”
How can a head be a mountain? symbolic of a king.
And how does the woman sit on seven mountains? And who or what are these seven kings — five that are fallen, one who is (ie. in John’s time), and the other yet to come?
We have seen elsewhere in Scripture that kingdoms are often represented by their kings or as mountains (e.g., Jer. Jer. 51:25; Dan. Dan. 2:35).6 We also note that the Harlot, who sits on the heads is considered to be the “mother of harlots and of the abominations of the earth” (Rev. Rev. 17:5+). This implies her origin in distant history past and argues for an understanding of the kings as kingdoms spanning long periods of time. Yet wisdom is required to identify the heads which are kings: which kings or kingdoms do they represent? We take the heads/mountains/kings to represent kingdoms rather than individual kings associated with a single kingdom. Regardless of the identity of the first two of the fallen kingdoms (Babel and Egypt or Egypt and Assyria, see #5 – Five Fallen Kings), the next four are identified by Daniel’s vision (#8 – Four Beasts/Kings) making Rome the sixth which ruled at the time of the Revelation. John is shown two additional kings yet future, a seventh and an eighth:7
These are seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition. (Rev. Rev. 17:10-11+)8 [emphasis added]
The eighth king is not one of the seven heads/mountains/kings, but arises from the seven (Rev. Rev. 17:11+). This passage is somewhat confusing because it is accounting for the fact that a single king will represent both of the kingdoms which are future to John’s vision. The Antichrist, the Beast, arises out of the seventh kingdom, but also suffers a wound and is revived to rule as an undisputed eighth king:
The preferred scheme is that the five who have fallen are the kingdoms of the past which have persecuted God’s people [see #5 – Five Fallen Kings] . . . The one that remains is Rome, the persecutor of God’s people when John was writing. The seventh is the final great persecutor, the reunited Roman Empire headed up by Antichrist, and the eighth is the final form of Gentile world rule—the final empire of Antichrist, which will arise from the seventh after the Antichrist dies and comes back to life.9
The seven heads are said to have names of blasphemy (Rev. Rev. 13:1+; Rev. 17:3+). “The ‘names of blasphemy’ . . . on the beast’s heads are names that amounted to words or conduct injurious to God’s honor and holiness.”10 The heads themselves—the kingdoms they represent—blasphemed God. The tendency of great kings to regard themselves as divine, their rule having been gained by their own hand, and their opposition to God and his people is legend (e.g., 2K. 2K. 19:6; Ps. Ps. 74:10; Isa. Isa. 37:6; Isa. 52:5; Dan. Dan. 4:30; Dan. 5:23).
This is a very good commentary:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/revelation-17/revelation-17-9.html
http://www.un.org/en/events/peaceday/
The theme for 2017 is “Together for Peace: Respect, Safety and Dignity for All.”
The theme honours the spirit of TOGETHER, a global initiative that promotes respect, safety and dignity for everyone forced to flee their homes in search of a better life. TOGETHER unites the organizations of the United Nations System, the 193 Member States of the United Nations, the private sector, civil society, academic institutions and individual citizens in a global partnership in support of diversity, non-discrimination and acceptance of refugees and migrants. It was initiated during the United Nations Summit for Refugees and Migrants on 19 September 2016.
“In times of insecurity, communities that look different become convenient scapegoats,” said United Nations Secretary-General António Guterres. “We must resist cynical efforts to divide communities and portray neighbours as ‘the other’. Discrimination diminishes us all. It prevents people — and societies — from achieving their full potential.” He added, “Together, let us stand up against bigotry and for human rights. Together, let us build bridges. Together, let us transform fear into hope.”
This year, the International Day of Peace will focus on engaging and mobilizing people throughout the world to show support for refugees and migrants. Its messages will be shared with communities hosting refugees and migrants as well as people concerned that refugees and migrants may bring physical and economic insecurity to their lives.
The Day will highlight solidarity with refugees and migrants and showcase the shared benefits of migration to economies and nations, while also acknowledging legitimate concerns of host communities. Ultimately, it will be about bringing people together and reminding them of their common humanity.
Young people will have a vital role to play. For example, they can volunteer to welcome and help refugees and migrants in their communities. They can also extend the hand of friendship to young refugees and migrants who they might meet in their classrooms and neighbourhoods.
On 15 September 2017, from 9:00 a.m. to 9:30 a.m., the Secretary-General will celebrate the Day in the Peace Garden at United Nations Headquarters by ringing the Peace Bell and observing a minute of silence. United Nations Messengers of Peace will participate in the ceremony. The United Nations Education Outreach Section will hold a global student videoconference on the same day, from 9:30 a.m. to 12:30 p.m., also at United Nations.
1 Thessalonians 5:2-5:4
The Day of the Lord
…2For you are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief.…
Hi Manny:
While this United Nations initiative is about peace, I don’t think that’s what 1 Thessalonians 5:2-4 is talking about. The last time people were saying “peace and security” in the sense that these verses mean was back in the days when it was said that “the sun never sets in the British Commonwealth”, World War I was called “the war to end all wars”, and the stock market had not yet crashed triggering the Great Depression. The period between late 1918 – 1928 C.E. The last “Golden Age”.
It has nothing to do with this.
Good morning,
Peace and safety is the toll bell of the UN, under the guise they push for world governance by ringing the peace and safety bell. The bottom line: world ecumenism. It’s already here, my city has implemented parts of agenda 2020 under construction development. In the US the “peace and safety” narrative has been used to usurp personal freedoms, while the illusion of safety gets repackaged with fear to keep the sheeple corraled.
1 Thessalonians 5:2–4
2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you bare not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.
While the UN cries PEACE AND SAFETY today, judgement has already begun in the house of The Lord, its called The Great Apostasy, the obvious separation of the worldly church from the bride of Jesus Christ. The secular world worships Gaia under the banner of global warming, population control, and world governance. Apostate Christendom worships satan, man, and the creation under the guise of tolerance, compromise, scripture rejection and lastly the worship of Mammon by the seculars and the anti christians.
No matter what your views are on the timing of the rapture, I highly recommend the writings of John Walvoord. He has some great books on the rapture question and Revelation.
For your perusal:
http://walvoord.com/article/259
Here is my take on this, obviously my opinion……..
“It seems odd that the seven hills should be equated with the well-known topography of Rome because Revelation Rev. 17:1+: indicates that the identification of the hills calls for special wisdom. Why should such a well-known geographical locale to John’s first century audience require special theological and symbolic insight for proper identification?1”
In John’s day, the Roman Catholic Church was not created by Constantine yet, the wisdom required is that in a future time an unknown entity that would call itself Christian located on a city on top of seven hills, will be the fulfillment of the scarlet woman. Remember the true church is the bride, a female, Romanism dresses it’s top hierarchy in scarlet, the bride is always depicted in white and fine linen, while the scarlet woman is depicted as a drunk and blasphemous woman. Yes the hills could be identified in John’s time but the woman could not since the Vatican wasn’t built and Romanism was invented.
It’s akin to Mt.Rushmore being described before and after the carvings on the face of the mountain. People in the past that knew the mountain being told it would possess the faces of leaders! They wouldn’t know what it meant, they knew the location, but they didn’t have the wisdom to understand the transformation of the mountain! The seven hills in Rome were nothing special in John’s day, untill Romanism came to life and the shrine/city for the Harlot was built and immortalized the seven hills. There’s the wisdom the Harlot now sits untop the seven hills in her throne, no other religion has ever fit the description of the Harlot as Rome. None.
This from my post a while ago……….
Which religion ever, ever, has had this description:
There’s no other “church” on Earth, nor has there ever been that has her own bank, own army, own media publishing, investment services, it’s own police, gold bullion depository, owns an amazing portfolio of real estate in major populous cities throughout the world, they have their own embassies, their own intelligence apparatus (Jesuit order), ambassadors, it is it’s own country, it has representatives to the UN, it cavorts with presidents and kings…….any stripe of political power, it’s leader flies around the world in a plane solely designated for him by Alitalia, it declares laws and commandments that according to it surpasses the bible, there is no other organization nor will there be any other organization that has melded religion and politics like Rome, while possessing riches and luxuries that amount to billions upon billions of dollars, perhaps given today’s inflationary economic atmosphere well into the trillions. They’ve paid close to $4 BILLION to settle child molestation suits, the parish in Los Angeles alone was about $600 MILLION. There is no other city that rests on 7 hills that has those features listed above, there is no city on Earth that is a singular religious institution, there is no institution that was made the religion of an empire before or after.
Daniel 12:3
3″Those who have INSIGHT will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and THOSE WHO LEAD THE MANY TO RIGHTEOUSNESS, like the stars forever and ever. 4″But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.” 5Then I, Daniel, looked and behold, two others were standing, one on this bank of the river and the other on that bank of the river.…(emphasis added)
Revelation 22:9-11
9But he said to me, “Do not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God!” 10Then he told me, “DO NOT SEAL UP THE WORDS OF PROPHECY IN THIS BOOK, BECAUSE THE TIME IS NEAR. 11Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy.”…
(emphasis added))
Manny.
The Bible says (1 John 2:27) Christians/Believers do not need anyone to teach them but you are teaching people in this forum. Why are you contradicting the Holy Spirit by teaching people? If someone asked you to steal would you steal? If they asked you to lie would you lie? When people ask you to teach them why don’t you refer them to
1 John 2:27? Is it your pride that makes you contradict Gods word?
1- Do you agree with the statement, “We are saved by faith alone, but saving faith is never alone.”? (Faith always results in works (fruit) and those who have faith, will work; but we are “saved by faith… (and our salvation) is not of works.” (Ephesians 2:8-9) “But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,” Romans 4:5.
Yes I agree. The question is, what is “Faith”? The Bible says (James 2:24) “Faith without works is dead” So I affirm that salvation is by “Faith” IF said “Faith results in a new creation that serves God and not Satan. The Bible says (1 John 2:4) “Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him”
2- Do you agree that the Roman Catholic Church (i.e.- it’s leaders, some of the Popes) has committed horrible atrocities? (Murdering each other, and murdering millions in the Crusades, etc.)
Yes. I also know that scripture tells me Jesus personally chose 12 men to be His Apostles and all 12 were SINNERS. Of the 12 men that Jesus PERSONALLY selected to spread the Gospel one betrayed Him for money, ten abandoned Him at the cross and only ONE (John) remained faithful. Popes are sinners just like the 12 Apostles. So yes I expect Popes to be sinners. We are ALL sinners. Besides that if they BELIEVE in Jesus what’s the problem and who are you to cast the first stone? Are you without sin?
3- Seeing that the Popes have been so extremely fallible, how can you know that the current Pope is infallible? Isn’t that what they thought about the Popes that killed each other and ordered the murders of millions of protestants?
Are the writings of the Eleven Apostles who betrayed Jesus fallible or infallible?
4- Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life.” Do you believe that the Roman Catholic Church saves people?
No, Gods Grace ALONE saves people. But God does not force anyone to accept His grace. The Catholic Church is the conduit (via the Sacraments) to God’s font of grace. The Protestant Church has rejected the Sacraments and that is why the world is sick and many are dying. (1 Cor 11:27-32)
P.S.
I sincerely hope that I have answered your questions. My hope is that ALL men (and women) will come to know and accept the life saving grace of God which is now available to ALL humankind through Jesus Christ our Lord. Please pray for me and I will pray for you.
In Christ, Pax Christi
Snooop1e
I have no idea how old this thread is, but as a protestant I agree wholeheartedly with your stance against the false religions of OSAS and TULIP, and have used all these argument and more. These people put their trust in their doctrine, not in Jesus. No where in the bible does it say “when” you sin, only “if”. The fact is one unrepentant sin disqualifies you from heaven, such as the sin of unforgiveness, of which Jesus says if you don’t forgiven your brother when he sins against you, then He wont forgive you. They won’t answer that question either, or maybe they’ll say “that only applies to jews”. According to their philosophy they’ll be a lot of unforgiven people i heaven.
Though I cannot agree with you on many of the RC`s beliefs, but I have and do read the works of some Godly men who were catholic, De Renty, Kempis, Lawrence. Fenelon, etc…
I do not discount the fact that there are many who attend the catholic church who “love the Lord with all their heart.”, (for ultimately this is what He’s after), and I believe their are also Baptists, Methodists and Presbyterians who do too! Ut remember this, none of these will be in heaven, only those who live and walk in love, who prove their love by their deeds, regardless of their denomination. I believe God has allowed these differences to see if we are going to love, or condemn others because they don’t believe like us.
However the closer I get to the Lord the less denominations matter to me.
Dwight Douville: Make sure you read all the comments.
Google: Calvary Chapel’s Tangled Web by David Sessions-Daily Beast
Goolge: Calvary Chapel’s Slide into the Apostasy=beginningofsorrows website
Google: Father, Son and Holy Rift, Los Angeles Times Article
Famous Editor in O.C. who said “he has heard items/things for years on Calvary Chapel
and when he had the time he was going to investigate”.
When you read Battle Hymn by John Scura and Dane Phillips and Chuck Smith, Sr.’s role about what the Author said was true, there you go; explain that one! Author is right.
Fruit of the C.C.’s is they are a 501c3 Corporation equals Business; yet where is their building of Housing for Widows, Fatherless, Single Parents and their Children, Homeless people just built their empires, their kingdom with their time and money. Best in WORD or they used to be but do not live what they preach NOT at all and now their lack of fruit is all coming out. Notice Rick Warren’s part in the Book.
Now with Mark Driscoll imploding and has been read all those articles people are profiling. Is Mark Driscoll like James MacArthur really Mormon hiding behind Christianity that is being exposed. Just based on exchange of Alex Grenier between Chuck Smith and those very evil emails. Chuck Smith wanted Children Molested and Women abused. Know someone who has investigated Smith Senior for over 30 years and took it public to Report Church Abuse List, single parent women and abused women were going to ask for help from C.C. Churches getting horrible advice and leaving churches and killing themselves, satanist want people to die and that has been Smith Sr., fruit for over 30 years. One EVIL DUDE. Where is he is spending eternity? Explain Jr. marrying Homosexuals? Explain all the articles in O.C.R.?
Explain the Daily Beast article the EVIL of C.C. Explain C.C. Slide into the Apostasy?
Look at Greg Laurie all that money and who did he help? Now he’s Baptist? Why? Ask all the C.C. Pastors if they ever prayed for anyone to die like Don Long, Scott Bauer, etc.,
P.S. I’ve heard hideous evil stories over 30 years regarding C.C. fruit or lack thereof, they do not live Christian at all, NO FRUIT in what doing same for aog’s and the foursquare, presbyterian, methodist, baptist it’s all a Business and a Pyramid Scheme.
Look at our Nation what is the fruit especially in L.A., San Fran., Ohio, Virginia etc.
Look at our Schools-LGBT Agenda, Suicides, Death, Violence, Mayhem, Chaos and the False Church and the Leaders do not care, not at all it’s about the money.
You left out Abortion.
Abortion is one evil sin among many.
Unofficial denomination Calvary church was all the information I needed to confirm my suspicions.
Thank you for your reply. Appreciate your perspective. For a better understanding of why Catholic beliefs I highly recommend the Called to Communion podcast with former Presbyterian Pastor Dr. David Anders.
https://www.ewtn.com/radio/shows/called-to-communion
May God bless and keep you.
Pax Christi
The “Calvary distinctives” are the same as the Catholic “distinctive” just renamed.
– Child baptisms are child dedications
– Priests are called Pastors
– Disobedience to Gods laws & commandments
are called GRACE, oh wait they share this crock too.
– “Saul” means underworld or Sheol, which is the savior
of the Calvary doctrine, same founder as Roman Catholic Church.
Ever letter of Saul (Sheol) are Satanic LIES with only purpose
If deceiving, distracting and preventing people from know YHWH
and His son Yeshua. Wake up sheep, otherwise you will find yourselves
On Yeshua’s heft hand side amongst the GOATS.
All of the true apostles letters were written to inform and the true
Believers of The Anti-Christ Saul/Paul’s blasphemies.
The book of “Revelations” is also full of blasphemies, inconsistencies
And LIES.
WAKE UP YOU DUMB SHEEP!!!
The “Calvary distinctives” are the same as the Catholic “distinctive” just renamed.
– Child baptisms are child dedications
– Priests are called Pastors
– Disobedience to Gods laws & commandments
are called GRACE, oh wait they share this crock too.
– “Saul” means underworld or Sheol, which is the savior
of the Calvary doctrine, same founder as Roman Catholic Church.
Ever letter of Saul (Sheol) are Satanic LIES with only purpose
If deceiving, distracting and preventing people from know YHWH
and His son Yeshua. Wake up sheep, otherwise you will find yourselves
On Yeshua’s heft hand side amongst the GOATS.
All of the true apostles letters were written to inform and the true
Believers of The Anti-Christ Saul/Paul’s blasphemies.
The book of “Revelations” is also full of blasphemies, inconsistencies
And LIES.
WAKE UP YOU DUMB SHEEP!!!
And get a better web hosting provider cause this one is about as useful as your “Pastors”…
See in the comments how ugly so called Christians are ? They like nothing better than beating each other to death with their new fangled bibles that are as phake as CC. Chuck states plainly in an interview that he isn’t going to allow some jerk like most of the commenters walk into a church he’s been building 20 years and develop a division and get him kicked as pastor. You think that’s bible there are plenty CCs around for you.