“For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.” — 2 Timothy 4:3-4
I recently heard someone lament that discernment reporters always trot out the same tired old Scripture verses to defend why they report all the negative things that today’s Bible teachers teach and do that aren’t lining up with Scripture. I thought it a strange thing, to tell Christians that using the Word of God as a basis for following His commands to be discerning and defend the true faith as being a bad thing.
When Jesus’ disciples asked Him what would be the signs they could look to as the end of the age, the first thing Jesus did was to warn them not to be deceived. (You can read about that here.) His words were to the believers and true followers. Yes, it seems that true Christians CAN be deceived, or Jesus wouldn’t have warned us to take care not to be.
Why do reporters write about those in our times who are twisting Scripture? Is it because we are hateful, or singularly focused on negative things? No. I believe that discerning Christians need to be Bereans to continually search Scriptures to make sure they are following the truth rather than what sounds almost true. But here’s the problem: They are not being taught how to do that by their leaders. Instead, their leaders are giving a nod of approval to false teachings and teachers.
The wolves of our day are often lifted high to celebrity status, and those who look to them are being bitten. These deceivers employ folks (as I was once employed), to generate headlines and social media events promoting their “brand” or vision instead of the Gospel. Millions of sheep around the world are being taken in, as their church leaders partner with these leaders and sell them a bill of goods in the form of popular paperbacks and feel-good conferences.
To those who ignore the warnings of Scripture, reporters like me are a clanging gong, a stench in their nostrils. They tell me they’d rather be known for what they are for, than against. (As if they should care about their image or of pleasing man.) I am not here to convince them of anything. Instead I hear the cries of their congregants who know that something is dreadfully wrong, and are being asked to leave their churches for daring to ask questions.
My reason for reporting these things is not to preach to the choir (I know you “get it,” and you’re not surprised). I love you guys, but the work I do is for those who are surprised and caught off guard. We can help some of them to understand this age of the great falling away Jesus spoke of, and snatch them away from the snares of the deceiver.
So I will unashamedly trot out the very Scriptures that God Himself gave all of us as commands to follow. These Scriptures are not tired, but tried and true:
Matthew 7:15-23 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. “You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits. Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?‘ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.’”
Matthew 24: 3-14; 24-25 “As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. (Vs. 24): For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. (25) Behold, I have told you in advance.”
2 Peter 2:1-3 “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.”
Romans 16:18 “For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.”
2 Corinthians 2:17 “Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, as those sent from God.”
2 Corinthians 11:13-15 “For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.”
1 Thessalonians 2:5 “You know we never used flattery, nor did we put on a mask to cover up greed–God is our witness.”
Acts 20:28-31 “Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.”
1 Timothy 6:5 “…and constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.”
Matthew 6:24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.”
Titus 1:7-11 “For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain.”
James 3: 1 “Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.”
Titus 2:1 “But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine.”
Galatians 1:6-9 “I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!”
1 Corinthians 5:11-13 “But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of a brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler-not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those on the outside. Remove the evil person from among you.”
Galatians 1:10 “Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.”
Titus 2:7-8 “…in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us.”
1 Thessalonians 5:21 “But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good…”
1 John 4:1 “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.”
2 Timothy 1:13-14 “Hold fast (retain) the pattern of sound words (doctrine) which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.”
2 Timothy 3:12-17 “Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings, which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith, which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.”
2 Timothy 4:1-4 “I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
2 Timothy 4:16 “Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.”
2 Thessalonians 2: 8-12 “Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.”
2 Thessalonians 2:15 “So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.”
1 Corinthians 16:13 “Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.”
2 John 1:7-11 “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.”
Jude 3 “Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.”
Amen Amy!
Dare we speak against one of these “anointed” heretics and Churchianity would see us dead. This is exactly as foretold, even those within our families will turn against us when we dare say scripture is the solemn truth. We are definitely living in the days of itching ears and false prophets.
…And even some of our Bibles are so corrupt, that many will be deceived by their choice of words and take the mark of the beast:
https://followingjesuschrist3.com/2016/09/05/the-mark-of-the-beast-a-warning/
A huge reason why they are able to twist scripture so well is because of the modern (per)versions of the bible. All modern translations (published after 1611) are based on the Alexandrian text which is corrupted. The Tyndale, Geneva and King James are taken from the Antioch Text (The textus receptus or Received Text) . I find it hard to trust anybody who thinks that all translations are ok and it doesn’t matter which version of the bible you read. go to http://av1611.com to read more on this subject.
So we are talking KJV only then?
http://www.kjvonly.org/james/may_great_inconsistency.htm
Which KJV is inspired, since it was revised four times, the last being in 1769?
What Bible would you recommend since before 1611 there was no Bible?
Did the apostle Paul use the KJV?
Why do KJV only advocates reject the apocrypha, since the original 1611 version contained the apocrypha?
The KJV comes from an unpolluted stream of Greek texts, one that flows from antioch, where believers were first called Christians. Coverdale, Tyndall, Wycliffe, the Matthews Bible, the Great Bible, the Geneva Bible and the KJV also used those manuscripts…which just so happen to agree with around 95% of all early NT manuscripts, including the very oldest…the Syrian Peshita, which dates to circa 157AD. Manny – wicked men put together the Greek manuscript that underpins all of the new versions. I challenge you to read my article and then click on the links I added at the end showing what was deleted out of the NIV, ESV and NKJV. The ESV is particularly grievous to me because it’s website says it builds off of the KJV…but it actually doesn’t, and uses the corrupt Alexandrian manuscripts put together by the occultists/catholic-loving//non-bible believing/infant baptism for salvation believing/ purgatory is real professing men…Westcott & Hort. I could go on and on. But please….read the short article linked below, along with the one I linked above showing that ALL of the new versions changed the location if the mark of the beast so that you will take it:
https://followingjesuschrist3.com/2015/10/24/the-bible-version-controversy-a-brief-history/
Just a few questions:
If God gave us the KJV as an inspired translation, why would God not repeat the process again in modern language in each language?
If God supervised the translation process so that the KJV is 100% error free, why did God not extend this supervision to the printers?
Why did the KJV translators use marginal note showing alternate translation possibilities? If the English of the KJV is inspired of God, there would be no alternates!
If the KJV translators were inspired of God in their work, why did they not know it?
Why were all the marginal notes and alternate readings removed from modern editions of the KJV, along with the Apocrypha, the opening Dedication to James I, and a lengthy introduction from “The Translators to the Reader.”?
When there is a difference between the KJV English and the TR Greek, why do you believe that the Greek was wrong and the KJV English is correct?
If the KJV-only supporters believe fully in the word-for-word inspiration of the KJV, why would italics be necessary?
In defending the KJV’s use of archaic language, do you really think it is a good thing that a person must use an Early Modern English dictionary just to understand the Bible in casual reading?
Why do KJV only advocates feel that all modern translations are wrong for copyrighting the work of each translation when they copyright the materials on their websites, tracts and books they use to promote the KJV? Do they not realize that after 100 years all books pass into public domain and that all copyrighted Bibles today will soon be public domain just like the KJV? If “God’s truth should not be copyrighted” then why do they copy write their defenses of God’s ultimate truth, the Bible?
Is it not ridiculous to suggest that when the TR disagrees with the KJV that Greek TR has errors, but the KJV doesn’t? Is this not the ultimate example of “translation worship”? (Reject the original in favour of the translation)
Did you know that the Textus Receptus, from which the KJV was translated, was based on half a dozen small manuscripts, none earlier than the 10th century?
If the Textus Receptus is the error free text, then why are the last 6 verses of Revelation absence from the TR, yet present in the KJV? Did you know that for these verses, the Latin Vulgate was translated into Greek which was then translated into English – a translation of a translation of a translation?
Why do KJV only advocates believe that the English of the KJV is clearer and more precise than the original Greek language manuscripts? Why should Bible students throw out their Greek dictionaries and buy an “archaic English” dictionary? Are there not word pictures in the original Greek words that the English cannot easily convey? (Jas 2:19 “tremble”; Greek: PHRISSO, indicates to be rough, to bristle. is a powerful word picture of how the demons are in such terror that their skin is rough with goose pimples. Also differences between “agape” and “phileo” love words.)
Why did the translators make mistakes in the chapter summaries in the 1611 version?
Wouldn’t God have inspired this as well? Why would God inspire the English providentially accurate, but then allow misleading chapter headings? (Every chapter of the Song of Songs is interpreted as descriptive of the church. This is wrong. SoS is God’s “mate selection manual.” Also, Isa 22 “He prophesieth Shebna’s deprivation, and Eliakim, prefiguring the kingdom of Christ, his substitution” This is wrong and reflect the incorrect theology of the day.)
Why would the translators use book headings like “The Gospel According to Saint Luke” since the Greek merely says “The Gospel According to Luke”. Does not this show that the translators were influenced by their contemporary theology and the Catholic false doctrine of “sainthood”?
Do KJV only advocates realize that they stand beside the Mormon church in that both groups believe that they were delivered an “inspired translation”? (Mormon’s believe Joseph Smith’s English translation of the Book of Mormon from the Nephi Plates was done under inspiration.) Do KJV only advocates realize that the most powerful and irrefutable evidence that neither were translated under inspiration, is the very first edition with all their thousands of errors? (KJV- 1611 edition; BoM- 1831 edition)
Do KJV only advocates realize that, to point out that all modern translations have the same kinds of mistakes we are accusing of the KJV, is irrelevant, because we maintain that all translations have errors and none were translated under the inspired supervision of God?
Why would the Holy Spirit mis-guide the translators to employ the use of mythical creatures like “unicorn” for wild ox, “satyr” for “wild goat”, “cockatrice” for common viper, when today we know what the real name of these creatures is?
If the KJV is error free in the English, then why did they fail to correctly distinguish between “Devil and Demons” (Mt 4:1-DIABOLOS and Jn 13:2-DAIMONIZOMAI) ; “hades and hell” (see Lk 16:23-HADES and Mt 5:22-GEENNA; Note: Hades is distinct from hell because hades is thrown into hell after judgement: Rev 20:14)
Why would KJV translators render Gen 15:6 which is quoted in identical Greek form by Paul in Rom 4:3, 9, 22; Gal 3:6, in FOUR DIFFERENT WAYS? Why are they creating distinctions were none exist?
Why did the KJV translators have no consistent rule for differentiating between the use of definite and indefinite articles? (Dan 3:25 we have one “like the Son of God” instead of “like a son of God”, even though in 28 Nebuchadnezzar states God sent “His angel” to deliver the men. The definite article was also added to the centurion’s confession in Mt 27:54.)
How can you accept that the Textus Receptus is perfect and error free when Acts 9:6 is found only in the Latin Vulgate but absolutely no Greek manuscript known to man? Further, how come in Rev 22:19 the phrase “book of life” is used in the KJV when absolutely ALL known Greek manuscripts read “tree of life”?
How can we trust the TR to be 100% error free when the second half of 1 Jn 5:8 are found only in the Latin Vulgate and a Greek manuscript probably written in Oxford about 1520 by a Franciscan friar named Froy (or Roy), who took the disputed words from the Latin Vulgate? (we are not disputing the doctrine of the trinity, just the validity of the last half of this verse)
How do you explain the grammatical error in the original 1611 KJV in Isa 6:2 where the translators made a rare grammatical error by using the incorrect plural form of “seraphims” rather than “seraphim”?
Must we possess a perfectly flawless bible translation in order to call it “the word of God”? If so, how do we know “it” is perfect? If not, why do some “limit” “the word of God” to only ONE “17th Century English” translation?
Where was “the word of God” prior to 1611? Did our Pilgrim Fathers have “the word of God” when they brought the GENEVA BIBLE translation with them to North America?
Were the KJV translators “liars” for saying that “the very meanest [poorest] translation” is still “the word of God”?
Do you believe that the Hebrew and Greek used for the KJV are “the word of God”?
Manny compare translations and see for yourself the differences. I never said only the KJV. If you read my comment I included Tyndale who was gifted by the Holy Ghost in languages. The Geneva which was brought over by the pilgrims. I said all versions after 1611 are from the wrong Greek manuscripts. Of course God inspires translators but so can Satan and when Westcott and Hort decided what should be removed from the scriptures that was not God!
Deuteronomy 4:2 KJV
[2] Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
Revelation 22:18-19 KJVS
[18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: [19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Westcott and Hort removed enough verses to equal the entire books of 1 and 2 Peter. And changed many others. The lie that they changed archaic words to make it more readable doesn’t hold up. If that is true then why change penny to denarius?
Matthew 20:2 KJV
[2] And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
Matthew 20:2 NASB
[2] When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard.
Everybody knows what a penny is and it is English. They took an English word that is not archaic or hard to understand and changed it back to a Greek word that nobody knows what it means without a footnote or commentary.
Anyway if you are this vehement to defend your modern translations I probably won’t change your mind with anything like evidence… And so I will not argue any more but instead pray the God will help you be willing to do some research and compare versions. You can do this at home yourself. Or you can utilize resources that are already researched like the link I posted in my first comment where he has put together comparison charts to show all the missing and changed verses. And the important doctrines that are compromised by them.
Shelli – at the end of my longer linked article I link charts showing the outrageous deletions from the NIV, NKJV and ESV. These people don’t want to hear it because the scholars who taught them are too smart to believe psalm 12:6 in the KJV – that God preserves his word forever. That verse was changed, not surprisingly. I didn’t want to hear it either…but the sword of truth led me to the KJV and now I realize that the subtle, unsound doctrine and outright lies woven into the new versions…are worth the fight. Thanks for joining the battle.
Sola, I was there too but thank God, He has revealed truth to me (just like He promises He will) and not without reason, He also gives us the courage to stand up for it! It is heartening to me to know that you are out there too, fighting the good fight and I praise God for people like you and pray that He will take the scales off of even more eyes! Amen!
What you say is true Shelli,
KJV is the best translation bar none.
Blessings:-}
Amen Sola Scriptura,
The agregious deletions and downright purposefully mistranslated words in the NIV, Living, etc…. are a stain in the churches that use them.
Thank you for spreading the word on these uninspired “bibles”.
Blessings:-}
The KJV isn’t error free but it uses the correct stream of Greek manuscripts. The Reina Valera in Spanish uses the same stream.
What matters is to study the issue and see the corrupt foundation of the new versions. It’s fun to throw out accusations…but study both sides. I was a huge NIV 84 guy and debated my wife for months. Then I saw the actual edits and studied the history of the manuscripts…and I knew I could never read a new version again. Please…read the two short articles linked above.
Good questions all, Manny,
But like Shelli said. You can read the link given and find out if these are answered there.
Not to mention the fact that when a much older manuscript was found at the caves of kumran, it matched almost verbatim with the ones used to translate the KJV.
Grant Jeffrey has a piece called “Extraordinary Evidence About Jesus In The Dead Sea Scrolls”. In it he writes that;
“The scholars discovered that the Hebrew manuscript copies of the most authoritative Hebrew text, Textus Recepticus, used by the KJV translators in 1611, were virtually identical to these ancient Dead Sea Scrolls. After carefully comparing the manuscripts they discovered that, aside from a tiny number of spelling variations, not a single word was altered from the original scrolls in the caves from the much copied AD 1100 manuscripts used by the authorized KJV translators in 1611.”
Manny, these scholars found no significant changes in the KJV from the much older manuscripts. But, when comparing the KJV to the other newer “bibles”, it becomes clear that there are agregious, purposeful errors. As Sola and Shelli expressed in their comments. Something definitely worth looking into with an objective mind.
Blessings:-}
P.S. Read my posts, never once did I throw out an accusation. I’m asking questions to ascertain why you both hold to your positions, there are arguement to both sides of the country.
Good discussion on the KJV translation… I use the Revised Version of 1881 (NT) and 1884 (OT). It takes the KJV and then corrects a lot of the errors that Manny has listed above. I find myself thanking God quite often for providing me with this Bible. I read a lot of books written in the late 1800s and early 1900s and these theologians were always quoting from the RV (and were thankful that these corrections to the AV were made), so I started looking for one, but they are extremely rare. I “just happened” to run into one when I was in a used Christian bookstore. I’ve never seen another one since.
Amy’s post is a good reminder. I agree with Sola and Shelli that the vast majority of modern translations are misleading to varying degrees, but if the problem with the pastor-teachers today is that they aren’t using the KJV, then why was Paul plagued by false teachers who had no NT at all? They were false because they had a false spirit, not a false translation.
I think the thing I want to communicate – and tried to on my links is that the Greek that underpins every single new version is corrupt, flowing from Philo’s gnostic school in Alexandria, Egypt in the 200’s, then to the vatican, and then to W&H, two men who didn’t even believe that Jesus was the atoning sacrifice for our sins. Every single new version has their Greek as a foundation. Then, when you review the charts showing departures from the Textus Receptus Greek, it is clear that unsound and catholic doctrine was added in, Jesus was downgraded, and sound doctrine was deleted out. This is no small thing. When the mark off the beast is totally different in the new versions, that means someone is trying to trick us into taking it. There can be no other legit answer.
berolac, so right and I didn’t mean to imply that I think the whole problem lies in the corrupt bible versions. What I thought I said was that it is a huge contributing factor and if I may add, that Satan uses these versions to twist scripture and then the preachers and teachers use them to (probably some of them unknowingly) to teach to the masses. I agree that they are false because they have a false spirit and that is exactly who Westcott and Hort were.
I also used to study from the RV but since learning what I have about this issue I have made comparisons and I must reject that version as well. let me give an example of why… compare Daniel 3:25
Dan 3:25 KJV He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
Dan 3:25 RSV He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the aspect of the fourth is like a son of the gods.
my RSV is the 1901 edition, What does yours say? And if this is one of the corrections you mentioned I think they did a poor job of correcting the so called mistakes. imho
This is only one verse but it is a huge issue and actually seems to be the crux of what the Westcott and Hort Greek manuscripts were trying to remove. There is too much of a difference between “the Son of God” and “a son of the gods.” for me to continue to use the RSV as anything but a reference for comparison.
God bless you.
Hey Shelli, two things: one, there is a difference between the RV and the RSV. The RV (Revised Version, an update to the Authorized Version of 1611) was first put forth in 1881 (NT) and 1884 (OT), but without OT marginal notes. Neither the OT nor the NT was published in America with marginal notes until sometime after 1898. So, you have one of the earliest printings as do I. The RSV (Revised Standard Version), on the other hand, began to be translated and published (it was published in sections) in 1946. Thus, the RV and the RSV are two different Bible versions and are not to be mistaken one for the other.
Second, as to Daniel 3:25, my RV says the same as yours. Notice 3:28, though, where it refers to this same “son” as “angel” in the KJV (as well as the RV). Both of these utterances were from Nebuchadnezzar, who did not recognize THE Son of God, but only one like a son of the gods; that is, an angel. Also, this same “angel” (mal’ak in Aramaic) is used again in Daniel 6:22, but this time, Daniel is speaking, so even he recognizes his God as sending an angel (albeit, to the lions’ den, not the fiery furnace). Whether this angel is, indeed, Christ our Lord is debatable. We do have Christophanies in the OT and this may be one of those times, but the translators did not find incontrovertible proof of this in Daniel 3:25, so went with the original Aramaic “son of the gods.”
Compare this with Daniel 7:13, where “son” is “bar” in Aramaic (same as in Daniel 3:25), but now we have “son of man,” not son of god (or gods). The narrative in verses 13 and 14 following the reference to the Son of Man leaves us no doubt that it is referring to Yeshua Messiah, the only One Who will have an everlasting Kingdom. Therefore, here the translators make the decision to definitely identify “son of man” as THE Son of Man. Compare this to Daniel 8:17, where, writing in Hebrew, God refers to Daniel as “son of man.” The context determines the proper translation; we know Daniel is not THE Son of Man. (See also Ezekiel as “ben adam,” “son of man.”) Likewise, the translators chose not to identify the son of God (or gods) as THE Son of God due to the definite use of “angel” on two other occasions. It was too ambiguous to definitely state “Son of God.”
berlorlac,
Thanks for that, I see what you are saying but there are still many more discrepancies between the RV, and the KJV and the RSV and the KJV. I find it interesting that 1881 is also the year that Westcott and Hort published their Greek New Testament with their favored manuscripts being the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. But I am not trying to convince you. If you are ok with the differences that is between you and God.
peace to you
Shelli, remember that the NT update in the RV was begun in 1870. So, they spent 11 years painstakingly going through the AV before publishing their Revision. They didn’t use W&H as it was not yet in existence.
Peace in Christ, sister…
Amen Shelli,
That pretty much sums it up. God will work in the individual to bring them to the truth if they are willing. A mistranslation can hinder our growth, but nothing can keep us from the love of God when we truly trust in Him.
Blessings:-}
Ps The thing I find really encouraging is that the word of God is the final say and not some religion or authority figure or how one feels about it. I praise God for that in all who write and comment here.
The RV is atrocious. It is the first English version using Westcott & Hort’s new, corrupt, Catholic leaning, Jesus and sin minimizing, Greek text.
Good afternoon everyone,
So where does one get a 1611KJV? Or where does one get an untainted bible? And which edition? I’m not being facetious, there are many in my camp, I’ve been using a NKJV, but I’m trying to be a good Berean! Any and all suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks Shelli, Sola Scriptura, Ed and of course B!
Manny if you would visit the site that I provided a link to in my first comment you would find answers to many if not all of the questions you have asked. I personally have an Allan long primer KJV that is printed in Scotland from the Cambridge printing block authorized by the Crown of England. Unfortunately it does have marginal notes and cross references that are influenced by these modern textual critics. But scripturally it agrees with the online text of the AV1611 that you can find a link to download at AV1611.com. If you are really looking for answers they can be found. I don’t have them all but I know somebody who does and He promised that if we seek Him with all of our hearts we will find Him. Peace
Manny – you obviously didn’t read my links, above, but here is why the NKJV is an intentionally false Bible. Among other things, repentance was deleted out 44 times ( now who would do such a thing??) and the blood of Christ 11 times. See the text below.
http://www.kjv1611.org.uk/NKJV%20Omissions.htm
Manny – you obviously didn’t read my links, above, but here is why the NKJV is an intentionally false Bible. Among other things, repentance was deleted out 44 times ( now who would do such a thing??) and the blood of Christ 11 times. See the text below.
(It wouldn’t let me post the link. It’s also at the end of my bible version controversy article)
Sola, the RV is NOT the same as the RSV. They are two completely different Bibles. I agree, the RSV is bad. As I told Shelli, the RV NT began to be undertaken in 1870. It was finished in 1881. The OT committee finished their work in 1884. It was not based on W&H. The RV is an update on the AV of 1611; it relies on same translations that the AV used in 1611. It has nothing to do with W&H.
Would you all recommend this bible?
http://www.thekjvstore.com/1611-edition-kjv-bible-hendrickson.html?gclid=CPLBgLXP_s4CFY5bhgodC-IEmA
I recommend any KJV over the modern translations including the NKJV. Even a cheap KJV from Walmart is better than any of the newer versions. But they are even getting harder to find. I went into my local Christian book store recently and found that the KJV is being phased out in favor of the newer versions and especially the awful ESV. Where there used to be two sections (about 12 shelves ) dedicated to KJV there is now one at the back and bottom. And they were nearly empty. Used book stores are probably best for older KJV bibles or printing houses like “church bible publishers.” This one you linked to would be interesting for comparison to newer printings to see what, if any, changes have been made.
Thanks Shelli I’ll get one in the next day or so, I’ll post any differences you’d like to know, just post what verse you’d like to compare, I will compare it to my NKJV too.
Shelli, I bit the bullet I just bought bible, should have it in about a week, I’ll compare to my NKJV and post.
Manny,
good on you! There is one thing I want to point out about the Av 1611 and the Apocrypha being included in it. The KJV translators did not consider it to be scripture and you can tell that because they did not incorporate the apocryphal books into the other books of the Bible that they did consider to be part of the canon. But they included it because it had some value to the reader as extra biblical information, which is why they put in in between the two testaments in the same way as maps and charts are included in the center or the back of the book to separate them from the actual scripture. There are many resources on this subject such as the website I already cited but here is one more. http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Apocrypha-Books/ Brother I am praying for you and all believers that God will help you and me not be deceived in these last days.
Shelli,
Thank you for the encouragement, I look forward in anticipation to dig into The Word! We are living in very, very dark days, unlike any before them. It’s my opinion this smoke and mirrors society we live in is under a great delusion, the biggest red flag is the utter apostasy working its way through Christendom. The rank apostasy in professing Christianity grows by the day and so many misguided Christians are expecting politics to come up with a solution. I use to read and post over at Stand Up For The Truth, that’s where I “met” Amy, she left and it went downhill, now it breaks my heart to even visit. Maranatha sister, one day we will all sit and discuss this under our Lord’s feet, that will be the most glorious time!
Amen to that! Looking forward to it and from all the signs I hope it won’t be long! God Bless!